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Was Old Man Murray a precursor to Gamergate?

For context, should probably include the very long twitter rant from the writer that likely served as the basis for this article:

https://twitter.com/NowIsNotGood/status/875078809124573186

Casuals (people who liked Doom, Quake, and GTA) ruined the hyper-intelligent, egalitarian paradise that was the videogame industry of the 80s.

Yikes.
I mean, I agree with some of his points, but this just reads as "games were better when there were only REAL gamers, and we were inclusive of everyone! Except if you were poor. Or in a 3rd world country. Or didn't like adventure games. Or had some disability that impaired your enjoyment of the games we liked." elitist bullshit.
I wonder if the writer foams at the mouth when he thinks about mobile games.
 
I thought GAF was better than this. Defending these terrible 'jokes', I guess people really do love Valve a bit too much.

Tim Schafer was very anti-Gamergate and now has Wolpaw writing Psychonauts 2. I don't want to support his writing in any way.
 
Moviebob is such a laughable caricature of a "woke" white male ally that he doesn't even bear discussing. The guy is constantly putting on a show and misrepresenting history.

His views are so clumsy, overblown and misconstrued that he's as bad as the people he tries to decry, despite being one of the "good guys".
 
I thought GAF was better than this. Defending these terrible 'jokes', I guess people really do love Valve a bit too much.

Tim Schafer was very anti-Gamergate and now has Wolpaw writing Psychonauts 2. I don't want to support his writing in any way.

Then don't.

Let the adults discuss this as adults.
 
I thought GAF was better than this. Defending these terrible 'jokes', I guess people really do love Valve a bit too much.

Tim Schafer was very anti-Gamergate and now has Wolpaw writing Psychonauts 2. I don't want to support his writing in any way.

I suppose if the OP or the Twitter thread he was inspired by actually proved anything you might have a point but as it stands this is just a sloppy reinterpretation of history.
 
I thought GAF was better than this. Defending these terrible 'jokes', I guess people really do love Valve a bit too much.

Tim Schafer was very anti-Gamergate and now has Wolpaw writing Psychonauts 2. I don't want to support his writing in any way.

I'm actually proud of GAF for not leaping into complete moral outrage mode and discussing it rationally. Well done GAF.
 
I legit hadn't heard of this site.

So it was some gamer dudes making jokes in bad taste, but criticism of them was off-limits? That definitely sounds like the fragility GG is known for.
 
I suppose if the OP or the Twitter thread he was inspired by actually proved anything you might have a point but as it stands this is just a sloppy reinterpretation of history.

He's not wrong, though. I'd really rather not willingly give my money to someone who used the phrase "the men who pay her for sex and her smelly dried-up fucking abortion vent," even if written as "satire."
 
well you can lose your youtube channel subs, or get banned from forums and so on.



I dont think anyone is suggesting that. Free speech is important, as well as the consequences of it. People will always say unpleasant things, you can't sweep it under the carpet.

Gaming as a culture(especially some of ti's loudest voices) loves to champion unpleasant things. Thankfully the industry side is pushing back(barely) against it.
 
It's... I don't know.

At the very least, bits there point to the overall ugliness that has simmered in online gamer culture for a long time. So part of that tone.

I don't feel able or qualified diagnose beyond that.
 
You haven't contributed anything to this conversation other than whining about other people.
To be fair, this seems to be a really important topic of discussion for purpleblastoise.

He's not wrong, though. I'd really rather not willingly give my money to someone who used the phrase "the men who pay her for sex and her smelly dried-up fucking abortion vent," even if written as "satire."
I'm not agreeing with what was said, but that reply was instigated by a personal attack. Couple that with the style of humor at OMM and it's not really that shocking.
 
Moviebob is such a laughable caricature of a "woke" white male ally that he doesn't even bear discussing. The guy is constantly putting on a show and misrepresenting history.

I agree, but I brought him up because Bob and the "NowIsNotGood" person who wrote the article in the OP represent an annoyingly common viewpoint in video game discussions: the idea that gaming and ~gaming culture~ was so much better before excitable, racist, sexist, barely-literate fans of violent 3D action games of dubious merit took over and ruined everything.

You see it here too. See how much using "mobile gaming" or "casual" as pejoratives will quickly give you backlash while the similarly dismissive "dudebro" never gets anywhere as much backlash.
 
I'm sorry, but who is this author? Unless I'm doing a bad job at Googling this morning, I can't find anything attributed to him other than a Twitter account and this one article.
A self-described 'writer and game developer' with nothing to his name is essentially greasing up the wheels for the internet to shame successful and beloved game writers... it's not a good look.

Also, to answer the question (which has already been taken care of): no, 'edgy' humor in gaming circles existed long before OMM.
 
He's not wrong, though. I'd really rather not willingly give my money to someone who used the phrase "the men who pay her for sex and her smelly dried-up fucking abortion vent," even if written as "satire."

Old Man Murray is a microcosm for most games/nerd humor written on the internet at that time. They weren't alone. Seanbaby, Maddox, early Something Awful all wrote cringeworthy shit like that. It ceased to actually be shocking which is why that type of writing eventually became trite and forgotten about. It's not connected to Gamergate at all. Some of you just want to re-litigate fucking Gamergate until the ground under your feet becomes blighted.
 
I kinda sorta remember Old Man Murray, Fat Chicks in Party Hats, and Seanbaby all being linked together somehow, right? They were all related to each other somewhat?

Old Man Murray struck me as a more elaborate sort of Maddox, at the time.

The point seemed to be less satirical and more caustic, really. Like, finding new and interesting ways to say horrific shit in flowery ways was the primary appeal (see: abortion vent) and when I would get links to those sites, it was due to those turns of phrase more than anything.

I don't know that GamerGate sprung out of Old Man Murray or its audience, but rather that the site was part of a larger culture at the time that valued clever, anonymous dehumanization of others over most things.

That culture soon coalesced and concentrated at the Chans as the decade wore on. But I don't know that Old Man Murray/Maddox etc. we're directly responsible for the shape THAT took.

I remember not liking Murray anywhere near as much as I liked Seanbaby tho.
 
Yeah, I think the case for a direct causal link is pretty hard to make. At most it fed into the culture, but, judging from the replies here, it was one of many anyways. (Not that this does or does not make the specific excerpts highlighted in the article acceptable)

I'm sorry, but who is this author? Unless I'm doing a bad job at Googling this morning, I can't find anything attributed to him other than a Twitter account and this one article.
A self-described 'writer and game developer' with nothing to his name is essentially greasing up the wheels for the internet to shame successful and beloved game writers... it's not a good look.

Also, to answer the question (which has already been taken care of): no, 'edgy' humor in gaming circles existed long before OMM.

I had not heard of him or the site before either. I did a check on OMM itself before posting, though, just to make sure the quoted material was at least accurate as I couldn't find any other way to validate the article.
 
I don't think so. I think their humor was pretty typical of the times on the interest when that site appeared to be in its hayday.

A lot of people seem to have totally forgotten that late 90s to early 2000s internet was a lot more of a wild west place with lots of gross out and offensive humor that people rarely got up in arms about and was extremely common place. I'm not defending that sort of stuff I'm just saying none of that stuff was out of the ordinary.

Seems like a massive leap to try to place any large part of the blame for GG on that one site when GG moreso came out of 'general internet culture' itself.
 
It's too bad GG didn't just stick to being shitty edgelord jokes on the internet, it might have been possible to look the other way
 
I kinda sorta remember Old Man Murray, Fat Chicks in Party Hats, and Seanbaby all being linked together somehow, right? They were all related to each other somewhat?

Old Man Murray struck me as a more elaborate sort of Maddox, at the time.

The point seemed to be less satirical and more caustic, really. Like, finding new and interesting ways to say horrific shit in flowery ways was the primary appeal (see: abortion vent) and when I would get links to those sites, it was due to those turns of phrase more than anything.

I don't know that GamerGate sprung out of Old Man Murray or its audience, but rather that the site was part of a larger culture at the time that valued clever, anonymous dehumanization of others over most things.

That culture soon coalesced and concentrated at the Chans as the decade wore on. But I don't know that Old Man Murray/Maddox etc. we're directly responsible for the shape THAT took.

I remember not liking Murray anywhere near as much as I liked Seanbaby tho.

Is Acts of Gord still ok?
 
Old Man Murray is a microcosm for most games/nerd humor written on the internet at that time. They weren't alone. Seanbaby, Maddox, early Something Awful all wrote cringeworthy shit like that. It ceased to actually be shocking which is why that type of writing eventually became trite and forgotten about. It's not connected to Gamergate at all. Some of you just want to re-litigate fucking Gamergate until the ground under your feet becomes blighted.

Even if GamerGate never existed, my statement still stands. I don't want to give my money to someone who uses terminology like that. "Everyone else did it too" isn't good enough for me. Even when I was still in high school I thought Maddox was stupid and juvenile.
 
Yikes.
I mean, I agree with some of his points, but this just reads as "games were better when there were only REAL gamers, and we were inclusive of everyone! Except if you were poor. Or in a 3rd world country. Or didn't like adventure games. Or had some disability that impaired your enjoyment of the games we liked." elitist bullshit.
I wonder if the writer foams at the mouth when he thinks about mobile games.

The argument is even more silly if you take into account the number of people playing quake, doom, or gta on a BBS, Dwango, or the even the internet (at first). Those groups were tiny in comparison to the larger 'gaming market' (consoles, board games, etc), and largely were made up of white males who due to their social status had access to the computers able to run these games and the online access to form the small communities which would end up birthing the internet blogs and forums communities that followed.

OMM was a reflection of the community at the time, not a catalyst for it. The gaming BBS and DWANGO scene were plenty vitriolic. Then those smaller communities all went to the internet when quake, windows 95 and Pentiums came along. It really took a long time to get a handle on just how caustic the community had become.
 
well you can lose your youtube channel subs, or get banned from forums and so on.

Sure but that's more like the equivalent to get thrown out of a club and never getting a spot there again. These trolls never get to hear the silence and see the eye rolls that would follow their shitty jokes in real life. Or maybe they just laugh so hard at their own jokes that they don't care. Or maybe they just want any reaction from the audience.
 
I think it's quite a leap to draw a parallel between the two. Like, a monumental leap.

That being said I think it's pretty obvious that Old Man Murray certainly didn't age well, which is probably why you don't see any of that kind of stuff in their writing at Valve.
 
Wow, just now looked at that twitter rant. I'm not sure how he can even see what he's typing through his 5 miles of rose-tinted glass.
 
I think the article's kind of ridiculous because it never establishes an actual correlation; there's just vague gestures at "people in these forums liked this website" which is kind of meaningless when Old Man Murray was a product of a certain style of humor around that era. That doesn't necessarily excuse the quoted bits, of course, but they existed in a different context, when comedy boundaries were a little different (for the worse, tbh) and when the militant anti-SJW/anti-PC brigade wasn't defending it with their lives. It was part of a wider landscape.

There's five or six steps missing from how we get from there, where it was stuff like Old Man Murray and South Park and whatever else, to here, where that style of humor is primarily the language of people who take part in harassment campaigns and hate speech. And the article doesn't really cover any of that, nor does it convincingly draw enough of a direct correlation that we can ignore how far-removed Old Man Murray and stuff like it actually is.

You can probably argue that wider landscape played a part, but at that point it's so broad that citing Old Man Murray as some sort of ground zero is pretty much useless. I've seen a lot of people dismissing this article on Twitter as "the writer was holding a grudge," and whether or not that's the case, it totally reads that way for this reason. It narrows the issue to the point of being basically nonsensical, all the while quoting people who like OMM and were influenced by it only to disingenuously make them look like lunatics by playing dumb about why anyone holds it in any regard in the first place - there's a line that says "whatever OMM's brilliance is supposed to be, I have no idea" or something to that effect. There's no mention of, like, the whole Time to Crate thing for example; an article like this isn't obligated to be even-handed or anything, but when it willfully omits basic historical background to build its narrative, it stops looking like a trustworthy analysis. Treating Chet's refusal to answer what sounds like an ambush as some sort of "GOTCHA!" moment is insane, too.

All that said, any time I've actually gone back and tried to read Old Man Murray I couldn't do it because, yeah, some of the humor was too edgy + tryhard and/or it just felt sorta poorly-paced.

I thought GAF was better than this. Defending these terrible 'jokes', I guess people really do love Valve a bit too much.

Tim Schafer was very anti-Gamergate and now has Wolpaw writing Psychonauts 2. I don't want to support his writing in any way.

Wolpaw might still stand by this stuff, sure, but it's been over 17 years and the comedy landscape has changed a hell of a lot. I wouldn't hold him to the comedy standards of the late 90s and early 00s.
 
I think it's quite a leap to draw a parallel between the two. Like, a monumental leap.

That being said I think it's pretty obvious that Old Man Murray certainly didn't age well, which is probably why you don't see any of that kind of stuff in their writing at Valve.

Definitely.
OMM was part of the reason why I got into games-writing. Nowadays though, I can't read any of that stuff without rolling my eyes.
 
Gamergate is bitter and OMM was not. There is real venom behind a lot of the Gamergate writing. OMM could be very mean. I'm sure feelings were hurt, intentionally or otherwise. I don't think Chet or Erik wanted anyone to literally leave the industry. Their goal wasn't to make anyone feel unsafe. You can argue Gamergate adopted some of OMMs rhetoric, but so did Valve.
 
Sure but that's more like the equivalent to get thrown out of a club and never getting a spot there again. These trolls never get to hear the silence and see the eye rolls that would follow their shitty jokes in real life. Or maybe they just laugh so hard at their own jokes that they don't care. Or maybe they just want any reaction from the audience.

I disagree here man, I think nowadays you get that instant feedback wherever you say something controversial. Forums, twitter, facebook, youtube, and even in person...the world has never been more forthright in expressing their offence.

For me, both sides need to exist...distasteful people will always be around, and there will always be offensiveness in the world. Just like a home-schooled kid with hippy dippy parents who let them "express themselves" will be eaten alive in the real world, because they've never experienced controversy and criticism.

It comes in waves anyway, currently we live in times of super sensitivity, and there will be a pushback to that along fairly soon. Every generation pushes against what was there before, be it a punk culture or a nanny culture.
 
Is Acts of Gord still ok?

You got me beat on that one old man. My hobbit brain has lost that one in the brambles.

The internet of early to mid 00s was a rough, shitty, mean spirited place, especially in genre circles. Boys were constantly and consistently testing boundaries in ugly, cruel ways, from a relative position of safety and security, not just via our anonymity, which we were stupid enough to still believe actually fucking meant anything (it doesn't, never did), but our numbers. We knew we could get away with most shit without getting called out for it, so we did. And eventually a lot of us came to believe that we were owed the right to act that way without repercussion.

Which is part of the schism that came later, as anonymity got devalued and the demographics opened way the fuck up and people started pushing back against those of us who didn't begin to adapt and grow out of our narrow, immature, empty views.
 
To be honest I think most people involved in GG were/are probably too young to even know what OMM was. That's probably a massive overgeneralization, but even in the height of GG stuff, I've never heard it mentioned once.
 
You got me beat on that one old man. My hobbit brain has lost that one in the brambles.

The internet of early to mid 00s was a rough, shitty, mean spirited place, especially in genre circles. Boys were constantly and consistently testing boundaries in ugly, cruel ways, from a relative position of safety and security, not just via our anonymity, which we were stupid enough to still believe actually fucking meant anything (it doesn't, never did), but our numbers. We knew we could get away with most shit without getting called out for it, so we did. And eventually a lot of us came to believe that we were owed the right to act that way without repercussion.

Which is part of the schism that came later, as anonymity got devalued and the demographics opened way the fuck up and people started pushing back against those of us who didn't begin to adapt and grow out of our narrow, immature, empty views.

http://www.actsofgord.com/

Still funny after all these years.
 
To be honest I think most people involved in GG were/are probably too young to even know what OMM was.

That's my experience as well. The kind of people who go in for GG rhetoric are mostly younger Chan-ers and caustic Reddit users with maybe a few bitter old guard passing it down to them. I don't remember very many of these sorts of conversations back on the old Something Awful or even 4chan in the early days that weren't mostly tongue in cheek. I don't think the majority of people with a lot of real life experience (or, at least, ones who don't live their whole life in the net bubble) are all that invested in it.
 
To be honest I think most people involved in GG were/are probably too young to even know what OMM was. That's probably a massive overgeneralization, but even in the height of GG stuff, I've never heard it mentioned once.

The most enduring bits of OMM culture that persist to this day (that still even barely touch common lexicon) aren't even the most caustic bits.
 
To be honest I think most people involved in GG were/are probably too young to even know what OMM was. That's probably a massive overgeneralization, but even in the height of GG stuff, I've never heard it mentioned once.

This is also true. I think it's hard to draw a direct link from OMM to GG for sure, but like others in this thread have said, I think OMM is a very good indicator of the type of internet culture that existed at that time that eventually crystallized into what became GG and other similar vile movements.
 
Eh...maybe? I don't think they're solely responsible, though.

I think by and large what happened is that this parody mentality trickled on down to 4chan, and on 4chan since everyone is anonymous it can be hard to tell what's tongue-in-cheek and what isn't since literally ANYONE can post on there.

I think what happened by and large is multiple things:

1. 4chan ironic humor inspired by OMM mixed with ACTUAL sexism and racism and other shit.
2. A whole generation of kids were raised on 4chan and established real believes in stuff that's supposed to be ironic.
3. Progressive and liberal ideas are more abundant on internet forums and websites (more people than ever are left leaning).
4. These left leaning ideals clash with the ideas that this generation of 4channers attained over the years as well as the legitimate old timey racists and sexists.
 
To be honest I think most people involved in GG were/are probably too young to even know what OMM was. That's probably a massive overgeneralization, but even in the height of GG stuff, I've never heard it mentioned once.

well, the idea is less that GGers are looking directly to OMM so much as that it helped carve out a type of environment that eventually birthed the new breed of angry teenage GGers. which, again, might be true but there's so many other factors that laying it directly at the feet of OMM seems absurd.
 
People drawing the line from OMM to 4chan are getting it wrong. It was the Something Awful Forums that spawned 4chan. If you're going to contend a line of causation at least get it right.
 
imo GG is a consequence of gaming culture in general that pre-dated internet culture. i remember sexist/racist jokes made in GamePro/EGM/etc. videogame magazine reviews. it's because games are part of culture and the culture is patriarchal. it's in movies, tv shows, etc. as well.
 
People drawing the line from OMM to 4chan are getting it wrong. It was the Something Awful Forums that spawned 4chan. If you're going to contend a line of causation at least get it right.

It was one person from SA who didn't like how strict its moderation was who created 4chin.
 
Something Awful's GBS was kind of a precursor to ISIS if you think about it.

If anything, I'd blame 4chan's semi-autonomy and ability to hide in plain sight as more of a gamergate seed, people relished being cruel without any real comeback. OTOH OMM never hid behind their words, they owned their content and were responsible for it whether or not you find them funny.

The humour of the Internet at that time was quite different and it's a reflection of this, it was immature and nerdy but it was written by people that weren't those personas but rather they were wearing masks.
 
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