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What would it take for JRPGs to be popular in the west again? Is it even possible?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
- Start date
The long version: I am dismissing your opinion on the basis of my personal experience that once you play the game you for any length of time you stop noticing that there is any disconnect at all. The SMT games have never sold on graphical quality, rather the art direction has always been sufficient to make the games look impressive despite being relatively low tech. The trend continues here, where Kaneko's demon art in sprite form does not at all come across as jarring against the 3D gameworld, and remains one of the strongest draws of the series. The in-battle graphical effects are impressive as well, particularly the contextual kills and spell effects, and the out of battle art is absolutely gorgeous. Your comment comes off as ill-informed to the point that your personal opinion is objectively incorrect.
The short version: Yes.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Tenshi ;72498821 said:Awwww yeah, Yuru Yuri was amazing.
... It angers you? That really doesn't sound healthy lol. I don't like a lot of things either, but I don't let them bother me that much.
Yea, Idk why. You're talking to a guy who only made a Reddit account, because he was sick of seeing /r/Aww on the front page every day .___.
And it's mainly that I find it unfair I guess? I think you have to earn the cuteness, you can't just be cute for cuteness sake. Like Clementine from the Walking Dead was absolutely adorable by the end, but I hated her at first. They proved her cuteness over time, haha
† Tenshi †;72491581 said:
First off, what you're thinking of in Huck Finn, Monte Cristo, etc, are likely glossaries explaining terms that were common at the time those novels were written, but have since fallen out of use. That is very common among republished classic novels, particularly the ones distributed through public schools. They are however, not originally intended parts of the story, and are only necessary because of the passage of time.
Also, Lord of the Rings was intended to be enjoyed without a glossary or encyclopedia to explain the setting. This is why all if not most of the relevant lore is explained not only in the book, but within the narrative.
On a similar note, I actually saw the encyclopedia, and ignored it. A few other games used a similar feature before, but it was never necessary to actually understand the story. Like I said, nobody would ever publish a stand alone novel that required a companion encyclopedia to understand the basic mechanics and history of the setting, especially if that information was highly relevant to the story.
This, is definitive bad storytelling, its almost the very exact definition of bad storytelling. And no, you cannot dismiss this by saying that's just my opinion either. We're not talking about the validity of a plot twist, or the authenticity of characterization. There are finite well defined, correct ways to tell a story, Final Fantasy 13's method wasn't one of them!
daninthemix
Member
Well, a good start would be to have dialog and voice acting that appeal to people other than angsty teenagers, a'la Mass Effect.
Marmaladefire
Member
Yeah, KH is one series that should not be dragged into this. Japan loves Disney, NA loves Disney, Europe loves Disney. KH is the least in danger, and I could see it outselling XV longterm. Even if it dropped off of the face of the world for anyone who didn't play handhelds it will pick itself up again upon the showing of a game where beloved characters are cool, and fleshed out, along with the promise of a full world game that isn't aimed at 7 year olds in terms of gameplay. (As we all know Kingdom Hearts plot is simply a series of wtfs and trenchcoats. In the best way.)
DJ-TheGrey
Neo Member
Add more adult themes/characters better battle systems. Try not to have a love story sometimes. Why are kids always saving the world?
I don't think they are that unpopular as people think.
There is definite shortage of them on home consoles though.
If they went the way many western gamers want, they wouldn't be JRPGs anymore. So in order to have this conversation at all, we have to understand what makes JRPGs appealing and different people have so different ideas, these are incomparable or unrealistic.
I actually don't think that teenager casts have to go, I don't think style has to change, I don't think JRPGs are stale, that's laughable argument. I do think they need better writers tune down fanservice. That's pretty much it.
There is definite shortage of them on home consoles though.
If they went the way many western gamers want, they wouldn't be JRPGs anymore. So in order to have this conversation at all, we have to understand what makes JRPGs appealing and different people have so different ideas, these are incomparable or unrealistic.
I actually don't think that teenager casts have to go, I don't think style has to change, I don't think JRPGs are stale, that's laughable argument. I do think they need better writers tune down fanservice. That's pretty much it.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Jup, came in to say this.
The genre itself is not the problem but that a) the quality ain't there and b) there are generally less games released in this genre these days.
In all seriousness, this gen - Lost Odyssey, for example, it's close to greatest, may be not greatest but close. People still didn't buy it, some because it was xbox360 exclusive, some because it's not called FF, some simply don't like JRPGs. Nothing is simple.
Actually I think that managed to get several hundred thousand sales, but that was in a period where apparently many people were reliably buying whatever hot new 360 game hit that month.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Well, Xenoblade is pretty recent.
Unless you are B.K., in which case it is the worst game ever.
As someone who started playing JRPGs on the NES when it was new, I've grown out of them almost completely. I know I am one person but I used to love them so much that if
It had Square or Enix on it I bought it, played it and loved it. If I can grow out of if I don't really think it will have a resurgence. I could be very wrong but I don't think I am.
It had Square or Enix on it I bought it, played it and loved it. If I can grow out of if I don't really think it will have a resurgence. I could be very wrong but I don't think I am.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I think the ps3 not doing well and Japanese devs especially SE fucking dropping the ball in every jrpg game they made this gen had a severe effect on the genre.
They just need to make jrpgs that don't have too many animu tropes in them.
They just need to make jrpgs that don't have too many animu tropes in them.
For me, Persona 4. Xenoblade was also very good.
Dark Souls can also be counted though it's not a traditional JRPG.
I'd also put Radiant Historia up there.
It seems like the more "Japanese" JRPGs become, the less popular they become. When technology was limited, the J-pop inspired character design was less obvious. But now that games like FFXIII are HD, the inspiration is more clear and western audiences can't identify with the characters.
influentzar
Member
Agreed, Xenoblade is good.
The problem for jRPG now is that the developer prefer portable device more than TV and consoles. Those are easier to make, and also less costly, since they can use PS2 level of graphics to look cool enough for people to buy.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Fire Emblem: Awakening has the stereotypical 1000 year old loli and you can wed her. It's also not a hidden or optional character, you get it by default.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Xenoblade, SMT Nocturne, every Etrian Odyssey game, SMT4(Which came out last week), Trials in the Sky.
And that's just the best ones, I have many more in your mind but I get that you just want the "best ones", I'd mention almost every Falcom games but those don't get localized. I'm sure a lot will say Persona 4 even if I don't consider it the best of the best. Vesperia was also fantastic but I'm salty that we never got the superior PS3 version.
Final Fantasy XIII was just crap, it was not about the western audience identifying themselves or anything.
encephalon
Member
My comment is "ill-informed?" What comment have I specifically made that is factually incorrect? At what point does viewing a game satisfy the criteria to be able to judge a game's visuals? Can one view the entire length of a game, but be unqualified to judge a game based on its visuals because you didn't have the handheld in your hands?
Your argument seems to boil down to "I played it and I didn't feel that way." So what if you don't find it jarring? I do.
And for the record, I agree that the out of battle art is very nice. And while the series may have never "sold on graphical quality," SMT III looks very good to me. Great, even.
Add themes of sex, guns, blood, drugs and dump millions of dollars into marketing, cool cgi non-gameplay trailers (more money than you actually spend on developing the actual game) and you've got yourself a popular game.
seriously though, marketing is pretty important for most games to become popular and I'd imagine its pretty difficult for a japanese-based developer and publisher who cater mainly to the japanese to market its products well to a western audience.
seriously though, marketing is pretty important for most games to become popular and I'd imagine its pretty difficult for a japanese-based developer and publisher who cater mainly to the japanese to market its products well to a western audience.
PaulExcellent
Member
Dot.Hack// could solve everything.
I can feel it in my bones, guise.
I can feel it in my bones, guise.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
the game is fantastic, if that single thing(which I found funny) ruined the game for you need to stop taking games so seriously. I was more bothered about the TONS of DLC the game has than that.
Maybe if the gameplay and story were massively improved.
influentzar
Member
while I do like .hack// and their gameplay, G.U.'s story are pushing it and less enjoyable than the previous one, because it's no longer 'an online game' but just a fantasy world
zeopower6
Member
FFX was incredibly Japanese and its inspiration was clear with the PS2's power. I think the issue with XIII is that it has kind of taken up an entire generation where we would normally get three or so individual mainline titles on a system (VII to IX for PS1, X to XII for PS2, and we got three XIII games and XIV on PS3) so there's a lot of anger towards the fact that XIII seems like it just won't end, mostly due to the XIV team needing to redo everything and make ARR, but things are looking up. I believe there'd be a lot less backlash towards XIII if we were able to get a XV on PS3 as opposed to XIII-2 and Lightning Returns.
And it really does come down to marketing. Most JRPG titles in the West see zero marketing outside of word of mouth and some online/print reviews.
Good points. Rather than descending into the cesspit of discussing moe etc, its worth looking at why some JRPGs retain broad western appeal and some don't. The same goes for other genres too.
Final Fantasy changes things up with each new world, so I wonder if some of its appeal is about curiosity. If a westerner (or anybody else for that matter) didn't like the last one, you might like the next. Whole threads are full of people dividing the franchise into the ones they did and didn't like, and that diversity perhaps gives it stability and stops it falling too fast. In contrast, other JRPGs have pissed in their own singular pool somewhat (hai Star Ocean) as they continue to appeal to a niche where more people leave each time, rather than using each game as an opportunity to grab new players.
Dark/Demon's Souls hit the whole online community thing. It's tough, and most forums have a board with people swapping tips- that gave it great word of mouth that has translated into expectations of a real, meaty challenge- it's not everyone's cup of tea but its made a selling point of not forgiving gamers raised on easy modern action games that just need you to press A for awesome. It's not mainstream appeal, but that reputation is great for luring people into the series- anyone getting into gaming will eventually hear its name whispered as a game that's a benchmark for old-school difficulty. All successful games want to be a benchmark for something, whether its visuals, writing, gameplay etc. It does half your marketing for you.
Etrian Odyssey doesn't have broad appeal at all, it's the definition of niche, but it does have a tiny bit of that Dark Souls DNA of having a rep for tough, rewarding, old-school gameplay. It's a great update of Wizardry, but I wonder if the anime art severely limits what could be a great resurgence of the turn-based dungeon crawler overseas, alongside Legend of Grimrock etc. Still, at least it's cheap to make, focuses on gameplay and the minimalist storytelling leaves the player to come up with their own characters. I much prefer that in RPGs, even if its unusual for a JRPG. Gameplay is the focus here, but its kind-of put itself in a corner with its art style. Consider how many people played FFXIII and then leapt online to complain about it, compared to the portion of those talking about EO. The visuals put some people off, but if it can get people to try it they get hooked. Disclaimer- personally I love the art, it was my favourite new IP last gen.
Nobody's mentioned Monster Hunter yet, I don't know if it really counts but the online community for Tri in the EU was just awesome, I don't think it sold too badly either.
Pokemon- I missed out on the craze by being too old in 1997, but it's obvious that its not just a fad- the game apparently has a really addictive system of progression and party building and I was always surprised to find that other older gamers played it just due to that.
You have to look at what Final Fantasy 7 did right, because the idea of a group of different people coming together to defeat a greater evil is pretty much the story of 95% of all JRPGs, its very Star Wars/LOTR like. So its not like FF7 told a story that nobody else did, they just presented it better so that people all across the world could identify themselves and enjoy the characters.
The issue with most JRPGs is that they fail to really get people interested in their story and characters, sometimes they fail before they even get a chance to shine, games with weird names that nobody knows what it is suppose to mean to character designs that makes them look like these games are only meant for cosplayers and nobody else. That is how it felt when i first saw FF13, that this game was designed so that people could make costumes and pretend to be these characters at various gatherings.
People still like a good story about good vs. evil, Hobbit just recently came out, Avengers happened, new Star Wars films are coming out and they will pretty much follow the same story arch, its classic. But JRPG developers need cut the belts, whistles, buttons and just bizarre design, yes it has some niche appeal in the west but if you want FF7 esque numbers then you need to deliver a story and setting that is more apt for the 3 major markets instead of just Japan and then small niche fans in the US and Europe who happen to love that style.
FF7 and Pokemon still have anime in them, its just not in your face, and i never feel like i am playing a game that is solely catering to this specific demographic, just like when you watch Lord of the Rings, its not just for the people who read the books, its basically for everyone.
The issue with most JRPGs is that they fail to really get people interested in their story and characters, sometimes they fail before they even get a chance to shine, games with weird names that nobody knows what it is suppose to mean to character designs that makes them look like these games are only meant for cosplayers and nobody else. That is how it felt when i first saw FF13, that this game was designed so that people could make costumes and pretend to be these characters at various gatherings.
People still like a good story about good vs. evil, Hobbit just recently came out, Avengers happened, new Star Wars films are coming out and they will pretty much follow the same story arch, its classic. But JRPG developers need cut the belts, whistles, buttons and just bizarre design, yes it has some niche appeal in the west but if you want FF7 esque numbers then you need to deliver a story and setting that is more apt for the 3 major markets instead of just Japan and then small niche fans in the US and Europe who happen to love that style.
FF7 and Pokemon still have anime in them, its just not in your face, and i never feel like i am playing a game that is solely catering to this specific demographic, just like when you watch Lord of the Rings, its not just for the people who read the books, its basically for everyone.
PaulExcellent
Member
Clairvoyance
Member
I laughed at the fact that two of the recent posters complaining about anime 'tropes' and 'artstyle' are fans of the One Piece and Bleach anime. Truly hilarious.
I feel like the Persona Team has the potential to make a game that would be genuinely popular in the West, but they'll never achieve it as long as they move in the direction that Golden and Arena went.
They have some great game design, and Soejima is capable of doing genuinely cool art design. But because of their role as a niche Japanese developer, they always include crap which would put any reasonable amount of the mainstream audience off their games.
They have some great game design, and Soejima is capable of doing genuinely cool art design. But because of their role as a niche Japanese developer, they always include crap which would put any reasonable amount of the mainstream audience off their games.
zeopower6
Member
Idol stuff in Persona 4?
It is extremely in your face in Pokemon... It will be even more obvious with the latest 3D versions where you see the anime influence in all the sprites and stuff... In fact, I would say Pokemon is just as cosplayer-baity as XIII.
And it helped that VII was the first big 3D RPG of its time. I recall it got national coverage in the US at least....
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Etrian Odyssey is one of the best new IP's that came out the last generation and it was largely ignored by... well everyone. It's rewarding, engaging, and simply a joy to play. I personally love the art, I want to own every Etrian Odyssey artbook. I agree that the series is niche, I'm so glad developers can still make this kind of games that obviously won't sell a lot, I can feel the passion that the developers pour into every Etrian Odyssey, it's beautiful.
I hate how everything is compared to Dark Souls haha.
To be fair, I don't think it's just that FFVII is awesome. It was the right RPG at the right time, came out right as people were upgrading from 16-bit consoles to a console that was slaughtering the competition, and the marketing focused on the visuals and the cut scenes to draw in a broader audience of people in who wouldn't normally play a JRPG. That audience learned that RPG aren't as complex as they looked, and has stayed with FF for 16 years even if they don't play other rpgs, it was a masterstroke of marketing worth millions. You're totally right in that its a great game, but other factors were at work too
JordanN
Banned
I'm not sure how to fix it.
JRPG's on handhelds seem to be a perfect fit whereas on HD consoles they can be "bleh".
When I first saw Final Fantasy XV at e3, the presentation looked so fricken weird to me. Like Squenix was trying too hard to be appealing when in reality, it still feels outclassed from what western devs have been doing on consoles.
But maybe if it was a handheld game I wouldn't be complaining.
JRPG's on handhelds seem to be a perfect fit whereas on HD consoles they can be "bleh".
When I first saw Final Fantasy XV at e3, the presentation looked so fricken weird to me. Like Squenix was trying too hard to be appealing when in reality, it still feels outclassed from what western devs have been doing on consoles.
But maybe if it was a handheld game I wouldn't be complaining.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Yup, this too. But this is not just a problem with JRPGs IMO but with almost ALL games made in Japan. Japanese games used to be so much more accessable to me back during the PS1 and PS2 days. Now it's just ....urgh.... Just look at FFXV...
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
So adding fan-service means it can't sell in the west?
I know, I know, I hate everything being compared to DS too but couldn't think of another way to say 'reassuringly tough, old-school, spread by word-of-mouth'. Apologies.
Not just the fan service, but that is absolutely a factor in it.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I never played Golden or the story mode in Arena, what exactly did they add that is that bad? I've played everything else.
I'm not a huge fan of FFXV, but what's the problem with it? It seems like Square Enix is doing an action game and making it less and less of an RPG to make it appealing to the west.
zeopower6
Member
I know, I know, I hate everything being compared to DS too but couldn't think of another way to say 'reassuringly tough, old-school, spread by word-of-mouth'. Apologies.
You could have just said that, lol.
And what was so off about the XV reveal? It looked like a more polished version of what they've showed when it was Versus....
Coffee Dog
Banned
It would take the revival of the B-game.
JRPGs outside of the biggest of names like pokemon and final fantasy have always been B-games that profit off of a niche audience. Now that nobody wants to chase that niche audience in lieu of the big dollars, nobody is making JRPGs.
They added another hot spring scene. It's not really anything worse than was already in the original, its not like you can see titties or whatever. A lot of people dislike it because its frankly completely unnecessary.
It doesn't bother me at all because vanilla was already bogged down with dumb animu bullshit anyway (a fucking beauty pageant? Seriously?) and golden just adds more of what was already there imo.
JRPGs outside of the biggest of names like pokemon and final fantasy have always been B-games that profit off of a niche audience. Now that nobody wants to chase that niche audience in lieu of the big dollars, nobody is making JRPGs.
They added another hot spring scene. It's not really anything worse than was already in the original, its not like you can see titties or whatever. A lot of people dislike it because its frankly completely unnecessary.
It doesn't bother me at all because vanilla was already bogged down with dumb animu bullshit anyway (a fucking beauty pageant? Seriously?) and golden just adds more of what was already there imo.
I don't know, I agree that tech allowing j-pop characters hasn't helped overseas appeal, but it's not all like that, plenty of modern Japanese characters aren't like that.
Lots of Japanese games have bent over backwards to be more accessible to us and it doesn't always work out for the best.
Having said that, I loved Dragon's Dogma. Sure, a few things that could be tweaked, but it was a fantastic fusion of western and Japanese influences, with monsters that moved brilliantly. The sheer feral ferocity and speed of them really showed off their work on Monster Hunter, I don't think it gets half as much credit as it deserved and it always gets ignored in JRPG threads.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Oh, the game is fantastic.
But let's not kid ourselves, there's loli pandering even on JRPG's developed by Nintendo.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Like I said, look at the art style. Characters have all this destinctive Japanse touch to them. It didn't use to be that way. Especially during the PSone days there were many games from Japan (like Resident Evil) art wise looked like they've been made in the West. You hardly get this these days.
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