The overarching problem seems to be cultural. Whether by religion or ideology, people take it too far.
There was a good documentary I was watching where they followed the anti-gay movement in Russia. They established this one guy as fiercely loving his family, and family tradition, going on about protecting it. It was pretty earnest, and you could almost understand them.
Then he goes out and acts like a massive dick to gay people. Clearly they've twisted it too far.
You'd be suprised how often hate stems from a twisted love.
My understanding is that people become homophobic because lack of understanding and empathy, they grow up on an environment with clear defined "rules" and "ideals", they get educated that the world is certain way and when something "foreign" to their life views is introduced they lash out because it enters in direct conflict with their world views, their understanding of the world is being contested and this frustrate them, they feel the "world" they grew up on is being threatened by this radical new concept that was missing from their life or, worse case, actively demonized.
So they fight tooth and nail against it, because they are afraid of being wrong and embracing change.
I didn't see that episode, so I didn't see the reaction she had, but IMO, it would be perfectly normal for a parent to have a negative reaction to news like this. The thing that separates homophobia and love, is the eventual acceptance. Now if she went on to never speak to her again because she's gay, then yeah, that shit isn't acceptable, but a mild freak out on finding out the news followed by acceptance seems pretty normal (especially for the baby boomer generation)
One theory is religious societies concentrating on procreating more believers, but I think that there's a herd mentality that sometimes drives any unusual or statistical outlier out of the herd for self-protection, resources etc. So likely a combination of factors.
It's how you're raised. And the messages that form your brain. There's also self-loathing and a bunch of other touchpoints like politics etc. There's no single reason.
But all the reasons have zero place in 21st century society.
The less typical something is in a society, the more it's reviled and feared, and the less likely it is to be recognized and accommodated in formal social institutions.
This explains all kinds of divisions:
Patriarchy vs. women
Old vs. young
Rich vs. poor
Rural vs. urban
Heterosexual hegemony vs. homosexuality
Whites vs. everyone else
Nationality vs. nationality
The religious thing doesn't make any sense. As the Bible doesn't actually call people to be homophobic just that homosexuality is wrong, just as wrong as lying but you don't get liar phobics.
Ignorance and misinformation, spread and reinforced by people under the influence of religion and social norms.
Gut level disgust and an inability or unwillingness to challenge that fault in yourself and either overwrite it or ignore it.
I got over a lot of my latent homophobia by reading about the experiences of other gay people, and gradually learning to empathize, until my feelings matched my knowledge that we're all just people.
I don't mean to attack you, but I want to point out that this in itself is an insulting reduction of sexual orientation, which is a profoundly broad and complex cluster of attributes that touch the core of the human personality. Feeling attraction, falling in love, appreciating beauty, yearning for connection, developing a self-image that incorporates all this... There's so much more to it than some sex act. Body parts and what you do with them are secondary to the mental reality.
Being gay or straight or whatever else isn't a lens or a window or a choice or an act. It's the whole mind, the whole person. You can't separate your gayness or straightness from the rest of your perspective. There are no borders. It's all just you.
The less typical something is in a society, the more it's reviled and feared, and the less likely it is to be recognized and accommodated in formal social institutions.
This explains all kinds of divisions:
Patriarchy vs. women
Old vs. young
Rich vs. poor
Rural vs. urban
Heterosexual hegemony vs. homosexuality Whites vs. everyone else
Nationality vs. nationality
some think it's a disease. some think it's spreading disease. some think it's unnatural and some consider it a mockery of... masculinity? I don't know, never asked my family why.
I look at it from a sociological perspective and would argue that homophobia is an extension of not being sex positive. Some people view sex, in general, as a shameful exercise. It's a way for people of all economic/racial/cultural backgrounds to enjoy their life, regardless of socioeconomic status.
And certain cultural elites don't like that. They'd rather demonize sex so they can control other peoples' behaviors. I mean, if someone is born economically disadvantaged and has to struggle to improve their lot, then at least let them enjoy the basic human right of sex!
But no, because that would encourage people to have agency over their body and their future. Instead, sex for the sake of sex is stigmatized. Unless it has the pretense of possibly leading to conception. And even then, it's not something you talk about or take any pride in.
And that's where homophobia comes in. People pursuing what personally gives them pleasure, it's a threat to the social structure described above. A structure that keeps some people on top and others on bottom of the social and economic pyramid. Like everything, it's all about money.
Ignorance, mostly. The stigma of being gay in Western civilization that was set decades ago dies hard, like any stigma. Older generations keep their bigotry alive by teaching the next generation to hate.
Basically comes down to misogyny. Anything feminine is bad or "lesser" and should be looked down upon in this patriarchal society. Your a guy who wants to "behave" like a female? Well shame on you! Being a woman is terrible! (/s)
But what about the women who are homophic? Thats something we don't discuss much here to focus on men but i have seen a lot of homophobia coming from girls/women themselves
The framing of the question makes homophobia sound like a conscious decision one makes when they presented with all the options, but I don't think that's the way it usually works.
It seems to be initially borne out of ignorance, continues from a lack of understanding and empathy, is reinforced by allowing discrimination and bullying, and grows to become more sinister in less open-minded/more insulated groups.
Of course, an adult should be able to learn to be a better person and not let hate or ignorance color their perceptions of and interactions with people who they perceive as different, but not everyone does or even tries. Discrimination of all kinds can be traced back to ignorance.
Jesus christ, are you 12 years old? I'm obviously talking about the moral behaviour when it comes to comparing homosexuality vs incest. I know the fucking difference between them.
AKA I have no problem with homosexuality. It doesn't bother me AT ALL no mather if its strangers or close friends and family. But when it comes to incest it would bother me and thats my inner "moral struggle" because when I think about WHY it bothers is I can only think of it being gross, unnatural, disgusting AKA the exact same rethoric homophobes use against gay people.
In my mind (of course I could be wrong) it looks like Krauss isn't 100% honest in his response (I looks like the question caught him off guard). If he says incest is wrong he obviously has to explain why which brings me to my point that homophobes and incestophobes (?) use the same "arguments" do defend their position.
Hmm... Well... In the case of incest (at least in the example of father/daughter and brother/sister) both of those relationships are straight versus homosexual. I can totally understand where you're coming from, but this is a case of sexuality vs. attraction.
Were talking about taboos and in my mind incest between close family members are more taboo than homosexuality. But also, are you saying it's impossible for family members to fall in love?
In my mind (of course I could be wrong) it looks like Krauss isn't 100% honest in his response (I looks like the question caught him off guard). If he says incest is wrong he obviously has to explain why which brings me to my point that homophobes and incestophobes (?) use the same "arguments" do defend their position.
What arguments do homophobes use exactly and how is that similar to what Krauss was saying at all? Homophobes don't have any legitimate arguments, it's usually that they are "grossed out" or it's "unnatural" or "The book of Leviticus says this". Krauss leaned much more towards incest being okay if you could be sure that they do not create a child.
Incest is much more complicated than homosexuality, I'm not sure why you don't account for that. Incest carries inherent risk due to the complications that occur with children born out of incest. At that point, you are putting a third party at risk of a life long mental or physical disability of some sort and that's wrong. It's difficult to assure that a man and woman committing incest will never create a child. I also think a bit of an unexplored area of concern would be if it's a mother/son or father/daughter relationship is when did that start, there are potential risks of it starting during the formative years of their child's life which goes into a very dark territory potentially. So answering whether incest is right or wrong is not so cut and dry, homosexuality is completely fine because it's two consenting adults who are not harming anyone.
Homophobes simply believe it's "gross"/"unnatural". They know it has nothing to do with their lives but the existence of something that people enjoy that lives outside of their approved experiences scares, confuses and insults them. Rather than critique that feeling in themselves like an adult, they just seek to destroy the people that don't fit. It's inherently illogical.
Basically. My dad's rationale is that it's not "normal", and by teaching people to accept it, liberals are trying to force society to change and destroy American and Christian values. Additionally, biology and evolution gives species male and female sexes and reproduction for a reason, so same sex relationships are biologically wrong and inhuman
When it comes to xenophobia, islamophobia and racism, I can totally see it stemming from us living in a society where we are constantly bombarded with information that makes us afraid of "others", but when it comes to not being heterosexual, we know it's not a choice and that it can be anyone. It's not either like people are able to use the kind of arguments they use for other kinds of phobias, like "All muslims are terrorist".
I think it comes down to people just being stupid. Far too often I've overheard people talk about they aren't comfortable around gay people because they just assume they'll get hit on.
What arguments do homophobes use exactly and how is that similar to what Krauss was saying at all? Homophobes don't have any legitimate arguments, it's usually that they are "grossed out" or it's "unnatural" or "The book of Leviticus says this". Krauss leaned much more towards incest being okay if you could be sure that they do not create a child.
My limited english is a problem here but I'll try to explain my point. I seems to me that Krauss is a bit dishonest when answering the question. I'm not a mind reader but his body language, insecurity when answering etc tells me he hadn't given the comparision much taught before the debate. Like me, I think he sees the contradiction, the double standards of thinking homosexuality is ok, but incest is not and therefore has to say that it's ok if pregnancy isn't a "risk".
Incest is much more complicated than homosexuality, I'm not sure why you don't account for that. Incest carries inherent risk due to the complications that occur with children born out of incest. At that point, you are putting a third party at risk of a life long mental or physical disability of some sort and that's wrong. It's difficult to assure that a man and woman committing incest will never create a child. I also think a bit of an unexplored area of concern would be if it's a mother/son or father/daughter relationship is when did that start, there are potential risks of it starting during the formative years of their child's life which goes into a very dark territory potentially. So answering whether incest is right or wrong is not so cut and dry, homosexuality is completely fine because it's two consenting adults who are not harming anyone.
I've havn't been clear in my previous posts. I aknowledge that if you take pregnancy into account it makes it much "easier" to oppose incest, but I'm solely talking about situations where a child is out of the question.
Would you have a problem with you brother and sister having a relationship if it's impossible for them to have a child?
People are juet generally scared of what they don't know. It's pretty simple actually. Being scared leads to things such as hatred, religious beliefs, etc.
People are juet generally scared of what they don't know. It's pretty simple actually. Being scared leads to things such as hatred, religious beliefs, etc.
I'm watching the Master of None episode about Denise being gay and her mother's reaction to it, and I just started thinking how we can still have people being homophobic.
When it comes to xenophobia, islamophobia and racism, I can totally see it stemming from us living in a society where we are constantly bombarded with information that makes us afraid of "others", but when it comes to not being heterosexual, we know it's not a choice and that it can be anyone. It's not either like people are able to use the kind of arguments they use for other kinds of phobias, like "All muslims are terrorist".
Other people's sexuality has no bearing on your life, so how the fuck can you logically have an excuse for being homophobic? Unless we're talking someone who's a religious fanatic with lots of hate in their heart, wtf?
I didn't have hate in my heart when I was a Christian and I thought it was a sin. The Bible has some pretty strong condemnations of it that are hard to take other than literally, like Leviticus 20:13:
People don't like and don't take time to understand people are different from themselves. So they think of someone having gay sex, insert themselves into the equation, and decide how wrong that seems.
Instead of plainly accepting someone's different. Or considering that many homosexuals who attempted heterosexual sex, have felt incredibly unnatural themselves. I've certainly seen parents, not out of hatred, but out of sheer refusal to accept difference, act completely selfish and ignorant in regards to friends or family's homosexuality.
I don't think their shaking in their boots scared per se. Just frustratingly tone deaf to diversity/difference, and an egotistical inability to remove themselves from scenarios that really pisses me off. Which we see in everything "White lives matter too"
This in addition to all the other reasons people posted. Because there is hatred and ignorance as well from certain people. But in large numbers, there's also this flaw in people to see the world outside of themselves, and recognize its significance. Basic flaws in empathy.
I didn't have hate in my heart when I was a Christian and I thought it was a sin. The Bible has some pretty strong condemnations of it that are hard to take other than literally, like Leviticus 20:13:
Unfortunately, I can't claim religion had any weight on my aversion as a teen, though I was a Christian at the time.
Getting away from religion is what got me to start questioning everything about how I thought which naturally led to me talking with gay and trans individuals. Though I never did anything wrong, it's still a bit mortifying to think back on.
I think it comes down to people just being stupid. Far too often I've overheard people talk about they aren't comfortable around gay people because they just assume they'll get hit on.
Propably a trait that has survived through the evolution: fear of the unknown. A very useful trait in general for survival in the super old days. Homophobia is one of the things the said trait seems to translate into.
It's ultimately not about logic. People feel like it's weird and gross, and then everything else (deciding it's immoral, etc.) is an attempt to justify that emotional reaction.
Religion 99% of the time is the reason one way or another. Even if not directly, religion has created the hateful environment in society against it. That fosters hate and while not from the religion itself at that point that environment existed only because of religion.
The more I think about it, the more I think that a massive reason for homophobia, and the hatred towards especially male homosexuals is rooted in the societal conditioning in regards to what's manly and what's womanly, and the expecting that all members of society adhere to these artificial categories of masculine and feminine.
Taking this to an extreme:
A man has to be strong, show no emotions, has to like "manly" things, usually ones that expose their societal standing in a positive way (i.e. cars), or that they can protect "their woman" through strength and doing handiwork around the house that women are too weak to do. Men aren't allowed to be sensitive, enjoy unmanly things like flowers or such.
The same goes for women of course, who also are expected to prettify themselves with makeup, clothing and jewelry in order to be more desirable for men.
Now while there's plenty of "manly" gay men, a lot of them also do not fall into these hard borders. They can be sensitive and emotional, they can be weak, and they can appreciate "womanly" things such as, say, sewing or flowers.
This goes even into more sexual territory as well. There's this whole train of thought that a man who penetrates another man isn't unmanly, but a man who gets penetrated loses his masculinity because they got "overpowered" and even "humiliated". And of course there's plenty of gay men who get penetrated voluntarily - as such they surrender their status as a man.
There also is a massive apprehension of society when it comes to men showing affection for each other. While women kissing, hugging, holding hands, etc. is not considered to be anything strange, the circle closes with the fact that men doing the same will be stigmatized as them being gay.
This is why particularly conservative society who still have this antiquated categories drilled into their mind think it's "wrong" or "gross" - it simply does not fit into their world view. It's not allowed for a man to be weak or even voluntarily give up their manliness.
And finally, many men are scared of being the target of the advances of gay men
and completely ignore the irony of the fact that women fear the same from them!
, thinking that they're so desirable to everybody that even gays would tear themselves apart to get a hold of that (presumably straight) guy's cock.
It is all based on Abrahamic influences, I think. before Western influence and colonization, many cultures (including ancient ones) have not condemned homosexuals, and many things that are considered to be "gay" by Western society were completely normal by their standards too.
Moving over to Lesbians, the way they experienced harassment is completely different to that of gay men. The hatred that Lesbians receive is... bizarre. Because many even homophobic straight men think that Lesbian porn is hot. That is mostly because of the objectification of women. In these men's mind, Lesbians simply are women who "haven't had a good dicking yet", and that they could convert them with their sexual prowess.
And of course, when it comes to things like denying equal rights, and mounting protests and hatred against homosexuals, it's not about that they care what a gay couple do in their bed or if they have the same name or not. It's mostly about power. By denying gays rights, people like these are executing some sort of strength over people who (currently) are weaker than them. Because it feels good to suppress others and make them suffer. There's nothing that feels better to those people than to ensure that those beneath them suffer.
The normalization of homophobia only helps support the bigots though. Using "gay" synonymous to "lame", "bad", "trash", etc., as well as generally homophobic slurs like "faggot", "cocksucker", etc. all heavily contribute to an atmosphere where homophobic mentality can grow and fester.
In retrospect, I shouldn't have written this up so late, I feel like it comes off as just incoherent rambling. I apologize.
