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What script changes were made in MGS1 that upset Kojima?
- Thread starter Synth_floyd
- Start date
matrix-cat
Member
Every single one of them? You find it totally unreasonable that a person raised in Chinatown by Chinese parents would have any hint of a non-American accent? She's not exactly unintelligible.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sx7yttJm0I
Parts 2-12 can be found in the sidebar or on that account.
Im not a fan of Blaustein. He comes off as arrogant to me and he definitely has this feeling of bittnerness towards Konami/Kojima/Metal Gear/whatever so I do wonder if a lot of what he says is exaggerated to get his point across but I cant ignore that MGS1 is the best translation in the series.
bernardobri
Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
Come on, guys. Big Boss is just an another homage to cinema (in this case, the film starring Bruce Lee).
Mei Ling having an accent is plausible considering that she was raised by native chinese parents, so I guess she could have picked up the accent for a while. (Now, the fact that she went all around the MIT and the U.S Air Force without losing it is somehow strange....)
On the other hand, Naomi having a british accent doesn't make fucking sense considering that she's a rhodesian that during the 80s went to the states. (Although her past is filled with smoke since there's not a lot of information about that aside that she was raised by Gray Fox, who knows where)
Hibino said that the "russian composers" (probably the reps of the label that owns the Sviridov music) went to Konami stating that they stole the music.
If you ask me, probably Konami resolved the issue behind the scenes and stopped using the motif in order to avoid problems.
Mei Ling having an accent is plausible considering that she was raised by native chinese parents, so I guess she could have picked up the accent for a while. (Now, the fact that she went all around the MIT and the U.S Air Force without losing it is somehow strange....)
On the other hand, Naomi having a british accent doesn't make fucking sense considering that she's a rhodesian that during the 80s went to the states. (Although her past is filled with smoke since there's not a lot of information about that aside that she was raised by Gray Fox, who knows where)
Hibino said that the "russian composers" (probably the reps of the label that owns the Sviridov music) went to Konami stating that they stole the music.
If you ask me, probably Konami resolved the issue behind the scenes and stopped using the motif in order to avoid problems.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I don't want to go all "I'm an expert" here, but I always thought it was an honor thing. The piece was (probably) plagiarized right under his nose, and he didn't find out about it until some guy came straight to him to complain about it. A lot of things in his games were pretty much ripped out of other works, but in those cases I would think he knew about those from the start. Being confronted about plagiarism that slipped into his game without him knowing might have made him feel ashamed enough to drop the MGS theme.
But later I think someone said Konami higher-ups were the ones who got rid of the MGS theme, so that could just be wrong.
crackhead_bob
Member
Yep. I think most asians can tell what is an offensive stereotype and what isn't. And to respond to a poster who said that American kids raised in Chinatowns don't speak in thick accents, obviously hasn't met every second generation asian american raised in asian communities. They exist, especially when the families are heavily insular and tradition bound.
Alot of Latino communities produce offspring who retain much of the dialect of their native culture. How do you account for that? Or the decidedly black dialect within the black community, and I'm not talking about ghetto slang or ebonics either. One doesn't need a television screen to know that Barack Obama is black. You hear it in his voice.
IrrelevantNotch
Banned
Popcorn.gif
It's hard to tell if MGS1's localization comes off as the series' best because it was translated well, or if it was just the most tightly produced and well-oiled MGS story in the series. I'm not sure if the "action movie feel" was his
work or Kojima's or both.
Blaustein probably did put more passion into the localization than the translators in subsequent entries, but his work did get cheesy at times. Still, the guy also did the original localization of SOTN, a work of genius I have nothing but praise for.
work or Kojima's or both.
Blaustein probably did put more passion into the localization than the translators in subsequent entries, but his work did get cheesy at times. Still, the guy also did the original localization of SOTN, a work of genius I have nothing but praise for.
Seasoned Badger
Member
Well, the fans were just not on their side and it would have created a lot of bad publicity if they didn't change it. There are tons of video game music that are plagiarized but fans call them homages, tributes, inspired by. etc.
I met someone in college who was of Chinese descent with a very bad accent. A year later I was shocked to find out that he wasn't an international student at all, He was in fact a U.S. citizen born and raised in New York.
Synth_floyd
Banned
The character of Mei Ling was American born and I think she was supposed to be an Ivy League educated genius or something like that. They said the main reason they gave her a Chinese accent was to make it so that her voice wasn't just a bland female voice.
KojiKnight
Member
Debates on translation and localization... man this all brings me back to my fansubing days about 10 years ago.
Anyways, not that my opinion matters on this subject... but the way we always handled a translation was to not keep things too literal. Too literal of a translation often makes absolutely no sense... either in context, or out of. That said, the final product had to match the original in meaning. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone that hasn't translated large blocks of text between two languages...
Basically though, Kojima wants his translations done as if they were a science where as most translation is actually an art. It's why google translate will never be able to replace a thinking human being.
Anyways, not that my opinion matters on this subject... but the way we always handled a translation was to not keep things too literal. Too literal of a translation often makes absolutely no sense... either in context, or out of. That said, the final product had to match the original in meaning. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone that hasn't translated large blocks of text between two languages...
Basically though, Kojima wants his translations done as if they were a science where as most translation is actually an art. It's why google translate will never be able to replace a thinking human being.
Oh snap damn lol,mgs2 has to have one the worst stories I've seen in a videogame but that doesn't stop it from being enjoyable sometimes the cornyness is appealing.
crackhead_bob
Member
If Blaustein had done MGS2, what changes or ommisions would he have done? I particularly found the Raiden/Rose conversations to be embarrassingly cheesy, and I can't even be sure if it was because Quinton Flynn is such a horrible voice actor, or that the material supplied to him made his performance worse. I imagine he might have tried changing Fatman's name to something more esoteric sounding.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Snake to Liquid:
Synth_floyd
Banned
Box of Bunnies
Banned
KojiKnight
Member
Is that real? I'm pretty sure this famous pic is fake:
Dear God I wish images like that are fake... unfortunately most of them are probably real... Ran into many subs of that "quality"
One should never speak for another person... That said, Fatman was one of the names of the two nuclear weapons dropped on Japan at the end of WW2. In a series about military stuff, this likely wouldn't have been changed. The main thing that should be changed in a localization is flow and "readability". If actors can't say a line in such a way that it seems natural, then no matter how great (or poor) the actor is, it can't be fixed.
In all honesty, it's been so long since I played MGS2 I couldn't comment on it. That said, helping time and edit a half dozen animes as a hobby hardly qualifies me as an expert on the subject
Synth_floyd
Banned
LOL I heard that was just made by someone to make fun of fansubs, rather than actually in a fansub.
KojiKnight
Member
If you're ever bored, do a search for "anime junkies". They were around for years, and were known for their very fast, very terrible translations... including a very famous line they translated from ghost in the shell... I'd give you the line, but I'm afraid you might actually google it and thus be put on various FBI watch lists.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
That's basically the only thing I disliked. Snake was an old man out of retirement. Why was he flipping all over the place?
Edit:
nvm
KojiKnight
Member
Hardly an old man. Just old for the general age of a soldier. If snakes was born in 72, that's puts him at what... 33 or so at the time of MGS?
But yes, Twin Snakes seemed like an attempt to put MGS1 on par with everything after, and that's not necessarily meaning to put it up, it could be read as bringing it down. Still, love is love.
crackhead_bob
Member
One should never speak for another person... That said, Fatman was one of the names of the two nuclear weapons dropped on Japan at the end of WW2. In a series about military stuff, this likely wouldn't have been changed. The main thing that should be changed in a localization is flow and "readability". If actors can't say a line in such a way that it seems natural, then no matter how great (or poor) the actor is, it can't be fixed.
In all honesty, it's been so long since I played MGS2 I couldn't comment on it. That said, helping time and edit a half dozen animes as a hobby hardly qualifies me as an expert on the subject
I know why they used the name, but I could see Blaustein having an issue with it, especially given how hidden the elaboration is.
As far as localization goes, I have a real difficult time seeing past Flynn's v.o. performance. He was just craptastic awful to the point where I didn't care about the Raiden character. He just made him more unlikable than he actually was.
Lightning Lord
Banned
I know a guy who was born in Britain and moved to the US as a child, and as he got older his accent gradually changed to the point where you wouldn't even know he was British unless he told you.
For a character like Mei Ling all she would need is to grow up in an area with a high Asian population in the US.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Wow, you're totally right. Why did I think he was so old...
crackhead_bob
Member
I always took the ageism factor more as irony early on. But they eventually pushed the theme to a literal level by MGS4.
If only that was the case...
Come visit Vancouver sometime.
If an Asian individual is raised to speak their parents' native language as their first language, the accent is likely to stick.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
If you grew up in America from a young age, even if bilingual, it's very very rare to have an accent for either language assuming you worked at being fluent in both. The only reason someone born and raised in the US would retain a heavy accent would be if they avoided speaking much English overall. Mei Ling having a heavy accent was always ludicrous given her background - someone wanting to join the US military like she did, joining ROTC and everything, is likely going to identify more with being an American growing up and make more of an effort growing up to be fluent.
Only if they primarily speak the first language and actively avoid speaking much English. Plenty of asians here in California who speak fluently in both their parents language as well as English without a hint of accent in either despite learning their parents' language first. I've observed plenty of the same in Hawaii.
You don't speak for all of us. Most of my friends agreed the accent was stupid given her background, especially to those of us growing up both asian and with the US military.
Noone's saying they don't. But given Mei Ling's background, its highly unlikely for her case.
bigboss370
Member
MrCunningham
Member
Jeremy Blaustein's work with Scott T. Hards on Snatcher for the Sega CD was pretty amazing for it's time. It really put a lot of Japanese game translations to shame from that era (as well as the following years later) I always felt that Blaustein did a great job translating Hideo's work. .
But from what I understand, Hideo didn't directly read the script, someone else pointed out to him that there were changes and that caused a lot more shit than there probably should've been.
WAR recon zero
Banned
It's in Document of MGS2.
now THAT scene makes sense
1970 Chevelle SS
Neo Member
Naomi say's she was found in Zimbabwe which was was owned by England which gives it good credibility for her accent. Mei Ling's accent is really thick i'll give you that but it is much more adorable than the plain boring old TTS version.
Twin Snakes was directed by a friend of Kojima's by the name of Ryuhei Kitamura who is known for the movies Versus and Azumi.
I attended a panel he held several years back and when he was asked about Twin Snakes he basically said he was given free reign with the project and that's why it ended up as over the top as it did.
Not to say it wasn't in line with the later games in that respect (obviously opinion based) but that wasn't the intention in making it.
345triangle
Member
precisely. and considering that she speaks with flawless grammar about nuclear weapons and eastern philosophy and so on, she is clearly someone who's used fluent english throughout her life. mei ling's accent is entirely implausible and, even if theoretically possible, clearly the result of stereotyping (or, as mentioned above, the desire to make her stand out (likely both)).
i mean, this is a series where snake speaks in english when he's actually speaking russian. a regular american accent for mei ling objectively makes more sense.
Rhodesia was a British colony. Also she was white so she most likely associated with the other British there, considering it was a minority ruled country, when learning to speak. It makes perfect sense that she has a British accent.
In reference to her emigration, in the late 70's early 80's, Rhodesia transitioned to the independent country of Zimbabwe. A lot of the white population decided to leave the country during the war for independence and especially after the transition. The British governance was brutal and exploitative. But the government that replaced the British was, and continues to be; brutal, corrupt, and a master study in incompetence.
No, Kojima doesn't needlessly re-edit and add superfluous scenes to 'improve the experience' for the '***th' re-release of the game. He leaves his catalogue alone. This by itself makes him more respectful.
/I still like the original trilogy of Star Wars. Needless butchering or not.
Except that's exactly what he has done repeatedly in The Twin Snakes, Substance and Subsistence, to the point that all three are to now be considered to supersede the original versions. Snake doing a magic jump off the HIND-D's missiles is pretty close to Greedo shooting first in my book.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think he was definitely intended to be older than that, in terms of the actual narrative.
It's just that pinning down the dates in later years (ie 1972 for Enfent Terrible, 2005 for Shadow Moses) produced some interesting timeline effects.
MGS1 was all about an old soldier being pulled out of retirement. If they had actually said in the game "he's 33", that would have raised some disbelieving flags.
I'll vouch for this. I know people raised in Vancouver who still have a Chinese accent.
Hope Kojima doesn't have to hear the official German-dubbed translation of MGS1, it's super bad.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ocgU8fbAjk
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ocgU8fbAjk
Synth_floyd
Banned
LOL at people arguing over the "realism" of Mei Ling's accent. First she speaks perfect Japanese in the original. Second, this is METAL GEAR SOLID we're talking about. Nothing in it is realistic.
Well she isn't wrong. The writing is terrible.
Meh, the Metal Gear games went and stuffed plenty of nonsensical Matrix esque cutscenes into them after MGS clear through MGS4. Its hard to argue that its out of place when the series jumped on the lol-wtf-matrix action scene bandwagon immediately following Twin Snakes.
Not an old man as previously pointed out, but he did some ridiculous moves back in the original game.
For a stealth game I want some enemies that have some good AI. The original version doesn't have that.
crackhead_bob
Member
People tend to be selective when it comes to demanding plausibility in their subject matter. I personally liked the characterization of Mei Ling and Naomi Hunter in that they helped flesh out the characters and allowed them to stand out from the other support characters in the game. All the claims of racial stereotyping are baseless, especially coming from those who have absolutely no personal investment in the issue themselves. Again, as an Asian myself, I think I can spot a depiction of racial insensitivity more acutely than others.
It's funny, because you never see them raise issues over the cliched ninja stereotyping. They're completely oblivious to those ramifications, but they're somehow self righteous over the subtle use of an accent.
It's funny, because you never see them raise issues over the cliched ninja stereotyping. They're completely oblivious to those ramifications, but they're somehow self righteous over the subtle use of an accent.
Just some personal input. From personal experience I think it would be possible for Mei Ling to have either accent, same applies to Naomi. (I know two brothers who have had similar upbringings yet they both have accents on completely different ends of the spectrum. ) I just like consistency, and when David Hayter halved his own wage to bring the original voice actors back for TTS, the accent changes make even less sense.