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[Megasoum]

That reminds me of Adam Sessler (and his wife through his account) have been bitching moaning about the "Bad guys who run the Video game industry" for the last 2-3 days. They won't say what's up but they'll still keep bitching about it.....so annoying.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I can tell you right now, any site that was blacklisted for spilling the truth would be at the top of my bookmarks list.

Neogaf is now the first gaming site I visit, the likes of Eurogamer, IGN etc. are becoming as irrelevant as the print media they replaced. Anything that is worth reading is linked anyhow.

A news site that didn't tow the company line would be a roaring success, and I'm sure as a journalist, it would be far more satisfying to speak freely. It wouldn't be a license to bitch and moan, afterall there's plenty to be happy about, equally, there are times when standing on the side of the consumer is the only position to take.

Would it really be a roaring success? You really think that?

you can't pre order a big mac

And no one is forcing you to preorder a game or console

 

[Dylan]

Uhh.. I essentially 'pre-ordered' my car. Why?

1. Because it was hard as fuck to get one without getting on a waitlist - hence the need to put money down prior to release

2. Because the car company had a good amount of detailed information available. Obviously nothing inherently negative. But I knew how much kW/horse-power it had, the fuel it used, weight, brakes, seats blah blah blah. I wasn't simply promised "oh it'll be fantastic - trust us, 6 billion-transistors, money here plz"

3. Because the motoring press did their work. I knew what I was getting into in terms of disappointments, short-comings and of course, the positives/exciting-stuff. I had all of the information at my fingertips good and bad, and I was able to make an informed decision that has caused no regrets.

I'm not sure why I should expect to begin my research on day of release? It's certainly not what I've had to do for most of my previous luxury-item purchases.

Here's why: Because as much as you reaaaaaaalllly reallllly wish you were, you aren't entitled to the information.

 

[Stripper13]

I don't know what universe some of you 'game journalism has ALWAYS been corrupt' people are coming from.

Enthusiast press used to be deeply cynical and critical, in a completely positive and healthy way. Magazines like Zzap64, Crash, Amtix, and even CVG used to regularly eviscerate products and publishers. Zzap was notorious for skewering shoddy ports and poor products with, and the industry was the better for it.

The current despicable joke that is 'games journalism' is all about perks. That's it. These people don't really give a shit about the industry. They give a shit about free products, invitations, and the benefits of sucking up to big business.

Maybe Zzap could exist the way it did because it wasn't yet a 'big business'. Sad.

I was perhaps a little young too remember all of the details. But I remember that the multiplatform magazines (Hyper - in Australia) were great and straightforward in saying 'this is shit, this is good - this is the better version'. Obviously the exclusive magazines (Nintendo XX etc.) were clearly skewed.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

you can't pre order a big mac

They will make the special sauce a preorder bonus.

 

[Ninjimbo]

It's just a console war thing. In a year, people will have resigned their petty console politicking bullshit and we'll be back to piling on whatever AAA title is being released that month.

The only constant is Nintendo doom talk.

 

[Codeblue]

Here's why: Because as much as you reaaaaaaalllly reallllly wish you were, you aren't entitled to the information.

You aren't entitled to know what you're buying?

Edit: Are we still talking about cars or games?

 

[pizza dog]

Relax? I'm not exactly fuming over here in front of my computer. Discussion forum etc.

2. Angry: This whole situation is a glaring spotlight on the sorry state of journalism in this industry. The minute these rumours popped up - there should have been journalists from multiple sites working to uncover the truth and reveal or at least outline the issues/cause behind all of it. Instead we get non-answers, ambiguity and 'wait for it' shit from dick-less 'journalists'. This whole situation is frustrating because I have never felt more like we're being treated like a fucking 'consumer' to a bunch of marketers.

Meanwhile, people getting all high and mighty over Sessler withholding... what exactly?

Nobody even knows what it is got the dude upset, right?

 

[Optimus Lime]

I was perhaps a little young too remember all of the details. But I remember that the multiplatform magazines (Hyper - in Australia) were great and straightforward in saying 'this is shit, this is good - this is the better version'. Obviously the exclusive magazines (Nintendo XX etc.) were clearly skewed.

I'm in Australia, too - Hyper was slightly better than the dog shit we get now. The Australian 'games journalism' industry is centred around the same hacks that have haunted it for years - David Hollingworth, James Cottee... they're all horrible, guilt-free writers who contribute absolutely nothing to the industry beyond acting as apologists and mouthpieces.

The British press was always far more aggressive. Magazines like PC Format took no shit, and nor did the aforementioned 8-bit publications.

 

[PBY]

Journalism is the new PR. Period. Its revolting, to say the least. We've come a long way from the days of holding the corporate entity accountable - now it is the entity that holds the journalists accountable and they have to follow the rules they are given lest be left out of the loop for good.

The cure? Every journalist slays their captor at once. The media goes rogue on them. Publishers, corporations, devs... They can't blacklist everyone.

Journalists need to stand up for the consumer, not the creator of consumed product. That's what they used to do.

They are all dead to me.

what is this..? nawww

lets just play games?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Here's why: Because as much as you reaaaaaaalllly reallllly wish you were, you aren't entitled to the information.

The issue is that it's not MS/Sony/Nintendo/ect..that are keeping information secret. They are supposed to. That's their job. It's that journalists are the ones keeping information secret. People are right to question that. If a journalist knows whether or not a game is at a certain resolution, and they are towing the company line on something THAT seemingly insignificant, what the fuck is the point of their jobs?

 

[unbias]

Your title makes it sound that game journalism used to be different.

Game journalism is not dead, for in order for it to have died, it must have lived. Game journalism does not exist and it never existed.

The only difference now is we have people like CBOAT and the internet. Leaks are much easier to come by these days.

I really wish that writers in this media start to take their jobs seriously instead of the typical "hey! it is all fun and laughter!" But I don't blame those writers/journalists. I blame you, me and every other "hardcore" gamer out there. We continue to support those terrible writers by visiting their websites, commenting, and contributing to their sites. We practically continue to give them money via subscriptions, site/social media activities, and ad clicks.

Why do you expect them to change if we refuse to change?

Bold - That isnt a good argument in regards to the lack of investigative journalism, King, you honestly believe it has ever been different in other consumer industries? The problem isnt that people go to the sites available. The problem is type of reporting being talked about in here isn't the type that gets supported by big corporations, and the the media outlets in gaming are even more so dependent on very specific corporations, then even 24 hour news channels(mainly because they[the press] are stuck on a very old formula, imo).

This industry isn't unique, in that its consumers are any worse/better, the only real difference is the foundation of the industry is ran by the publishers, that includes the press, even more so then other hobby/tech fields.

 

[Gaz_RB]

You aren't entitled to know what you're buying?

Edit: Are we still talking about cars or games?

No, you're not, not before it's available for sale.

 

[Stripper13]

Here's why: Because as much as you reaaaaaaalllly reallllly wish you were, you aren't entitled to the information.

There's that word again.

I'm having trouble seeing what your point is. Again, I'm not asking for anyone to take to the streets of Twitter and start an uprising. I'm asking GAF's thoughts on the fact that we can't seem to get a shred of legit, non-spun, non-filtered information from anyone - including the people being paid to cover the industry. I don't feel like I'm in the wrong by wanting to know more about where my money may or may not be going.

 

[Dylan]

you can't pre order a big mac

But if you could preorder a Happy Meal, does that mean you should?

There'd be a 50+ page thread bitching that we don't know how many nuggets were included.

 

[astarisborn94]

Game fans make the game industry not fun.

You've nailed it. At the end of the day, it is the gamers who decide what they want to get and who they will give money to. If the gamers had inform themselves and stand up for what is right for gaming, this generation could have been the very best generation ever made. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Tell me that companies like Capcom, EA, Activision and Microsoft seeing the people who bitched about Sonic's green eyes and long spikes in Sonic 4, the people who obsess over technical visuals instead of focusing on discussing the game play (see the Call of Duty Xbox One 720p thread) people defending companies based on brand loyalty and not because of what they're contributing to gaming, and most importantly, people who whine about a game doing this and that to them and still buy said game that screw them over and did not think that if they screw over gamers for more money that it would work? Of course they would see such an immature audience as something to reap from; it was after all, more money.

As long as gamers continue to accept bad practices in the video game industry, the problems within the video game industry will continue to come up. That is why gamers need to stop whining about other people giving criticism towards a company and stand up for what is right for gaming. Should we fail to do so, next gen will do irreparable damage on the video game industry. Next gen is going to be the most critical point in gaming and it is up to the gamers to decide what happens with gaming. We must punish bad practices at all costs; which is why Capcom is in a bad financial situation and why Microsoft had to reverse those horrible DRM policies for the Xbox One.

 

[JesseEwiak]

You aren't entitled to know what you're buying?

Edit: Are we still talking about cars or games?

If what it says on the box that you buy (or facts that are stated on Amazon) isn't true once you pop in the disc, then yes, you deserve the refund. But no, until you actually have the box in your hand, you aren't 'entitled' to any information.

After all, there are games every week that comes out that nobody knows about and nobody cares about before hand. The fact everybody knows umpteen things about Watch_Dogs is...wait for it...marketing!

 

[Stripper13]

Meanwhile, people getting all high and mighty over Sessler withholding... what exactly?

Nobody even knows what it is got the dude upset, right?

Oh okay - because I typed angry. My bad.

Rest assured I'm fine.

 

[pieatorium]

But if you could preorder a Happy Meal, does that mean you should?

There'd be a 50+ page thread bitching that we don't know how many nuggets were included.

but you can't and there would only be bitching if the number of nuggets was being withheld

 

[BajiBoxer]

I'm looking at a 1992 EGM preview guide right now, and let me tell you we are living in a fucking golden age of games journalism by comparison, at least when talking about honest opinions of yet to be released games and consoles.

 

[Project Alice]

I can only speak for myself - but I haven't visited a gaming site not named NeoGAF in months. The last site I went to before that was Kotaku - and that was during the XB1 launch event because GAF went down.

It's not an active boycott - I just got tired of the same spoon-fed marketing bullshit. I think when it became apparent that every preview was "Hey, this game is going to be freaking amazing", I decided that GAF would be the best source of news.

I've found myself doing the same. I generally use GAF as my jumpoff and follow the better links our insightful users post for us to review. I loved 1up during the last gen launch. I still kind of like Joystiq at times & eurogamer has some good scoops at times. Mostly though, I stay here now.

 

[Tagyhag]

You can't completely trust people who receive review copies. Period.

You and they know that depending on what they do on that review, they can get blacklisted from any more copies.

There are of course, multiple reviewers who do not use review copies but obviously they are not as well known.

My assumption? It's only going to get worse unless something really catastrophic happens. (Which will never happen)

 

[JesseEwiak]

The issue is that it's not MS/Sony/Nintendo/ect..that are keeping information secret. They are supposed to. That's their job. It's that journalists are the ones keeping information secret. People are right to question that. If a journalist knows whether or not a game is at a certain resolution, and they are towing the company line on something THAT seemingly insignificant, what the fuck is the point of their jobs?

The point of their jobs is to tell people about new games that are coming out. And if they signed a NDA stating that they're not allowed to talk about x game until y time, tough titties. That's the _legal_ document they signed. They didn't have to do that. But, they (or their bosses) determined the info they are allowed to give out is worth it to sign the NDA.

That's the point of their jobs.

I'm looking at a 1992 EGM preview guide right now, and let me tell you we are living in a fucking golden age of games journalism by comparison, at least when talking about honest opinions of yet to be released games and consoles.

No, no, but a magazine with a circulation of 16 people in Tanzania really took it to Sega! So it was a Golden Age! *goes back in my Cocoon of Nostalgia*

 

[soultron]

That reminds me of Adam Sessler (and his wife through his account) have been bitching moaning about the "Bad guys who run the Video game industry" for the last 2-3 days. They won't say what's up but they'll still keep bitching about it.....so annoying.

If all of this is over the resolution differences per platform of a multiplatform game, I'm going to knock over a magazine rack.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The point of their jobs is to tell people about new games that are coming out. And if they signed a NDA stating that they're not allowed to talk about x game until y time, tough titties. That's the _legal_ document they signed. They didn't have to do that. But, they (or their bosses) determined the info they are allowed to give out is worth it to sign the NDA.

That's the point of their jobs.

You just described the job of someone in Public Relations or Marketing...almost to a tee. Why don't they just cut out the middle man?

 

[Gaz_RB]

You've nailed it. At the end of the day, it is the gamers who decide what they want to get and who they will give money to. If the gamers had inform themselves and stand up for what is right for gaming, this generation could have been the very best generation ever made. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Tell me that companies like Capcom, EA, Activision and Microsoft seeing the people who bitched about Sonic's green eyes and long spikes in Sonic 4, the people who obsess over technical visuals instead of focusing on discussing the game play (see the Call of Duty Xbox One 720p thread) people defending companies based on brand loyalty and not because of what they're contributing to gaming, and most importantly, people who whine about a game doing this and that to them and still buy said game that screw them over and did not think that if they screw over gamers for more money that it would work? Of course they would see such an immature audience as something to reap from; it was after all, more money.

As long as gamers continue to accept bad practices in the video game industry, the problems within the video game industry will continue to come up. That is why gamers need to stop whining about other people giving criticism towards a company and stand up for what is right for gaming. Should we fail to do so, next gen will do irreparable damage on the video game industry. Next gen is going to be the most critical point in gaming and it is up to the gamers to decide what happens with gaming. We must punish bad practices at all costs; which is why Capcom is in a bad financial situation and why Microsoft had to reverse those horrible DRM policies for the Xbox One.

Good post. Is really up to consumers to decide who to give there money to, and (more importantly) who not to give money to. It's how capitalism works.

 

[Optimus Lime]

In response to the whole 'games journalism cannot die, for it hath never lived' people:

https://archive.org/stream/zzap64-magazine-008/ZZap_64_Issue_008_1985_Dec#page/n19/mode/2up

Once upon a time, game journalism absolutely existed, and was absolutely permitted to be critical of major releases. Claiming that the current situation where 'journalism' is nothing more than P.R has existed from the start is simply not true.

 

[Sanke__]

I cant believe "journalists" have gotten so used to not disclosing information for games that they think it is ok to not disclose information on new 400 and 500 dollar consoles being released at nearly the same time. Consumers have a right to be able to make an informed decision. I used to think it was crazy but I am at about 85% convinced that this will be the last console generation. Expecting hardware to last for 8 years is insane. That is why all of this is such a big deal, its been 8 fucking years of this console generation.

 

[Stripper13]

but you can't and there would only be bitching if the number of nuggets was being withheld

Thank you. It's not that bad that some of these companies choose to not spruik certain elements of their featureset... but I think it's worth talking about the fact that some of these companies are actively moving to obfuscate and withhold information.

 

[Logash]

I don't think that game journalist even call themselves journalist. Alot of them complain about being called that. Their job is to get information out there and if they need to sign an NDA to be part of the first group of sites to share that product with the world then I don't see the issue. I don't think it's fair to compare them with their movie or serious news counter parts.

 

[JesseEwiak]

You just described the job of someone in Public Relations or Marketing...almost to a tee. Why don't they just cut out the middle man?

No, PR or marketing doesn't criticize at all. I have people I know who review films. Guess what, they don't release their review or publicly comment on how good or bad a movie is until the 'embargo date' on that film. Are they marketing or PR because they follow the rules to see another set of movies? They've never been turned away because they said a previous movie is crap.

 

[Optimus Lime]

No, no, but a magazine with a circulation of 16 people in Tanzania really took it to Sega! So it was a Golden Age! *goes back in my Cocoon of Nostalgia*

Your cocoon contains factually incorrect information.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

It's the reason I get all my gaming news from GAF.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

In response to the whole 'games journalism cannot die, for it hath never lived' people:

https://archive.org/stream/zzap64-magazine-008/ZZap_64_Issue_008_1985_Dec#page/n19/mode/2up

Once upon a time, game journalism absolutely existed, and was absolutely permitted to be critical of major releases. Claiming that the current situation where 'journalism' is nothing more than P.R has existed from the start is simply not true.

Games media still rip on games that suck. That's never been an issue.

 

[Pain]

Microsoft happened to this industry.

They've brought some great things to this industry and some bad.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I don't think that game journalist even call themselves journalist. Alot of them complain about being called that. Their job is to get information out there and if they need to sign an NDA to be part of the first group of sites to share that product with the world then I don't see the issue. I don't think it's fair to compare them with their move or serious news counter parts.

For real... Real journalism is not something that really happens in entertainment industries.

It's the reason I get all my gaming news from GAF.

Which gets all their gaming news from other websites...

 

[Racer1977]

Would it really be a roaring success? You really think that

A website that was as insightful as Neogaf, yes, it would be an industry leader.

Two dozen identikit sites with the same PR/news, previews & reviews are of little interest. At most, I will scan the scores of a game I'm particularly interested in, to get a broad overview of it's reception, I'm not going to read every bit of content these sites produce.

On the other hand, I do digest a huge amount of news/views from this site, precisely because it's insightful, it is what's missing in the rest of the games media.

This is not about impatient gamers wanting news ahead of time, it's about games journalism being critical and investigative (when needs be), rather than towing the corporate line to the detriment of consumers.

 

[Optimus Lime]

Games media still rip on games that suck. That's never been an issue.

The games media is now *extremely* lenient towards major label releases by the big players in the industry. At the time, Domark was a huge force in the European scene.

Can you honestly imagine IGN giving the latest CoD a seriously low score?

 

[Mentok]

I think the issue is in the labelling. You are comparing video game "journalism" to other mediums. Let's ignore the fact that there is also a bias or spin to "journalistic integrity", you are negating the fact that those people are paid by corporations for investigative news and to act as whistleblowers, whereas video game reporters are being paid to be conduits of information to spread out to the masses. It's a different structure from top to bottom.

 

[Stripper13]

I cant believe "journalists" have gotten so used to not disclosing information for games that they think it is ok to not disclose information on new 400 and 500 dollar consoles being released at nearly the same time. Consumers have a right to be able to make an informed decision. I used to think it was crazy but I am at about 85% convinced that this will be the last console generation. Expecting hardware to last for 8 years is insane. That is why all of this is such a big deal, its been 8 fucking years of this console generation.

Agreed. I think it's pretty clear after the MS-DRM situation that research, information & voting with your dollar is important - at least in making a company work for it's success. So why can't someone give me a straight answer and keep me up to date on industry rumblings and announcements - both good AND bad.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

The secrecy is the worst part imo, weeks before launch and still aint seen a damn thing from many 3rd party or not even enough. I want to see what im getting.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Microsoft happened to this industry.

They've brought some great things to this industry and some bad.

I bet you could find plenty of people who worked in the press pre-Microsoft to bitch about the tactics of Sony, Nintendo, Capcom, Sega, and all the rest. Microsoft is just the bad guy this time around.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

No, PR or marketing doesn't criticize at all. I have people I know who review films. Guess what, they don't release their review or publicly comment on how good or bad a movie is until the 'embargo date' on that film. Are they marketing or PR because they follow the rules to see another set of movies? They've never been turned away because they said a previous movie is crap.

True. But if a member of the film media did some digging and found out that a huge, upcoming blockbuster was having problems on set, and the director was about to be fired, would he go on twitter and make cryptic tweets about it? Or would it just show up as a story in Deadline?

You are right though in that in those industries, especially movies, there seems to be a big separation between the critics and the journalists. Nobody ever expected Siskel and Ebert to break stories and give you insider information.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I get marketing (it's my career in fact!). I know that McDonald's should be allowed to spin positives where ever possible.

(...)

Honest to God, if it wasn't for CBOAT (and maybe even famousmortimer) I'd be fucking done with this industry right now.

Thoughts GAF?

tl;dr - journalism is dead.

My thought is that your opinion is inconsistent and you want the opposite of what your job creates. Choose one, but you can't have both.

Particularly with naming CBOAT and just how extremely uptight Microsoft PR / marketing is, if not the company as a whole.

 

[unbias]

You've nailed it. At the end of the day, it is the gamers who decide what they want to get and who they will give money to. If the gamers had inform themselves and stand up for what is right for gaming, this generation could have been the very best generation ever made. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Tell me that companies like Capcom, EA, Activision and Microsoft seeing the people who bitched about Sonic's green eyes and long spikes in Sonic 4, the people who obsess over technical visuals instead of focusing on discussing the game play (see the Call of Duty Xbox One 720p thread) people defending companies based on brand loyalty and not because of what they're contributing to gaming, and most importantly, people who whine about a game doing this and that to them and still buy said game that screw them over and did not think that if they screw over gamers for more money that it would work? Of course they would see such an immature audience as something to reap from; it was after all, more money.

As long as gamers continue to accept bad practices in the video game industry, the problems within the video game industry will continue to come up. That is why gamers need to stop whining about other people giving criticism towards a company and stand up for what is right for gaming. Should we fail to do so, next gen will do irreparable damage on the video game industry. Next gen is going to be the most critical point in gaming and it is up to the gamers to decide what happens with gaming. We must punish bad practices at all costs; which is why Capcom is in a bad financial situation and why Microsoft had to reverse those horrible DRM policies for the Xbox One.

This post seems to be self contradictory... The game industry as of late hasn't been getting more healthy. The consumers ARE talking, that are buying less games, taking less risks with their money, while the big publishers have not been healthy for quite awhile because of the consumer pull back. This industry has a lot of malinvestment in it, and the management that runs a lot of these companies came from backgrounds not gaming or tech. The game industry isnt suffering from a lot of games, but a lack of friendly consumer practices, which are continually getting supported by everyone not consumers, with the press chiming in on a consistent basis(outside of outliers or one offs) defending practices that are not consumer friendly.

The game industry has been changing despite these companies, through indy(which is why they have been getting more and more popular) and why the PC world(including tablets and Phones) are growing. Consumers ARE changing their habits, and they are moving away from the a typical big budget games(outside of the select few, like COD).

Consumers can not change the culture of a company or the press, all the consumer can do is watch media companies and game companies shrink and watch the industry contract(which has been happening). I'm not sure what else consumers can do in any meaningful way, outside of create social networking nightmares for them(which has been happening as well).

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Fanboys and Social media make the companies scared to show anything less that perfect, which leads to a lot of stuff being kept in the dark until the last minute.
It sucks, but I do understand why they do it.

There's a real sense of "baying for blood" with the XBONE, much like there was for the PS3 around it's launch. I can't blame MS for being reluctant to feed these assholes.

 

[outunderthestars]

The secrecy is the worst part imo, weeks before launch and still aint seen a damn thing from many 3rd party or not even enough. I want to see what im getting.

Then don't support the pattern by buying a system at launch.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

What gets me the most are these 'journalists' acting like they're in some kind of exclusive in-the-know club by teasing us with big news.

 

[Stripper13]

I think the issue is in the labelling. You are comparing video game "journalism" to other mediums. Let's ignore the fact that there is also a bias or spin to "journalistic integrity", you ard negating the fact that those people are paid by corporations for investigative news and to act as whistleblowers, whereas video game reporters are being paid to be conduits of information to spread out to the masses. It's a different structure from top to bottom.

Right - which is why I was asking for thoughts.

I don't have the answer - and I'm fulling aware of the reasons that these sites don't/shouldn't call their employees 'journalists'.

 

[JesseEwiak]

The games media is now *extremely* lenient towards major label releases by the big players in the industry. At the time, Domark was a huge force in the European scene.

Can you honestly imagine IGN giving the latest CoD a seriously low score?

Most CoD are 'good' games, going by their scoring rubric and actual reality. You may not like them (just like I don't like a few of the games that are loved by GAF), but they were still 'good' games. The truth of the matter, most AAA games these days are good games, especially compared to the varying degrees of quality from previous generations.