O.v.e.rlord
Banned
Religion.
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What's the reason for being homophobic?
- Thread starter Fudgepuppy
- Start date
Zantetsuken
Member
Ignorance
Linkstrikesback
Member
Excuse me?
Incest is a problem because it can lead to genetic defects in any children caused, whether intentional or not.
What is the equivalent in gay relationships are you insinuating here?
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Fuck you.
The Fatal Englishman
Member
The reasons are varied and complex. Religion, ignorance and misguided social values all play a part. In America, the overriding reasons appear to stem from literal readings of the (English) Bible. If you believe Foucault, homosexuality as deviancy was largely an 18th and 19th century development.
For a large portion of human history, homosexuality was controversial only insofar as the homosexual act reinforced or disrupted the existing social order (read: certain sexual behaviour was perceived as feminine, ergo bad, while other behaviour was masculine, ergo good).
For a large portion of human history, homosexuality was controversial only insofar as the homosexual act reinforced or disrupted the existing social order (read: certain sexual behaviour was perceived as feminine, ergo bad, while other behaviour was masculine, ergo good).
toddhunter
Member
No, I don't think being homosexual would have been a big deal "back then". If it wasn't for religion I don't think it would be an issue now either.
I don't know if that would have been the outcome in the present day if there was never any religion in the history of man. There are homophobes who are not religious and yet can hate the LGBT community anyways. Though you could maybe argue that that stems from religious backgrounds seeping into general society so even if suddenly a country went 100% atheist there could still be plenty of homophobia because of how the religious past of eons ago still shaped the society that is in the present day.
I don't know anything about the distant past of homophobia though.
Excuse my poorly chosen words, I wrote it in a hurry.
Clarification: I believe gay people should have the exactly same rights as everybody else and the reason to oppose it is, for me, unthinkable.
Common arguments from homopfobes: "It's discusting, it's unatural, it's gross bla bla" unless you are a religious fundementalist (?) then you can blame the word of God etc. Still idiotic, obviously.
Now, what about incest. Alot of you use two cousins as an example and no, I don't think I have a problem with that. But the thought of my brother having sexual intercourse with my sister, or worse, my father with my sister makes my skin crawl.
The arguments which pops out from my mind when I think about the two last scenarios (brother/sister & father/daughter) is: Discusting, unatural, gross bla bla". The exact same "arguments" homophobes use.
I had never given it much tought until I watched a debate between Lawrence Kraus and Hamza Tzortziz : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAo17dlFOLg (I don't know when its mentioned)
Basically, they talk about morality and Krauss uses homophobia among muslims as an example and without hesitation Tzortzis responds and asks what Krauss thinks about incest, and hes struggling to respond without admiting incest is OK because otherwise he will look like a hypocrite.
To clarify again: I have a moral struggle in my mind. I want to accept love whatever form it takes but...well I suppose I draw the line there.
Am I beaing unreasonable?
I've been homophobic in the past.
I became homophobic because of other people bullying me and calling me gay when I was younger. I had troubles getting friends when I was younger, so when I finally made some I hang around them all the time. Especially my best friend.
So the bullies started calling me gay, so I turned homophobic.
And was for quite a few years. Then another of my dear valued friends came out and I was filled with such guilt. I used to say some terrible things around my friends about gay people.
Seeing how happy my friend became because he finally came out, was a real eye opener for me. I immediately apologized to him, if I had ever offended him.
Now looking back I can't understand how I let those other kids get to me, but hopefully more people can change. I am glad I changed and that I can keep being a part of one of my best friends life.
I became homophobic because of other people bullying me and calling me gay when I was younger. I had troubles getting friends when I was younger, so when I finally made some I hang around them all the time. Especially my best friend.
So the bullies started calling me gay, so I turned homophobic.
And was for quite a few years. Then another of my dear valued friends came out and I was filled with such guilt. I used to say some terrible things around my friends about gay people.
Seeing how happy my friend became because he finally came out, was a real eye opener for me. I immediately apologized to him, if I had ever offended him.
Now looking back I can't understand how I let those other kids get to me, but hopefully more people can change. I am glad I changed and that I can keep being a part of one of my best friends life.
So you don't have a problem with incest if pregnancy isn't in the "equation"?
Airola
Member
But surely there must be some reason why homosexuality was brought up as an issue when religions were being invented. I mean you can't infinitely go back and say religion is the reason because to bring something in a new religion there must be some non-religious reason for things to be there.
You could be right though in that without religion it wouldn't be an issue today, but that's of course a big "what if" question. I mean, homosexuality hasn't been in favor in countries where religion has been forbidden either.
Assigning morality to something as fundamental as sexuality is absolutely a bad thing and judging someone based solely on that is really shitty.
I think i know what you're getting at but using the word "sinful" has clear, negative connotation. I'd rather use something like decadent, since it's (mostly) neutral.
No different to the first two you mentioned, but please don't compare islamophobia with homophobia please. Some people get labeled that for having real issues with Islam (and so they should, same as any religion). Whereas, there are no issues to be had with homosexuality.
What country is religion forbidden?
Bro getting fucked by another dude which is cool and good has nothing to do with fuckin your sister. What the hell
Astral Dog
Member
NO! Lots and lots of people don't see it that way,when it comes to traditional families,Gays are disgusting.stupid look silly and basically the same as murderers,drug addicts,etc. Also you are overestimating education on these subjects most still believe in free will, God, souls stuff like that. Wich is a big factor.
Its because a great part of society still has ingrained homophobia and homosexuals ARE the easy target because they are weird and different.(yuck!)
gutter_trash
Banned
1) ignorance
2) living in an environment where you don't know any gay friends to relate to, so you think they are alien
3) education system failed to teach kids growing about differences, tolerence and acceptence.
4) Religion, LOL nothing needs to be added here. All Religions are ultra-conservative on this.
5) Machsimo; in some cultures being a man means being more apish than actully being just a man. So there is a pre-historic cultural vibe on the difenition of being man.
2) living in an environment where you don't know any gay friends to relate to, so you think they are alien
3) education system failed to teach kids growing about differences, tolerence and acceptence.
4) Religion, LOL nothing needs to be added here. All Religions are ultra-conservative on this.
5) Machsimo; in some cultures being a man means being more apish than actully being just a man. So there is a pre-historic cultural vibe on the difenition of being man.
Kingpin Rogers
Member
It must have to do a lot with how you were raised right?
My family was never overtly homophobic but it was very frequent for me and my brothers to insult each other by calling each other gay or insinuating we were and not get called out on it. I know better now not use gayness as something derogatory but I know some people never made that connection.
My family was never overtly homophobic but it was very frequent for me and my brothers to insult each other by calling each other gay or insinuating we were and not get called out on it. I know better now not use gayness as something derogatory but I know some people never made that connection.
I don't think 'fear' plays a lot into it though. It's hate and faux superiority. A lot of the fear perpetuation, the 'keep gays away from your kids' propaganda, seems to come from the hate, rather than vice-versa.
I don't think racism is based on fear, either, but rather the elevation achieved by stepping on people. You're better because you don't belong to that group - with no requirement to earn that self-worth.
Airola
Member
Basically you could've said something like that against homosexuality and pretty much all sex outside of marriage before modern safe sex was invented.
I mean, absolutely the only way to 100% not spread STDs is to everyone have sex with only one person in their lives. And as anal sex makes, for example, HIV, be a bigger risk to get and anal sex is relatively more common in homosexual than in heterosexual activities, you could've said homosexuality was more dangerous than heterosexuality back in the day.
But now, as the dangers of STDs are much lower than what it used to be, thanks to sex education and condoms, the dangers of diseases can't really be used as a point of criticism anymore.
In that sense, what if incest happens between people who want it to happen and maybe even are, for some medical reason, unable to have babies? Would that type of incest be ok for you? If not, why not? If you still think it would be gross or it still wouldn't feel right or it would be unnatural, it would basically be exactly what homophobes have said about homosexuals.
Or even in a situation where they could be able to have babies but they would use every contraception possible and even in situation when the woman would become pregnant they would choose to have an abortion, would it then be ok to you?
I mean, if the possibility of genetic defects is the only reason why it's not ok, then with the possibility of genetic defects eliminated it shouldn't be a problem anymore, unless there are other reasons too. And right now I can't quite think of much other reasons than what homophobes have been said about homosexuality for ages.
And surely there are people who genuinely want to be in an incestual relationship with each other. To claim otherwise would be quite the same as "we don't have any homosexuals in our country." That just would not be true.
So in that sense I understand what PerkeyMan means.
It's definitely not a simple issue and it's true that some of the issues people have with incest is actually quite the same as some of the issues people have with homosexuality.
It's a complex thing. Even though I've just written this and understand the issue, I personally still kinda think incestual relationships should not be allowed even if both wants it and there is no possibility for them to have children. And I guess that in a way makes me a bigot (not that I already aren't, but it would basically make me a bigot in this issue too).
I've seen that same debate. Krauss did say incest is okay as long as there is some assurance that they do not procreate. I also think what he was struggling with is that incest is especially taboo and the crowd was getting worked up over the whole thing but I'm pretty sure he did say that incest is okay as long as they do not have kids. I don't think there's anything hypocritical about that, I'm not sure what you mean.
My brother hits on just about any woman he talks to. If he sees a lady, he'll at least attempt to have sex with her. He's also immensely homophobic.
Whenever he interacts with a gay man he then later mentions how the man was hitting on him. Even if it was just a simple exchange of pleasantries. He seems to think every man is like him, and the only reason to speak to the gender you're attracted to is sex.
Idk if this is a common reasoning for homophobia, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Whenever he interacts with a gay man he then later mentions how the man was hitting on him. Even if it was just a simple exchange of pleasantries. He seems to think every man is like him, and the only reason to speak to the gender you're attracted to is sex.
Idk if this is a common reasoning for homophobia, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Sure, some people think it's a choice. Those people are wrong.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
You're trying to apply logic to a concept that is totally illogical to begin with.
The reason homophobia exists is the same reason any kind of prejudice exists. Ignorance of a subject mixed with a pig headed nature.
Astral Dog
Member
I think it comes mainly from religipn but society itself was homophobic not many years ago becausr it spread until it was normalized.things are changing with the internet though,sloowly but surely changing for the better
It may seem elementary to you, but when you grow up indoctrinated to believe these are people who are choosing a lifestyle based on pure pleasure and hedonism, the whole notion of monotheistic "orignal sin" comes into play, along with the wrath of God and what was done in Sodom and Gomorrah, and if you grew up in a very religious household, you hate these people, who you view as committing sin against god.
Myself, I come from a very progressive household and even at like 12 I realized, as an immigrant in an American junior high that no one would "want" to be different just out for the sake of it, everybody essentially wants to fit in, why would anyone want the social ostracism?
But even at my extremely progressive and liberal high school, my own friend who was very religious would not even want to hear any reasoning behind the argument.
"Nah, the gays know full well what they are doing, they fucking chose this lifestyle, don't even say otherwise."
Fear and racism definitely go together. It isn't just superiority. "I don't want these muslims coming to my country. I'm afraid they will make us live under Sharia Law." or "oh my god, they will make us the minority" type of statements are fear based. I see what you're saying that the fear stems from the initial hate, but either way fear becomes part of the picture regardless of whether it was the start of it or it came along the way.
This argument is funny because its theorized that homosexuals from were responsible for preventing overpopulation and nurturing the offspring of others, so it is a very natural thing even from a biological ore evolutionary standpoint.
Of course that would require people to believe in evolution lol.
Snowybreak
Member
Hmm... Well... In the case of incest (at least in the example of father/daughter and brother/sister) both of those relationships are straight versus homosexual. I can totally understand where you're coming from, but this is a case of sexuality vs. attraction.
Astral Dog
Member
"You are going to Hell for stupid" "they only want to suffef because they are stupid instead of normal".
That and Gay threatens the whole system up "WHAT are your brothers/sisters/father/boss/priest whatever going to think about you!" And not having children is another big issue that comes up .you are not normal like them but worse like a street dog
There is a nasty side but we don't discuss the family stuff much wich is were every one has a different way of dealing with this.you are not an individual but part of the family thus you are expected to be a certain way or get fucked.
Vicetrailia
Banned
I know this work colleague who only responds to feminine gay men. He ignores masculine ones but dare you stand out, dress a certain way, or have a certain voice and/or attitude he's suddenly super homophobic. So of course he has issues with transgender, crossdressers, etc, and must verbalize his disgust.
Airola
Member
Sure, but I like to think that when we are all sinful none of us should be in a position to blame anyone else on their sins. Like, I'd say 99,999% of those who say homosexuality is sinful and God doesn't like it are still looking at others with lust which makes them be just as sinful and just as unlikeable in God's eyes. Therefore something being sinful actually kinda elevates the ground and makes everyone be just as miserable, just as hateable and, most importantly, just as loveable as anyone else.
Yeah, you are correct in that the word sinful does usually have more negative connotation.
But I like to think that word in the context of Jesus stopping people from stoning the adulterer. While at that point they had the "right" to stone an adulterer and it was one of the worse crimes, Jesus told them the one who has not sinned at all should throw the first stone. It's basically Jesus saying even their smallest sins make them "unqualified" to punish that woman from her so-called "bigger" sin. Like, even if we have done only small little sins, we are just as sinful as anyone else and we should stop qualifying others because of their sins. Sure, we should have our own judicial system and sure we should have sanctions for crimes, but when we qualify and disqualify others based on their metaphysical sinfulness we have become absolute hypocrites.
supernormal
Member
It's this. Basically ignorance and distance from the issue. Once people get close to the situation whether willingly or not (in my experience) they come around to it, just like on the show.
Perhaps fear breeds hate. That which is unfamiliar is scary because it disrupts your established worldview. As a result the unfamiliar is perceived as a threat and the response is to remove the threat, by fight or by flight.
Airola
Member
It used to be tough to be religious or homosexual in Soviet Union for example.
Same goes to China and North Korea.
Things are different now of course, and they are not that much against religion than they once were. And as they're becoming softer at that front, they are also becoming softer what comes to LGBT things too.
And of course Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore.
But my point was that there have been countries where religion has been tried to suppress away and those examples haven't been good for homosexuals. So you couldn't really say that taking religion away would certainly make things easier for homosexuals because there are examples where it hasn't done that.
Also, apparently according to wikipedia in Albania sex between two same-sex people was legal before People's Socialist Republic of Albania took over. They began to push religion down (in 1967 religion was "gone" and Albania was stated to be completely atheistic nation and they made sure of it by using violence towards whatever was left of religion) and same-sex sexual intercourses were made illegal.
Albania has changed since though, but it's another example of unreligious people capable on being asses.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Social stigma ( AKA Toxic masculinity)
Religion
Being genuinely repulsed by the idea of it
Religion
Being genuinely repulsed by the idea of it
It's as relevant as every passage of Mosaic Law is relevant in our modern legal and social system.
Do they have that same fire against adultery? Fortune telling and other spiritual mediums? Anyone that hates their parents? People who have sex with their in-laws?
macfoshizzle
Member
I think it's education. I know guys who still think they might get hit on just but sitting next to a gay guy
John Rabbit
Banned
Because peepees shouldn't touch each other. Eww icky gross.
LordKasual
Banned
The reasons people cringe at incest and the reasons people cringe at homosexuality aren't all that far removed. Theoretically speaking, if one could eliminate the increased risk of recessive defects cropping up (or just map them out first), then there would be little wrong with incest from a biological point of view. Just like homosexual male couples practicing safe sex can eliminate the increased risk of contracting / spreading STDs . Buuuut in the case of incest, this is all assuming the couple wants to have children in the first place....otherwise, it is essentially no different than homosexuality. You're just moving the issue from the sex of the individuals to their lineage.
So, at that point, what objections can you stand on to slander the decision that spares homosexuality from the exact same criticism? I mean, I personally think incest is gross. But if someone was to make a case for it....who am I to argue against them? If you're okay with homosexual couples, and people being free to love who they want, but you're not okay with incestual couples, then you are a hypocrite.
Oh, and to answer the OP's question -- to everyone who kneejerk posted at PerkeyMan's comment asking for clarification about homosexuality vs. incest? The sentiments that you are feeling against incest right this moment that caused you to believe the two behaviors deserve to be separated are the exact same sentiments homophobes have against homosexuality. (More or less.) The only difference is in the amount of conviction you have towards your disposition.
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