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What is with you guys and manly men
- Thread starter sprsk
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SolidSnakex
Member
nitewulf said:
It wouldn't bother me if they did that as long as the overall character designs were good (I like Rikku's FFX design). One of my favorite RPG's last gen had characters wearing no armor at all, they looked like this
I don't really see the big deal with armor. Sure it makes sense in some cases, but its not something that needs to be in every RPG out there.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
sp0rsk said:
...
Ash Housewares
The Mountain Jew
I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all outta bubble gum
Late Stage Marxist
Member
Good call. Baofu is still one of my favourite characters in a video game.SolidSnakex said:It wouldn't bother me if they did that as long as the overall character designs were good (I like Rikku's FFX design). One of my favorite RPG's last gen had characters wearing no armor at all, they looked like this
I don't really see the big deal with armor. Sure it makes sense in some cases, but its not something that needs to be in every RPG out there.
i specifically mentioned i dont like the 80's metal look, didnt i? wizards with robes dont make sense either, but perhaps make more sense than a 14 year old androgynous boy.
just asking him to use a period here and there, and the proper exclamation points, kid. my brain expects the sentences to go on, but they just end.
it complained to me, poor thing.
thats a different issue. i dont find this vaan/tidus to be good designs to begin with. the persona games are in a different league all together. the ones you posted are totally 'mod'. square would never dare to put such designs on FF games. the persona dude is gutsy, brilliant and in a league of his own.
as for the rest, ill get to you after work. laters.
keeblerdrow
Member
God, no.
Einhorn is Finkle. Finkle is Einhorn!
Einhorn is Finkle. Finkle is Einhorn!
Red Scarlet
Member
So that's Bridget..I thought that was a girl character from the only other picture I've seen..what game is he? from? KOF something?
Red Scarlet
Member
Yeah, soakrates told me..you had some weird av of him before.
Red Scarlet
Member
Not avs, just posted gifs like that one up there.
Attack You
Member
This thread is lacking pics of the Man Festival from Shadow Hearts 2. I mean it.
Tidus annoyed me at times in FFX, but that was because of all the whining. He just seemed kinda premature.
I don't care how the character looks, I care about the personality. However, the overly feminine men tend to have personalities I don't really dig that much...
That Vaan picture is just wrong :lol
I don't care how the character looks, I care about the personality. However, the overly feminine men tend to have personalities I don't really dig that much...
That Vaan picture is just wrong :lol
wizards tend to wear robes because:
1. they are enchanted and thus carry some protection
2. wizards require free movement of their limbs in casting spells and wearing armor hinders that.
barbarians don't need armor because the idea is they've spent their entire lives training their body to be their armor. Barbarians require fast movement speed and so would only wear leather armor at the most but they don't need it because they have create a physique so powerful that their skin and muscles offer more protection than leather armor ever could.
Its stuff like this that doesn't make sense from a real world view perspective, but has been accepted as a sort of fantasy dogma.
as vaan has obviously not spent his life training in barbaric ways, he should be wearing something to protect his chest.
1. they are enchanted and thus carry some protection
2. wizards require free movement of their limbs in casting spells and wearing armor hinders that.
barbarians don't need armor because the idea is they've spent their entire lives training their body to be their armor. Barbarians require fast movement speed and so would only wear leather armor at the most but they don't need it because they have create a physique so powerful that their skin and muscles offer more protection than leather armor ever could.
Its stuff like this that doesn't make sense from a real world view perspective, but has been accepted as a sort of fantasy dogma.
as vaan has obviously not spent his life training in barbaric ways, he should be wearing something to protect his chest.
SolidSnakex
Member
nitewulf said:
I don't like Vaan or Tidus designs either, but its not because they're too feminine or not wearing armor. I like Squalls design alot and people say he's too feminine and he also doens't wear armor.
And mod as in modern? I don't think they'd do that because people already jump on them enough about FF7, FF8 ect. not being fantasy because they aren't medieval. I'd like them to try that way but I know they won't.
nitewulf said:
With what goes in most RPG's chest armor isn't going to protect you. If you can suspend disblief enough for enchanted robes and chest armor protecting you from extreme damage, then no armor at all shouldn't be much of a stretch.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
crunker99 said:
I hate 'em both.
All video game men should be short, pudgy, caricatures. With manly moustaches.
I've spent I don't know how many years playing fantasy games and reading books and such. All my life. And all the good ones can generally agree on many things, like the necessity of armor. They tweak the "rules" here and there, but for the most part, they agree.
They have all combined in a lot of peoples minds to create a general set of fantasy principles. Its not really a suspension of disbelief as it is changing the expected physical rules of the world.
And for FF to then go and say, "meh, we do what we want," grates against a lot of people because what they do doesn't make sense.
A lot of the "fantasy laws" don't make sense at first glance either, but those rules have had thousands of stories built on explaining those ideas to the point where they make perfect sense to someone who has been immersed in that world. Whereas FF just doesn't really care about making sense in the first place.
They have all combined in a lot of peoples minds to create a general set of fantasy principles. Its not really a suspension of disbelief as it is changing the expected physical rules of the world.
And for FF to then go and say, "meh, we do what we want," grates against a lot of people because what they do doesn't make sense.
A lot of the "fantasy laws" don't make sense at first glance either, but those rules have had thousands of stories built on explaining those ideas to the point where they make perfect sense to someone who has been immersed in that world. Whereas FF just doesn't really care about making sense in the first place.
slayn said:
Likewise, Rikku's an Al Bhed thief who presumably relies on agility as her primary defense, so for her to dress in a way that leaves her as unencumbered as possible is entirely believable, IMO. As for Vaan, who knows what sort of training he's had, or what sort of fighting techniques are native to his world? Perhaps he's the swashbuckler type. Or maybe heavy armor is restricted to the knight classes and the nobility. Hell, maybe his mother dunked him in the River Styx as an infant and he's invulnerable everyplace but his heel! We don't know! Why is it that you can unquestioningly accept Western swords-and-sorcery archetypes like this, but characters that don't fit neatly into those categories send up a red flag? What about all those characters in chambara series who wander Japan, fighting in nothing heavier than their traveling clothes? Shouldn't they be wearing something to protect their chests, too?
But it's that sensibility that in part informs the work of Japanese designers, in the same way the timeworn traditions of heroic fantasy tend to shape the creations of their Western counterparts. If you can accept an unarmored ronin (or swashbuckler, for that matter) travelling around fighting things with a sword, then aside from your aesthetic preferences, WTF is the problem with Vaan? 
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
rapes all of the above
Tellaerin said:
Come on, she may be fantastic to look at, granted, but all these girls in video games who wear like a handkerchief and a bikini bottom for an outfit, you cannot tell me that is believeable female garb. Im sure if one of our governments operative were to wear something like that on a mission they would be pinched pretty fast or ditch it for something more useful. If we are going to suspend disbelief, fine, I understand, but outside of making a more entertaining game, there can be no doubt it has any intrinsic value.
vaan has two problems.
his girlyishness, and his clothing. They combine to form a character that does not look battle ready at all. He's wearing what looks to be armored greaves, but no shirt? What does he do? Scream, 'Thats my purse!' and kick people in the groin a lot?
Even someone whose fighting style is based on agility would not leave any of their body uncovered. Not armored, maybe, but they would at least be wearing some sort of thick cloth that offers protection against small nicks and cuts while not hampering mobility.
furthermore, someone based on agility (the only real reason for not wearing light armor) would not be wearing heavy metal armor on their legs.
his girlyishness, and his clothing. They combine to form a character that does not look battle ready at all. He's wearing what looks to be armored greaves, but no shirt? What does he do? Scream, 'Thats my purse!' and kick people in the groin a lot?
Even someone whose fighting style is based on agility would not leave any of their body uncovered. Not armored, maybe, but they would at least be wearing some sort of thick cloth that offers protection against small nicks and cuts while not hampering mobility.
furthermore, someone based on agility (the only real reason for not wearing light armor) would not be wearing heavy metal armor on their legs.
Attack You
Member
crunker99 said:
slayn said:
Sums up my problems with most characters right there. I can even forgive male chara designs for being effeminate before I dismiss them for their wretched battle gear.
SolidSnakex
Member
slayn said:
So there's an explanation as to how wearing chest armors protects your entire body? This is a genre where wearing certain rings can protect you from the same things that armor would, so what's the point of them wearing armor?
I'll stop complaining when you show me vaan is wearing a ring that applies the ability "invulnerable to stabs in the chest, but not the legs."
anyone going on any sort of adventure/hike/whatever even if they never plan to fight anything would be moronic to not have protection. Would you not raise an eyebrow at someone going on a mountain hike or taking a stroll through a thick forest without covering their skin?
the chest is a very large and vulnerable spot to be hit for a human. Too many vital ograns floating around in there. Its what you protect first except for maybe your head. The problem with helmets is they can hamper vision, which someone might not like when fighting. But there really is no good reason not to protect your chest. It doesn't have any negative like vision or mobility other than the sheer weight of it which isn't really a problem with lighter armor.
anyone going on any sort of adventure/hike/whatever even if they never plan to fight anything would be moronic to not have protection. Would you not raise an eyebrow at someone going on a mountain hike or taking a stroll through a thick forest without covering their skin?
the chest is a very large and vulnerable spot to be hit for a human. Too many vital ograns floating around in there. Its what you protect first except for maybe your head. The problem with helmets is they can hamper vision, which someone might not like when fighting. But there really is no good reason not to protect your chest. It doesn't have any negative like vision or mobility other than the sheer weight of it which isn't really a problem with lighter armor.
Late Stage Marxist
Member
Kazuma Kaneko and Yoshitaka Amano both design male characters that aren't always exactly 'manly', yet somehow don't manage to look as happy as Nomura's.
SolidSnakex
Member
slayn said:
Probably, but then i'd laugh when they told me they were going to fight monsters. This isn't real life or anything close to it, real life cirumstances don't apply to this genre. They're trying to make their characters stylish, and armor for the most part isn't apart of their planning. If they were trying to be realistic then yah i'd say it doesn't make much sense to go out fighting without some sort of armor to protect yourself. But its not so I don't worry about stuff like that with RPG's. The main character in my favorite RPG this gen looks like this, so armor isn't much of a big deal to me in these games.
Is his character design also seen as bad because he's not super manly or wearing any body armor?
crunker99 said:
If you're arguing protective value, full-body cloth covering's not going to offer much more protection against a blade than a bikini top and a pair of short shorts is. And in a tropical/ocean environment, the bikini and short shorts are arguably more practical, unless you enjoy getting heatstroke.
crunker99 said:
Rikku's an impulsive teen and a thief, not a government agent, and her clothing reflects that. This is neither here nor there, though. My real point was that it should be no more difficult to suspend their disbelief for a character like Rikku than it is for Conan. The latter's accepted without a second thought by a lot of people simply because it's an image they've seen for years in Western fantasy. Spend two minutes thinking about it and Rikku's garb seems no more ridiculous than a man fighting in nothing more than a pair of fuzzy boots and an animal pelt draped over his privates.
slayn said:
Yes, because in fantasy settings where warriors run around with enchanted, hyper-keen swords and mages toss around fireballs and lightning bolts with abandon, wearing heavy cloth is going to provide you with so much protection.
Hell, you might as well go naked for all the good a little extra fabric would do. And sure, you could enchant that cloth for better protection if the setting allows, but in that case, why not just wear an enchanted ring or bracers or something that would provide the same protection instead?slayn said:
This is true, though it's possible there's some justification for it in the context of the game. I'm willing to give Square-Enix the benefit of the doubt until I play it for myself. Then again, Vaan's 'pretty-boy' look and lack of a breastplate didn't bother me, either, so perhaps I'm just a little less motivated to nitpick.
..pakbeka..
Member
keeblerdrow said:
a winner is you
short of someone going through the fantasy 'barbarian training' I mentioned previously, I'd be annoyed at a main character wearing nothing but boots and animal pelt as well.
I'd be perfectly ok if they could give me a completel explanation as why vaan has to wear what he does no more/no less but given the history of FF they aren't going to do it. Vaan's gear has no purpose other than to make girls drool. And that is extremely irritating. Just as I find Rikku equally irritating in her bikini outfit meant to make guys drool.
vaan, conan, and rikku all suck as characters.
And no, I don't require everyone to be in heavy armor. I still like the design of Squall. but then given his character and the world he at least kinda makes sense. He's wearing full clothing and a leather jacket for protection. He wields a sword/gun combination in what is then obiously a higher mobility combat.
Coupled with the fact that he's at a school and not a heavy military campaign it all sorta comes togethor. Normal clothing that still offers lightweight protection in combat. Furthermore, most of the story sequences/quests quests that I remember were more about infiltration/sneaking through guards/assassinations. Thus wearing lightweight material makes all the more sense.
given square though, that was not their intention. They just wanted to make 'cool looking' sex symbols and in ff8 it just happened to work itself out for me. And it is *possible* there will be a decent explanation for Vaan. But given that I can't think of any possible situation where vaan's clothing would be acceptable and square's general not caring of make their characters make sense, I highly highly doubt it.
I'd be perfectly ok if they could give me a completel explanation as why vaan has to wear what he does no more/no less but given the history of FF they aren't going to do it. Vaan's gear has no purpose other than to make girls drool. And that is extremely irritating. Just as I find Rikku equally irritating in her bikini outfit meant to make guys drool.
vaan, conan, and rikku all suck as characters.
And no, I don't require everyone to be in heavy armor. I still like the design of Squall. but then given his character and the world he at least kinda makes sense. He's wearing full clothing and a leather jacket for protection. He wields a sword/gun combination in what is then obiously a higher mobility combat.
Coupled with the fact that he's at a school and not a heavy military campaign it all sorta comes togethor. Normal clothing that still offers lightweight protection in combat. Furthermore, most of the story sequences/quests quests that I remember were more about infiltration/sneaking through guards/assassinations. Thus wearing lightweight material makes all the more sense.
given square though, that was not their intention. They just wanted to make 'cool looking' sex symbols and in ff8 it just happened to work itself out for me. And it is *possible* there will be a decent explanation for Vaan. But given that I can't think of any possible situation where vaan's clothing would be acceptable and square's general not caring of make their characters make sense, I highly highly doubt it.
slayn said:
Well said. I can't believe anyone would defend the atrocious character design that is Vaan, and doing so with equally bad examples like Conan and Rikku. He's eye candy for all the FF fans into the whole androgynous/metrosexual/yaoi/effeminate Japanese boy/Orlando Bloom look. It really sucks that the characters like Auron are the damn exception now. Imagine a FFVI remake. Square-Enix would probably turn every male character in his 30s or older into a girlish teenager. Just to appease some stupid fans. =|
SolidSnakex
Member
Jado said:
I really doubt they'd have to change all that much.
SolidSnakex
Member
Why would they? They didn't mess with Auron any. The characters that surround the main character generally don't have the same boyish look they have. You consider Vaan and then these which seem to be the other 2 main male characters in FF12
I'm confused, do you consider locke to be the main character or something?
Jado was complaining that if they did a remake of ff6, they'd change all the male characters into vaan like characters. I don't know that they would, and I don't care as square is never going to make a remake of ff6.
You, as per your usual style, select the one slightly feminine (though that has more to do with amano's style than the actual character) character and present it as if all the ff6 characters were just as young and girly as current ff stars and this is nothing "new."
I merely provided a counter example as most ff6 characters weren't like that at all. Edgar is supposed to be a regal pretty boy. Locke, while definitely not being muscular, is never really presented as girly except for that one picture. The rest just aren't.
And I have no problem with those other two characters, only vaan atm.
Jado was complaining that if they did a remake of ff6, they'd change all the male characters into vaan like characters. I don't know that they would, and I don't care as square is never going to make a remake of ff6.
You, as per your usual style, select the one slightly feminine (though that has more to do with amano's style than the actual character) character and present it as if all the ff6 characters were just as young and girly as current ff stars and this is nothing "new."
I merely provided a counter example as most ff6 characters weren't like that at all. Edgar is supposed to be a regal pretty boy. Locke, while definitely not being muscular, is never really presented as girly except for that one picture. The rest just aren't.
And I have no problem with those other two characters, only vaan atm.
Jado said:
It's mainly because most of the actiony stuff that comes from Japan are targetted at teens...
it's a shame they don't recognise the fact that most of their fanbase have grown up, but would still appreciate something they can relate to; which underaged brats saving the world isn't.
SolidSnakex
Member
slayn said:
I wasn't saying that all the characters in the game are young and girly. I was pointing out that its nothing new for the series to have characters that do look like that. Some people try to act like Nomura started it, but it was already going because its part of Amano's style. The series generally has a good mix between older and teen characters so I don't really so why its such a problem.
it wasn't a problem in ff6 because locke
a. dressed normally for the most part in what I would expect a common thief to dress
b. didn't act like a teenager
c. wasn't the center of the story
and ff4 before it didn't have anyone like that at all that I can recall. Hell the main character starts at as captain of the air force of the strongest kingdom in the world.
It only became the *focus* once nomura took over. Though I'm not one to blame specific people for something I don't like in a game. I wouldn't even know the name nomura if it weren't for these arguments =P
a. dressed normally for the most part in what I would expect a common thief to dress
b. didn't act like a teenager
c. wasn't the center of the story
and ff4 before it didn't have anyone like that at all that I can recall. Hell the main character starts at as captain of the air force of the strongest kingdom in the world.
It only became the *focus* once nomura took over. Though I'm not one to blame specific people for something I don't like in a game. I wouldn't even know the name nomura if it weren't for these arguments =P
crunker99 said:
I believe there's value, if you can wipe out a squad of decked US spec'ops while wearing such, there's no doubt about your inherent superiority. I think it speaks volumes, about a character's skill and innate strength, that they can go out to battle in a very simple attire.
flarkminator
Member
All these posts and not one shot of the best female character ever
