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[Cystm]

Competitive gameplay.

I will be using SWTOR as a basis. In SWTOR the story is set around a struggle between the Galactic Empire and the Republic for galactic control. It plays a roll in your story as you level, in end game raids and In PvP it is confined to Warzones and a timed open world event on a specific zone.

There is no impact to doing any of these things, no matter how skilled or unskilled you are. The world or the universe never changes.

What I want, is for this conflict to actually have an impact in the universe the game is set in.This I feel can be done effectively in a wide array of ways, that are not unfathomable to implement.

So, for the conflict to change an otherwise static universe (think on how tragic that statement is, an entire universe, that is simply static.) You can do things, like add in a system that tracks questing completion rates on a given planet, monsters killed, planetary specific objectives completed, and then simply compare faction rates and award whichever faction with simple things like XP bonuses, or Stat increases. Nothing groundbreaking, but something to add to a planet to make it more lively. You can take that further and actually change the world itself!

If the Empire is there and players are doing more for that planet than the other faction, they open up a new line of quests and objectives, geared toward gaining dominance of a planet, starting from zone to zone until you have a lasting impact on the way that planet functions. Not entirely, but to a degree that would make the time investment worthwhile.

To expand on that, you could for example have one of the SiS or Imperial Agent sub factions begin a quest chain involving influencing planetary rulers to side with your faction. This can be achieved with an arching story quest chain, but also involves dynamic events, resource gathering, and open world PvP - per zone.

As you complete these objectives, the world around you reacts and is impacted in various ways by your faction. So, when you have ruling influence on say, the planet Tatooine, you see more Imperial presence throughout the planet.Conversely, as the faction that has lost, you get a sub series of quests to begin to resist the ruling faction, and take the planet back.

Gaining majority influence on a planet yields small scale bonuses to that faction on that specific planet, and more importantly, begins to yield bonuses in that specific galaxy, depending on how many planets you have ruling influence on.

These planetary conflicts can reset week to week, and add to the galactic influence your faction has on a monthly basis. If your faction has ruling influence on the majority of the galaxy, you should feel it. The universe should too.

Smaller scale, and not specific per se to SWTOR. I want dynamic open world PvP.

You take a zone, and allow players to build towns, cities, bases, and allow them to fight for control. So, if you feel like just being a business owner, you can without fear of being run out of town, per town/city setting or per server type, so PvE servers you can hug it out and trade, and on PvP servers you can raid and take over.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Why are people looking for end games so quickly in MMOs anyways?

It was promised. It was guarenteed. It was without extra effort.

It was also repetitive. It was also over quickly. It was also a grind.

 

[Proven]

A game with more player control on the conflict would be great, but how many games even come close to that? EQN sounds like it'll try, there's whatever was promised in the Elder Scrolls Online, and what else?

I heard that the old Sony ran Star Wars game had a great player ran item economy.

 

[squidyj]

character progression. challenges.

 

[Moon_frogger]

Extremely difficult content that requires skilled teamwork and opportunities for the very best of the best to shine and show off their gear/ achievements. At least that's what I expect from your typical theme park mmo

 

[Kalnos]

In regards to GW2 there was absolutely no character progression to be found in sPvP and that makes me question why I would play the game over something like Dota 2 or TF2. The only real appeal left at that point is the gameplay and that's not exactly a strong feature of MMOs.

I don't really need a wealth or new content to keep me playing an MMO though, just an awesome server community. Community is key in MMOs.

EDIT: Also, after reading some of the other responses, the fact that no other MMO has delivered a nearly seamless world (e.g. no load screens between areas) like WoW is also a huge turn off to most games.

 

[fijim]

For me it was exploration primarily. I enjoyed exploring the game world in WoW. I enjoyed leveling up and completing quests in order to progress to new zones and explore them. I thought Blizzard did a very good job with the artwork and design of the world.

Once I hit endgame I would always get bored, I couldn't make the time commitment to do serious raiding and didn't see much purpose in putting in the time when there was no-where new to explore.

New raids as end game content did not excite me too much, I wanted new zones I could explore solo or with a small group, without the need to find a dedicated raid group.

I would quit and then start back up again when a new expansion game out.

Obviously this cannot go on forever. I think a really good dynamic PVP system with territory control and real world consequences (much like EVE Online) is a good way to keep players interested and invested at "end game".

 

[Ken]

For me, it's having fun and rewarding instances/dungeons with a good party finder system so I don't sit around for half an hour LFGing.

 

[Blitzhex]

What I want in a MMO.... Monster Hunter endgame combined with SWG sandbox.

 

[Darryl]

Could you explain what Runescape did in more detail?

They didn't really do anything at all. There were 20 skills or something and you progressed each one individually. For example, you equip a bow and you start leveling Ranging. At certain points in your Range skill progression, you'll be able to do different things. You're able to go hunt new enemies for money, take part in new minigames, use that skill to level other skills. The end game was really whatever you wanted it to be and it was never clear when and if you entered it. You just played and set goals for yourself. It was a very big sandbox with activities spread out all over the place. Ideally, I'd like most MMOs to have an end game where you just played and did what you wanted to do with no obvious end activities that you'd be pushed towards.

 

[Rokam]

So what we need is EQ's Raids for the hardcore, WoW's raids for the casual to hardcore, DAoC PvP, and SWG/EVE crafting & resource gathering. Someone go make this game.

 

[squidyj]

So what we need is EQ's Raids for the hardcore, WoW's raids for the casual to hardcore, DAoC PvP, and SWG/EVE crafting & resource gathering. Someone go make this game.

never played EQ. Were the raids at all good? I really enjoyed raiding in WoW, some bosses were more fun than others but they made you do stuff at least.

 

[Boss Man]

Challenge. Reward. Recognition.

Ironically, the three taboos of modern MMO design.

 

[dmr87]

Look at WoW.

 

[Abounder]

I want to have my own house, ship, and mount in a player city with enough customization to make them unique. And I want my PvP and PvE experiences to help reward that. Take WoW's PvP and improve it considerably especially the "real world" part.

What I miss most about older MMO's like EQ were the GM-events where the game designers manipulated the game world like it was Dungeons and Dragons. Having that kind of stuff, almost like tuning in to a new TV show episode, would be gravy

 

[Mandoric]

Promathia-ish FFXI style; huge amounts of sidegrade content backed up with world bosses for the very best.

 

[Dunlop]

I've played pretty much all the f2p games and got back into gw2 to scratch my mmo
itch.
I'm having fun, but at heart my favorite aspect of mmo s is raiding. I loved working on strategies and shooting the shit with my friends as we try to coordinated a large group of people.

 

[Durante]

Large-scale player versus player combat.

It's the one thing that MMOs can do which is impossible to replicate in any other type of game. DAoC showed the way, and GW2 currently does it best.

 

[Alboreo]

I want to have my own house, ship, and mount in a player city with enough customization to make them unique. And I want my PvP and PvE experiences to help reward that.

Absolutely this for me. I love raiding and pvping at endgame, but more than anything I want to have things that are uniquely mine. A house that I have decorated with trophies taken from my foes (both ai and players), customized transportation methods, and more. Customization and unique rewards are what interest me most in MMOs, and I would like to see more focus on that in endgame.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I want to have my own house, ship, and mount in a player city with enough customization to make them unique. And I want my PvP and PvE experiences to help reward that.

This, thiiiiiiiis.

I also love high-end dungeons and raids. I don't really do PvP.

 

[MogCakes]

Once I hit endgame I usually go for maxing out my character's build/gear, after that it's all about easter eggs hidden in the world and exploring the places I haven't been yet. Theme park MMOs like TERA negate that though. I also like to encounter field bosses at random. The reality is that by the time you hit endgame, if you haven't found a group of people you enjoy playing the game with then there isn't all that much for you. Many MMO activities are designed around grouping people together.

 

[Cystm]

Large-scale player versus player combat.

It's the one thing that MMOs can do which is impossible to replicate in any other type of game. DAoC showed the way, and GW2 currently does it best.

That's sad to think about. It's just a big cluster fuck of people mobbing around. Tactics and objectives are so stale that the time investment was not worth it at all to me.

That was at launch though, perhaps they expanded on it since?. I should check back in on it.

I like what EQN is trying to do with player creativity. I hope the PvP systems they unveil are more in line with player driven, dynamic, open world PvP.

Aside from that, the MMO genre has become beyond stale and repetitive.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Large creatures that require the teamwork of many skilled people to kill that drop loot many times better than what is otherwise available

Everything is relative - the stats of any equipment is basically meaningless if there aren't any challenges relatively and significantly balanced around that as well. Getting some new stuff that increases your raid DPS by 5% might be fun for a short period of time, but that's it. That eventually becomes repetitive, boring and pointless. The majority of the good loot is found in raids, while some content is craftable but takes A LOT of time to create - so, most MMO's are only balanced for the raid stuff. The craftable stuff is just a grind, and is only useful for raids.

A max level player can easily solo all the single player content in most MMO's with basic gear as well.

That seems to be the basic recipe for end game MMO content, anyhow. It doles out equipment that gradually increases your DPS, healing, armor, health, etc, so you can progress and beat the next dungeon and boss. But then what? Raiding involves repeating dungeons several, if not hundreds of times, just to equip your teammates so you can do the same to the next dungeon.

You could argue that most games are, at the base level, like that, but regular games also offer different mechanics, world interaction and design (As in, geography mesh designs, flora and fauna, etc.)

MMO's need more skill based gameplay.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

For me, it's having fun and rewarding instances/dungeons with a good party finder system so I don't sit around for half an hour LFGing.

Every time I think I'm too introverted, I see MMO comments like this and I feel fine again.

That's sad to think about. It's just a big cluster fuck of people mobbing around. Tactics and objectives are so stale that the time investment was not worth it at all to me.

That was at launch though, perhaps they expanded on it since?. I should check back in on it.

I like what EQN is trying to do with player creativity. I hope the PvP systems they unveil are more in line with player driven, dynamic, open world PvP.

Aside from that, the MMO space is just gotten beyond stale and repetitive.

In the olden days, there was an upward slope one progressed on get to steadily nastier, more nuanced fights and mechanics. Intriguing as they are maddening, these take what often wallows in a staid repeatitive battle system and broke it open in new, never-before-seen ways. Novelty and perseverance were rewarded. Things were done that I could never have conceptualized before knowing of them, researching them, and especially after learning to do them. An entire school of design at the height of its power.

Thing is, this system also washes people out, either by attrition or skill checks. Guild Killers. Can't have that. So they moved that term to the meta-game around end game and let that be the Guild Killer.

That's why that entire model is in extreme danger of being killed with kindness. I too hope EQN can do something interesting like they're promising because of those reasons.

 

[Proven]

In regards to GW2 there was absolutely no character progression to be found in sPvP and that makes me question why I would play the game over something like Dota 2 or TF2. The only real appeal left at that point is the gameplay and that's not exactly a strong feature of MMOs.

I don't really need a wealth or new content to keep me playing an MMO though, just an awesome server community. Community is key in MMOs.

EDIT: Also, after reading some of the other responses, the fact that no other MMO has delivered a nearly seamless world (e.g. no load screens between areas) like WoW is also a huge turn off to most games.

A little thing that bugged me about this post, but GW2's PvP progression is almost the same as TF2's. When Valve puts out new weapons, either you immediately craft them or you wait a week and trade for the many extras that get on the market.

Everything is relative - the stats of any equipment is basically meaningless if there aren't any challenges relatively and significantly balanced around that as well. Getting some new stuff that increases your raid DPS by 5% might be fun for a short period of time, but that's it. That eventually becomes repetitive, boring and pointless. The majority of the good loot is found in raids, while some content is craftable but takes A LOT of time to create - so, most MMO's are only balanced for the raid stuff. The craftable stuff is just a grind, and is only useful for raids.

A max level player can easily solo all the single player content in most MMO's with basic gear as well.

That seems to be the basic recipe for end game MMO content, anyhow. It doles out equipment that gradually increases your DPS, healing, armor, health, etc, so you can progress and beat the next dungeon and boss. But then what? Raiding involves repeating dungeons several, if not hundreds of times, just to equip your teammates so you can do the same to the next dungeon.

You could argue that most games are, at the base level, like that, but regular games also offer different mechanics, world interaction and design (As in, geography mesh designs, flora and fauna, etc.)

MMO's need more skill based gameplay.

Your entire post seems answered by "well designed raids and/or dungeons."

 

[BlackGoku03]

I asked someone this question last week... He said his endgame was selling his account for $250 bucks.

 

[UnrealEck]

Challenging raid content and competitive PvP.

Basically what WoW has, which is why I've been playing it for like 9 years. But other MMOs can offer this too, though probably not to the extent Blizzard does with WoW, but WoW's success isn't just about the endgame content, it's about being such a good game in so many places.

 

[diggmcbadass]

I've never played an mmo where everyone wasn't complaining about lack of endgame. Even in games that allowed you to progress almost infinitely, people complained.

Personally, I like the style the Planetside 2 is doing, where content from the first minute of gameplay never changes throughout the entirety of you playtime, but all the fun comes from crazy situations or team interactions. Or eve online, but I never got as much into that game as I wished. Basically, any game with player driven eternal conflict is more interesting to me than grinding mobs for xp/gear/skills. Most of the time you have to go to the fringes (or outside of) what is traditionally called an mmo to find such things.

 

[Coolwhip]

Nah, PvE progression only worked for the top guilds (but, I will agree, was very effective for them). It was *incredibly* hard for a given guild to get much beyond Molten Core if they started up after AQ40 was opened. That did need to be fixed, it's really not something that solved by "Well, you're just not trying *hard* enough, that's why you're not doing well!"

And that's why mediocre guilds kept trying to clear MC for months and months? By making something easier you don't fix anything, if anything you make people bored of the game much faster. The last few expansions of Wow have proven that.

 

[Stormwatch]

I liked Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm WoW end game. I like doing 5-man dungeons so those expansions heavily favored that. You start doing a bunch of normals to learn the mechanics and then moved on to Heroic. You got points for doing the dungeons that you could use on a plethora of things: gear for you, heirloom gear for alts, and mounts. You could also wear tabards to get bonus rep for whatever faction you wanted to champion. Mists of Pandarian really screwed that up.

 

[Kinitari]

I think endgame needs to provide unique and dynamic opportunities for loot, customization and (for me personally) a huuuuge focus on crafting.

 

[squidyj]

And that's why mediocre guilds kept trying to clear MC for months and months? By making something easier you don't fix anything, if anything you make people bored of the game much faster. The last few expansions of Wow have proven that.

There was plenty wrong with Molten Bore and I agree with the raid size changes. As much as I liked having a group of 40 together, that kind of logistical struggle was too much.

BWL was great though, limited trash pulls, mostly interesting encounters except dispel duty on chromaggus. I thought Burning Crusade was pretty good for end-game content actually. Wrath was way too easy for the most part.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Endgame is incredibly important for me because it provides the best measure of RPG difficulty and progression that I've encountered by making difficulty progression stat based and stat progression only possible through successful encounters with your current tier of boss level creature which requires strategy and execution to defeat.

Dragon Quest IX's Legacy Bosses get a huge nod for this as well, with several bosses requiring not just max level, but max level in every class for max skill points to be truly competitive. Yes, every class max level (at least a couple max level a few times over) in order to compete, not to overpower.

Monster Hunter gets a nod as well, with the character essentially starting at max level and player skill in obtaining materials for gear by killing bosses the progression mode.

There was plenty wrong with Molten Bore and I agree with the raid size changes. As much as I liked having a group of 40 together, that kind of logistical struggle was too much.

BWL was great though, limited trash pulls, mostly interesting encounters except dispel duty on chromaggus. I thought Burning Crusade was pretty good for end-game content actually. Wrath was way too easy for the most part.

Molten Core was great (for me at least) because it was pre-damage meters and true WoW min/maxing and just in general no one knew what the fuck they were doing. MC was where people literally learned to play WoW. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was new and it set the stage for BWL, Naxx, AQ40, BC, and (I quit in Wrath) the culmination of WoW raiding in Sartharian 10-man.

 

[mclem]

And that's why mediocre guilds kept trying to clear MC for months and months? By making something easier you don't fix anything, if anything you make people bored of the game much faster. The last few expansions of Wow have proven that.

Nah, mediocre guilds late in the expansion kept trying to clear MC for months and months because they kept losing the players they'd painstakingly geared up. When you're rerunning the lower content so the worse-geared half of your guild can improve, your top-geared half wanting to actually *progress* tends to look towards guilds in the content they can do.

In the end, 'an MC guild' was basically used as a stepping stone so people could get the gear to leap up to the next level, while the members loyal to the guild itself were always stuck in the churn - which is something I think a lot of people who were *in* those higher-up guilds in Vanilla don't quite realise and appreciate.

 

[Haunted]

It's worse for me because the main point of reference I have is Team Fortress 2, where all you do is play the same maps over and over again. The fun comes from the base gameplay combined with the team interplay that creates an addictive experience, even when the base strategy doesn't change. Yes, Valve did start adding new weapons and maps for new experiences, but I was a player who had his first few hundred hours on the unupdated Xbox 360 version.

And that's the crucial thing, if the gameplay is largely shit, you're not going to have that compelling reason to keep playing without new content to experience.

If you're lvl 99 in a traditional jRPG, do you continue to roam the world map and get into random encounters because it's fun to play? No.

 

[Awntawn]

OP, to address your question: people want to see the numbers keep going up. Before the endgame, you level up. You get new equipment. The time you spend is paid off with the reward of your character getting stronger.

The purpose of an endgame is that even after you hit a cap, you continue to get rewarded for putting in effort. The thing with being able to go back to level capped areas in guild wars 2 (and why it's not really considered an endgame) is that even though you can still do it, you gain nothing from it. It's essentially wasted time.

What makes a good endgame:

Well designed varying gameplay encounters
Constant content updates
Tangible rewards/loot upgrades
Sustainable over time

What makes a bad endgame:

Over too soon (i.e. nothing left to do, essentially no endgame)
Grindy and tedious
Payoffs too slow/at the mercy of luck

It's a balancing act of making it accessible without making it too easy. Ultimately it comes down to support. If the developers keep giving incremental upgrades and keep rewarding players, their endgame is going to be much more enjoyable than a developer that puts out impossibly hard content hoping that the grind will tide players over with minimal output on their end.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Nah, mediocre guilds late in the expansion kept trying to clear MC for months and months because they kept losing the players they'd painstakingly geared up. When you're rerunning the lower so the worse-geared half of your guild can improve, your top-geared half wanting to actually *progress* tends to look towards guilds in the they can do.

In the end, 'an MC guild' was basically used as a stepping stone so people could get the gear to leap up to the next level, while the members loyal to the guild itself were always stuck in the churn - which is something I think a lot of people who were *in* those higher-up guilds in Vanilla don't quite realise and appreciate.

Razorgore + Vael were an evil one-two punch of Guild Killers, too. Leagues beyond what even Onyxia did. Assign a BWL night, those there for loot first and foremost bail and only those like you said where for the raid first and foremost show (aka the ones completing ZG/AQ20).

OP, to address your question: people want to see the numbers keep going up. Before the endgame, you level up. You get new equipment. The time you spend is paid off with the reward of your character getting stronger.

The purpose of an endgame is that even after you hit a cap, you continue to get rewarded for putting in effort. The thing with being able to go back to level capped areas in guild wars 2 (and why it's not really considered an endgame) is that even though you can still do it, you gain nothing from it. It's essentially wasted time.

What makes a good endgame:

Well designed varying gameplay encounters
Constant updates
Tangible rewards/loot upgrades
Sustainable over time

What makes a bad endgame:

Over too soon (i.e. nothing left to do, essentially no endgame)
Grindy and tedious
Payoffs too slow/at the mercy of luck

It's a balancing act of making it accessible without making it too easy. Ultimately it comes down to support. If the developers keep giving incremental upgrades and keep rewarding players, their endgame is going to be much more enjoyable than a developer that puts out impossibly hard hoping that the grind will tide players over with minimal output on their end.

Very good post. I think alot of people on both sides confuse the issue by judging it with a "has/hasn't" factor, where in effect its one of progression and the justified hope of more (via nerfs, new raids/activities, and bettered play). Go too attrition-based to protect the devs investment and few can make the grade or even bother. Go too far to appeasement to "give what players expect/bought", and more and more get "finished" and bored. That sweet spot is not at the end of any extreme except creativity.

 

[Durante]

That's sad to think about. It's just a big cluster fuck of people mobbing around. Tactics and objectives are so stale that the time investment was not worth it at all to me.

That was at launch though, perhaps they expanded on it since?. I should check back in on it.

At launch, no one knew how to play. If you are on a decent server right now (and actually understand what's going on) WvW is very strategic, on a macro and micro scale.