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[ExVicis]

I read through the series from the start waaaay back in the day when I was in grade school, and was along for the ride until Sanderson finished it up.

I enjoyed it for what it was, but there is so much bloat to the series I have a hard time recommending it to anyone else. It should really be a third as long as it is. Long as the series is, events STILL come off feeling rushed at the conclusion: had Jordan not died I doubt it would have ended by now.

I was able to recommend successfully to a friend this book some years back. But there were also a Sword of Truth fan, so I'm not sure if they're anything to go off of.


Yeah the books are great for me. I like reading them and re-reading them and it has a lot going on with it for me. But in suggesting it I just think of that horrible section of the books around Winter's Heart where it kind of just gets bogged down on itself and I can't really in good faith say that part is interesting or enjoyable to read. Especially when cliffhangers or an escalation of things happen in a previous book...then never get mentioned or touched on in the next except maaaaaaybe at the very end.

But at least by that point Jordan quit talking about Perrin and his fucking Yellow eyes. god fucking damn that shit was annoying the first read around.

 

[Incendiary]

As far as Mat goes, I hated him in books 1 and 2 for his breathtaking idiocy. "Don't touch anything here, the city is evil" and what does he fucking do? But I was told as soon as he gets out of bed, he has his first awesome moment where he defeats 2 warder trained soldiers. So I was thinking "how is he gonna pull that off?" Turns out, for no reason whatsoever, of course!

He just used a quarter staff. He was still injured and unable to walk easily, but he took out two trained soldiers, one of them being the best of the lot I think, no no reason I could make out. And then the sargeant gives a speech about how some world's greatest swordsman got his ass beat by a farmer with a quarterstaff. If quarterstaffs are for some bizarre reason such inherently better weapons that a half crippled idiot that never used one before can beat two of the best sword fighters, then you'd think they'd just ditch the swords.

If that's what you guys mean about Mat becoming awesome, then....I'll pass, to say the least. That's not awesome. Awesomeness has to be earned, and that was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Not even his luck can be used as an explanation since training is supposed to eliminate the element of luck.

You're confusing "does awesome things" with "is an awesome character." Mat is legit the best character of the series and it's because of the development and who he is, not that he's Batman and has a bunch of cool action scenes. He's such a tool the first two books, but he ended up probably one of my all-time favorite characters in written fiction. That being said, I don't even remember the quarterstaff scene, which should give you an indication of how important it is in the grand scheme of things to the character.

Honestly, I'd love a collection of the Wheel of Time that was just all of Mat's viewpoint put together in an anthology. I'd totally reread that - it's tough making myself reread the whole series when I know the mid series slog is there.

 

[Aikidoka]

It's been a long time since I've read up part-way through Crossroads of Twilight. Boy, did the start of that book royally piss me off (iirc). Winter's Heart ends, abruptly, with things actually happening for the first time in 1500 pages. So, naturally, the next book (CoT) begins months before the ending of WH, and I quit after 300 pages of stupid luck shit. But, the events of WH probably wouldn't have been that interesting anyways. Seemingly, "epic" moments like the

Spoiler

cleansing of Saidin

just sort of happen with not much real actual substance to them. Though the friend who recommended the books to me just thought it was the most epic thing he'd ever read.

 

[Brushguy Woodthreep]

The great thing about Mat is his attitude to the whole thing. He's an average dude who has no interest in being a leader or saving the world - he'd rather spend all his time gambling and flirting with the ladies - but circumstances and an awesome superpower mean he's sort of stuck continually falling into positions where people respect him and look up to him and he hates it. That's before you even get to his hilarious "opposites attract" romance arc with the queen of the slave-owning foreign land of evil.

You don't get much of that in the early books, but he becomes one of the more memorable mainstays as the series goes on. I even loved Branderson's take on him, which a lot of people didn't.

 

[sasliquid]

Book 4 was the last I read but I plan to continue, I thought some of the law stuff was really cool in that one but the beginning and much of the 3rd book really dragged

 

[studyguy]

This is why I reread the whole series on audiobook and just left it on during the day. The middle books are all basically background noise with interesting bits every now and then.

 

[ExVicis]

You're confusing "does awesome things" with "is an awesome character." Mat is legit the best character of the series and it's because of the development and who he is, not that he's Batman and has a bunch of cool action scenes. He's such a tool the first two books, but he ended up probably one of my all-time favorite characters in written fiction. That being said, I don't even remember the quarterstaff scene, which should give you an indication of how important it is in the grand scheme of things to the character.

Honestly, I'd love a collection of the Wheel of Time that was just all of Mat's viewpoint put together in an anthology. I'd totally reread that - it's tough making myself reread the whole series when I know the mid series slog is there.

Mat honestly could have his own book series. He probably honestly encountered the most ridiculous bullshit in his story while being the most likable and personable of the ta'veren.

 

[Veelk]

You're confusing "does awesome things" with "is an awesome character." Mat is legit the best character of the series and it's because of the development and who he is, not that he's Batman and has a bunch of cool action scenes. He's such a tool the first two books, but he ended up probably one of my all-time favorite characters in written fiction. That being said, I don't even remember the quarterstaff scene, which should give you an indication of how important it is in the grand scheme of things to the character.

Honestly, I'd love a collection of the Wheel of Time that was just all of Mat's viewpoint put together in an anthology. I'd totally reread that - it's tough making myself reread the whole series when I know the mid series slog is there.

Well, when I ask people to explain it, all they do is give me stuff like "becomes a trickster general"

Besides, waht characters do is relevant to who they are as a character. You don't have to do awesome stuff to be an awesome character, but it's definitely relevant to it. Besides, I know he does do stuff that's atleast supposed to be awesome like "comes up with a plan off hand that took experienced generals a week to put together", which is only superficially cool unless it's actually earned.

So hit me. Whats awesome about Mat? I've read 3.5 books. If he got impressive after book 2, I haven't seen it. He's just bitched and moaned as the magic of plot scurried him along. In book 4, he's fell for the most obvious "genie elves give you 3 questions then trick you into asking useless ones and give you nonanswers", which makes him go to the other place where he meets other elves that give him something similar, then attack him, so he hauls ass and gets out of there while grabbing a spear and a medallion on the way.

So what? Whats the awesome thing here?

The great thing about Mat is his attitude to the whole thing. He's an average dude who has no interest in being a leader or saving the world - he'd rather spend all his time gambling and flirting with the ladies - but circumstances and an awesome superpower mean he's sort of stuck continually falling into positions where people respect him and look up to him and he hates it. That's before you even get to his hilarious "opposites attract" romance arc with the queen of the slave-owning foreign land of evil.

You don't get much of that in the early books, but he becomes one of the more memorable mainstays as the series goes on. I even loved Branderson's take on him, which a lot of people didn't.

That...doesn't sound impressive at all.

Especially since basically all the Ta'veren resent their destiny. Rand did all he could to weasel out of being the dragon the first 3 books and bitched about it the whole way through, and now Perrin is like "Why the fuck you looking at me" to the two rivers people.

Is that whole slightly meta thing about "oh, I am not a hero in a story!" thing all that you guys are getting at?

 

[Regiruler]

I got through book 1. So much travelling and then the end wtf? Got about halfway through book 2 and debating whether to try picking it back up or whether I need to restart book 1...

The ending to book 1 is really weird.
Book 2 is a lot more well-rounded.

Yeah 8-10 was rough. Other then some superhero Rand stuff and anything with Matt, most of the storylines were strikeouts.

Which one had mat meticulously plan backstories to enter a village? That was probably the funniest bit in the entire series.
EDIT: Oh that's 12, thought it happened in one of the middle books.

 

[HStallion]

These books are better read one after the other in short succession. My issue was that I read them as they were releasing and while Jordan was never as bad as GRRM in terms of releasing it was very hard to keep up with all the hundreds of side characters, side plots and so on. Worse was when Jordan started resurrecting villains but giving them totally new bodies so one time men were women but he never told who they once were except for hinting at a few. It was a fucking nightmare to keep track of things and then he starts involving entirely other dimensions and I really started to get confused.

 

[Draxal]

Going to quote Brandon Sanderson about book 4 again.

I love this book. From the trip into Rhuidean, to Rand’s reveals, to Asmodean. Rand really seizes his destiny for the first time here, rather than being shoved around. Egwene comes into her own, in my opinion, as a real major character.

And, of course, there’s Mat.

Often when longtime fans read the series over again, they’re surprised by how little Mat is in the first two books. He starts doing cool things in book three, but it’s really in this volume that his personality solidifies.

Mat, is just such an enjoyable read, and pretty much the only reason to read 7-10.

 

[Regiruler]

Going to quote Brandon Sanderson about book 4 again.



Mat, is just such an enjoyable read, and pretty much the only reason to read 7-10.

Was book 4 the one with the pillars of Rhuidean sequence?

 

[Draxal]

Was book 4 the one with the pillars of Rhuidean sequence?

Yes, the shadow rising.

 

[Brushguy Woodthreep]

That...doesn't sound impressive at all.

Especially since basically all the Ta'veren resent their destiny. Rand did all he could to weasel out of being the dragon the first 3 books and bitched about it the whole way through, and now Perrin is like "Why the fuck you looking at me" to the two rivers people.

Is that whole slightly meta thing about "oh, I am not a hero in a story!" thing all that you guys are getting at?

I'm not really trying to sell you on the series. In the end, it's not for you, and I doubt anything we can say here will convince you.

But my personal view: Mat tends to bitch about his destiny in an entertaining and lovable fashion, rather than in the same kind of angsty, self-serious fashion as Rand ("oh no, I'm going crazy and my past life is talking to me") and Perrin ("this extended metaphor about a hammer and an axe is growing awfully thin after a dozen books"). There's sort of an "oh god, not this again" quality that I guess is slightly meta, but a lot of it's just the way he reacts to things when placed in increasingly ridiculous situations that makes his chapters fun to read.

The general idea of resenting your destiny is basically inherent to any hero's journey (and WoT is just ~6 hero's journeys stuck together and run in parallel). In the end, all the protagonists of course rise to meet their destinies. It's just a difference in the attitude they have along the way that determines how much of a fan favourite they are.

 

[Version 3.0]

Book 4? But that was one of the good ones. Maybe the best one.

If you'd said 6, 7, 8...I'd get it.

 

[ExVicis]

It's been a long time since I've read up part-way through Crossroads of Twilight. Boy, did the start of that book royally piss me off (iirc). Winter's Heart ends, abruptly, with things actually happening for the first time in 1500 pages. So, naturally, the next book (CoT) begins months before the ending of WH, and I quit after 300 pages of stupid luck shit. But, the events of WH probably wouldn't have been that interesting anyways. Seemingly, "epic" moments like the

Spoiler

cleansing of Saidin

just sort of happen with not much real actual substance to them. Though the friend who recommended the books to me just thought it was the most epic thing he'd ever read.

Yeah Winter's Heart is probably the weakest part of the series. The whole Saidin thing in that book was treated basically like a chore. It was almost like "Oh yeah I guess we gotta go do the thing. Hey Nynaeve, I need your help to go do this." and that was it. Probably one of the most looming threatening backstory bits of the series, just kind of hand waved away. Barely even focused on for a lot of the book if I remember right. Very anti-climatic.




Also the reason why Mat's interesting is the same way that any kind of Roguish character with good to bad luck is. Mat's basically just a schmuck who doesn't really so much as resent his fate as he's just feels really inconvenienced by it. His reaction to things always like "oh goddammit not this shit again!" as he tries to basically just fumbles his way through the circus that his life. He continually gets through events by luck and knows it but also knows the luck works against him as well. He really doesn't want his fate, but he care for it either. He just want to get through all this crap and be done with it. Mat is basically the every man of the story and extremely relatable to a lot of people and I think that's his main draw. So it's fun to watch this guy whop doesn't have wolf powers or crazy magic nonsense go through the worst shit ever and weather it out.

 

[Incendiary]

Well, when I ask people to explain it, all they do is give me stuff like "becomes a trickster general"

Besides, waht characters do is relevant to who they are as a character. You don't have to do awesome stuff to be an awesome character, but it's definitely relevant to it. Besides, I know he does do stuff that's atleast supposed to be awesome like "comes up with a plan off hand that took experienced generals a week to put together", which is only superficially cool unless it's actually earned.

So hit me. Whats awesome about Mat? I've read 3.5 books. If he got impressive after book 2, I haven't seen it. He's just bitched and moaned as the magic of plot scurried him along. In book 4, he's fell for the most obvious "genie elves give you 3 questions then trick you into asking useless ones and give you nonanswers", which makes him go to the other place where he meets other elves that give him something similar, then attack him, so he hauls ass and gets out of there while grabbing a spear and a medallion on the way.

So what? Whats the awesome thing here?

If that's how you want to describe Mat in book 4, I just don't think you're going to enjoy the character or series at all. Him falling ass-backwards into authority with the Seanchan and how that entire storyline plays out is one of the highlights of the series, but I can probably see you summing it up with a few snarky comments and saying "so? That wasn't interesting at all."

Honestly, his negotiations with the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are central to his character arc and basically where everything starts to get good for him, and if you're already offhandedly dismissing it as nothing important then I think you're just not going to be a fan of him or WoT. Wheel of Time is all about the prophecies and weird shit being foreshadowed and then showing up four books later and you going "ohhhhhh!" Everything that happens in book 4 leads to Mat's awesomeness - due to his wishes he becomes a general of a ragtag army, he's immune to Aes Sedai manipulation (which is great when you start tiring of the Aes Sedai and how infuriating they can be at times), and his relationship with Tuon is miles better than Perrin/Faile and Rand/harem.

 

[Skilletor]

That...doesn't sound impressive at all.

Especially since basically all the Ta'veren resent their destiny. Rand did all he could to weasel out of being the dragon the first 3 books and bitched about it the whole way through, and now Perrin is like "Why the fuck you looking at me" to the two rivers people.

Is that whole slightly meta thing about "oh, I am not a hero in a story!" thing all that you guys are getting at?

Do you want people to talk you into liking the series? lol.

I read the OP, even agree with some of it, but it just sounds like the series isn't for you. You gave it a shot, you didn't like it. People are saying, "I liked it because reasons." and your responses are, "I don't like that." It basically boils down to things not bothering other readers as much as it does you.

Do you feel like you have to like WoT for some reason? Or are you confused that people do?

 

[Veelk]

I'm not really trying to sell you on the series. In the end, it's not for you, and I doubt anything we can say here will convince you.

But my personal view: Mat tends to bitch about his destiny in an entertaining and lovable fashion, rather than in the same kind of angsty, self-serious fashion as Rand ("oh no, I'm going crazy and my past life is talking to me") and Perrin ("this extended metaphor about a hammer and an axe is growing awfully thin after a dozen books"). There's sort of an "oh god, not this again" quality that I guess is slightly meta, but a lot of it's just the way he reacts to things when placed in increasingly ridiculous situations that makes his chapters fun to read.

The general idea of resenting your destiny is basically inherent to any hero's journey (and WoT is just ~6 hero's journeys stuck together and run in parallel). In the end, all the protagonists of course rise to meet their destinies. It's just a difference in the attitude they have along the way that determines how much of a fan favourite they are.

I'm not trying to be convinced, I'm pretty much done with the series. But I am trying to understand. I really, really see little appealing in this series, and it's cool that you disagree. I just like to see beyond the disagreement and see why it is so.

I'm not sure resenting the hero's journey is part of it. I think characters dislike having to pay the price of the heroes journey (usually a dead family). But plenty of people actually enjoy it a lot. Hell, Egwene is outright enthused about becoming an Aes Sedai. She's an entitled brat that complaints everything is not handed to her on a platter, but she jumps straight into the journey with joy.

I guess I don't see a major difference with his bitchiness and Rand's/Perrin's. I mean, I do agree that it's less angsty and more....idk, not jovial but...Lighthearted? But while theirs are like "Woe is me!", he seems more like grumbles and grunts to himself in having to do these things.

I can definitely see how that would make his journey less tiresome than the constant bitchfests that are the other characters. But usually, that's accompanied by wit or something that genuinely makes me laugh. Nothing like that has happened with any character. That's one big problem for me. These characters are all so stupid, the prose is so overly wrong, it's hard to get any actual sharp wit in there, which is key for a trickster character like Mat.

Do you want people to talk you into liking the series? lol.

I read the OP, even agree with some of it, but it just sounds like the series isn't for you. You gave it a shot, you didn't like it. People are saying, "I liked it because reasons." and your responses are, "I don't like that." It basically boils down to things not bothering other readers as much as it does you.

Do you feel like you have to like WoT for some reason? Or are you confused that people do?

None of that. I just don't see why we need to agree on enjoying a series in order to discuss how we feel about it.

If that's how you want to describe Mat in book 4, I just don't think you're going to enjoy the character or series at all. Him falling ass-backwards into authority with the Seanchan and how that entire storyline plays out is one of the highlights of the series, but I can probably see you summing it up with a few snarky comments and saying "so? That wasn't interesting at all."

Honestly, his negotiations with the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are central to his character arc and basically where everything starts to get good for him, and if you're already offhandedly dismissing it as nothing important then I think you're just not going to be a fan of him or WoT. Wheel of Time is all about the prophecies and weird shit being foreshadowed and then showing up four books later and you going "ohhhhhh!" Everything that happens in book 4 leads to Mat's awesomeness - due to his wishes he becomes a general of a ragtag army, he's immune to Aes Sedai manipulation (which is great when you start tiring of the Aes Sedai and how infuriating they can be at times), and his relationship with Tuon is miles better than Perrin/Faile and Rand/harem.

It's less that I see the importance and more that I'm just thoroughly unimpressed with how he handles himself. There was a similar situation to his in Name of the Wind where the character wants to ask 3 questions, while the person he's talking to is trying to make him waste those questions. It was a very smart back and forth. The main character gives his questions carefully, the other guy is forced to give thorough answers as they go. Looking at Mat's sitaution, where he bumblefucks his way through the ordeal, not asking the questions in an intelligent way and not knowing what to make of the answers, by contrast, it's....I'm not sure what positive feelings I'm supposed to have here. The guy handled it awfully, falling for every predictable and cliche trap. That's the problem I have, not that I dislike prophecies in and of themselves, but in the moment to moment character interaction, Mat's every bit of as much of an idiot as anyone else in this series.

For the record, the 'manipulations' of the aes sedai haven't exactly wowed me either. Most of the time, they just tell information like it is, which happens to coincide with what they want, and the characters are all like "Drat! You damn Aes Sedai, always pulling on our strings like we're puppets!"

 

[ExVicis]

I guess I don't see a major difference with his bitchiness and Rand's/Perrin's. I mean, I do agree that it's less angsty and more....idk, not jovial but...Lighthearted? But while theirs are like "Woe is me!", he seems more like grumbles and grunts to himself in having to do these things.

Honestly the fact that it's different kind of resentment it what makes it interesting. It really seems like Mat would just be cool lazying about under a tree chewing on a pipe or something for the rest of his life but the universe basically is conspiring to make him get off his ass and be someone. That juxtaposition is what makes him probably the most interesting and fun element in the book.


But I'm not really going to try to convince you about this. It's pretty clear the series isn't for you and that's fine. I could continue to try to explain my reasoning for why I like this and that in the book or help you to understand but that really just comes to be me trying to sell you on the book. It's clear we have different tastes. Hell you I think seemed to like NotW and I hated that book so much I didn't even finish it. So eh, to each their own.

 

[Skilletor]

None of that. I just don't see why we need to agree on enjoying a series in order to discuss how we feel about it.

If that's how you want to describe Mat in book 4, I just don't think you're going to enjoy the character or series at all. Him falling ass-backwards into authority with the Seanchan and how that entire storyline plays out is one of the highlights of the series, but I can probably see you summing it up with a few snarky comments and saying "so? That wasn't interesting at all."

Basically this.

I never said anybody needs to agree or like the series to have a discussion. But your language is insulting and dismissive. There's really no discussion to be had.

 

[Mighty Chin]

I'm glad you stopped more good stories for me to enjoy.

 

[Herne]

I would recommend Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince and Dragon Star trilogies (but not her unfinished Exiles trilogy) for anyone looking for a good fantasy series, but sadly they're not available digitally yet :/

 

[Veelk]

Basically this.

I never said anybody needs to agree or like the series to have a discussion. But your language is insulting and dismissive. There's really no discussion to be had.

Of the series, yes, I'm insulting it. I have no compulsions about insulting a series I find pretty terrible. It really ends up being a bad discussion when parties can't express their feelings on objects honestly.

I respect the fans of it though. People are a different matter than the books themselves. That's where room for discussion can be had.

I'm glad you stopped more good stories for me to enjoy.

Uh.....what? I don't understand this remark.

Honestly the fact that it's different kind of resentment it what makes it interesting. It really seems like Mat would just be cool lazying about under a tree chewing on a pipe or something for the rest of his life but the universe basically is conspiring to make him get off his ass and be someone. That juxtaposition is what makes him probably the most interesting and fun element in the book.


But I'm not really going to try to convince you about this. It's pretty clear the series isn't for you and that's fine. I could continue to try to explain my reasoning for why I like this and that in the book or help you to understand but that really just comes to be me trying to sell you on the book. It's clear we have different tastes. Hell you I think seemed to like NotW and I hated that book so much I didn't even finish it. So eh, to each their own.

Again, I'm not looking to be persuaded, I'm mostly looking to understand and discuss. I'm asking as a way to explore other's viewpoints, not shoot them down.

I do agree that sounds like a fun juxaposition, and I'm glad you enjoyed Jordan's execution of it. It's just that Mat's been exactly that for a while and he hasn't really stunned me with it. I mean, just looking at this book, it's not like he was actually forced to do anything. If he wanted to leave, he could have. It's more his concious forcing him to stay than the universe itself.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

As few others have stated I think you might be overthinking things OP. I have read this series 5 times (although only the last book once) but I have plans again to start again after I finish a few other books.

The series is my personal all time favorite and you will regret it, IMO, if you quit and deny yourself from finishing the series. The books slow down around the time Jordan got sick and one in particular "Path of Daggers" was just bad. However that cannot take away from the genius of the world building and the AMAZING cast of characters that just get better over time.

Also, the last three books written by Sanderson are some of my favorites in the series, it was a return to the early books in my eyes and Sanderson did an incredible job finishing the story. Give it a chance OP, please you will not regret it in the end I promise.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I have read a lot of fantasy in my time and sadly this series is the best of the pulpy fantasy (i.e. not high concept LoTR style or gritty GRRM style) that I have come across. I am really down on the genre to be honest.

 

[Figboy79]

I also stopped reading at about Book 4. I really couldn't stand any of the characters. Like, I hated their guts, with maybe one or two exceptions I can't remember at the time. It's one thing when you're reading a book, and you're on board with the characters, because you can empathize or understand them, but in the WoT books, I just couldn't stand them. They did stupid, foolish things, just to be contrary, or because the plot needed them to. I also found Rand to be one of the most uninteresting and unlikable protagonists in a book I've read since Catcher in the Rye. I had heard such wonderful things about the Wheel of Time series, and I was looking to read as much good fantasy as I could. I wasn't really digging the first book, but I powered through it, because I was like, well, it's the first book, I'm sure it'll pick up. But I still didn't care for the second, and the third, and I got about halfway through book four before I said, "You know, there's books I could be reading that I'm actually enjoying." and put it down.

Nothing wrong with the people that enjoy the books, they just weren't for me. At least I gave them a shot.

 

[HStallion]

I have read a lot of fantasy in my time and sadly this series is the best of the pulpy fantasy (i.e. not high concept LoTR style or gritty GRRM style) that I have come across. I am really down on the genre to be honest.

I prefer a lot of the older pulpy stuff myself. The original Conan stories are often great reads then again those are true American pulp stories.

 

[FrontalMonk]

The funny thing about this thread is it kinda makes me want to start a reread now.

 

[Snowybreak]

Well I'd like to thank the OP for allowing me to not start this series. My brother has been hounding me to start it and I just keep saying "no motherfucker, I've got better shit to read." And now that I have some sort of reference I can finally say that I do have better shit to read.

I'll just continue with Discworld for now and hop on A Song Of Ice And Fire at some point. Fucking Discworld is the best and I'd suggest anyone who hasn't read it should definitely start with the first one. It's short and hilarious.

 

[Incendiary]

It's less that I see the importance and more that I'm just thoroughly unimpressed with how he handles himself. There was a similar situation to his in Name of the Wind where the character wants to ask 3 questions, while the person he's talking to is trying to make him waste those questions. It was a very smart back and forth. The main character gives his questions carefully, the other guy is forced to give thorough answers as they go. Looking at Mat's sitaution, where he bumblefucks his way through the ordeal, not asking the questions in an intelligent way and not knowing what to make of the answers, by contrast, it's....I'm not sure what positive feelings I'm supposed to have here. The guy handled it awfully, falling for every predictable and cliche trap. That's the problem I have, not that I dislike prophecies in and of themselves, but in the moment to moment character interaction, Mat's every bit of as much of an idiot as anyone else in this series.

For the record, the 'manipulations' of the aes sedai haven't exactly wowed me either. Most of the time, they just tell information like it is, which happens to coincide with what they want, and the characters are all like "Drat! You damn Aes Sedai, always pulling on our strings like we're puppets!"

Honest question: do you expect all characters to be the most clever and intelligent people ever? Mat's still closer to being a kid from the farmland at this point in the story over a master negotiator. To me, it makes more sense that he's an idiot who has trouble negotiating with these mystical tricksters than him being able to outwit them. That's why I say his character develops - by the end of book 13 when

Spoiler

he faces them again and does outwit them it's earned by his character.

I would think you would appreciate that more, especially since you didn't like how he was just suddenly able to beat two trained soldiers for no reason whatsoever.

Of the series, yes, I'm insulting it. I have no compulsions about insulting a series I find pretty terrible. It really ends up being a bad discussion when parties can't express their feelings on objects honestly.

As a heads up, insulting the series is all fine and dandy, but using dismissive language when people bring up counterpoints and their own opinions can make people annoyed and not want to discuss things with you.

 

[Krowley]

The funny thing about this thread is it kinda makes me want to start a reread now.

Same here.

 

[PantherLotus]

I got through A Path of Daggers (9?) before giving up.

Jordan isn't as bad as Goodkind, but there is absolutely a thing where some authors just like to punish the shit out of their characters while drilling down into a diaspora of sidequests that make latter books super hard to follow. GRRM could be falling victim to this as well.

 

[HStallion]

I got through A Path of Daggers (9?) before giving up.

Jordan isn't as bad as Goodkind, but there is absolutely a thing where some authors just like to punish the shit out of their characters while drilling down into a diaspora of sidequests that make latter books super hard to follow. GRRM could be falling victim to this as well.

Could be? He most certainly has.

 

[Mighty Chin]

I use to do a reread every year. Now it's every 2-3 years since it's such a large series.

I'll think I'll start again.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I loved books 1 to 7...8 was the worst due to lack of Matt. the series didn't really pick up again till book 11.

 

[ExVicis]

The funny thing about this thread is it kinda makes me want to start a reread now.

Same here actually. It's a shame my books got scattered in a recent move and now are mixed up with a bunch of my girlfriend's books.Tracking them all down will be a pain.

 

[Veelk]

Honest question: do you expect all characters to be the most clever and intelligent people ever? Mat's still closer to being a kid from the farmland at this point in the story over a master negotiator. To me, it makes more sense that he's an idiot who has trouble negotiating with these mystical tricksters than him being able to outwit them. That's why I say his character develops - by the end of book 13 when

Spoiler

he faces them again and does outwit them it's earned by his character.

I would think you would appreciate that more, especially since you didn't like how he was just suddenly able to beat two trained soldiers for no reason whatsoever.

No, but I don't, but this was like some of the most basic shit ever. Putting aside that he's supposed to be the trickster analog in the story, notion that, if you get 3 questions, you put in some thought to what those questions might be is something I'd expect anyone whose not an idiot to do. I'd also expect anyone whose not an idiot to not just demand shit from the mystic elf people who clearly do not have his best interests in mind like he does.

So no, I don't expect every person to be a genius, but what Mat did was distinctly moronic.

As for what I mean by earning it, I don't really mean level grinding until you have +12 INT so you can access Dialogue Option 4 to open up the questline that doesn't send you spiraling into death. What I mean is for their to be narrative reason to justify what happens in the moment. To make it believable. For instance, something as simple as Mat having promised to pay off the character beforehand to lose purposefully (wouldn't work with the Galad character we have there, but just pick some other rando and it's fine). Or else, if you wanted to beat him legit, make it so...idk, an Aes Sedai empowered him from behind the scenes to further some plot or another.

As it stands, it's just nonsensical. And there is also a statute of limitations on this too. You can't make events starkly unbelievable and then justify them 15000 pages later. As a reader, at some point, I stop caring because the payoff is just way too far away for it to be worth it.

As a heads up, insulting the series is all fine and dandy, but using dismissive language when people bring up counterpoints and their own opinions can make people annoyed and not want to discuss things with you.

I feel I go out of my way to substantiate why I don't feel a counter point is believable enough for me. I don't view that as dismissive (or, if it is dismissive, it's dismissive because I have reason to discredit it. If you dislike that, that's fine if you don't want to discuss things further. But the way I see it, I'm only obligated to respect you as a person who likes the series. I don't feel the need to respect the series, or even your arguments defending it. Just you.

 

[Purkake4]

If you're this far and don't like it, I think it's ok to put it down and go on with your life.

I love the series with all its flaws, but I did have the advantage of going through to book 11 via audiobooks during my boring summer job compiling orders at a warehouse. Having read quite a few fantasy series I have to say that while the padding in the middle gets annoying, the series does come together really well in the end, and Sanderson does a great job with Jordan's notes. The main characters can be dull at times, but Rand's arc comes to a really amazing conclusion in A Gathering Storm and Matt is great past the first few books. Perrin's stuff is trash, nothing to do about that.

One of my favorite parts (other than the descriptions of the magic system) was the Forsaken. You learn more about their past and each has quite an interesting story fleshing them out as characters rather than some unknowable evil. Also the wheel motif of everything having happened before and happening again is woven quite well into the story as well.

The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the third age by some, an Age yet to come, an age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

EDIT: Oh and Tar Valon is probably the only look I'll ever have into life and politics inside a nunnery.

 

[Incendiary]

As it stands, it's just nonsensical. And there is also a statute of limitations on this too. You can't make events starkly unbelievable and then justify them 15000 pages later. As a reader, at some point, I stop caring because the payoff is just way too far away for it to be worth it.

I think this is the crux of why you won't like the series and why any discussion isn't going to enlighten you on why other people enjoy it. Jordan takes his time for payoffs - there are visions/prophecies in book one that don't have payoff until book 9 or 10. If you don't enjoy it now you won't have the patience to get through the rest. But people who do love that kind of thing appreciate how much foreshadowing and thought Jordan put into weaving plot lines together.

I also understand the unwillingness to want to continue - it's like hating characters in a TV show but having people who watched it from the start tell you "but they become bearable in season 5, just keep watching!" If you don't like the characters there's just no point in continuing.

Also - Mat isn't a trickster analogue until after the events of book 4 - again, the events of book 4 are what sets him on his journey and development. He's supposed to be an idiot at that point and it's because he gets played like a fiddle that he starts changing into a more awesome character.

I feel I go out of my way to substantiate why I don't feel a counter point is believable enough for me. I don't view that as dismissive (or, if it is dismissive, it's dismissive because I have reason to discredit it. If you dislike that, that's fine if you don't want to discuss things further. But the way I see it, I'm only obligated to respect you as a person who likes the series. I don't feel the need to respect the series, or even your arguments defending it. Just you.

I think not respecting the argument is where you might lose some people in the debate - especially in a discussion about opinions. When you disrespect a person's opinion, it's easy for them to get irritated - just see how irritable discussing political issues makes most people. Also to clarify - I'm not irritated - I'm just a psychology major who can't help himself when talking about things like this. But I also don't want to derail the thread into a discussion about the psychology of discussion, either. Heh.

 

[Reg]

I'm about 75% through the first book. Don't think I will continue on after I get finished with this.

 

[Incendiary]

I'm about 75% through the first book. Don't think I will continue on after I get finished with this.

I didn't like the first book at all when I read it - it reminded me too much of a different take on Lord of the Rings. But my gf at the time (who made me read it in the first place) insisted it got better and I was getting laid so I kept reading and it does get better. But book one by itself is mostly a basic fantasy narrative with nothing special about it.

 

[ExVicis]

I didn't like the first book at all when I read it - it reminded me too much of a different take on Lord of the Rings. But my gf at the time (who made me read it in the first place) insisted it got better and I was getting laid so I kept reading and it does get better. But book one by itself is mostly a basic fantasy narrative with nothing special about it.

Essentially. Trollocs are basically Orcs and the Myrddraal are basically Ring Wraiths.

But it's in the later books, after 4, where all the crazy shit happens. In fact the best thing to happen in this book and I wish all of Fantasy would do it is

Spoiler

when Rand learns to teleport anywhere in the world and we completely do away with the whole "we have to journey to place!" and 5 chapters are spent describing a journey

. It's around that point where the book really gets interesting and it's less a typical Fantasy and more this crazy mix of things that, at the time I was reading these books, Fantasy didn't really do. A lot of the WoT plots are basically dealing with politics and the clash of traditional ideals in the face of adversity and a changing world.

 

[Purkake4]

Essentially. Trollocs are basically Orcs and the Myrddraal are basically Ring Wraiths.

But it's in the later books, after 4, where all the crazy shit happens. In fact the best thing to happen in this book and I wish all of Fantasy would do it is

Spoiler

when Rand learns to teleport anywhere in the world and we completely do away with the whole "we have to journey to place!" and 5 chapters are spent describing a journey

. It's around that point where the book really gets interesting and it's less a typical Fantasy and more this crazy mix of things that, at the time I was reading these books, Fantasy didn't really do. A lot of the WoT plots are basically dealing with politics and the clash of traditional ideals in the face of adversity and a changing world.

When you play Daes Dae'mar you either win or you die.

 

[Veelk]

I think this is the crux of why you won't like the series and why any discussion isn't going to enlighten you on why other people enjoy it. Jordan takes his time for payoffs - there are visions/prophecies in book one that don't have payoff until book 9 or 10. If you don't enjoy it now you won't have the patience to get through the rest. But people who do love that kind of thing appreciate how much foreshadowing and thought Jordan put into weaving plot lines together.

I also understand the unwillingness to want to continue - it's like hating characters in a TV show but having people who watched it from the start tell you "but they become bearable in season 5, just keep watching!" If you don't like the characters there's just no point in continuing.

Also - Mat isn't a trickster analogue until after the events of book 4 - again, the events of book 4 are what sets him on his journey and development. He's supposed to be an idiot at that point and it's because he gets played like a fiddle that he starts changing into a more awesome character.

I mean, I can appreciate foreshadowing. But yeah, I'm not wasting literally dozens of hours of my life in the hopes that a writer who hasn't demonstrated any amount of cleverness even in the characters that ARE supposed to be experienced and tricky (like the Aes Sedai) will suddenly be bombasting me with his wit.

The thing I guess I'm getting at here is lets pretend that I didn't have the internet. What is it about the book itself that shows me that I can expect good writing, when it's been nearly entirely bad?

Mat has been analogous to the trickster archtype since almost chapter 1. He's always the one whose playing tricks, trying to get away from responsibilities, trying to work around rules. You can say he grew into that archtype further on, but the standard pillars of his character were already there. Again, it's not that I expect him to be a super genius, but the things he did were so blatantly moronic that it's hard to be impressed by the things happening.

I think not respecting the argument is where you might lose some people in the debate - especially in a discussion about opinions. When you disrespect a person's opinion, it's easy for them to get irritated - just see how irritable discussing political issues makes most people. Also to clarify - I'm not irritated - I'm just a psychology major who can't help himself when talking about things like this. But I also don't want to derail the thread into a discussion about the psychology of discussion, either. Heh.

I'm not disrespecting your opinion, and so long as I'm providing rationale, I'm not even necessarily disrespecting your argument. I've give my full replies as best as I am able to. Even if I totally disagree with your argument and dismiss it as not applying to what I view as good writing, I don't see that as disrespectful. Maybe I'm not playing softball, but it's not like I'm just going "Nah, no way" and leaving it at that.

And this is less a psychology issue and more a rhetorics thing. I'm a psych grad myself. The closest thing to psychology here is how much people identify works (which can encompass both a fictional series or the arguments they make in the defense of that series) as part of themselves.

 

[Meffer]

I like Matt, he's the most entertaining parts in the series because his story is such a turn from everything else in it. He's a fool in the beginning but he learned his lesson and admits it. And the luck factor is fun too because it does fail him when he wants something else. So it's very risky for him but knows it's one of his most useful tools.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You'd really put 8 as a lower point than 10? I'm intrigued to know what you liked about book 10.

Unrelated, but I just remembered my other favourite least favourite thing about the series: the way the mini-bosses start getting killed off, but then a bunch of them get resurrected and keep going, like Jordan realised he'd killed them off too quickly. Sort of takes away the feeling of progression (and tension). Later books have the villains being just as silly and gossipy as the main characters, which is fun, but tough to take seriously.

Don't really remember the specifics of every book, but around 8-10 got slow, but one was utterly skippable. Whether it was 8 or 10 I dunno.

I like Matt, he's the most entertaining parts in the series because his story is such a turn from everything else in it. He's a fool in the beginning but he learned his lesson and admits it. And the luck factor is fun too because it does fail him when he wants something else. So it's very risky for him but knows it's one of his most useful tools.

Always hated how the Golden Girls treated him. He was a slut but with a heart of gold.

 

[V_Arnold]

You're confusing "does awesome things" with "is an awesome character." Mat is legit the best character of the series and it's because of the development and who he is, not that he's Batman and has a bunch of cool action scenes. He's such a tool the first two books, but he ended up probably one of my all-time favorite characters in written fiction. That being said, I don't even remember the quarterstaff scene, which should give you an indication of how important it is in the grand scheme of things to the character.

Honestly, I'd love a collection of the Wheel of Time that was just all of Mat's viewpoint put together in an anthology. I'd totally reread that - it's tough making myself reread the whole series when I know the mid series slog is there.

Actually, that was one of the first moments of Mat when you got to realize how much he and Rad had been through only by then.

The famed Younglings he dueled against (Galad and Gawyn, together, none the less) had ZERO real life experience up till that point, they only practiced. With real soldier experience, they could not be warders anyway. That was well estabilished. Mat? He was in plenty of fights by that time, he had to rely on his dexterity multiple times, and having a quarterstaff is a very good tool for that to be done. Not to mention the duo underestimated him.

So that was one of the most legit awesome moments of him, perfectly earned: he HAD experience, against trollocs, darkfriends and some against Lan (not to mention Abell's training ofc), while Galad and Gawyn were...well, prodigees but not the same. Warder-trainees.

Also, his health was absolutely fine (this is not in reply to you, it is in reply to the one you replied), his body was depleted (which was mentioned that after and during the fight, he almost just dropped out because he was not sure if he can even stand, but adrenaline helped him anyway) of storage but was healed, so he had physical strength. Just not the endurance yet, right.

Such an epic scene. And really, really do not want anyone spoil anything from the Memory of the Light, but

Spoiler

When Galad and Gawyn has the same experience against insane opponents.... well, that is a full circle. And then its time for the most badass swordsman to prove himself once again )

 

[BlastProcessing]

The Shadow Rising is my favorite book in the series, one that I have read countless times. Everything isn't for everybody, no reason to stick with something you aren't enjoying.

 

[Veelk]

Actually, that was one of the first moments of Mat when you got to realize how much he and Rad had been through only by then.

The famed Younglings he dueled against (Galad and Gawyn, together, none the less) had ZERO real life experience up till that point, they only practiced. With real soldier experience, they could not be warders anyway. That was well estabilished. Mat? He was in plenty of fights by that time, he had to rely on his dexterity multiple times, and having a quarterstaff is a very good tool for that to be done. Not to mention the duo underestimated him.

So that was one of the most legit awesome moments of him, perfectly earned: he HAD experience, against trollocs, darkfriends and some against Lan (not to mention Abell's training ofc), while Galad and Gawyn were...well, prodigees but not the same. Warder-trainees.

Also, his health was absolutely fine (this is not in reply to you, it is in reply to the one you replied), his body was depleted (which was mentioned that after and during the fight, he almost just dropped out because he was not sure if he can even stand, but adrenaline helped him anyway) of storage but was healed, so he had physical strength. Just not the endurance yet, right.

Such an epic scene. And really, really do not want anyone spoil anything from the Memory of the Light, but

Spoiler

When Galad and Gawyn has the same experience against insane opponents.... well, that is a full circle. And then its time for the most badass swordsman to prove himself once again )

He was exhausted enough that he took the quarter staff to use as a crutch since he had trouble walking on his own. And while real world experience is definitely good, being trained to use a sword isn't meaningless. Especailly when the experience that Mat had up until then was mostly lying on his back because his dumb ass was sick from the dagger. Besides that, I don't really remember Mat fighting much of anyone in the first two books. He was always just trying to survive the onslaught, if he wasn't lying in bed sick. The whole gang in general have done very little fighting. They mostly just tried to escape. Besides THAT, even if he did fight, I'm fairly sure he said this was the first time he wielded a quarterstaff, so any real life experience transfer would be rough at best.

So heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell no, it wasn't earned at all. Imo.