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Vulkan 1.0 API specification complete, undergoing final review & polish
- Thread starter Man
- Start date
LordOfChaos
Member
I really hope Apple adopts this, then there would be one low overhead API available to use for all three major PC operating systems.
Brad Grenz
Member
It could. For developers who develop across Windows/Linux/OSX they frequently maintain both GL and DX paths because the performance of DX9/11 drivers are so much faster. By it's nature Vulkan should basically nullify any performance difference between it and DX12 which means games would have no reason to support two different graphics APIs.
Entirely in the hands of hardware vendors and game/software developers. They should for their own sake really.
That it will be the defacto low-level API on Android (the biggest computing platform in the world) and Linux is huge though.
agiantenemycrab
Member
Somewhat disappointing that they missed their 2015 target, but understandable given the size of the undertaking. They really need to get this right from the start. If they get the abstractions wrong then it will cause problems for decades.
Vulkan will run anywhere there is a Vulkan driver, meaning every Windows release that the GPU vendors want to target, which is very version of Windows that is still widely used (XP until now). D3D12 will only run on Windows 10 as of today. Most(all?) of the Chinese PC gaming market uses Windows XP, essentially restricting them to GL and D3D9, and locking them out of modern hardware features that assume a newer API is available.
Beyond that D3D12 and Vulkan offer basically identical functionality and only exist to expose the underlying hardware with a more sensible(and performant) abstraction.
I hope so too. Looking quite unlikely though.
Vulkan will run anywhere there is a Vulkan driver, meaning every Windows release that the GPU vendors want to target, which is very version of Windows that is still widely used (XP until now). D3D12 will only run on Windows 10 as of today. Most(all?) of the Chinese PC gaming market uses Windows XP, essentially restricting them to GL and D3D9, and locking them out of modern hardware features that assume a newer API is available.
Beyond that D3D12 and Vulkan offer basically identical functionality and only exist to expose the underlying hardware with a more sensible(and performant) abstraction.
I hope so too. Looking quite unlikely though.
They left the group in favour of their own Metal API, and pretty much all references to their involvement in Vulkan are gone since Metal was announced for Mac, so most likely not
TouchMyBox
Member
OpenGL seemed like a bit of a fractured mess, so a do-over should be good for open APIs.
It's all a matter of driver support being on WHQL drivers. It might even be possible to create a wrapper for DX12 similar to ANGLE (which implements OpenGL using DirectX and is used by Chrome, for example).
But since now they finalized the API, it will take quite a while until it becomes widespread enough to be used without a fallback. Specially on Android, with the whole mess of devices that won't get updates.
Going forward: All Valve games is a guarantee. Frostbite based games very likely (DICE/Johan Anderson defined Mantle after all which is the source for Vulkan).
Valve have Source 2 for Vulkan and the recent leak shows a Dota2 Vulkan version, but I'd suspect all their games will push it. When it was announced, during the Q&A it was suggested that the outlook was "good" for one of the consoles to be on board for supporting Vulkan, so that might be a thing as well.
Danlord
Member
Luckily
Still remember how MS tried to win the "API" wars by killing support for it and tried to kill BC. That upgrade revenue was really tempting ^^ Of course this was during the time MS thought they could own the hardware due to the software
Not saying Win10 is all that but it's better than I expected.
Crayon
Member
It would be great if both nintendo and sony get onboard with it.
MrCunningham
Member
I really hope AMD gains some ground with Vulkan on Linux. Vulkan was based on mantle to begin with, so they should have a good starting point.
The great thing about UE4 is that in THEORY (maybe not in practice) someone could write their own Vulkan backend and get it merged into the engine source as an option.
Locuza
Member
https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/630792308959629312
And for Unity the status is:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Unity-Vulkan-Will-Come
The outlook is very good.
There isn't so much pressure at the moment, because the DX12 Support from the big Engines is also not finished yet and Vulkan can leverage the work done for DX12.
That seems to be specific to Android UE4 Vulkan though. I wonder about Windows.
Gemüsepizza
Member
But why would they support it with Frostbite? DICE supported Mantle because it was better than DirectX. But Vulkan isn't better than DX12. And Frostbite games are targeted at Windows PCs and consoles (which don't support Vulkan). It makes no sense from a business point of view to support Vulkan. It's a waste of time/resources.
I don't think this API will play a significant role in PC gaming. They are simply too late, DirectX 12 is already here, and people are familiar with DirectX. The only areas where they could have some success is with Windows/Linux cross-platform games and mobile games. But for your typical AAA production, there is no real reason to have it.
Candescence
Member
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
Uh... You sure about that, chief?
Hell, it's quite possible for a future non-Microsoft console to support Vulkan, Nintendo is showing signs of supporting it due to being a member of Khronos, at least, it would make sense for the NX.
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
Any proof on that one? I've seen a few comments from developers otherwise.
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
Windows 7+ are confirmed to support Vulkan from both AMD and Nvidia drivers. Not sure about Intel. In contrast, DX12 is only supported on Windows 10 for AMD and Nvidia.
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
The vast majority of Windows users are on 7 still, so there's that. Plus SteamOS and Android could be significant for engine design and cross platform games.
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
Is it, though? I haven't seen anything I can download and run other than some engine tests and a 3D Mark test that isn't even graphically impressive. DOTA2 has been shown on Vulkan for the better part of 2015 and is likely to be released in January, it could very well beat any DX12 game to market.
Boombox On
Member
Gemüsepizza;189857531 said:
1) EA literally invested and participated in the creation of Vulkan. They're supporting already, alongside nearly everyone even partially involved with the video game industry except Microsoft and Apple.
2) DX12 only runs on Windows 10. Vulkan can run on Windows XP. Unless you want to cut your maximum audience in half for pc gaming over the next 3-5 years, Vulkan will have a purpose.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I'm eager to see Vulkan succeed. I think it has a great shot and nice to see we are close to release.
Windows 10, while better than 8, still bugs me about a number of things. However, it looks like Microsoft is going to try to basically force 10 on everyone they can, maybe even without asking, so that particular benefit may fall by the wayside.
I know some people probably consider this a positive change, but that's a long derail.
Boombox On
Member
Perhaps, but either way there is a massive access gap between the two of them
alexandros
Banned
For now. It might not be like that forever if Valve is serious about Linux.
As long as steamOS is not a versatile OS for desktop working like windows, I can't see it happening.
I agree with this in general, but even as someone who's used Linux a long time, Windows 8-10 is the first time I've really thought about using Linux as a primary OS.
I think Microsoft would have to royally screw up for there even to be meaningful backlash -- something like a forced update breaking millions of Windows installs.
Gemüsepizza
Member
I haven't seen any such comments.
People who don't use Windows 10 yet don't care about stuff like Vulkan or DX12. They will be fine with DX11.
Steam OS and Android are irrelevant when it comes to AA/AAA game development.
DX12 was finalized months ago. Valve is an outlier because of their weird Linux/Windows strategy. They are not really representative of the AA/AAA game development industry in that regard.
No, they invested resources in Mantle, which they dropped support for after Microsoft announced their DX12 plans. I still do not see an argument why EA should invest in Vulkan for their AAA titles.
Nonsense. DX is backwards compatible. And people who still run Windows XP don't care about new APIs.
I think you are massively overestimating the effect these two technologies combined will have on the industry. Nobody cares about Linux gaming, except some nerds.
There is nothing that indicates that Valve has the ability to establish Linux as a serious alternative to Windows. They have tried for years. When will their "serious efforts" start? In 2016, the year of the Linux desktop? There is also absolutely no reason for Windows gamers to switch to Linux. Especially considering how new platforms like Origin, Uplay and more have started to pop up in the last few years, and continue to do so. Next year for example we will see the launch of the Oculus Rift platform, which will be exclusive to Windows.
alexandros
Banned
Gemüsepizza;189870491 said:
I don't know and Valve probably doesn't know either. It's clear though that the pieces are only just now starting to fall into place and the bigger piece, Vulkan, is still being finalized. If (and granted, that's a huge if) Vulkan manages to become a popular API then Linux support will become immeasurably easier.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Gemüsepizza;189870491 said:
1. 3D apis are not used for games alone. Various window compositors run on 3d apis. Media, productivity and professional apps run on 3d apis.
2. There are ecosystems built right on top of linux + 3d apis. Ecosystems that are used for the large part for gaming. Android, Chrome OS (with WebGL), Tizen.
3. HPC is done almost entirely on linux + some GPGPU/3d api.
Really hoping vulkan takes off. Means in the Linux world we can rid ourselves of amd's rubbidh OpenGL implementation. As a Mac user in just a bit disappointed apple decided to try and push metal when every man and their dog could see right from the beginning it would never be properly supported in commercial releases.
FrozenCell
Member
been living under a rock I presume?Gemüsepizza;189870491 said:
agiantenemycrab
Member
Gemüsepizza;189870491 said:
D3D12 is not backwards compatible. It will almost certainly be forwards compatible, but it will not run on Windows releases earlier than 10.0. The coupling of the API and operating system, in the case of D3D12 and Windows 10, is entirely for commercial purposes. One of the clearest goals that Valve have stated for Vulkan is to allow Dota 2 to run well on lower spec hardware in the Chinese PC and cybercafe market, which is enormous and almost exclusively Windows XP. They have explicitly stated this as a goal for Source 2 and Vulkan. The players might not care, but developers certainly do.
Besides that, D3D has always been proprietary and has always introduced a dependency on Windows. I would think that is common sense that the games industry would want to avoid any dependency on a proprietary system, maintained by a company that has been investigated by the US DOJ for anticompetitive behaviour and has consistently demonstrated incompetence in both management and software development.
You are overestimating the relevance of Wayland for games. Wayland is not a particularly interesting or new piece of technology. We have had efficiently designed compositing window managers (ie. not X11 based compositors) since the first release of Mac OSX almost 15 years ago, and Windows has had it since DWM became the standard compositor in Vista. Wayland is simply the free software world catching up with the proprietary world. For applications that own the entire surface and redraw at a variable rate(in other words, fullscreen games) Wayland doesn't have many advantages over X11. A slightly cleaner API maybe, but thats all, and XCB has solved this problem for X11 for a good while now. Valve have explicitly stated that they will be staying with X11 for SteamOS. And I'm not saying this because I am some anti-Linux troll (I'm typing this from a Gnome Shell Wayland session). But lets not make it into something it isn't.
Unknown Soldier
Banned
I would think not living under a rock would cause people to agree that Linux has no chance of supplanting Windows on the desktop.
Neither Nvidia nor AMD care enough to actually try to produce Linux drivers which approach the performance of their Windows drivers. No one is going buy a Steam OS box which runs games 30-50% slower than the same hardware running Windows because the drivers are in such a poor state, especially when they already own a PC which runs Windows, and that PC already runs all their games plus Chrome, Word, and Photoshop.
And this is even if we pretend that game developers not named Valve will bother to support Linux. Which they won't. It's like how Blizzard is the only real game dev which supports Mac OS X, anyone who seriously games on a Mac runs Windows through Bootcamp and just games on Windows. Anybody who seriously games will just boot Windows instead of trying to torture themselves with WINE or something on Steam OS/Linux. Windows is right there, just boot the damn thing and play your game on the native OS it was designed for.
Even if Valve announced that Half-Life 3 was exclusively for Steam OS/Linux and would have literally no Windows release, that still wouldn't make Linux supplant Windows. Ever. Think about that a moment, then understand.
Wayland has no drawing API only a buffer. Which means that all applications get direct rendering. Which means no more drawing requests going through the server. The biggest benefit of this is proper vsync and double buffering on Linux finally. Which is atrocious right now (on AMD at least). The only way to not get screen tearing is forcing double buffering and vsync through the AMD drivers which slow down things considerably.
Gemüsepizza, you really are something else, huh!
Guess what: DX12 and Windows 10 is NOT the only thing that matters.
Let me tell you why.
First: Vulkan IS compatible with Win10.
So you have two choices, basically.
One: develop for Win10 and Win10 only
Two: develop for everything, targeting Vulkan - which includes Win10 as well.
At that point, it does not matter where the AAA devs flock, because there *IS* a market for non-aa products, indie games and a tons more in between.
Therefore, it makes MORE sense to support Vulkan in the long term than to lock yourself to a single api.
I see that you are basing your argument on the starting premise that "everything what matters IS on Win10, therfore we can safely ignore the rest", but the standardization that Vulkan brings aids developers to not need to worry about OpenGL Es/Normal differences and lessens performance issues as well.
At this point, this is like arguing for focusing on Swift because iOS is what matters only in mobile gaming (right? right? eh), so who cares whether other platforms are able to run your code or not...
Guess what: DX12 and Windows 10 is NOT the only thing that matters.
Let me tell you why.
First: Vulkan IS compatible with Win10.
So you have two choices, basically.
One: develop for Win10 and Win10 only
Two: develop for everything, targeting Vulkan - which includes Win10 as well.
At that point, it does not matter where the AAA devs flock, because there *IS* a market for non-aa products, indie games and a tons more in between.
Therefore, it makes MORE sense to support Vulkan in the long term than to lock yourself to a single api.
I see that you are basing your argument on the starting premise that "everything what matters IS on Win10, therfore we can safely ignore the rest", but the standardization that Vulkan brings aids developers to not need to worry about OpenGL Es/Normal differences and lessens performance issues as well.
At this point, this is like arguing for focusing on Swift because iOS is what matters only in mobile gaming (right? right? eh), so who cares whether other platforms are able to run your code or not...
alexandros
Banned
I think you are very clearly wrong when you're saying that developers will not support Linux. There is a lot of evidence out there that suggests otherwise. Right now Linux is used by so ething like 1% of Steam users, right? Valve released SteamOS, they are working on a new engine and they are pushing a new cross-platform API, but all of the above aren't anything more than baby steps. Right?
So, the fact that as of right now there are 1727 Linux games on Steam is amazing. With very little effort so far Valve has managed to convince tons of developers to port their games to Linux, surprisngly including some very big names. Dying Light, Alien Isolation, Shadows of Mordor, Borderlands series, Grid Autosport, Civilization V, Bioshock Infinite, XCom, Witcher 2, The Metro series, Dead Island. More are coming, Capcom just recently announced that Street Fighter V will be coming to Linux.