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[suzu]

An rpg made in Japan.

If I wanted to be more specific, i'd say something like an Action RPG (for something like Tales) or whatever.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I have opined my views many times and many ways in the "JRPG's are not dead" thread. So I wont retread my posts.....

First we need to define the term RPG. An RPG is a game where the effectiveness, primarily with regards to combat but sometimes also with regards to other in-game actions, of the playable characters is determined by stats that are visible, more or less transparent and manipulable by the player. The manipulation of these stats should be a rather important part of gameplay. Note that changing equipment that would change the effective stats of your characters would count as manipulating your stats as well.

Now that that is taken care of you can classify RPGs based on how the battles work.

RPGs that put a big focus on direct control of you characters, where timing of blocking, dodging and attacking is important for the players success are action RPGs. Examples include Demon's Souls and Kingdom Hearts.

RPGs where you control a large number of characters, where positioning of your characters in relation to each other, the opponent and the surrounding environment is critical for success, are tactics RPGs. Note that "strategy RPG is a misnomer. There is a difference, folks. Examples include Final Fantasy Tactics and Valkyria Chronicles

RPGs where you decide what your characters are doing mainly by choosing between different commands on a list, and which are not action RPGs or tactical RPGs (this qualifier is needed or Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy Tactics would count as well) are command RPGs. Examples include mainline Final Fantasy games and Dragon Quest games.

RPGs where you damage enemies by lining up your crosshairs to shoot them are shooter RPGs. Examples include Borderlands and Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus.

Finally, you can classify RPGs based on the country of origin. An RPG made in Japan is a Japanese RPG (JRPG). An RPG made in Korea is a Korean RPG An RPG made in Sweden is a Swedish RPG. And an RPG made in Poland is a Polish RPG. For RPGs not made in Asia, the collective term Western RPG (WRPG) can be used.

Some people want to think that JRPG should be a genre on its own, where even a game made in USA would be "Japanese" if it adopted enough traits considered typical (by them) of Japanese RPGs. But that just sounds stupid to me, and is not how anything which is not an RPG is classified by nationality. A sparkling wine made in Russia is a Russian sparkling wine and not French just because it is similar to Champagne which is made in France. When a Japanese horror movie gets a Hollywood remake, the Hollywood movie is an American horror movie. Not a Japanese horror movie.

There may be some traits that are typical for RPGs made in Japan, but that doesn't mean that an RPG made in Japan which doesn't contain most of them isn't Japanese. Just like a movie made in Hollywood is American, regardless of whether it's heavily influenced by some other country. Attempts to arbitrarily denote some games as JRPGs and some as not, based on certain traits are futile as it's very difficult to find a precise enough definition which doesn't have too many exceptions and which everyone could agree on. Dividing based on country of origin is much easier and leads to far fewer borderline cases.

To summarize: Demon's Souls is a Japanese action RPG. Cthulhu Saves the World is a Western command RPG. dealwithit.gif

Very very well said. I can't say anything that adds to this point.

Then it is no surprise that you are defining JRPG and WRPG in such a silly manner.

The SaGa series of Square RPGs is about as nonlinear as it gets. All of the games in the Romancing SaGa series are defined by both the ability to pick your starting main character from a list of 8, and the ability to travel the world freely and do sidequests in a very loose order. It is also one of Square's oldest franchises, made by one of its founding members, and through the early PS1 era had as many installments as the Final Fantasy franchise, many of which were wildly popular in Japan.

The problem with people trying to use JRPG as genre definition is that it is typically based on a perception that Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games are the extent of the genre, and a general ignorance of everything else produced by Japan. Only a small fraction of Japanese produced RPGs became hit successes in the west, but those games are not the extent of what is produced by the country.

For example, sometimes people will claim that Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG, but that ignores two key facts: Demon's Souls has little in common with western RPGs, and it is the successor to From Software's King's Field franchise, which has been around since the beginning of the PS1 era. Games in its general genre have been around and popular in Japan for years and years. Claiming that it isn't a Japanese-styled game is quite silly, since it is part of a well-established Japanese RPG genre.

That's a bingo!!!

Great post.

 

[Y2Kev]

But that classification is so simplistic as to be completely worthless! Is Link's Awakening a JRPG? Is Jagged Alliance an SRPG? What about Advance Wars? If Advance Wars ISN'T a strategy RPG, then Valkyria Chronicles must also not be one. Roguelikes are essentially Action RPGs that are turn-based (Vagrant Story more so than most). Arc the Lad 2 is like Dragon Quest, but with tactical battles. The first Arc the Lad is just a tactics game with less RPGness than Fire Emblem Awakening. Dokapon Kingdom is a boardgame RPG. Where does that fit? Is the Paper Mario on the 3DS an RPG, much less a JRPG? And what the hell is Final Fantasy XII or Xenoblade, being neither turn based, action based, or really strategy based?

These are broad strokes that really only safely cover a few, very specific game series. It breaks down at even a cursory examination of anything outside of the most commonly popular series.

Haven't played enough of some of those games to judge. Besides, it's hardly an exhaustive classification. I support further subdivision and analysis. The point is that I don't have any existential struggle in calling Demon's Souls a JRPG.

And Star Ocean has as much in common with Demon's Souls as Breaking Bad has with My Little Pony.

I think they have quite a bit in common. I can't comment on Breaking Bad or MLP as I haven't see either program.

 

[SkyOdin]

A lot of games blur some lines, but very few blur all of them.

Another huge factor I didn't mention is how the story is told. There is a massive difference between the convoluted stories in jRPGs and the convoluted stories in wRPGs.

I don't know about that. The Deus Ex games have really stupidly convoluted plots. Ditto for games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. On the other hand, Dragon Quest has a very simple, straight-forward plot. Same for Demon's Souls or the Etrian Odyssey games.

If there are big differences, you should probably put more effort in trying to point these out, since I don't see them.

 

[Dorfdepp]

I don't know why, but a good portion of RPGs out of the West don't have any semblance of a party whatsoever.

But that's not true. Apart from all those isometric RPG's there are even quite a few from this generation. Just look at Bioware RPG's.

A lot of games blur some lines, but very few blur all of them.

Another huge factor I didn't mention is how the story is told. There is a massive difference between the convoluted stories in jRPGs and the convoluted stories in wRPGs.

Besides, Bioware RPGs are almost always specified with their subgenre. Mass Effects are aRPGs or shooter RPGs, Dragon Age is an aRPG, KOTOR is an aRPG, etc. They are defined by their gameplay far more than anything else.

Both those games are real time with pause. I'd hardly call that action rpg. Diablo and Dungeon Siege are aRPG's.

 

[Mileena]

An rpg made in Japan.

If I wanted to be more specific, i'd say something like an Action RPG (for something like Tales) or whatever.

This.

Souls is a JRPG. dealwithit haters

 

[Riposte]

First, I'm just going to ignore the problem that comes up with the term "RPG" and how it is used in videogames. Basically the simplest short term solution to that is "RPG" is not a genre in any regard. All the things it means to different people (some legitimate, some bullshit) are basically mechanical themes which can applied to all genres. So simply saying "because it is or isn't a RPG" is pointless to the classification I'm trying to make. When I say JRPG I'll be referring to a specific set of games, misnomer or no. What the acronym spells out is irrelevant to me (it is not even an acronym anymore to me). If you are bothered still then I'll just repeat this example I always give: French toast doesn't have to be made in France nor does it mean just any piece of toast.

Now, I'll repeat myself with (admittedly somewhat out of context) quotes:

Recently said this on genre:

Judging from your line of thought, it would probably be more fruitful just to point out how to properly define genres. I can simplify this to something that should be quick and easy to grasp (which is good, because I don't feel like writing a lot right now): one should separate through difference rather than similarity. Judging through similarity usually takes the form of a checklist of arbitrary traits which are often ubiquitous (e.g. all videogames have "stats", period). You need only to read NeoGAF to know this leads to things which are fundamentally different being paired together and things which are fundamentally similar being separated. Perhaps what makes this even worse is that it is strongly influenced by tradition from an era where people didn't really think about these things too hard: all too often you run into the scenario where things are "RPG" this or "RPG" that because Square Enix made it. (I'm not trying to open the car of worms that is the "RPG" label altogether atm, so don't focus too much on that part.)

Things are JRPGs because they are NOT other things (at least to meaningful extent). Based on "how they play" we can make a discernible / meaningful pocket out of something larger (the implication here is that it is not always clean, so don't try to nail me as if I was an absolutist. It is merely like the matter of being able to tell colors apart in a rainbow). With that in mind, it should be instantly clear just how much distance sits between Dragon Quest and Demon's Souls (especially when compared to the other examples of action games he listed). The latter clearly branched off the style of 3D action games brought about by Ocarina of Time (much like DMC and NG). I mean we could break down menus, movement, inputs, etc etc, but at the end of the day it would be a waste of my time if we as two humans can not both observe the stark difference right off the bat. If you couldn't, then I would just be trying to explain green or red to someone with monochromatic vision.

If you want my definition though: JRPGs are a SUB-genre of strategy/tactics games which either remove or greatly simplify placement and movement mechanics (maps). Right now I model the distinction between turn-based ("pure" strategy) and real-time as something which divides games after genre and sub-genre has been identified (it is basically a measurement of depth. Turn-based games have nearly no reflexive depth while real-time games can have mechanics which allow reflexive input to overpower strategic obstacles). I still ponder on the turn-based and real-time distinction.

From a long time ago I wrote this model for JRPGs, WRPGs, and other games thrown into this mess. I never got any criticism on it, so I'm eager to find an excuse to repost it. I don't know if I were to rewrite this today it would be the same - I have a strong urge to rewrite Genre 3 in particular. I'm pretty confident in Genre 1 though:

I shouldn't only be critical I guess. Here is a rushed(I'm tired as hell) layout of what I think is most proper. Though I don't expect anyone to suddenly adopt it, I firmly believe it avoids all the pitfalls.

(Names don't matter as much as what games are in these groups.)


a) Genre 1: Wizardry-like games, Dragon Quest, Mother, Pokemon, Final Fantasy 1-10, The Last Remnant, Radiant Historia, Valkyrie Profile 1

These games have mainly strategy combat systems in nature(though you can get weird ones which have tacked on reflex tests like Valkyrie Profile 1 and the combos in TLR). What sets them apart is the complete removal, simplification, or trivialization of positioning and movement in combat. This is a big deal because in wargames(and then some RPGs), the origin of all strategy genres, precise position and movement are some of the most important elements. In Dragon Quest positioning in non-existent, in some Final Fantasys it is represented as battle ranks, and The Last Remnant is an extreme take on the idea where your relationship to your enemy is what you control(though positioning still matters for AoEs, it is not really in your control.)

"JRPGs". "Wizardry-like". I sort of want to give them a name based on what makes them different, something like Static (c)RPGs.


b) Genre 2: Baldur's Gate, Tactics Ogre, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, Dragon Age: Origins (they don't have to be isometric, that matters only a little)

SRPGs / WRPGs. Traditionally grid-based combat where movement and positioning is very important and you have a whole map to play with.

I think The Last Story might fall into here, as an extreme real-time example, but then again, I don't know if I understand the game enough. It might be 3.


c) Genre 3: Diablo, Torchlight, The Witcher 1(not 2), MMORPGs in the style of Everquest/FFXI/WoW, DotA games

These are what I would call action (C)RPGs(NOT Kingdom Hearts or Demon's Souls). Though they can be further separated between games where you click-click-click and auto-attack, I am going to keep it simple. When are not spamming the default melee attack you are likely manipulating a collection of powers based on cool-downs. At the highest level, the distinction between the genre's strategy origins and the action-nature of it should be really blurry. It seems like this is what you get when you strip away squad-members and focus on making playing one character more interesting.


d) I've never played a Tales game before, but as far as I can tell, they belong nowhere near the above three categories. At least not the classic ones. Also these seem to be action games, anyway.

I am still unsure where FFXII and FFXIII fall.


Elements like "loot"/"equipment", "exploration", "role-playing"/"story branching"(RPG), and even "leveling up" are not essential and can be added to any type of videogame. And they are, especially in 2011.

(Since then, I've come to understand Tales games as pseudo-fighting games and have a stronger understanding that FFXIII is Genre 1. The tricky part about FFXII is determining whether the player movement actually matters or not (I didn't come to a conclusion and I don't fee like playing it again). I should note that I believe these are sub-genres, so they are a much more messier compared to contrasting them to Dark Souls or w/e. Also for funsies: I put The World Ends With You in Genre 3.)

EDIT: Bonus: (Since I said this recently, I guess I'll post it too as food for thought)

(JRPGs reminds me of non-miniature focused tabletop RPG combat systems. They are that way by no coincidence, of course. Think back to the really old games JRPGs were based on and JRPGs a la Dragon Quest or Earthbound. Actions in battles were literally just descriptions the game/narrator asked you to envision.)

if there is a hot springs scene it's a jrpg

Kid Icarus is the most JRPG.


I'm pretty dismissive of the replies in this thread, but that shouldn't be news if you know me.

 

[Freyjadour]

It's a genre.

Cthulu Saves The World is a JRPG. Demons/Dark Souls is a WRPG.

 

[Littlegator]

Then it is no surprise that you are defining JRPG and WRPG in such a silly manner.

The SaGa series of Square RPGs is about as nonlinear as it gets. All of the games in the Romancing SaGa series are defined by both the ability to pick your starting main character from a list of 8, and the ability to travel the world freely and do sidequests in a very loose order. It is also one of Square's oldest franchises, made by one of its founding members, and through the early PS1 era had as many installments as the Final Fantasy franchise, many of which were wildly popular in Japan.

The problem with people trying to use JRPG as genre definition is that it is typically based on a perception that Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games are the extent of the genre, and a general ignorance of everything else produced by Japan. Only a small fraction of Japanese produced RPGs became hit successes in the west, but those games are not the extent of what is produced by the country.

For example, sometimes people will claim that Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG, but that ignores two key facts: Demon's Souls has little in common with western RPGs, and it is the successor to From Software's King's Field franchise, which has been around since the beginning of the PS1 era. Games in its general genre have been around and popular in Japan for years and years. Claiming that it isn't a Japanese-styled game is quite silly, since it is part of a well-established Japanese RPG genre.

Well, no. Like I said earlier, the terms didn't originate to differentiate region of origin, they originated to differentiate style. wRPG and jRPG were pretty much used to describe the two flourishing "genres." They've stuck to those that are very pure in their adherence to the original styles, and anything else has sort of fit into a new genre.

I very much disagree with the hierarchy that was posted. jRPG and wRPG are side-by-side and equal to the other genres of RPGs.

 

[Purkake4]

And this is why taxonomy is the worst scientific discipline.

 

[Littlegator]

I don't know about that. The Deus Ex games have really stupidly convoluted plots. Ditto for games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. On the other hand, Dragon Quest has a very simple, straight-forward plot. Same for Demon's Souls or the Etrian Odyssey games.

If there are big differences, you should probably put more effort in trying to point these out, since I don't see them.

If you look again, you'll notice I called both types convoluted.

Deus Ex is very much defined by its gameplay. I don't know what genre it fits in, honestly, but it's not a jRPG OR a wRPG, that's for sure. Honestly, depending on how you play it, it's hardly even an RPG at all. You could max pistols in the first 25 minutes and play it as a shooter for the rest of the game.

 

[Sqorgar]

Haven't played enough of some of those games to judge. Besides, it's hardly an exhaustive classification. I support further subdivision and analysis. The point is that I don't have any existential struggle in calling Demon's Souls a JRPG.

"I'm not going to back down from that absolute I declared because I don't have an informed opinion!" ... Really?

I can't comment on Breaking Bad or MLP as I haven't see either program.

Well, MLP contains slightly fewer meth labs, for one.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

I don't see this as a problem. We have plenty of sub-descriptors that more readily identify what each game is.

Consider this hierarchy I just created:

These games are all JRPGs, but are all clearly in different subgenres.

I will punch you in the face for that KH classification.

Spoiler

jk dont ban me please

 

[tim.mbp]

Wizardry likes, Final Fantasy likes, Dragon Quest (Warrior) likes, etc. Whatever you are old of enough to remember. It makes no sense to lump all RPGs from Japan in one big group.

 

[Valkyria]

What some people do not understand when it is claimed that jRPG is a RPG made in Japan is not only that the development team is placed in Japan, but that this team is influenced by japanese culture.

A western studio probably would have not created Demon's Souls or Nier as they are. The culture of the people creating games is a key factor od how it is developed, I can clearly sea a difference from games created in France (as Beyond good and evil), and western Europe in general to games created for example on eastern Europe.

So my point is that the key factor is the cultural background of the people creating it, and normally it is attached to nationality.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

It's a genre.

Cthulu Saves The World is a JRPG. Demons/Dark Souls is a WRPG.

jrpg
Web definitions
Japanese role-playing game.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JRPG

Its not hard people what do you think the J stands for.

I <3 JRPG's my favourite genre.

 

[Deified Data]

Couple definitions:

Either a RPG developed in Japan, or a RPG with Japanese sensibilities.

I personally subscribe to the former definition, as it's a lot more clear-cut and design sensibilities obviously change over time - i.e. there's not a single cookie-cutter example of what a Japanese RPG is or always will be. Some subscribe to the latter definition because of outliers like Demon's/Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma, which might appear superficially Western yet in my opinion are still deeply beholden to a Japanese mindset. At the end of the day if a RPG is developed in Japan, for Japanese people, it's a JRPG.

 

[Littlegator]

Its not hard people what do you think the J stands for.

I <3 JRPG's my favourite genre.

"the word 'Japanese' can only ever mean 'Japanese in origin', and definitely not 'Japanese in style'"

 

[demidar]

It'll be easier to post a list of what each style prioritizes, turn-based or real-time; single character, party control or single with AI party; aesthetic; storytelling style; level of abstraction; importance and grounding of statistical points; open-world or linear; world map yes or no; types of transportation; menu-driven or direct input-to-output; etc.

That said, Valkyre Profile: Covenant of the Plume says "fuck your genres" and is a hybrid turn-based real-time SRPG with a world map and a branching storyline.

 

[TWILT]

An rpg made in Japan.

If I wanted to be more specific, i'd say something like an Action RPG (for something like Tales) or whatever.

Pretty much.

 

[Y2Kev]

"I'm not going to back down from that absolute I declared because I don't have an informed opinion!" ... Really?


Well, MLP contains slightly fewer meth labs, for one.

Sqorgar, I did not declare anything absolute. I did not claim I could classify every game in the RPG genre into a subgenre that would meet your satisfaction. I did say, though, that I don't have a problem with people ultimately classifying two very dissimilar games as having a common lineage or common classification.

edit: Oh, and then I identified a series of 9-10 games I said were JRPGs. Please reread my post if you want to make claims like that.

 

[SkyOdin]

Well, no. Like I said earlier, the terms didn't originate to differentiate region of origin, they originated to differentiate style. wRPG and jRPG were pretty much used to describe the two flourishing "genres." They've stuck to those that are very pure in their adherence to the original styles, and anything else has sort of fit into a new genre.

I very much disagree with the hierarchy that was posted. jRPG and wRPG are side-by-side and equal to the other genres of RPGs.

Then what are these other genres, and what are included in them? And what are the "pure adherents"? What are the "original styles" these games are the "pure adherents" to?

Clearly the Final Fantasy series isn't a JRPG then, since it clan hardly be called a pure adherent to anything. The original Final Fantasy was a very straight-forward D&D rip-off. Since then, the series hasn't maintained any kind of consistency whatsoever. the modern games have little to nothing in common with the old ones outside of a few minor elements.

On the other hand, you can't call Skyrim a WRPG since it isn't a blatant D&D clone in the style of the old Gold Box games that originated the entire Western RPG genre. Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age 2 have better claim to being WRPGs, then. At the same time, you can't exactly call Dragon Age 2 a faithful descendant of Baldur's Gate.

To be honest, the idea of purity in genre is laughable. No genre is pure, regardless of genre or medium. The only constant has been change and differentiation. The RPG genre as a whole had been evolving, not staying stagnant and inbred.

 

[LiK]

I don't see this as a problem. We have plenty of sub-descriptors that more readily identify what each game is.

Consider this hierarchy I just created:

These games are all JRPGs, but are all clearly in different subgenres.

Other than including "Garbage RPGs" as a bad joke, I like the rest in his chart.

 

[jj984jj]

This again?

JRPG is not a genre, there is no denying what the J stands for and it's not something you can define for every single person without making FAR too many exceptions.

 

[PaineReign]

Not sure if this has been linked already, but Robert Boyd of Zeboyd Games (Cthulhu Saves the World, Penny Arcade 3, Breath of Death 7) made a blog post about this with an interesting answer to this question here. Worth considering in this discussion.

EDIT: To be clear, he argues getting rid of the JRPG definition, and classifying RPGs by the following criteria

Combat System &#8211; Is it turn-based or Real-time? And for real-time games, there&#8217;s a further sub-classification &#8211; is it menu-based or does the player have direct control over their character?
Positioning &#8211; Is character & enemy position important or irrelevant in combat?
Party Size &#8211; How many characters does the player have in their active party?
Power Progression &#8211; Is the player&#8217;s party&#8217;s power progression linear or do they have more freedom to choose how their character&#8217;s develop in power & skill?
Story &#8211; Is the story predetermined or does the player have freedom to affect the story in major ways?
Focus &#8211; Does the game focus more on story or more on gameplay? This isn&#8217;t a reflection of the quality of either but rather how much time is spent on each comparatively.
Exploration &#8211; Is exploration linear (go here, then go here, then go here) or does the player have more freedom to explore the entire world?
Art Style &#8211; Is the art style realistic or more stylized?
Success &#8211; Is success in the game based more on the player&#8217;s skills (reflexes) or their character stats & strategies?

 

[Mileena]

It's a genre.

Cthulu Saves The World is a JRPG. Demons/Dark Souls is a WRPG.

Souls series is so far from Western. Needs a dialogue wheel and lack of challenge, then maybe.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

While I completely agree with your definitions of RPG (I had come to the same conclusion myself), I completely disagree with basing JRPGs and WRPGs on region of development since as titles they are meaningless and even deceptive. One cannot, for example, confuse FPS and TPS at all because the principle definition is inherently meaningful i.e. the default perspective the player sees the world through. If I said "You like WRPGs? Why not go play Cthulu Save the World or Anachronox?" the other person would be disappointed because my recommendation is completely different to their expectations. Rather WRPGs and JRPGs are called that because of the different styles, tropes and design choices each region have built up within their own development bubble. Of course this makes edge cases more muddy such as Dark Souls as they don't take a large majority of design from a specific region and is something different altogether. Because D* Souls has an extremely large emphasis on player skill, yet still has statistics that determine or gate a character's role, those games can be considered ARPGs.

Ok, so you think the distinction between JRPG and WRPG should be based on styles, tropes and design choices. Fine. Now, try to make a definition of JRPGs based on that which would cover all games you consider JRPGs and not include any games which you consider WRPGs. You will find it very difficult. And if you do, ten people would be able to come up with multiple exception within minutes.

If you think for very long you may come up with ridiculously long definitions which manage to cover all games you consider JRPGs and not include any WRPGs. People would still take issues with it, however, for they would consider some games JRPGs even though you wouldn't or vise versa. That is the second problem of your approach to making the distinction. It is very subjective. And if everyone can just make up their own definition, it becomes meaningless and arbitrary.

Separating based on country of origin avoids both of these problems rather nicely. Some posters would probably be able to come up with examples that violate my distinctions, but the number of problematic borderline cases would be orders of magnitude lower than trying to come up with a destinction based on styole, design choices and general "feel".

Edit: Regarding recommending games to a friend, if they said they liked WRPGs, I would inquire further about specific examples of games he/she enjoys and go from there.

 

[Sqorgar]

Wizardry likes, Final Fantasy likes, Dragon Quest (Warrior) likes, etc. Whatever you are old of enough to remember. It makes no sense to lump all RPGs from Japan in one big group.

I think there is a bit of generational gap issues. I have a feeling that, over time, distinctions between subgenres (and even major genres) is lost as games evolve and adopt cross-genre standards. But more than that, I think that newer gamers never experienced that variety and thus were introduced to everything under a single big umbrella. Etrian Odyssey is introduced to a generation that never really knew the Wizardry style, and lacking a better genre to put it in, it is described as a JRPG - retroactively erasing the genre distinction and making the only notable reason why Wizardy is not a JRPG being that it is not Japanese.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Lets go on a hypothetical here, since I don't have to vehemently defend my position (thankfully more people agree with me here).

Lets assume that JRPG is defined as stats increased by battles won and though a menu based system. Using that metric, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy VIII, Vagrant Story are not JRPGs since levels increase though different ways (CC: Level up happens at boss battles, FF8: Junction system powered up characters, VS: you powered up though weapon leveling up). Okay, lets use another metric that JRPGs are defined by Anime Style, themes, and characterizations. This means that Tales games, Neptunia, Persona and Atelier games are closer to JRPGs than Final Fantasy, Parasite Eve, and Valkyrie Profile that has a Japanese influence, but are not overtly anime.

My point is simple, Japanese Role Playing Games are RPGs made for the Japanese market by a Japanese developer. A western RPG with huge anime eyes and anime-style characterization doesn't make it a JRPG. The developers were raised in the cultural context of being in Japan, so there are uniquely Japanese sensibilities that are imbued in the game, even if it doesn't look or act like a stereotypical Japanese game. An western RPG would not idealize the school setting, would not have heavy concepts of Buddhism and Shintoism, would not portray women, homosexuality, and minorities the same way a Japanese RPG would.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

The J stands for Japan, so every RPG is made in Japan is a JRPG.

 

[HolyBaikal]

If I believed fairly strongly in the jRPG and wRPG distinction, Etrian Odyssey certainly seems a lot like a classic wRPG.

Certainly Etrian Odyssey seems as much like a "wRPG" as Dark Souls. It's kind of funny that people argue that Dark Souls in not a jRPG but do so far less for Etrian Odyssey. If people are judging Dark Souls as more of a "wRPG" than Etrian Odyssey, which is a first person dungeon crawler, based upon anime, that seems awfully shallow.

 

[Littlegator]

Then what are these other genres, and what are included in them? And what are the "pure adherents"? What are the "original styles" these games are the "pure adherents" to?

Clearly the Final Fantasy series isn't a JRPG then, since it clan hardly be called a pure adherent to anything. The original Final Fantasy was a very straight-forward D&D rip-off. Since then, the series hasn't maintained any kind of consistency whatsoever. the modern games have little to nothing in common with the old ones outside of a few minor elements.

On the other hand, you can't call Skyrim a WRPG since it isn't a blatant D&D clone in the style of the old Gold Box games that originated the entire Western RPG genre. Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age 2 have better claim to being WRPGs, then. At the same time, you can't exactly call Dragon Age 2 a faithful descendant of Baldur's Gate.

To be honest, the idea of purity in genre is laughable. No genre is pure, regardless of genre or medium. The only constant has been change and differentiation. The RPG genre as a whole had been evolving, not staying stagnant and inbred.

Japanese styling has changed just as the games have. All the final fantasies, at least the main series, are pretty much jRPGs.

Also, don't get the idea that I think jRPG and wRPG are genres independent of others. They're nice ways to classify games that fill a specific niche, but that doesn't make them NOT command turn-based RPGs or NOT action RPGs.

 

[Spongebob]

An RPG with anime characters.

 

[AppleMIX]

Genre classifications are so fucked and I'm glad they are.

Agreeing that their is a difference between east and west is a false dichotomy.

If you subscribe to the idea that a JRPG is a game made in Japan, then what happens if a native Japanese person makes a RPG in the UK? Does it magically become a WRPG because of the geographical of the game?

A game is a game. We shouldn't get bogged down in what subjective sub-genre the game belongs to.

 

[chaosblade]

The "RPG made by a Japanese developer" seems like a rather pointless genre definition.

Because it is a pointless subdivision. People just have preconceived ideas that "JRPGs do this, and not that" despite the fact that the latter could be common in RPGs made in the west.

That, and people try to put games they like (or dislike) under one label. Someone who doesn't like most RPGs out of Japan might argue that Dark Souls isn't a JRPG because it differs so much from other JRPGs.

I've never really considered it a genre at all, but it seems like a lot of people do given the comments here. It's more of a general label that tells you where the game is from. As for genre, the game is just under some subdivision of RPG, and not "Japanese RPG" because that tells you nothing about how it plays.

 

[Nags]

Skyrim is a jRPG.

 

[Tellaerin]

Count me in the "'JRPG' describes the game's aesthetic and gameplay conventions, not the place it was made" camp. It's shorthand for a particular style.

The fact that JRPG's almost exclusively come out of Japan means that the two are practically synonymous, but if a Westerner put out a game that looked and played like Final Fantasy, describing it as a JRPG would be the easiest way to get that across to somebody.

 

[Riposte]

The discussion on JRPGs seems so damn eager to go in circles. Guys, if you don't face me now, I'll just show up in your other threads.

 

[Littlegator]

Count me in the "'JRPG' describes the game's aesthetic and gameplay conventions, not the place it was made" camp. It's shorthand for a particular style.

The fact that JRPG's almost exclusively come out of Japan means that the two are practically synonymous, but if a Westerner put out a game that looked and played like Final Fantasy, describing it as a JRPG would be the easiest way to get that across to somebody.

Yeah, Cthulhu Saves the World is a jRPG. I mean look at it.

 

[LiK]

An RPG with anime characters.

Dark Souls is so moe

 

[suzu]

The fact that JRPG's almost exclusively come out of Japan means that the two are practically synonymous, but if a Westerner put out a game that looked and played like Final Fantasy, describing it as a JRPG would be the easiest way to get that across to somebody.

Then I'd just describe the game as an RPG like FF.

 

[thefro]

An RPG made in Japan. I don't understand why people are so adamant about arguing against that.

Is Secret of Evermore a JRPG? Is Barkley Shut up and Jam Gaiden a JRPG? Would be a JRPG if it were developed by Japanese Americans? Or it be a JRPG if people made it while on vacation in Japan?

Is Final Fantasy IX (developed in Hawaii?) a JRPG or WRPG? Final Fantasy III I think had the whole team working in LA since Nasir's visa in Japan ran out or something. If Toriyama & Uematsu did the character design and music for the next Elder Scrolls game, would it be a JRPG?

I think there's something more to the style than it simply being developed in Japan or being made by Japanese people.

 

[demidar]

Ok, so you think the distinction between JRPG and WRPG should be based on styles, tropes and design choices. Fine. Now, try to make a definition of JRPGs based on that which would cover all games you consider JRPGs and not include any games which you consider WRPGs. You will find it very difficult. And if you do, ten people would be able to come up with multiple exception within minutes.

If you think for very long you may come up with ridiculously long definitions which manage to cover all games you consider JRPGs and not include any WRPGs. People would still take issues with it, however, for they would consider some games JRPGs even though you wouldn't or vise versa. That leads to the second problem of your approach to making the definition. It is very subjective. And if everyone can just make up their own definition, it becomes meaningless and arbitrary.

Separating based on country of origin avoids both of these problems rather nicely. Some posters would probably be able to come up with examples that violate my distinctions, but the number of problematic borderline cases would be orders of magnitude lower than trying to come up with a destinction based on styole, design choices and general "feel".

Edit: Regarding recommending games to friend, if they said they liked WRPGs, I would inquire further about specific examples of games he/she enjoys and go from there.

It's difficult to completely separate them because W/JRPGS are not mutually exclusive. There are many requirements that can define which style an RPG belongs to (as my post above states as well as that Zeboyd blog post) but it's a sliding scale. Aesthetically an RPG can be super-stylized, realistic or any point inbetween. How much agency does the player have within the world or story? None (traditional JRPG), heaps (open-world WRPGs) or any point inbetween (NWN2 for example). WRPGs and JRPGs are just two sides of the same spectrum, there's no hard delineation.

I agree that labeling RPGs can get really messy, but that doesn't mean we should take the easy way out. We should do our best to label them and in time we'll come to a good conclusion.

 

[water_wendi]

i reject the notion of whether a game is a wrpg or jrpg being based solely around which country the developers happened to reside in when making the game. If i go to eat sushi in Rome im not eating Italian food.

 

[nasos_333]

Epic story driven story

Epic huge monsters, summons

Epic charatcers

Epic open worlds to explore

There are not really many JRPGs left though, mostly linear ones like FF13

Bravely Default is my next big thing in JRPG

 

[Blood Diamonds]

An RPG Made by Atlus that will never come out in Europe.

Simple as that.

 

[Sadsic]

I think they have quite a bit in common. I can't comment on Breaking Bad or MLP as I haven't see either program.

run dont walk to see my little pony! its amazing! oh, so is breaking bad

 

[Sqorgar]

If you subscribe to the idea that a JRPG is a game made in Japan, then what happens if a native Japanese person makes a RPG in the UK? Does it magically become a WRPG because of the geographical location even if the game?

Is Dead Rising 2 a JRPG? Cthulhu Saves the World a WRPG? Was the Japanese-made sequel to Wizardry a JRPG?

Once upon a time, RPGs in the West were essentially dead, but the genre was thriving in Japan. We just called them RPGs. But then, thanks to Fallout and then Baldur's Gate, we had a bit of a resurgence in the west. But Baldur's Gate isn't much like Final Fantasy. So we called them CRPG (computer RPGs) and JRPGs (because 99% of console games were made in Japan at the time) to make that distinction. Thus fans of gritty, complicated RPGs could tell the difference from those sunny, teenager saves the world RPGs on consoles.

(Technically, people already called computer RPGs "CRPGS", but it was intended to make a distinction with pen and paper RPGs, like Dungeons and Dragons, where were far more omnipresent and influential during the early days of computing. When it came time to make a distinction between Fallout and Final Fantasy, CRPG was just sort of modified to refer to RPGs on a computer as opposed to a console).

Except then the PC started dying in the west. Maybe it was piracy. Maybe it was because Microsoft entered the console race. But those CRPGs stopped showing up on computers and started showing up on consoles. You used to be able to call Morrowind a CRPG because the Xbox game was a port. But Oblivion was made as much with consoles in mind as the PC. How was one to make a distinction now? So we started calling them JRPG and WRPGs?

Thus the term JRPG only really exists because console RPGs were wholly created by Japanese companies at a time when computer RPGs were coming back into style.

A game is a game. We shouldn't get bogged down in what subjective sub-genre the game belongs to.

Ultimately, these genres exist so that people can classify which games they will and won't be interested. My personal pet peeve is that tactics games routinely get trashed by JRPG fans who have only dabbled in tactics games because of Final Fantasy Tactics. When you classify things wrong, you get people making stupid demands and having unreasonable expectations, ultimately destroying a subgenre as these demands ultimate push games further and further towards the familiar.

 

[Draxal]

Is Secret of Evermore a JRPG? Is Barkley Shut up and Jam Gaiden a JRPG? Would be a JRPG if it were developed by Japanese Americans? Or it be a JRPG if people made it while on vacation in Japan?

Is Final Fantasy IX (developed in Hawaii?). Final Fantasy III I think had the whole team working in LA since Nasir's visa in Japan ran out or something.

I think there's something more to the style than it simply being developed in Japan or being made by Japanese people.

They're not just like Vanquish isn't a Western Third Person Shooter. Do they try to ape the playstyles/production vales of typical JRPG's/Western Shooters? Yes, but I don't see the point in trying to muddy the waters even more.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

i reject the notion of whether a game is a wrpg or jrpg being based solely around which country the developers happened to reside in when making the game. If i go to eat sushi in Rome im not eating Italian food.

The characterization of that is too simple.

If a RPG is made by Japanese Developers which by extension has Japanese cultural influence (whether implied or outright), made for a Japanese audience, it is a Japanese RPG.

Now, whatever cute little sub genre you want to assign it to afterward whether it is a strategy RPG, action RPG, Tactical RPG, Anime-Influenced RPG, Otaku RPG, Visual Novel RPG, turn-based RPG, it is still A Japanese RPG