Haha. This too.
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What should Square Enix do to make Final Fantasy relevant again?
- Thread starter jWILL253
- Start date
Haha. This too.
XIII-2 was still shit. Oh, yes, I suppose areas were larger, but you also went to the same four areas like three times each in that game. "Different Era" apparently means "Different Weather Effects." Nevermind the whole "Let's remove the majority of PCs from the last game and dump a monster mechanic in instead." Which I suppose wasn't as awful as it could be, but it certainly wasn't welcome. Then there's that horrible plot and that fucking terrible, so bad it invalidates two games worth of effort bullshit ending. Lightning is drained of any semblance to the character she had in XIII.
The only good things about XIII-2: You can Jump, Noel, Serah if you play her as an absolute moron, and the fact that Kain Highwind reprises his role from FFIV.
Meanwhile the player is forced to endure the incomprehensible plan of Hope to save the world by destroying the world, the fact that the game beats you over the head with the fact that you can change the future
which you can't, since no matter which choice you, the player make, Caius will still kill himself and the ending will play out identically,
XIII was bad, and XIII-2 was, also. I haven't played LR yet, but even if it is okay, 2/3 a trilogy being shit still doesn't leave a good taste in many mouths.
I love the fact that her crotch is exposed in that outfit. It's like they were going for "sexy warrior" when they drew this concept and just got it all wrong...
Trickster
Member
13-2 did fix some of the things people complained about sure. But the game is still closer to FXIII than previous FF games in terms of quality.
HORRORSHØW
Member
SE needs to return to creating self-contained narratives for each Final Fantasy and none of this FF13, 13-2, 13-3 crap. Final Fantasy 13 was okay, but it had many flaws, mainly, it was on rails for a majority of the game. 13-2 tried to remedy that by being non-linear; however, that, coupled with the time-travelling narrative, made it a convoluted mess. 13-3 looks like a Barbie dress up game. And each subsequent game in the 13 series has seen a reduced number to the cast.
They also need to reintroduce the iconic victory fanfare and orchestral tracks in lieu of heavy metal.
They also need to reintroduce the iconic victory fanfare and orchestral tracks in lieu of heavy metal.
lightchris
Member
I suppose you haven't played games like Rogue Galaxy, Lunar, Grandia 3, Blue Dragon or Xenosaga then, let alone Star Ocean 4?
I get that it is subjective, but to me the original FF13 was at least okay in that regard (haven't played 13-2 yet).
I'd like them to return to a somewhat traditional combat system (FF15 clearly goes in the wrong direction imo). The focus should be on story and characters, but without sacrifcing as much freedom as FF13. Maybe more like FF6-9, though even 10 was so well done that the linearity didn't hinder the game imo.
Also, bring back memorable music with a more melodic than supportive focus. FF13 was disappointment in that regard for my tastes.
edit: Okay, maybe that's more of a personal wishlist, but I really think a more traditional FF in the spirit of the late 90's could be succesful.
I don't think Final Fantasy is irrelevant right now as a brand. It's clearly still popular, and still has strong mindshare both in Japan and the rest of the world. The problem is that many of the products being released aren't very attractive on their own, or lack a simple message for the audience.
I think Square Enix needs look at why people enjoyed Final Fantasy to begin with. This actually applies to any brand and any franchise really. Simplicity is the key. Right now there is too much mixed messaging and confusing focus regarding any given FF product. That makes it harder for people in general to be interested in it, and narrows the audience for the title.
While this is not something which should apply to every single title in a franchise, I feel that it would certainly help if they had several FF titles in the horizon which communicate a very clear and simple message while offering impressive art and attractive gameplay mechanics. Simplicity doesn't mean lack of depth, but rather that it is clear what they are saying. For example: This is a boy, he likes a girl, there is a bad guy who looks cool, this world is being oppressed by a powerful company who doesn't care about the people, explore the world and find a way to save it! That's FFVII right there.
With the more recent FF games, especially with FFXIII and the sequels, I felt the marketing and what they were communicating to fans got more and more convoluted. They would create trailers and reveal aspects of the game which literally make no sense to anyone who hasn't beaten the previous games and been following the plot. It doesn't help that people who aren't interesting in these games don't really have any other FF options like they did previously.
The brand used to be diverse and catered to a wide range of fans. Now the company finds development so hard they can only create one or two games in the franchise at a time, and they're all big expensive projects which would hurt the company more if they failed. That's a bad way to moving forward.
Instead of spending so many resources on single mega-projects which may or may not pay off, they should instead diversify the brand once more with clear goals which is easy to understand for all consumers. Make a core numbered FF game which won't take 10 years to develop, make something more family friendly and fun for a group like classic FFCC, make a FFT or FFTA game for the portables for strategy fans, etc. There are so many better options, instead of just putting all the eggs in one basket.
I think Square Enix needs look at why people enjoyed Final Fantasy to begin with. This actually applies to any brand and any franchise really. Simplicity is the key. Right now there is too much mixed messaging and confusing focus regarding any given FF product. That makes it harder for people in general to be interested in it, and narrows the audience for the title.
While this is not something which should apply to every single title in a franchise, I feel that it would certainly help if they had several FF titles in the horizon which communicate a very clear and simple message while offering impressive art and attractive gameplay mechanics. Simplicity doesn't mean lack of depth, but rather that it is clear what they are saying. For example: This is a boy, he likes a girl, there is a bad guy who looks cool, this world is being oppressed by a powerful company who doesn't care about the people, explore the world and find a way to save it! That's FFVII right there.
With the more recent FF games, especially with FFXIII and the sequels, I felt the marketing and what they were communicating to fans got more and more convoluted. They would create trailers and reveal aspects of the game which literally make no sense to anyone who hasn't beaten the previous games and been following the plot. It doesn't help that people who aren't interesting in these games don't really have any other FF options like they did previously.
The brand used to be diverse and catered to a wide range of fans. Now the company finds development so hard they can only create one or two games in the franchise at a time, and they're all big expensive projects which would hurt the company more if they failed. That's a bad way to moving forward.
Instead of spending so many resources on single mega-projects which may or may not pay off, they should instead diversify the brand once more with clear goals which is easy to understand for all consumers. Make a core numbered FF game which won't take 10 years to develop, make something more family friendly and fun for a group like classic FFCC, make a FFT or FFTA game for the portables for strategy fans, etc. There are so many better options, instead of just putting all the eggs in one basket.
Velcro Fly
Member
Just need to create characters people care about. Never played FF XIII but at certain points in XII it's just hard to care very much about a lot of the characters. You get emotionally invested in characters and their quest becomes important to you. All of my favorite RPGs are full of characters that I become emotionally invested in. You actually care that they are on a quest to save the world or whatever. It's not just an exercise in forcing yourself to play through a game because it's Final Fantasy.
Some of my favorite games in the series are my favorites because of the characters. I love FFIV because I love Kain, Cid, Palom/Porom. I love FFVI because I love Celes, Sabin, Shadow, Locke. I love FFX because I love Auron and his general badassery. On the other hand FFXII seemed to drag because I didn't care much about Vaan and Penelo.
For me it starts and ends with good characters. You create good characters and that builds into story and world.
Some of my favorite games in the series are my favorites because of the characters. I love FFIV because I love Kain, Cid, Palom/Porom. I love FFVI because I love Celes, Sabin, Shadow, Locke. I love FFX because I love Auron and his general badassery. On the other hand FFXII seemed to drag because I didn't care much about Vaan and Penelo.
For me it starts and ends with good characters. You create good characters and that builds into story and world.
7 and 11 year old cousins have no clue what Final Fantasy even is. They own a Wii, and an Xbox 360. They know what Skyrim is, they know what Zelda is, they know what Grand Theft Auto is, even Assassins Creed.
So I think what they need to do is have better marketing, especially in the West. There are probably millions of gamers today who've probably never played a single Final Fantasy game. Remind gamers what the games are about, increase advertising, increase mind share.
And I know it sounds dumb, but there are gamers growing up today never having played a single Final Fantasy game. How can you show them what they've been missing.
So I think what they need to do is have better marketing, especially in the West. There are probably millions of gamers today who've probably never played a single Final Fantasy game. Remind gamers what the games are about, increase advertising, increase mind share.
And I know it sounds dumb, but there are gamers growing up today never having played a single Final Fantasy game. How can you show them what they've been missing.
Go back to turn based for starters.
This has been the case throughout all the generations, although FF became fairly big in the JRPG world at one point it was still pretty much unknown in casual circles.
This has been the case throughout all the generations, although FF became fairly big in the JRPG world at one point it was still pretty much unknown in casual circles.
I feel like no decision maker at Square Enix even knows what made Final Fantasy so great in the first place. Perhaps they should re-play either game from IV - IX (hell, even X or XII) and learn from the atmosphere, characters, gameplay and adventuring, relatively straight forward but in an open world. Also, I love that all those games are a completely new story and characters (well except for X-2). Those sold well, they were profitable without sequels (right?), we don't want them, you don't need them.
Man, I'm replaying FF IX right now and everything holds up so well except for the load times and jaggies. Such a shame when you look at the newer entries, even XV, much too action focused and trying too hard to be 'cool' imo.
Man, I'm replaying FF IX right now and everything holds up so well except for the load times and jaggies. Such a shame when you look at the newer entries, even XV, much too action focused and trying too hard to be 'cool' imo.
Yeah, it needs to go back to its original designs which were so much clearer and less embarrassing!!
It's exactly because you are older. The target demographic has ALWAYS been teenage Japanese males. Especially as you're forgetting Squall, Rinoa's boyfriend, the most boy-bandy character ever.
First of all, Final Fantasy is still relevant. The fact this thread exists is enough proof of that, but nonetheless Final Fantasy has taken a huge hit in reputation this generation.
How to fix that?
Simple. Make sure FF XV is an excellent game that has elements of previous FF titles that fans have loved (explorable world, airships), while at the same time innovating in other areas.
XV being just a good game isn't going to cut it IMO. It needs to be excellent, a near masterpiece.
How to fix that?
Simple. Make sure FF XV is an excellent game that has elements of previous FF titles that fans have loved (explorable world, airships), while at the same time innovating in other areas.
XV being just a good game isn't going to cut it IMO. It needs to be excellent, a near masterpiece.
Baleoce
Member
The story of XII whilst I agree being average at best, is irrelevant in how the series should progress.
I think XII set a great basis for how the series *could* go about reinventing itself. Like any game it has positive and negative elements to it. There are a lot of mechanics that could be used or rethought going forward for a new game. But so far it hasn't turned out that way. I guess that's why I'm partially quite excited for A Realm Reborn.
Similarly there are both things about X that would be good and bad to bring forward. It's not quite as black and white as "they should emulate this game in the series for success".
they cant the japense fan base has moved onto mobile handheld gaming systems and there western audiences have grown older and experienced to much of japanese anime tropes
if you had taken 13 and released it when ff7 came out it would probably be the best rated final fantasy ever
simply due to the fact that it was the perfect time to be a Japanese video game maker no one at that time had direct access to any anime that was broadcasted in japan now that we can easily get a hold of any anime and experienced all of there media we have grasped there story lines and writing patterns
But i liked final fantasy 13 dislike final fantasy 7 and didnt buy 13-2 because they tried to listen to people who didnt like it which was a changed fan base that wouldnt be satisfied
if you had taken 13 and released it when ff7 came out it would probably be the best rated final fantasy ever
simply due to the fact that it was the perfect time to be a Japanese video game maker no one at that time had direct access to any anime that was broadcasted in japan now that we can easily get a hold of any anime and experienced all of there media we have grasped there story lines and writing patterns
But i liked final fantasy 13 dislike final fantasy 7 and didnt buy 13-2 because they tried to listen to people who didnt like it which was a changed fan base that wouldnt be satisfied
Let's all remind ourselves that XIII and XIII-2 and Lighting returns are all Toriyama's babies.
The reason I'm not worried about Final Fantasy's future is because we will get different directors that will bring us different experiences.
Some people act like Toriyama will always be the one making Final Fantasy games, luckily this is not the case, which means Final Fantasy is not doomed.
XV is going to be all flash and no substance, you can already see that.
These are pretty subjective, since the earlier FFs had JUST as 'cheesy generic anime shit' as the rest. Gigantic robots, rabbit aliens from the moon, and long lost family members? Am I talking about FF4 or FF13?
Liking the characters is totally a personal bias too. Most of the earlier games had no character but what your imagination created.
People like to overlook the earlier games' flaws whenever this discussion comes up.
ZiZ
Member
I don't know what it can do to make them relevant again, but I can tell you what would make them appealing to me.
- nonlinear game. with nonlinear world
nowadays it's increasingly Linear game play with corridor maps. This started with FFX, I want a huge vibrant world, with a huge vibrant world map. what happened to exploring and experiencing fantastic worlds? getting great side quests?
- Better characters.
the standard is pretty low for JRPGs to begin with. But the characters in FFXIII were terrible, do the japanese fans like Lightning and Co? do they realize how much we hate them?
I don't know if XV will change this with their backstreet boys teen band, Noctus might be interesting, but I already hate that blond kid more than any other FF character to date.
(FFXII had good characters if you don't count Van and whatshername, I also like a lot of characters in FFXIV)
- Interesting Story and setting
in FFXIII the story felt convoluted for convolutions sake and the world was uninteresting. I don't know, maybe I would've liked the story and the world more if I saw it through the eyes of more interesting characters and was able to explore it at my leisure. Also, the drama and emotions often feels forced.
- Better Battle system.
I don't mind the turn based battle system, but lets be honest, it's a relic of a bygone era.
Turn based battles in FF titles were never very interesting to me, they were something you tolerated to while the story moved forward. The only way for a turn based system to be appropriate is if it relied heavily on strategy, (like tactical RPGs or Pokemon) I'm glad FFXV is changing the battle system.
that said, I have high hopes for XIV. (I like the world, the story, the characters)
XV on the other hand has my interest, (interesting battle system, but I'm reserving judgement on the world, the characters, and the story)
TL;DR: do the opposite of FFXIII
- nonlinear game. with nonlinear world
nowadays it's increasingly Linear game play with corridor maps. This started with FFX, I want a huge vibrant world, with a huge vibrant world map. what happened to exploring and experiencing fantastic worlds? getting great side quests?
- Better characters.
the standard is pretty low for JRPGs to begin with. But the characters in FFXIII were terrible, do the japanese fans like Lightning and Co? do they realize how much we hate them?
I don't know if XV will change this with their backstreet boys teen band, Noctus might be interesting, but I already hate that blond kid more than any other FF character to date.
(FFXII had good characters if you don't count Van and whatshername, I also like a lot of characters in FFXIV)
- Interesting Story and setting
in FFXIII the story felt convoluted for convolutions sake and the world was uninteresting. I don't know, maybe I would've liked the story and the world more if I saw it through the eyes of more interesting characters and was able to explore it at my leisure. Also, the drama and emotions often feels forced.
- Better Battle system.
I don't mind the turn based battle system, but lets be honest, it's a relic of a bygone era.
Turn based battles in FF titles were never very interesting to me, they were something you tolerated to while the story moved forward. The only way for a turn based system to be appropriate is if it relied heavily on strategy, (like tactical RPGs or Pokemon) I'm glad FFXV is changing the battle system.
that said, I have high hopes for XIV. (I like the world, the story, the characters)
XV on the other hand has my interest, (interesting battle system, but I'm reserving judgement on the world, the characters, and the story)
TL;DR: do the opposite of FFXIII
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Hire Mistwalker, Blue Dragon, The Lost Odessy and The Last Story all felt more like Final Fantasy than the recent ones. Even if there was bad blood between SQ and Sakaguchi.
Everything I've read about it says this is not true.
Airships, open world, cars, music by Yoko Shimomura, towns, Nomura said it will have a classic feeling which means there will be a great focus on exploration and sidequests, the game reeks of atmosphere, the story looks interesting etc etc
I could go on, but it's pretty obvious that this is a very ambitious game that does not rely on flash, come on now.
DracoBlade
Member
Let Nomura and Hajime Tabata accomplish their vision on FFXV and not be held back by whiners.
FFVII Crisis Core was amazing, with greater next gen horsepower, and Tabata's combat systems I expect XV to revive the crestfallen brand.
FFVII Crisis Core was amazing, with greater next gen horsepower, and Tabata's combat systems I expect XV to revive the crestfallen brand.
SE should be aiming for AAAA quality FF titles. Not B tier quality games like Blue Dragon and The Last Story.
After XIII, I think people have become too scared to believe this will be the case.
Blackage
Member
Dunno about relevant but I have a few simple requests going forward.
1) Keep making great music for these games.
2) I actually do appreciate the attempt to innovate on the combat system. I found Boss battles in FFXIII & FFXIII-2 to be a real treat in later parts of each game.
3) Build your characters properly around the setting/story you're trying to tell. It's one thing if your character has some defining part of their past that defines how they interact with the other characters and its ongoing story. It's another if that character is just sealed into who the heck they are and don't change no matter whatever over the course of the story. The FFXIII cast doesn't change at all, they are who they are at the beginning and are who they are at the end, and rarely do they interact outside of their established archtypes regardless of what's happening around them.
4) Less tutorials, just give the gamer the respect that everything doesn't need to be broken down repeatedly, we can figure out things on our own. I don't know when this trend took off that the first 1-4 hours have to be a total bore for JRPGs, but you didn't need to do this in the past, stop it!
1) Keep making great music for these games.
2) I actually do appreciate the attempt to innovate on the combat system. I found Boss battles in FFXIII & FFXIII-2 to be a real treat in later parts of each game.
3) Build your characters properly around the setting/story you're trying to tell. It's one thing if your character has some defining part of their past that defines how they interact with the other characters and its ongoing story. It's another if that character is just sealed into who the heck they are and don't change no matter whatever over the course of the story. The FFXIII cast doesn't change at all, they are who they are at the beginning and are who they are at the end, and rarely do they interact outside of their established archtypes regardless of what's happening around them.
4) Less tutorials, just give the gamer the respect that everything doesn't need to be broken down repeatedly, we can figure out things on our own. I don't know when this trend took off that the first 1-4 hours have to be a total bore for JRPGs, but you didn't need to do this in the past, stop it!
influentzar
Member
what do you guys meant by relevant?
I got this from GAF, and hey, sex sells
if what you meant by relevant is not the 'sales', then 'better story and story writing' since I got a headache trying to understand what FFXIII is trying to tell
I got this from GAF, and hey, sex sells
if what you meant by relevant is not the 'sales', then 'better story and story writing' since I got a headache trying to understand what FFXIII is trying to tell
Everything we thought and read about XIII turned out wrong also.
Agreed, more funny characters and less serious.
That's not true. FFXIII mostly turned out to be what Toriyama said it was. There are a few mechanics which didn't make it but were mentioned in the very earliest interviews, but most of the direction, tone, and story in the game were exactly as what he said they were.
To be relevant again, and have good sales, finding back a male demographic, i'll do a simple thing.
Go game of throne, more darkish and occidental heroic fantasy.
And to people who will tell me it's a betrayal, just think about it. Game of Throne is more in the style of old school FF, story, art wise, than FFXIII. Like it could be said for Matsuno games to like Vagrant Story. Just make Game of Throne / LotR with historical FF elements, great system, crystals, chocobos, depressed characters, sad story, mog, music with great melodies.. It'll be ok really.
Go game of throne, more darkish and occidental heroic fantasy.
And to people who will tell me it's a betrayal, just think about it. Game of Throne is more in the style of old school FF, story, art wise, than FFXIII. Like it could be said for Matsuno games to like Vagrant Story. Just make Game of Throne / LotR with historical FF elements, great system, crystals, chocobos, depressed characters, sad story, mog, music with great melodies.. It'll be ok really.
Blue Dragon is one of the most complete RPGs released this past generation, when RPGs became more and more cut down until we got what we got with FF13. It hearkens back to the SNES Final Fantasies, so it probably isn't in line with what the majority of Final Fantasy fans want, but it is certainly a worthy game.
Such as??
That's not quite true, there's some development, most people just overlook it in the criticism. Vanille goes from the "spunky" girl type to slowly revealing this guilt-ridden girl suffering for her passiveness and foolishness. Snow begins to admit his brash heroics just caused more trouble for everyone and helped no one.
And I hated Hope, but I have to grant him that he changed his character, the whiny, bitter asshole at the start is pretty much gone by the end.
In fact, with the "power of friendship" ending, most of the cast sounded like chapters from a self-help booklet.
To huge fans, sorta. I think the applause and joy just came from finally seeing the game in action after seven years.
However, after the awful that was XIII and its spin offs, and the issues with XIV, the Final Fantasy brand doesn't really generate that much enthusiasm.
I hope that will be changed as soon as the next generation starts.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Story:
The story should be straightforward with a lore building together as the story flows. Similar to the approach of FFX. What FFXIII did was dump the story in a log and this is bad practice.
Characters:
Flesh out the characters with having certain goals and achievements and not have a sob story without doing anything.
Gameplay:
Should be diversified as possible. FFX had a decent amount of things to do even if it was straightforward.
The story should be straightforward with a lore building together as the story flows. Similar to the approach of FFX. What FFXIII did was dump the story in a log and this is bad practice.
Characters:
Flesh out the characters with having certain goals and achievements and not have a sob story without doing anything.
Gameplay:
Should be diversified as possible. FFX had a decent amount of things to do even if it was straightforward.
daninthemix
Member
Get Hironobu Sakaguchi and Nobuo Uematsu involved.
Which is pure ignorance, everything from XIII is because of Toriyama and Watanabe, both who won't be involved with XV.
I was always more excited for Versus. XIII lacks everything that is good about Versus.
Proper open world exploration + that atmosphere, XV has already beaten XIII from my perspective.
Law Abiding Stranger
Banned
Ever since the first FF13 images surfaced I just knew I wouldn't like the game.
The designs, the direction, character descriptions.It all turned out exactly like I thought it would be.
I mean the biggest criticism I see about FFXV is that "where da gurlz at" and complains it's action based.
Guess I expected too much then, something I think many GAF members are doing with XV right now.