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What script changes were made in MGS1 that upset Kojima?
- Thread starter Synth_floyd
- Start date
Wasn't Scott Dolph the main shit stirrer with the whole MGS1 localisation? As I remember, he was sent by Kojima to sit in during the MGS1 voice recording sessions, and reported every point of translation that wasn't 1:1 with Kojima's writing back to him. I remember hearing that a big deal was made of Blaustein wanting to change the "Do you think love can bloom even on a battlefield" line, which he believed was horribly cheesy. In the end, he caved and let it in and I believe it was the thing that got him disregarded by Kojima for all future games.
Such a pity too, because MGS1 has the best localisation of the entire series, and I do attribute that game having the best voice acting of the series to his co-direction. MGS1 Hayter will always be best Hayter.
Such a pity too, because MGS1 has the best localisation of the entire series, and I do attribute that game having the best voice acting of the series to his co-direction. MGS1 Hayter will always be best Hayter.
sorry
the correct answer was: Para Medic
other correct answers would be Sigint and CQC (this "legendary" fighting style couldn't even get a real name)
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
Only The Twin Snakes changes the original story in both presentation and story content. Substance and Subsistence may have performance changes, but the story and cutscenes are 99.9999999% the same as Sons of Liberty and Snake Eater. The VR Missions and Ape Escape/Boss Rush modes and cutscene viewers are more akin to bonus features in a Criterion Collection release.
In fact, depending on your PS2 hardware, Sons of Liberty is the preferred version to play pure MGS2 because there's no discernable codec lag like Substance had due to switching between the dual layers on the DVD. Snake Eater, of course, you better play the Subsistence version BECAUSE they fix the radio lag that was in original Snake Eater (Though I don't recall it being as egregious as the old OPM demo). The originals and rereleases of MGS are much more a case of a game getting patches and bonus DLC than basically trying to rewrite history in the way that Lucas has kept up his Star Wars revisions.
I worked with an Indian guy born and raised in the USA. You'd never know it by his heavy Indian accent though.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
I'm guessing the use of "Zanzibar" instead of "Zanzibarland" was one of those changes that Kojima took offence to.
I can definitely see why Blaustein changed that name.
I can definitely see why Blaustein changed that name.
Yeah knowing kojima's affinity for making up English words when perfectly good ones already exist I can see how a translator might butt heads with him. I mean I certainly wouldn't want something with my name on it looking like it was done by someone not fluent in English. That's how a lot of kojima's names come off. In the end it works out for the better though like the dubs of old Shaw brothers kung fu movies. They were terrible put they defined the experience and made the final product so much better.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Isn't Zanzibar a country in Africa? Why would some central Asian country take that as its name? Why not call it New York? Or Vienna? And yes "Big Boss" is basically saying "we couldn't come up with a real name for the last boss in our game so we'll just call him the big boss." Or maybe they should've called him "Tough Enemy" or "Bad Dude"
All these names are pretty lame...however in the context of the Metal Gear universe they do end up working.
All these names are pretty lame...however in the context of the Metal Gear universe they do end up working.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Those are all definitely bad, but I still think Big Boss is worse than all of them except maybe CQC. Although while we're on the topic of MGS3, I think the funniest bit of an otherwise somber ending was when the guy goes YOU ARE ABOVE EVEN THE BOSS. I DUB THEE "BIG BOSS". Tears of laughter.
IDK, why would some central Asian country take Zanzibarland as its name? How many central Asian states are African states with the suffix "-land"? In fact, how many central Asian states have the suffix "-land" at all? Is there even one? I see a bucketload of "-stans".
That's just acclimatization. It's like how everybody totally doesn't notice how fucking stupid of a name XBOX is because we've been stuck with it for so long now.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Agness lost my sympathy when she compared The Wire to Dark Tower...
FlutterPuffs
Member
It's in Document of MGS2.
Not really, that's just a part of what they cut. The transition from sea to federal hall is terrible because they removed cutscenes, for example.
PetriP-TNT
Member
I always thought that there were tons of stuff cut from two parts: the decoy octopus thing (yo I am the president of united fucking states of weapon*DIES BUT NOT REALLY*s) and whole disc two: "yo backtrack the whole game because there's no way we can fit this whole second part of disc two here".
The "get the sniper rifle" part is kinda weird too, but I guess that can be just video games backtracking^TM
The "get the sniper rifle" part is kinda weird too, but I guess that can be just video games backtracking^TM
As far as the topic goes, Kojima is an idiot. MGS is well-respected and fondly looked upon because the translation made sense/removed cringe-worthy stuff and VA was good. Nobody can tell me that if MGS 2 was translated by Blaustein, with all the freedom that he had for MGS, it wouldn't have made much more sense and benefited from it. Hell, we may have even gotten better VA for Raiden and a better performance from Hayter for Snake, seeing as they're not supposed to sound ridiculously different.
I don't care if you're changing the script when the original script is not as good as the localization, which is the case for MGS.
As far as the accents go, please. They gave the characters personality. TTS is boring as shit. And Greg Eagles is sorely missed as Gray Fox. I don't even know why they changed it for TTS, seeing as Greg reprised his role as Donald Anderson. I don't mind the cutscenes, since I'm a Kitamura fan. The original is still better, but I don't find the cutscenes in TTS offensive. I think they're funny. They kinda miss the point though. I also don't get the argument that they're like the rest of the series. The only over-the-top thing I remember from Snake was dodging a bullet in MGS2, which is a simple movement and him diving after Liquid and Ray. That's not the same as:
And Agness is right about Kojima. He's a shit writer, not above fanfic level. MGS 4 is proof.
I don't care if you're changing the script when the original script is not as good as the localization, which is the case for MGS.
As far as the accents go, please. They gave the characters personality. TTS is boring as shit. And Greg Eagles is sorely missed as Gray Fox. I don't even know why they changed it for TTS, seeing as Greg reprised his role as Donald Anderson. I don't mind the cutscenes, since I'm a Kitamura fan. The original is still better, but I don't find the cutscenes in TTS offensive. I think they're funny. They kinda miss the point though. I also don't get the argument that they're like the rest of the series. The only over-the-top thing I remember from Snake was dodging a bullet in MGS2, which is a simple movement and him diving after Liquid and Ray. That's not the same as:
And Agness is right about Kojima. He's a shit writer, not above fanfic level. MGS 4 is proof.
Weltall Zero
Member
Everyone lost their accents, Nastasha as well. Made it so bland and flavorless that, combined with the stupid "supposedly cool" cutscenes, made me abandon the game like half an hour in. What a disgrace.
On topic, I always felt that MGS1's localization was one of the best in gaming history, and incredibly superior to MGS2's for example, which was almost as bland as Twin Snakes'. MGS2 also had the unfortunate handicap of having two horribly uncharismatic voice actors for its protagonist and antagonist (Raiden and Solidus), whereas MGS1's Solid and Liquid were simply magnificent.
It's less the issue that such cutscenes exist and more the fact that Snake was joining in with the over-the-top antics when he was always the more grounded one compared to everyone else around him (the most flamboyant thing he did in the original MGS1 was flipping out of the way of that tank blast).
.....am I the only one who got the Big Boss reference.
Umm... no? Although I admit I was never sure if it was solely Kojima's horrible writing and he wasn't even thinking of the movie at the time or if it was his horrible writing doing another not so subtle reference to another movie to jarringly remind the player he likes movies and he's going to let you know it goddammit whether it's smoothly woven into the game or not.
matrix-cat
Member
There are good arguments to be made about how TTS' crazy cutscenes spoil the idea that single-handedly infiltrating a heavily-guarded base and taking out a team of commandos walking talk on foot was supposed to be difficult for Snake (seriously, if he could walk on missiles why didn't he just backflip straight to the Metal Gear hangar and punch the warhead to death or something?). My biggest problem with them was that they just have shitty choreography. Some action directors have a good sense of motion and flow, of when to use slow motion and when to hold back because the speed and fluidity is the whole point. Other action directors are named Ryuhei Kitamura. Seriously, that guy sucks. Characters jump up into the air and follow completely unpredictable trajectories, he choreography is rote and boring, and he just flips the slow-mo switch at random. Guy's a hack.
So glad they didn't let him work on any of the other Metal Gears. The choreographed fights in MGS3 and 4 are legendary. I still get shivers thinking about Raiden throwing and kicking his sword into the ground to create a bouncing, whirling, portable shield against Vamp's throwing knives. How does someone come up with that? Glorious.
EDIT - I've never seen that Liquid somersault gif. What part of the game does that come from?
So glad they didn't let him work on any of the other Metal Gears. The choreographed fights in MGS3 and 4 are legendary. I still get shivers thinking about Raiden throwing and kicking his sword into the ground to create a bouncing, whirling, portable shield against Vamp's throwing knives. How does someone come up with that? Glorious.
EDIT - I've never seen that Liquid somersault gif. What part of the game does that come from?
crackhead_bob
Member
I wasn't offended by Twin Snakes either, but I thought that MGS1 was better produced. However, both pieces work just as well in the end. This whole heated debate on which version is legit has always left me scratching my head.
TheShampion
Member
Hideo Kojima is a game director first, writer second. I think it is kind of silly to go about how bad the writing in these games are, because in the end, they serve a purpose. Hearing Kojima say that games are a service, and aren't art, gives the impression that he writes these stories to appeal to an audience instead of trying to write his own "great epic." I get the feeling that people assume that Hideo Kojima doesn't know any better, but maybe the reason he always wants to stop making Metal Gear games is that he thinks that they are as stupid as other people do.
Either way, I enjoy them, cutscenes and all. Though I enjoy melodrama and slower paced games in general.
Edit: Also, I always enjoyed the theory that TTS is the "legend" of what happened at Shadow Moses, and the PS1 game is the "reality."
Either way, I enjoy them, cutscenes and all. Though I enjoy melodrama and slower paced games in general.
Edit: Also, I always enjoyed the theory that TTS is the "legend" of what happened at Shadow Moses, and the PS1 game is the "reality."
She's right, though. Kojima's writing is completely amateur. The only thing that really sets him apart from a lot of others in the industry is that he writes a lot and does quite a bit more research, but the actual quality of his work is questionable at the best of times.
A lot of video game stories are enjoyable though, so good writing or not, they get the job done. Likewise with movies.
That said, MGS1 has one of the best localizations in a video game and while there are some questionable decisions, it's an all-round solid job.
After you activate REX and Liquid reveals himself to be "Master Miller". He jumps into REX after the somersault. I was laughing my way through the entire deal.
matrix-cat
Member
I've never actually played the full game through, but now I have to go and watch an LP because this is amazing. All his flips are accompanied by jet fighter sound effects!
EDIT - Holy shit, Snake actually somersault kicks Metal Gear Rex in the foot and screams "KICK!" while he does it!
Night_Trekker
Member
Almost every single cutscene change in Twin Snakes is awful. I can think of one I liked.
I laughed my way through most of the game.
Ninja kicking ass in the hallway.
Yeah, being a walking dick joke allows us to take the character far more seriously.
crackhead_bob
Member
^this. And you see much of the same with young people who come from Arab, Jewish, and Latino families as well. People just talk out of their asses about issues they have no idea what they're talking about.
Anyone without a clue should try visiting Little Havana in the Miami district. Alot of the second and third generation Cuban American I have met speak with that same distinctive accents that their parents did before they had immigrated to the States. That tends to happen when you're raised within a heavily ethnic household, and grow up in heavily ethnic communities.
Alot of the third generation asian Americans who are brought up in Asian "Chinatown" communities speak that way themselves, especially when their school districts reside within those communities. On top of that, because many families are tradition bound, they tend to be conservative and insular by nature. Alot of the friction that exists today between the young and the old within that community is because many of them want to establish their own cultural identity within the U.S. and don't want to be honor bound by the outdated values of their parents or grandparents.
The only good thing about that entire debacle is Cam Clarke laying down the law. What a boss VA. I had completely forgotten about the jet fighter sounds, it's so hilariously bad.
Here's the original for comparison.
Can Crusher
Banned
This makes me think the games in Japanese are probably even more indulging and mind bogging stupid.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I'm not defending his writing. I'm saying the Big Boss name was a reference to this movie. It's a given considering how much that guy loves movies.
I don't know that Kojima likes Bruce Lee movies. He's certainly never said that the name was homage to the movie either. If anything, its just young Kojima throwing around English terms to make cool-sounding character names. Which end up sounding cool only in his head.
Ahahahaha.
You'd be surprised. They make as much sense as they can in Japanese, considering it's the language and culture it was written with in mind.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Kojima is a movie nut. Hell, I think almost everyone from Asia adores Bruce Lee movies.
He has made some questionable naming choices, but Big Boss must have been from the movie.
It's so, so easy for something to get lost in translation.
I heard that the MGS3 translation had some issues relating to that, like a scene where Snake radios his support to ask who Adam and Eve were, yet the phrase "kuwabara kuwabara" was used repeatedly without explanation. Is that true?
RustyNails
Member
Blaustein provided a check against Kojima's craziness and animu nonsense. After MGS1 (after Blaustein left) the games went downhill into full anime cliches and utter stupidities. No one dared make changes to script and they simply bablefished the entire Japanese scripts into English. Because Kojima.
Jesus, the difference in the "Why did you disguise yourself as Master?" line between the original and TTS perfectly demonstrates everything that's wrong with Hayter post-MGS1. He was far more natural in the first game, but has been hamming it up ever since. Honestly, I'm glad he's gone from MGSV. Same way Splinter Cell sorely needed Ironside out the fucking door too.
And I'm saying yeah I realized it could have been a reference to the movie, but I wasn't sure if it really was or just his weird naming thing happened to coincide with the name of a movie.
That's more than a hint.
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
It's often said that Kojima needs an editor - sadly I think this guy was probably the closest we will get.
Personally I think most all of the enemy names and Big Boss sound very stupid. But they are perfect video game names and I think they are perfect in that context. Kojima is a great video game maker. The stuff he writes is perfectly suitable for video games and adds to the fun factor and overall enjoyment of them. Would I read a book written by him? Fuck no. But characters like Psycho Mantis and Para Medic - while sounding like they are ripped from a Saturday morning cartoon - are what separates the MGS universe from the dull realism of the Splinter Cell universe.
KojiKnight
Member
Big Boss sounds cool in Japanese because English words are cool.
It's kind of how Maximus Rector might sound cool in English... but once you realize it literally translates to "large leader"...... not so much.
Kojima writes western style stories with eastern (especially Japanese) flares... These flares don't really sit well with most westerners because they sound so ridiculous. The only real saving grace is that the MGS series beyond 1 have all been pretty bat-sh*t crazy and therefore it kinda works.
Also, I don't think anyone will disagree that Kojima's writing isn't that great... just above fanfic level... but there are plenty of terrible fanfics that are worth reading for camp alone and are quite popular. Just because you don't like a style of writing and it's generally referred to as "bad" doesn't mean it's not successful in it's own way. Hell, Hollywood is pretty much based on that principle.
It's kind of how Maximus Rector might sound cool in English... but once you realize it literally translates to "large leader"...... not so much.
Kojima writes western style stories with eastern (especially Japanese) flares... These flares don't really sit well with most westerners because they sound so ridiculous. The only real saving grace is that the MGS series beyond 1 have all been pretty bat-sh*t crazy and therefore it kinda works.
Also, I don't think anyone will disagree that Kojima's writing isn't that great... just above fanfic level... but there are plenty of terrible fanfics that are worth reading for camp alone and are quite popular. Just because you don't like a style of writing and it's generally referred to as "bad" doesn't mean it's not successful in it's own way. Hell, Hollywood is pretty much based on that principle.
In Substance, that's not true. There are additional cutscenes in the Substance version that is not present in SOL. As for the campaign's gameplay and aesthetics, the thermal vision is improved and radios can be shot even if the enemy is knocked out.
Cuban Legend
Member
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The two things are not necessarily paired. You don't have to be realistic just because you don't have dumb names. But hey, we all know that SC:CT > any MGS any day of the week.
Digital-Hero
Member
"Love blooming on the battlefield"
It's not just the names I was referencing in that line, but the characters themselves. Fat guy on skates blowing things up, cyborg ninja moms, telekinetic s&m freak, levitation by bumblebee... yeah.
But hey, we all know that SC:CT > any MGS any day of the week.
And thus the trajectory of this thread was altered forever, lol
Night_Trekker
Member
Agreed
Kojima's ego is unstoppable at this point, especially since he's basically keeping Konami afloat.
If you had ever told me Kojima would be fucking with Castlevania...
In terms of pure stealth gameplay, I can't argue with that.