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[lupinko]

I've put myself on the paleo, with 3 days of exercise/week and there are definitely results.

It sucks not having grain/sugar/legumes/dairy, but I'm managing.

 

[Piecake]

Unorthodox in that it flies in the face of the way we understand nutrition. That doesn't mean its incorrect because its new - thats just a fallacy, but the studies are what they are.



Fair enough - the mortality studies on the diet aren't encouraging. Here's another:

Journal of Internal Medicine

Decreasing carbohydrate or increasing protein intake by one decile were associated with increase in total mortality by 6% (95% CI: 0–12%) and 2% (95% CI: −1 to 5%), respectively. For cardiovascular mortality, amongst women 40–49 years old at enrolment, the corresponding increases were, respectively, 13% (95% CI: −4 to 32%) and 16% (95% CI: 5–29%), with the additive score being even more predictive.

A diet characterized by low carbohydrate and high protein intake was associated with increased total and particularly cardiovascular mortality amongst women. Vigilance with respect to long-term adherence to such weight control regimes is advisable.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2007.01774.x/abstract

Their data is based on mail delivered surveys

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Their data is based on mail delivered surveys

Are you accusing people of not answering 100% correctly at all times? How dare you!

 

[Seanspeed]

And here's a larger study showing no increased risk:

http://cel.webofknowledge.com/Inbou...h=Highwire&customersID=Highwire&link_type=ISI

 

[IceCold]

I think I'll go on a low carb diet in late April/May. Gotta get shredded for the summer.

edit:

Also I think a lot of people are resistant of such theories because iit goes against everything they were ever taught. You are also pretty much telling them they have been eating wrong their entire lives. I tried telling my mom that eating fat isn't bad for you and to cut down on carbs a bit (my family loves to eat bread) and she wouldn't have any of it.

 

[coldvein]

i'd be so miserable if i didnt eat any carbs.

 

[TheHeretic]

Their data is based on mail delivered surveys

And? The sample size is 42,000 - thats a part of statistics. Most studies of diets rely on people telling the observer what they've eaten, and thats a flaw, but its vastly more credible than people attempting to sell books.

 

[Brera]

I've put myself on the paleo, with 3 days of exercise/week and there are definitely results.

It sucks not having grain/sugar/legumes/dairy, but I'm managing.

Welcome to the Hunter/Gatherer club son!

 

[RM8]

This just can't be hard truth when there are so freaking many exceptions, including entire countries. Not saying it can't work or anything, but at fitness forums you can see people in amazing shape and accomplishing in different ways. Cutting carbs is not really special.

I'm a skinny guy (but with high-ish body fat % for some reason at 17% - probably lower by now), and just with intermittent fasting I've been losing fat real fast. All while eating plenty of carbs - and not even "nice" carbs, I'll eat a muffin or pizza if I want to. It's really not a problem if you don't struggle with portion control.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And? The sample size is 42,000 - thats a part of statistics. Most studies of diets rely on people telling the observer what they've eaten, and thats a flaw, but its vastly more credible than people attempting to sell books.

No, it's flawed. Period.

Just because someone is trying to sell a book doesn't necessarily mean they have no argument.

 

[Piecake]

And? The sample size is 42,000 - thats a part of statistics. Most studies of diets rely on people telling the observer what they've eaten, and thats a flaw, but its vastly more credible than people attempting to sell books.

Its a huge flaw. There is a poster above you with a larger study that comes to an entirely different conclusion.

Personally, Ill go by my weight, how I feel, and my own personal heart disease risk levels, not inconclusive studies. And you know what? They've all improved since ive been on a high fat lowish carb diet (still eat veggies, fruit and dairy)

 

[UrokeJoe]

Find your way, just stay away from hot pockets, microwave burritos and corn dogs.

All that and those bags of chips.

 

[TheHeretic]

No, it's flawed. Period.

Just because someone is trying to sell a book doesn't necessarily mean they have no argument.

Its only flawed if you are too ridiculous to assess the differences of different types of evidence. No one study proves anything, its about accumulation.

People writing books isn't science, not matter how effective they are at selling their ideas.

 

[Piecake]

Its only flawed if you are too ridiculous to assess the differences of different types of evidence. No one study proves anything, its about accumulation.

People writing books isn't science, not matter how effective they are at selling their ideas.

talk about being selective. Youre ignoring the studies done that show that there is no correlation between low carb/high fat and heart disease. Remember that meta-analysis i posted? An accumulation of a bunch of studies? yea...

And it is a flaw because there is absolutely no way anyone can even come close to accurately reporting what they eat and how much of it they eat in a survey

 

[TheHeretic]

Its a huge flaw. There is a poster above you with a larger study that comes to an entirely different conclusion.

Personally, Ill go by my weight, how I feel, and my own personal heart disease risk levels, not inconclusive studies. And you know what? They've all improved since ive been on a high fat lowish carb diet (still eat veggies, fruit and dairy)

Correct, which is why I began stating there is no consensus. If you can comprehend the difference between evidence and a conclusion that may resonate.

 

[Piecake]

Correct, which is why I began stating there is no consensus. If you can comprehend the difference between evidence and a conclusion that may resonate.

Yea, there is no consensus. So why the hell should I not follow a low carb/high fat diet if its working for me and my health indicators are good?

Because it flies in the face of conventional wisdom? I sure hope that isnt what you are saying

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yea, there is no consensus. So why the hell should I not follow a low carb/high fat diet if its working for me and my health indicators are good?

Because it flies in the face of conventional wisdom? I sure hope that isnt what you are saying

That's exactly what he's saying in a roundabout way.

And remember, don't pay attention to ideas from people who are trying to sell books. Instead, buy into the conventional wisdom that was crafted by and large by corporations with an agenda.

 

[TheHeretic]

That's exactly what he's saying in a roundabout way.

And remember, don't pay attention to ideas from people who are trying to sell books. Instead, buy into the conventional wisdom that was crafted by and large by corporations with an agenda.

There are consensus views in science, that doesn't make them conclusive in the absolute. In fact most things in science aren't conclusive in that sense. That you should adhere to the diet for weight loss and then revert to a more conventional diet is a conservative approach to this stuff.

But now we are into corporate conspiracies and causal research not being real research.

 

[not psycho]

I don't really understand the conclusion. If secreting too much insulin is the problem, wouldn't you want to look at which foods cause you to secrete the most insulin, rather than simply saying "carbs bad"?

Looking at the glycemic index and the insulin index, it appears pasta is not bad. The insulin index for pasta is below the ones for fish, beef, and most fruits.

White bread is more than double the insulin index of pasta. Potatoes are even higher than white bread, they are up there with eating loads of candy bars. Surprisingly, baked beans are nearly as bad as potatoes.

Going by this it seems like eggs and peanuts are really good. Oatmeal, non sugar cereal, pasta, cheese, and meat are ok. Avoid white rice, white bread, potatoes, baked beans, and desert at all costs.

I'm still confused by the high scores for most of the fruits though, seems like you should avoid eating a lot of bananas/grapes/watermelon.

 

[Piecake]

There are consensus views in science, that doesn't make them conclusive in the absolute. In fact most things in science aren't conclusive in that sense. That you should adhere to the diet for weight loss and then revert to a more conventional diet is a conservative approach to this stuff.

But now we are into corporate conspiracies and causal research not being real research.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vr-c8GeT34

 

[ch0mp]

I don't really understand the conclusion. If secreting too much insulin is the problem, wouldn't you want to look at which foods cause you to secrete the most insulin, rather than simply saying "carbs bad"?

Looking at the glycemic index and the insulin index, it appears pasta is not bad. The insulin index for pasta is below the ones for fish, beef, and most fruits.

White bread is more than double the insulin index of pasta. Potatoes are even higher than white bread, they are up there with eating loads of candy bars. Surprisingly, baked beans are nearly as bad as potatoes.

Going by this it seems like eggs and peanuts are really good. Oatmeal, non sugar cereal, pasta, cheese, and meat are ok. Avoid white rice, potatoes, baked beans, and desert at all costs.

I'm still confused by the high scores for most of the fruits though, seems like you should avoid eating a lot of bananas/grapes/watermelon.

What? The GI for any meat is at the bottom end of the scale.
edit: oh insulin index. Yes proteins cause insulin secretion.

 

[Jado]

Yep...ever noticed how when you have a big mac, you feel full but an hour later you are starving?

What has happened is that your body has used up all the carbs in the bun and salad, stored the fat from the lovely meat (never to be used) and now wants more energy (carbs) to use up what's been burned and will again store all the fat and use the carbs for energy (never to be used).

That's why people get obese. The body craves more and more carbs...it doesn't crave the fat, that just gets stored.

This is incorrect. Lettuce provides almost no carbs (near zero). Most of the carbs in the bun are not used unless you very recently exercised or do so right after (unlikely after a carb-heavy meal). The bread causes an insulin spike and two things happen: the body holds on to existing body fat, and the recently consumed carbs are converted to even more fat. I don't exactly recall, but I believe the fat from meat would be quickly used up only if you're in ketosis.

Due to either genetics or age, some people can burn through all or most of the carbs without effort and see no weight gain. But continuous carb consumption will eventually catch up with you. The repeat blood sugar spikes cause insulin resistance, meaning you need more insulin than you previously did to process the same amount of sugar, but in turn also leads to more bodily fat retention (difficult to overcome, ordinary exercise becomes less effective). At the extreme end, you can't make enough insulin and you become diabetic.

 

[not psycho]

What? The GI for any meat is at the bottom end of the scale.

Which is why I said "insulin index" not "glycemic index".

If the problem is insulin secretion, why not look at insulin?

 

[water_wendi]

To much powdered carb on the chicken.

Yep. Probably 40 carbs of bread on that.

 

[Jado]

I hate these idiots insisting you should add more fat into your diet. Hasn't it been made clear enough that excess fat blocks your arteries in the long run? It's healthier to eat some carbs (just cut down your consumption a bit and don't get a huge plateful of rice/potatoes/pasta with your lunch/dinner/whatever) and ordinary amounts of fat than to eat no/very little carbs and replace it all with more fat.

Dietary fat is not the cause of excess body fat. Before the obesity epidemic, back when there was not fitness craze, aerobics, jogging, and gym memberships, Americans regularly consumed fatty meats, lard, oil, and cheese without a problem. The epidemic only started when the standard American diet and the food pyramid began encouraging consumption of larger quantities of bread, pasta, rice and cereal, and avoid fats.

The fat from meat is also a loose, fluffy type that doesn't block arteries, unlike the dense, heavy kind of fat molecules that arise from carbohydrates > fat conversion. Taubes explains this much better than I can.

sugar is a carb. its the worst carb you can eat

Veggies are awesome. I think fruit and dairy are perfectly fine. My diet consists of no grain, no sugar, and no processed foods - meaning i eat a lot of fruit and dairy. I like fruit and dairy too much to cut it, and dont feel like i need to to lose/maintain weight

Some fruits and veggies are actually carb-heavy and should be consumed in moderation or not at all if you're heavily insulin-resistant and gain weight easily (some types of squash, bananas).

 

[ch0mp]

Dietary fat is not the cause of excess body fat. Before the obesity epidemic, back when there was not fitness craze, aerobics, jogging, and gym memberships, Americans regularly consumed fatty meats, lard, oil, and cheese without a problem. The epidemic only started when the standard American diet and the food pyramid began encouraging consumption of larger quantities of bread, pasta, rice and cereal, and avoid fats.

The fat from meat is also a loose, fluffy type that doesn't block arteries, unlike the dense, heavy kind of fat molecules that arise from carbohydrates > fat conversion. Taubes explains this much better than I can.

All of this and the addition of vegetable/seed based fats. They are the worst kind and they seem to be included more and more in your typical diet.

 

[flak57]

Kind of related, but I used to obsessively research which foods were good for general health, not necessarily gaining or losing fat but general health, and the consensus of all the things I read were that eating a ton and a wide of veggies and fruits, as well as beans (which some varieties have the highest number of antioxidants of any food), made people live much much longer. I have no links to back myself up or specific studies to cite, but it was simply obvious looking at all the various evidence around the net.

 

[Brera]

This is incorrect. Lettuce provides almost no carbs (near zero). Most of the carbs in the bun are not used unless you very recently exercised or do so right after (unlikely after a carb-heavy meal). The bread causes an insulin spike and two things happen: the body holds on to existing body fat, and the recently consumed carbs are converted to even more fat. I don't exactly recall, but I believe the fat from meat would be quickly used up only if you're in ketosis.

Due to either genetics or age, some people can burn through all or most of the carbs without effort and see no weight gain. But continuous carb consumption will eventually catch up with you. The repeat blood sugar spikes cause insulin resistance, meaning you need more insulin than you previously did to process the same amount of sugar, but in turn also leads to more bodily fat retention (difficult to overcome, ordinary exercise becomes less effective). At the extreme end, you can't make enough insulin and you become diabetic.

Thats what I was getting at, obviously I didn't go into a lot of detail and was focusing more on why we crave more! But you are totally right!

Im short, the fat will get added to you existing fat stores, the carbs would be used up or converted to fat and added to your stores. Your body will think "shit im out of energy, need more carbs" and thus you get cravings and ear more!!

 

[UrokeJoe]

Kind of related, but I used to obsessively research which foods were good for general health, not necessarily gaining or losing fat but general health, and the consensus of all the things I read were that eating a ton and a wide of veggies and fruits, as well as beans (which some varieties have the highest number of antioxidants of any food), made people live much much longer. I have no links to back myself up or specific studies to cite, but it was simply obvious looking at all the various evidence around the net.

For me the most obvious thing is making real food and avoiding stuff that is boxed and/or on the shelf. That, and fast food.

 

[not psycho]

The epidemic only started when the standard American diet and the food pyramid began encouraging consumption of larger quantities of bread, pasta, rice and cereal, and avoid fats.

You have been talking about insulin spikes, becoming insulin resistant, etc. But then, why wouldn't you use the insulin index to decide which foods were good?

In the same amounts, beef and fish raise insulin more than pasta does. If insulin is the issue why doesn't that mean pasta is ok?

Of course, there may very well be something else bad about carbs but it doesn't seem like it can be reduced purely to insulin. Or perhaps it is that people eat bigger serving of pasta.

 

[Brera]

You have been talking about insulin spikes, becoming insulin resistant, etc. But then, why wouldn't you use the insulin index to decide which foods were good?

In the same amounts, beef and fish raise insulin more than pasta does. If insulin is the issue why doesn't that mean pasta is ok?

Of course, there may very well be something else bad about carbs but it doesn't seem like it can be reduced purely to insulin.

The insulin spikes convert the carbs into extra fat you don't need?

If you ain't getting any carbs in then the insullin spikes caused by Steak doesn't matter?

 

[grumble]

So what do you low carb guys think about actuation stimulation protein? You know, the fat induced very strong insulin equivalent?

I see it isn't addressed in taubes' book...

 

[Dany]

I was on a low calorie diet for 9 months and lost 70 lbs.

SO...

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I was on a low calorie diet for 9 months and lost 70 lbs.

SO...

Damn your anecdotal evidence, sir!

 

[Juice]

Isn't cutting carbs dangerous for you?

Only if you work for the wheat lobby

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I was on a low calorie diet for 9 months and lost 70 lbs.

SO...

Completely useless information without knowing the details of what (and the amount) you ate before and after your weight loss efforts began.

 

[big_z]

Teach a person to eat well rounded meals at proper portion sizes and they're set for life.

Take a low carber, switch back to a normal diet and they bloat up very fast usually heavier than before.

You eat larger portions on low carb so your stomach never shrinks making over eating very common if you switch back to normal eating habits.

You can eat lots while doing little on low carb which is why its popular but you really only end up as a lighter version of your fat self.

Watch calories, learn portions and exercise. you'll lose weight, have more energy, gain fitness and not be food restricted. Once you hit your goal maintaining is really easy since you've learnt during the process. It takes more effort than low carb, especially early on, but the results and benefits are far better in the end.

 

[Brera]

You have a point about portion sizes but eating fatty foods makes you feel fuller for longer and you end up eating less any way.

I am worried about what I'll do when I come off this diet though...

 

[Htown]

I was on a low calorie diet for 9 months and lost 70 lbs.

SO...

It's a good thing all people are exactly the same.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Teach a person to eat well rounded meals at proper portion sizes and they're set for life.

Take a low carber, switch back to a normal diet and they bloat up very fast usually heavier than before.

You eat larger portions on low carb so your stomach never shrinks making over eating very common if you switch back to normal eating habits.

You can eat lots while doing little on low carb which is why its popular but you really only end up as a lighter version of your fat self.

Watch calories, learn portions and exercise. you'll lose weight, have more energy, gain fitness and not be food restricted. Once you hit your goal maintaining is really easy since you've learnt during the process. It takes more effort than low carb, especially early on, but the results and benefits are far better in the end.

Stopped at "stomach shrinking"

Come on...

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Someone please explain why i'm 120lbs.

 

[UrokeJoe]

Someone please explain why i'm 120lbs.

Your mom didn't have enough bigmacs.

Why do I have red hair?

 

[CornBurrito]

Teach a person to eat well rounded meals at proper portion sizes and they're set for life.

Take a low carber, switch back to a normal diet and they bloat up very fast usually heavier than before.

You eat larger portions on low carb so your stomach never shrinks making over eating very common if you switch back to normal eating habits.

You can eat lots while doing little on low carb which is why its popular but you really only end up as a lighter version of your fat self.

Watch calories, learn portions and exercise. you'll lose weight, have more energy, gain fitness and not be food restricted. Once you hit your goal maintaining is really easy since you've learnt during the process. It takes more effort than low carb, especially early on, but the results and benefits are far better in the end.

I'm pretty sure stomach shrinking is bullshit.

Welcome to the Hunter/Gatherer club son!

Honestly I'd rather die than give up all legumes and dairy. I can give up a lot of breads, but not peanut butter or cheese. If I was concerned about living the healthiest life possible I'd move up into the mountains where there's absolutely no air pollution.

 

[Brera]

Stopped at "stomach shrinking"

Come on...

but its true...?

 

[freenudemacusers]

Had no idea high carb diets included a complimentary stomach stapling lol

 

[Piecake]

I'm pretty sure stomach shrinking is bullshit.



Honestly I'd rather die than give up all legumes and dairy. I can give up a lot of breads, but not peanut butter or cheese. If I was concerned about living the healthiest life possible I'd move up into the mountains where there's absolutely no air pollution.

dairy is fine if you can handle it.

There are different degrees on the diet, but it mostly boils down to this: eliminate grains, eliminate sugar, and eliminate processed foods. If you can't handle fruit and/or dairy eliminate them. If you can only eat them in a moderate amount, do that. If you can eat as much dairy and fruit as you want, do that.

Though even if you can handle dairy/fruit, you will lose weight faster if you cut them. If you are just worried about maintaining I really dont think its an issue though

As for peanut butter, just make sure its all natural peanut butter, and not peanut butter and a bunch of HFCS and soybean oil.

You can still do this diet with making concessions. Having all natural peanut butter is not going to kill you or push you off the diet. Just treat it as a treat and have the rest of your food be good, and youll be fine

 

[Dash27]

i'd be so miserable if i didnt eat any carbs.

I feel like I will be too but the people I know who have done this assure me it will pass. I'm going to give it a try. By carbs I mean no bread, pasta, flour etc and try my very best to eliminate sugar. Well except for the honey in my morning cup of earl grey tea. I dont think I can give that up.

 

[big_z]

I'm pretty sure stomach shrinking is bullshit.

Stomach expands based on how much food is consumed. Its like stretchy pants. Once you're appetite adjusts to correct portions you no longer have to bloat yourself to feel full and your stomach stays within normal sizes.

 

[RM8]

This is why watching calories is way more awesome.

I'll gladly avoid the bacon and lard, personally (but I can have them if I want to).

 

[User Name Here]

And i'm not bleeding because I cut myself.