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Visual Downgrade In Next-Gen Tech Demos Going From PC To Consoles?
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
It's not. It's simply a different argument entirely.Gemüsepizza;75815039 said:
We have 2 arguments about graphics, one between the consoles and one between the (better) console version and PC. In one case, the impact of the differences is apparently huge and needs to be examined under a magnifying glass in 30 thread pages. In the other case, the difference actually is huge, but is often considered negligible or insignificant. That is the double standard.
If you were discussing performance/dollar or something like that, it may be different, but that's usually not the basis of these discussions.
It's basically a continuous goalpost rotation at this point.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Because more games on PS3 support 7.1 surround than on PC? And what if your surround solution has not HDMI input? On a console this is not a problem, as they support Dolby TruHD and DTS-HD Master Audio (and output via optical cable).
We don't have to. Because it is painfully obvious that a system that costs considerably more will offer more performance.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Amazing how you ignored / did not quote my last sentence. Fact: Most PCs do not use HDMI but DVI / VGA. Which means they can't use HDMI in the first place. Which wouldn't help them much in the first place if they were using a typical surround solution for PCs without HDMO input. This means they need to output their surround signals in Dolby Digital or DTS. Which is not supported by Windows out of the box.
I never rented games, and renting games without even having control over which games I get seems like an even worse deal.
I also like how you provide the price per month but the number of games per year. You truly are a master.
Dictator93
Member
I do like your perspective on the PS3... thing was just strange.
Without arguing for a moment... how does the "free game" stuff work on PS4 at launch? The library will not exactly be huge.. which games will be "free" for PS+ users?
Gemüsepizza
Member
So you buy your games at Steam, so you have control over them, right? Got it.
It was an example of how easy it is to get surround sound from a console, and I was so specific because almost all modern consoles are using HDMI. This is not the case with PCs, like I have explained, which means most users will have experience problems with surround sound if they don't know exactly what they are doing.
Gemüsepizza;75815503 said:
I think you need to stop using the word "fact" - especially when talking about pcs in the context of gaming (certainly business pcs are overwhelmingly VGA or dvi but we aren't talking about those).
If you're plugging it into your amp, you're doing so via hdmi. Like every other device. If you want to argue semantics, many sound cards (on board or dedicated) support 5.1 spdif encoding with one or both of those.
But you wouldn't need to consider that unless your amp is too old for hdmi. The modern PC works exactly the same as the modern day console. Select 7.1 in settings, click ok, and most of your games are playing in 7.1. For reference, I just completed half life *1* with 7.1 audio.
Absolutely. Not because of Steam, but because of PC. In the hypothetical scenario that Valve shuts down, I'll apply a crack to the games with DRM in one minute and continue playing them. Being independent of any corporation's whims is what it means to have control.Gemüsepizza;75815659 said:
When PSN shuts down (which seems at least equally (un)likely) you are fucked.
And of course, not every game on PC has DRM in the first place. I'm currently very much enjoying the fantastic Divinity: Dragon Commander, which is completely DRM free on all distribution platforms.
Console fans just want their console to be better than the other console. That's why the small differences between consoles are way more important to them than the big difference between consoles and PCs.
Gemüsepizza
Member
No, like I have pointed out, modern PCs do NOT work like consoles, because you need an additional sound card which supports encoding your uncompressed PCM surround into Dolby Digital or DTS when you don't have HDMI output (which is very common) / or a PC surround solution with HDMI input, for example a sound card which supports Dolby Digitial Live.
So you have ALL your games installed on your PC, so that it won't hurt you if Valve suddenly had to shutdown?
They just change the ToS and if you don't agree you lose access to every game you ever purchased on the service.
This after-the-fact change is obviously preferable to the stated terms before you sign with PS+ and you're reminded of with every single purchase as they inform you with an extra info-pop-up every time you download a PS+ item.
Dictator93
Member
Gemüsepizza;75815903 said:
Pretty sure Valve has a secure plan actually in the event of Steam coming offline for people to get their games. I can find the evidence of this if you wish.
edit: Here it is
Valve can be assholes like every other company. I hope the TOS change and the ability to sell games is completely n´knocked down in German and then subsequently EU courts.
how are you not fucked if steam collapses? where exactly will you download all your games from? will you just have terabytes of data stored away in case you want to play certain games? or will you torrent the games?
"measures" is extremely vague, and no company, and i dont care what they promise, will leave thousands of servers running indefinitely just so you can download your games whenever you want.
Not really for that reason, since I don't actually fear that possibility at this moment, but yes, I have pretty much all games installed. Primarily because of convenience, and of course because storage capacity on PC is so incredibly cheap.Gemüsepizza;75815903 said:
My Steam folder is on an entirely separate HDD dedicated to this purpose and is currently around 500 GB.
However, even if that were not the case, Steam would somehow shut down without warning and I would miss a game I own I'd just download it -- that is entirely compatible with my ethics. Again, true control is being independent of a corporation's whims. Only an open platform makes that truly possible.
See above. I actually do have all the data stored away, since it is more convenient than not having that, but I also see nothing at all wrong with downloading the games I own if I can no longer access them.
Gemüsepizza;75815903 said:
Ok now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If your amp is too old to support hdmi, you're correct. You need to spend the extra 15 dollars on your motherboard to have the sound chip with the encoding licenses. If you're going to use the PC to game on your comfy couch with your 7.1 entertainment centre (as per your example as a "console advantage"), however, it works exactly the same way. Hdmi cable into amp, click 7.1, and it's the same.
Absolutely. Trusting companies is folly, but I can see no possible universe in which this can be spun as anything but a glowing endorsement of open platforms.
I have over 200 games on steam at this point, and i certainly am not going to store all the data away, also, would you also be ok with downloading games from other console and emulating them on pc? i dont see much difference between the two.
Dictator93
Member
Even if Valve would not hold to their word (would not be surprising for a company to do that).. you could happily expect class action law suits or people just downloading their games from other sources. I think that would be ethically sound.
Very well said. There's constant preaching and chest beating from a few over cocky Sony fans in the X1-PS4 threads. So many positive X1 threads have been ruined by these jokers its sickening. If you champion superior specs in a gaming thread then you dont run and backpeddle when PC is mentioned then. Thats just weak and a serious double standard indeed.
CerebralTiger
Member
A watered down version of Drive Club is going to be available during the first month. I get the feeling this may become a trend with other PS4 games on PS+.
oh i agree entirely, i wasn't arguing against open platforms,i have always been a pc gamer first and foremost, just that i see no real difference between steam and the consoles
I would be okay with that, but consoles becoming more and more DRM-laden with each new generation, with layers upon layers of encryption built into hardware and software, makes this path likely to be nonviable for anything beyond the PS2 generation.
And of course, you still need a PC or other open platform to run your emulator
The major difference, in my eyes, is that Steam runs on an open platform, which makes it possible to easily circumvent it if required to protect you as a consumer (or just to make a mod you really want to make!).
You don't have that on consoles, where everything from the hardware up is proprietary and locked to one single corporation.
That was a scummy move, but I've never had a game removed from my Steam library for any reason and neither has the vast majority of Steam users. It's still preferable to losing access to games you paid for (you're still paying for the "free" PS+ games) no matter how upfront Sony is about it.
Only since February 2013 with a very limited selection of games.
That's not what most people on this forum mean when they talk about Steam though.
Unless they trade their device in or it breaks out of warranty they don't lose anything.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Or if you have a PC surround system with optical input from for example Logitech, which you have to use because your PC screen only has DVI. And where exactly are those offers you are describing?
I never said anything about "comfy couch gaming". Of course this is possible when you use your TV as screen and if your receiver supports HDMI and uncompressed audio. But how many PC gamers use their TV as a screen? With a console you don't have problems with *any* sound systems. It works with optical / HDMI etc out of the box. With a PC you need to have a very specific setup to not have problems.
We've had this argument before. Windows -- prior to 8 -- compared to a console, is "open" for all intents and purposes.
You can download and run any binary, and it does not need to be signed by anyone. In practical terms, that's what makes a platform open. It's sadly not open in a more inclusive sense like Linux is, but as you say, they are working on that.
However, it is practical openness which allows all the advantages of such openness, such as unintended mods (e.g. DSFix) or circumventing DRM when it is restricting your rights as a consumer.
To my knowledge they still have to pay for PS+ to maintain this "library" of their soon-to-be outdated console, is this not correct?
You have to have an active subscription to retain access to the free of charge PS+ games you got.
When they don't feel like playing these games any more and they don't own another PlayStation Plus compatible device where they decide they get value out of it they can stop paying and letting it lapse.
If they ever feel like playing the older titles again, they just pay again for the time they require and access to all their accumulated PS+ games is reinstated.
I think it's fine to call it more open. But to call Windows "open" is a misuse of the term. Android is also more open than iOS, but not open like for example OpenMoko.
Thank you for the clarification. I knew that, but I wasn't sure if Sony had decided to make PS3 PS+ rewards permanent since the lack of backwards compatibility kind of creates a wall there.
For someone in this scenario, you don't find the idea of having to reactive your PS+ subscription for an older console to access this library extremely wrong?
I'm not in the scenario where I move out of the PlayStation ecosystem, so I'm not the best judge of it.
I signed with PS+ last year because it made sense with the trade-off when comparing to what I paid to what I get. (3 dollars more and I got Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown on day 1 including everything else on PS+. Made sense to me.)
But I don't think it's wrong. You get prompted so much about what kind of deal PS+ is that I find it annoying and I hope with PS4 we can disable all these information pop-ups that you have to acknowledge every single time you associate a free-rotation PS+ game with your account.
What I do find wrong is that PS4 non-f2p multiplayer requires PS+. (Edit: I say that as a happy PS+ member. I like the carrot, not the stick.)
DriveClub not being complete for PS+ is because it's day and date with the retail version and you do get a discount if you upgrade. A few other games may do that on day 1 but it's not the same as the IGC is going to be.
Well, we can definitely agree on that. The idea that pay-to-play online is still a thing in 2013/14 and will unfortunately be on consoles is sad. Even most MMOs, which were the few games to attempt to justify such a claim have moved away from it.
Actually you may be astounded to pass from 1680x1050 to 1080p. Sometimes I conenct my pc to the big ass tv that I got and my games keep playing at 60fps at 1080p. Of course, not battlefield for example (Not sure, don't have it, don't like fps) but other games are underutilizing the gpu/cpu and you don't notice until you up the res and see that is running as smoothy as before (Some examples, Skyrim, borderlands 2, dishonored, hitman)
We got plenty of unused power on the pc thanks to current gen consoles limitations.
They do lose instant access to it once they decide they don't have room for multiple consoles under their TV and have to put their PS3 in a box in a closet room. On PC you always have access to your games from 1993, 1998, 2004, 2010 and 2013 without any hassle.
I would challenge the "without any hassle" part but your overall point is true.
Atraveller
Banned
Click to install game, once it's finished, click to start.I would challenge the "without any hassle" part but your overall point is true.
Brofist
Member
I would challenge the "without any hassle" part but your overall point is true.
Clicking an icon is a real hassle
alexandros
Banned
I made a new thread to explain the difference between the previous generation and the next one, feel free to share your input there and let's all help this thread get back on topic.
PC vs Console: The differences between 2006 and 2013 explained
PC vs Console: The differences between 2006 and 2013 explained
To be fair, installing a game from 1993 is most likely not just a matter of clicking install and then playing. Sure, if you bought it from GoG that's pretty much exactly what you'll do but if you bought that game back in 1993 then you most likely have it on a disc somewhere and need to set up dosbox or whatever manually. Not exactly difficult in most cases but also not as simple as just clicking install.
Atraveller
Banned
I see, I was thinking about steam when I was replying.
It's a lot more likely that the "measures" (and alternative ways) will work than that Steam "collapses", so your argument seems a little bit pointless to me.
Dosbox is fairly straightforward these days I think, so is SCUMM VM. The most difficult case for the user are some Windows 95 games, their installer won't even fire up on modern OSes, in which case you're either lucky and some fan made an updated installer or you're screwed and won't be able to play it.
But to be honest I've rebought most of the games from yesteryear on digital stores to have easy access to them.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I love gaming on the PC as much as the next person, but honestly, I cannot fully delve into PC gaming for 3 main reasons:
- Can't trade in games
- Cannot play MP games online with my friends
- I use a controller. MP would put me at a massive disadvantage.
- Can't trade in games
- Cannot play MP games online with my friends
- I use a controller. MP would put me at a massive disadvantage.
SirButterstick
Banned
Gemüsepizza;75814055 said:
1) Citation needed please.
2) Funny, I can do most things on my PC. I bet I can even boot into a game in Steam (bless SSDs) before you go through your login / auto update / view McDonalds ads process. And also, bringing up TLoU isn't really a plus, when there's a ton more exclusives for the PC with a ton more depth. Enjoy your scripted, very linear 'cinematic' experiences! Remember to press triangle to move that palate to the predetermined spot!