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[VGTech] Marvel's Avengers PS5 vs Xbox Series X vs Xbox Series S Frame Rate Comparison

VFXVeteran

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It's not that i think they said that, they really did say that. If you want to know, search on YouTube DF interview with blue point dev.
I heard it many times. But I don't think they said it in the context of their game. You can interpret that they did say that, but you can also interpret it the way I do. We'll see if they contact me.
 

Rea

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They could use slow HDD on something with much more VRAM. The fast SSD is needed because of other deficiencies. Get rid of those and it's not required. (For fidelity)
Vram is not unlimited and expensive to have more, by using SSd you can pull data anytime you want from the storage at very high speed, ps5 can pull data from ssd within a few milli seconds. So devs can up the details, i don't know how PC will solve this problem on slow HDD, virtual 8k texturing in nanite is also benefit from fast SSD.
 
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Vram is not unlimited and expensive to have more, by using SSd you can pull data anytime you want from the storage at very high speed, ps5 can pull data from ssd within a few milli seconds. So devs can up the details, i don't know how PC will solve this problem on slow HDD, virtual 8k texturing in nanite is also benefit from fast SSD.
Easy. Don't allow game to work on spinner. Again these things only benefit from fast SSD because of other deficiencies. Fast SSD is not required. A high end PC with a slower SSD could run any ps5 game better then a ps5 assuming it was made for that spec.
 

Rea

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Nope, they never said that. He also says that they could technically do this on a PS4.
Omg, you're being ignorant. Or you need to check your hearing.

 

Bernd Lauert

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Omg, you're being ignorant. Or you need to check your hearing.

Thanks for confirming what I said, I guess. They're still using a chunking system, just as they would use it for the PS4. The chunks are just more detailed and need less time to load on PS5, so can they be more aggressive with the loading (no need for elevator scenes or long empty hallways or stupid animations or loading screens). Nothing they said implies that the game is constantly streaming geometry data at 9 GB/s.
 
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Rea

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Easy. Don't allow game to work on spinner. Again these things only benefit from fast SSD because of other deficiencies. Fast SSD is not required. A high end PC with a slower SSD could run any ps5 game better then a ps5 assuming it was made for that spec.
We'll wait and see. Pc with high end graphics card with ssd will always outperform ps5.
 
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MonarchJT

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Vram is not unlimited and expensive to have more, by using SSd you can pull data anytime you want from the storage at very high speed, ps5 can pull data from ssd within a few milli seconds. So devs can up the details, i don't know how PC will solve this problem on slow HDD, virtual 8k texturing in nanite is also benefit from fast SSD.
cmon we are in 2021 we was talking about a very normal but already obsolete sam 870 ssd type of memory not an hdd 1) People should understand that devs can hide data loads (practical example the transition tunnel in the new Ratchet & Clank) 2) that you have to understand the amount of data you are talking about before drawing hasty conclusions. We talk about GB and GB of data and 8k textures as if a gpu could grind any data thrown at it or as if the fact that the ssd could stream can directly change the final performance of the gpu. The final limit of the story will always remain the gpu at least for the moment and 'so. The results of the comparison of this thread already show it abundantly. Of course there are devs that know how to use the same resource (power) to show better and nicer things but the story has not changed, albeit due to the deficit in teraflops that Sony had due to the marketing department it had to try to change the cards on the table by pushing the ssd novel
 
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Rea

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The chunks are just more detailed and need less time to load on PS5, so can they be more aggressive with the loading
That's what I've been saying, wtf. Those small bits of chunks are heavily detail due to aggressive streaming of textures and polygon throughput, if it were on ps4 they won't be able to stream aggressively and those chunks won't looks as good.
 

Rea

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cmon we are in 2021 we was talking about a very normal and already obsolete sam 870 ssd type of memory. 1) People should understand that devs can hide data loads (practical example the transition tunnel in the new Ratchet & Clank) 2) that you have to understand the amount of data you are talking about before drawing hasty conclusions. We talk about GB and GB of data and 8k textures as if a gpu could grind any data thrown at it or as if the fact that the ssd could stream can directly change the final performance of the gpu. The final limit of the story will always remain the gpu at least for the moment and 'so. The results of the comparison of this thread already show it abundantly
I'm not saying it only depends on SSD, but SSd helps gpu in a way. Depending on game designs and game engines, can you imagine how the game will look when dev only need to optimise 3090 with PS5 SSD and its IO acceleration?
 
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Bernd Lauert

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That's what I've been saying, wtf. Those small bits of chunks are heavily detail due to aggressive streaming of textures and polygon throughput, if it were on ps4 they won't be able to stream aggressively and those chunks won't looks as good.
If that's what you meant, then it's fine. To me it sounded like you meant that the geometry details are getting streamed in all the time (like with the UE5 demo).
 

MonarchJT

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I'm not saying it only depends on SSD, but SSd helps gpu in a way. Depending on game designs and game engines, can you imagine how the game will look when dev only need to optimise 3090 with PS5 SSD and its IO acceleration?
of course it help but my point was that there's a limit in the usefulness of the ability to stream data if the gpu cannot keep up with the rest of the system.
And do you know what's left of the superfluous speed? exactly that ... just faster loading times.
 
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DaGwaphics

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Vram is not unlimited and expensive to have more, by using SSd you can pull data anytime you want from the storage at very high speed, ps5 can pull data from ssd within a few milli seconds. So devs can up the details, i don't know how PC will solve this problem on slow HDD, virtual 8k texturing in nanite is also benefit from fast SSD.

On PC, you can offset all SSD advantages with a huge amount of system memory. A typical DDR4 memory setup will be 8x faster moving data to VRAM than the SSD in the PS5. The issue is how long is that load time to get that data into system memory. LOL
 
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Rea

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On PC, you can offset all SSD advantages with a huge amount of system memory. A typical DDR4 memory setup will be 8x faster moving data to VRAM than the SSD in the PS5. The issue is how long is that load time to get that data into system memory. LOL
If it's still using HDD it will be forever. Like i said, 3090 with fast SSD will outperform 3090 with HDD.
 

MonarchJT

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If it's still using HDD it will be forever. Like i said, 3090 with fast SSD will outperform 3090 with HDD.
the problem is that you talking of an ssd that outperform most of pc ssd's paired with a gpu (the ps5 one) that is not even on par with a 2080 you get what's the story here ?
 
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Rea

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If that's what you meant, then it's fine. To me it sounded like you meant that the geometry details are getting streamed in all the time (like with the UE5 demo).
Not like the UE5 demo due to having different engines, but the streaming of textures and dynamic tessellation is happening in real time and it is constantly doing that whenever your character is moving or turning around.
 

Bernd Lauert

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Not like the UE5 demo due to having different engines, but the streaming of textures and dynamic tessellation is happening in real time and it is constantly doing that whenever your character is moving or turning around.
Okay I understand. So you're still wrong. This isn't happening in Demon's Souls.
 
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Rea

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the problem is that you talking of an ssd that outperform most of pc ssd's paired with a gpu (the ps5 one) that is not even on par with a 2080 you get what's the story here ?
Not sure i get what you meant. Pc gonna have SSd that will outperform PS5's one anyway. PC master race will spend more and they will have more superior to consoles anyway.
 

Shmunter

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I think it's one of those open phrases where people who want it to mean one thing hear it that way. I'm with you. They very clearly said it's loaded in chunks.
Sure, as you turn a corner etc. it’s fast enough to bring it all in on demand, freeing memory allowing for higher fidelity in the scene.

This is precisely what I it should be. Was there something else that was expected from secondary storage?

The faster the memory subsystem, the faster you can change the content of ram and all the benefits that entails. It’s not magical, never was.
 

Panajev2001a

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On PC, you can offset all SSD advantages with a huge amount of system memory. A typical DDR4 memory setup will be 8x faster moving data to VRAM than the SSD in the PS5. The issue is how long is that load time to get that data into system memory. LOL
Also CPU and/or GPU overhead in transferring all that data and decompressing it or again require a lot more bandwidth and memory to store it uncompressed...
 
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Sure, as you turn a corner etc. it’s fast enough to bring it all in on demand, freeing memory allowing for higher fidelity in the scene.

This is precisely what I it should be. Was there something else that was expected from secondary storage?

The faster the memory subsystem, the faster you can change the content of ram and all the benefits that entails. It’s not magical, never was.
Yes but people take it as without ps5 SSD this wouldn't be possible but it's more of on ps5 without fast SSD this wouldn't be possible. They are very different statements.
 

Shmunter

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Yes but people take it as without ps5 SSD this wouldn't be possible but it's more of on ps5 without fast SSD this wouldn't be possible. They are very different statements.
Streaming is not new, tech exists for generations. Just as gpu’s are not new. Yet the old makes way for the new. Faster, better, stronger - new possibilities.

The crux of the matter is that everything computing has been evolving....except for the secondary storage baseline being completely stagnant.

For the first time we have an exponential jump in streaming capability which in turn opens up new avenues.

So In summary; the DS devs here have exploited that streaming speed to increase scene detail by increasing asset quality. This level of quality would be out of reach on e.g a PS4. Other devs may harness it differently, like UE5 with the micro polygons constantly being pushed in and out of ram.

A whole new paradigm in engine design is waiting to be explored.
 
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Rea

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Okay I understand. So you're still wrong. This isn't happening in Demon's Souls.
What do you mean I'm wrong, lol. I'm just repeating what blue point dev has said.
Virtual texturing, texture streaming and tessellation are not new. It's exist even in ps4, what i meant is that they up the resolution of those textures streaming in ram due to ssd streaming speed.
 
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Streaming is not new, tech exists for generations. Just as gpu’s are not new. Yet the old makes way for the new. Faster, better, stronger - new possibilities.

The crux of the matter is that everything computing has been evolving....except for the secondary storage baseline being completely stagnant.

For the first time we have an exponential jump in streaming capability which I turn opens up new avenues.

So In summary; the DS devs here have exploited that streaming speed to increase scene detail by increasing asset quality. This level of quality would be out of reach on e.g a PS4. Other devs may harness it differently, like UE5 with the micro polygons constantly being pushed in and out of ram.

A whole new paradigm in engine design is waiting to be explored.
Pretty sure we would be at a better place if the PS4 and xb1 had "slow" SSDs in 2013.
Also I know it's not new. I'm saying there is a big difference between without this super fast SSD this wouldn't be possible and without this super fast SSD this wouldn't be possible on ps5.
 

Bernd Lauert

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What do you mean I'm wrong, lol. I'm just repeating what blue point dev has said.
Virtual texturing, texture streaming and tessellation are not new. It's exist even in ps4, what i meant is that they up the resolution of those textures streaming in ram due to ssd streaming speed.
Bruh you're saying that when you stand in an empty corridor in DeS, turning around by 180 degrees will stream in the other half of the corridor. That's just wrong.
 
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Wtf, they said that all the textures details and tessellations are streaming as you are turning around. You don't understand what you're saying.
Tessellation doesn't "stream" it's done on the GPU to add model details in real time (to save on the need to stream assets).

The point of the streaming speeds is to avoid the need for tessellation and other "fake" details.
They could use slow HDD on something with much more VRAM. The fast SSD is needed because of other deficiencies. Get rid of those and it's not required. (For fidelity)
With enough VRAM you could load complete games in memory. Seriously, what you say is technically true, but there is a point where it becomes unpractical, the loading times for a game that needs 50GB for a given area are going to be atrocious on a 200MB/sec HDD, or a 533MB/sec SATA SSD (assuming that there is no need to stop for processing).

Now how much data would you need to precache for a game where the gameplay is open ended, if you want the exact same experience?
Nope, they never said that. He also says that they could technically do this on a PS4.
It's a PS3 game at its core, the PS4 could very well have gotten an improved remake, not as extensive as the one we got, but a game that has the same gameplay elements would certainly be possible on the PS4.

I'm never sure what people argue about with the dark souls remake.
 
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Tessellation doesn't "stream" it's done on the GPU to add model details in real time (to save on the need to stream assets).

The point of the streaming speeds is to avoid the need for tessellation and other "fake" details.

With enough VRAM you could load complete games in memory. Seriously, what you say is technically true, but there is a point where it becomes unpractical, the loading times for a game that needs 50GB for a given area are going to be atrocious on a 200MB/sec HDD, or a 533MB/sec SATA SSD (assuming that there is no need to stop for processing).
Yes that's why I included (for fidelity).
All I'm saying is people take these quotes to mean not possible without but they actually mean not possible without on this exact box.
 
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Rea

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Bruh you're saying that when you stand in an empty corridor in DeS, turning around by 180 degrees will stream in the other half of the corridor. That's just wrong.
Believe what you wanna Believe bruh, we should agree to disagree and move on. Wait for the answer of blue point dev from VFXVeteran. I may be wrong or may be right.
 

Rea

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Tessellation doesn't "stream" it's done on the GPU to add model details in real time (to save on the need to stream assets).

The point of the streaming speeds is to avoid the need for tessellation and other "fake" details.
Thx for correction. I Appreciate it.
 
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DJ12

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Not like the UE5 demo due to having different engines, but the streaming of textures and dynamic tessellation is happening in real time and it is constantly doing that whenever your character is moving or turning around.

It's not as if what you are saying hasn't been discussed, bar the tessellation.

Some people are just in denial, leave them to their delusions.
 
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Sure, as you turn a corner etc. it’s fast enough to bring it all in on demand, freeing memory allowing for higher fidelity in the scene.

This is precisely what I it should be. Was there something else that was expected from secondary storage?

The faster the memory subsystem, the faster you can change the content of ram and all the benefits that entails. It’s not magical, never was.


Sounds familiar.



So when I talked about the dream of an SSD part of the reason for that 5 gigabytes a second target was to eliminate loads, but also part of the reason for that target was streaming as in what if the SSD is so fast that as the player is turning around. It's possible to load textures for everything behind the player in that split second.

Essentially it's what the developers are saying is happening in Demon Souls. True you can apply the same tactics to HDDs but since they are slow there's less data that you can stream in the same amount of time. Instead of just streaming in what you see you might have to stream the whole house in. And to do that you need to make the file size smaller which means inferior textures and other things.
 
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Rea

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Sounds familiar.





Essentially it's what the developers are saying is happening in Demon Souls. True you can apply the same tactics to HDDs but since they are slow there's less data that you can stream in the same amount of time. Instead of just streaming in what you see you might have to stream the whole house in. And to do that you need to make the file size smaller which means inferior textures and other things.
Thank you my man, i was saying exactly this, Demon's souls game engine is not the same as UE5. They are streaming high resolution textures as the player moving or turning around. And it is streaming constantly.
 
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Thank you my man, i was saying exactly this, Demon's souls game engine is not the same as UE5. They are streaming high resolution textures as the player moving or turning around. And it is streaming constantly.

Alot of people like to throw shade at Cerny but what hes saying can be applied to any system with an extremely efficient I/O. People shouldn't be mad at him when he says this because this is something that we can see on other systems. I know on paper the competitions I/O is slower but it's still capable of doing this. To what extent still needs to be seen though.
 
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Rea

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Alot of people like to throw shade at Cerny but what hes saying can be applied to any system with an extremely efficient I/O. People shouldn't be mad at him when he says this because this is something that we can see on other systems. I know on paper the competitions I/O is slower but it's still capable of doing this. To what extent still needs to be seen though.

The slower one has to compromise what data needs to be in ram at any given time. The faster one can be more aggressive at what data can you put in ram.
 
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The slower one has to compromise what data needs to be in ram at any given time. The faster one can be more aggressive at what data can you put in ram.

With one system you only need the next second of gameplay in ram while with the other you need the next 30 seconds. basically another way to say what your saying and think Cerny said something like that.
 
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Rea

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With one system you only need the next second of gameplay in ram while with the other you need the next 30 seconds. basically another way to say what your saying and think Cerny said something like that.
For example, Xbox SSD and PS5, due to their differences in speed and priority levels, the amount of data inside the ram of each console will also be different, at any given time. It may also affect the fidelity of the game. My guess is that Xbox games gonna have higher native res but with lower polygons and lower texture, PS5 with lower native res but higher polygons counts with high res textures. I doubt that 3rd party devs will make full use of that, they will prioritize the slowest denominator and call it a day. As always only Sony's studio gonna make full use of the hardware down to the metal.

Edit: i mean xbox will also have high res textures but load slower.
 
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For example, Xbox SSD and PS5, due to their differences in speed and priority levels, the amount of data inside the ram of each console will also be different, at any given time. It may also affect the fidelity of the game. My guess is that Xbox games gonna have higher native res but with lower polygons and lower texture, PS5 with lower native res but higher polygons counts with high res textures. I doubt that 3rd party devs will make full use of that, they will prioritize the slowest denominator and call it a day. As always only Sony's studio gonna make full use of the hardware down to the metal.

Well maybe the Unreal Engine 5 will allow that to happen. Should be easier for third parties to take advantage of the PS5 with that engine.

But I do agree with you that it will be 1st parties that will make the most of it.
 
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Shmunter

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For example, Xbox SSD and PS5, due to their differences in speed and priority levels, the amount of data inside the ram of each console will also be different, at any given time. It may also affect the fidelity of the game. My guess is that Xbox games gonna have higher native res but with lower polygons and lower texture, PS5 with lower native res but higher polygons counts with high res textures. I doubt that 3rd party devs will make full use of that, they will prioritize the slowest denominator and call it a day. As always only Sony's studio gonna make full use of the hardware down to the metal.

Edit: i mean xbox will also have high res textures but load slower.
Ps can certainly have higher quality textures, but not necessarily more complex polygons. It may be a matter that within a scene PS5 has 10 different cars, vs XsX having 2 x 5 of the same car model. Same scene rendering complexity but less variety, reuse of assets in ram vs ability to dedicate more ram to different assets due to less buffer requirements.
 
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Rea

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Ps can certainly have higher quality textures, but not necessarily more complex polygons. It may be a matter that within a scene PS5 has 10 different cars, vs XsX having 2 x 5 of the same car model. Same scene rendering complexity but less variety, reuse of assets in ram vs ability to dedicate more ram to different assets due to less buffer requirements.

PS5's 10 different cars might not be the same polygons count and I'm not sure this is how it works. If ps5 has 10 different cars, xbox also will have 10 different cars, but those cars on xbox might have low res textures loaded first and then high res will come in later. But xbox will have slightly higher native resolution than ps5. Both consoles have different architecture and different philosophy in mind when designing. You can't compare apples to apples. For the most part they will perform the same, one might have slight edge than on the other.
Depending on the game engine.
 
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Shmunter

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PS5's 10 different cars might not be the same polygons count and I'm not sure this is how it works. If ps5 has 10 different cars, xbox also will have 10 different cars, but those cars on xbox might have low res textures loaded first and then high res will come in later. But xbox will have slightly higher native resolution than ps5. Both consoles have different architecture and different philosophy in mind when designing. You can't compare apples to apples. For the most part they will perform the same, one might have slight edge than on the other.
Depending on the game engine.
Point being, that both gpu’s have a ceiling to how much scene complexity they can render.

Obviously PS5 can’t render twice the polygons that XsX can, the GPU would need to be twice as accomplished.

It can be assumed the gpu’s are reasonably close, the difference being that the ssd stream capability offers PS5 more available GPU ram, not performance.

Rendering 2 cars to the screen is the same GPU load, but fitting 2 ‘different’ cars in ram is the difference.
 
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