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[hosannainexcelsis]

I don't think anyone said anything bad about K-ON or Haruhi yet. Moe is not a bad thing. Like many things, it's the application is what matters. This particular conversation was about when moe as a trend caught the traction. It was definitely around K-ON time but it's not fault of KyoAni products for creating quality animation with moe elements and everyone trying to copy that without the context that makes their shows great (more often than not).

I wish more people imitated KyoAni. Girl-centric slice-of-life shows, often based on 4koma manga, were around before K-ON. See Azumanga Daioh and Hidamari Sketch. It's probably a more accurate reading of history to say that the popularity of the Haruhi anime started the boom in LN adaptation anime than that K-ON started anything.

I consider loli and moe to be seperate entites with loli being older (irony) but with moe catching in popularity some authors abused the chance to try to get loli into the mainstream.

Now you're just making up nonsense.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I dunno about that. While I'm sure loli existed long before the moe craze became popular, its got very similar traits. I've seen moe often called a fetish in places, so I don't think its out of the question to consider them much the same. Cute young girls doing cute things. Only one is sexual and cute at the same time.
Although I'm saying this, loli doesn't NECESSARILY have sexual connotations...It just usually does.

loli adapted moe traits . Before moe loli typically was only found in manga but moe getting anime adapted the loli used it as a way to into mainstream animation

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I dunno about that. While I'm sure loli existed long before the moe craze became popular, its got very similar traits. I've seen moe often called a fetish in places, so I don't think its out of the question to consider them much the same. Cute young girls doing cute things. Only one is sexual and cute at the same time.
Although I'm saying this, loli doesn't NECESSARILY have sexual connotations...It just usually does.

I wish more people imitated KyoAni. Girl-centric slice-of-life shows, often based on 4koma manga, were around before K-ON. See Azumanga Daioh and Hidamari Sketch. It's probably a more accurate reading of history to say that the popularity of the Haruhi anime started the boom in LN adaptation anime than that K-ON started anything.



Now you're just making up nonsense.

note by mainstreme I mean animated not super popular stuff sorry if my words therre made it seem like it was becoming norm

 

[Fencedude]

loli adapted moe traits . Before moe loli typically was only found in manga but moe getting anime adapted the loli used it as a way to into mainstream animation

Not to say you have no idea what you are talking about but...you quite literally have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Not to say you have no idea what you are talking about but...you quite literally have no idea what you are talking about

If you say so I still consider loli and moe seperate entities. Note I dont mean loli gets animated alot it doesnt thankfully but it does appear in light cases.

 

[cirrhosis]

if only holybaikal was still here to explain 'moe' for us

 

[Battlechili]

If you say so I still consider loli and moe seperate entities. Note I dont mean loli gets animated alot it doesnt thankfully but it does appear in light cases.

Loli gets animated all the time. Disregarding legit full on hentai animations, there's:

• Renkin Sankyuu Magical Pokann
• Kodomo No Jikan
• Ro-Kyu-Bu
• Bakemonogatari/Nisemonogatari/Monogatari S2
• Dance in the Vampire Bund
• Strike Witches
• No Game No Life

And uh....Y'know I can't think of that many. Mostly because I don't keep up with anime TOO much anymore and fanservice and loli anime isn't really my area of expertise. But I know there's more out there. Plenty, PLENTY more.

2005 or 2006 is about the time it became a real force in anime. Densha Otoko introduced the term to the lexicon for non-anime folks in 2004 and it sort of blew up after that.

Also, folks should read the link sixteen-bit posted. It's pretty good and layouts a lot of things. It also points out why folks associate moe with style, though in a sort of roundabout way.

Interesting. I didn't know all that. I'll be giving that a read shortly.

 

[MogCakes]

What happened to holybaikal?

 

[ShinRPGamer]

What happened to holybaikal?

Permabanned since January IIRC.

 

[Fencedude]

Loli gets animated all the time. Disregarding legit full on hentai animations, there's:

• Renkin Sankyuu Magical Pokann
• Bakemonogatari/Nisemonogatari/Monogatari S2
• Dance in the Vampire Bund
• No Game No Life

None of those are actually "hentai animations"

Also, how could you possibly make a list like that and not include Prisma Ilya? I mean really.

That being said, naked little girls have been an anime staple for 30+ years so I don't know why people think this is something new.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Loli gets animated all the time. Disregarding legit full on hentai animations, there's:

• Renkin Sankyuu Magical Pokann
• Bakemonogatari/Nisemonogatari/Monogatari S2
• Dance in the Vampire Bund
• No Game No Life

And uh....Y'know I can't think of that many. Mostly because I don't keep up with anime TOO much anymore and fanservice and loli anime isn't really my area of expertise. But I know there's more out there. Plenty, PLENTY more.Interesting. I didn't know all that. I'll be giving that a read shortly.

aye black bullet and no game no life are the only ones I seen to incorporate loli elements Black bullet was more blunt with it though(from what I known didnt finish ngnl) I managed to finish and like it and was more bothered by the fact they sold body pillows which is to be expected.

 

[Dennis]

if only holybaikal was still here to explain 'moe' for us

What happened to holybaikal?

Permabanned since January IIRC.

 

[Battlechili]

None of those are actually "hentai animations"

Well yeah. I did say I wasn't including hentai animations.

 

[Fencedude]

Well yeah. I did say I wasn't including hentai animations.

Somehow my eyes skimmed right over the "disregarding"

Anyway, this is not actually a new thing.

Like.

At all.

Completely separate from whether or not you think it should exist, it has been a part of anime for literally longer than most people in this thread have been alive and definitely longer than most of them have been watching anime.

Arguing over what "started" this is ridiculous because its like asking "what started mecha anime?" and having people starting to talk about fucking Gundam Seed. Its so entirely missing the context that the entire discussion is meaningless.

 

[GamerJM]

Man I miss HolyBaikal

I don't think she knew me but whenever I read her posts I could honestly relate to some of them >_>

 

[Battlechili]

Somehow my eyes skimmed right over the "disregarding"

Anyway, this is not actually a new thing.

Like.

At all.

Completely separate from whether or not you think it should exist, it has been a part of anime for literally longer than most people in this thread have been alive and definitely longer than most of them have been watching anime.

Arguing over what "started" this is ridiculous because its like asking "what started mecha anime?" and having people starting to talk about fucking Gundam Seed. Its so entirely missing the context that the entire discussion is meaningless.

Of course its been around forever. I think people want to know what popularized it. I mean, does it not seem more prevalent today than it used to be? And OP said that he wasn't super knowledgeable about anime, so he might not have even known that.

And mecha is a different entity altogether. It often seems like mecha was at its peak a LONG time ago and then died down over the years. Also, at least that one has a definitive date. Gigantor was the first mecha anime, was it not?

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Of course its been around forever. I think people want to know what popularized it. I mean, does it not seem more prevalent today than it used to be?

And mecha is a different entity altogether. It often seems like mecha was at its peak a LONG time ago and then died down over the years.

Not sure if more prevalent in fact may be less but easier to see in the limelight because of crunchyroll for example.

 

[Fencedude]

And mecha is a different entity altogether. It often seems like mecha was at its peak a LONG time ago and then died down over the years.

You completely missed my point. Like, its way the hell over there, while you are over staring at a spot on the wall.

The POINT is that this discussion is filled with people who literally have no idea what they are talking about, who's anime knowledge MAYBE extends back to the mid-nineties, but most of whom clearly only really know anime post say 2006ish.

Which is why I made an analogy to a discussion about mecha series that ignored everything pre-Gundam Seed. Or to maybe make it even clearer, ignored everything pre-Evangelion. Nothing will actually be learned because no one is bothering to actually educate themselves on the thing they are discussing. They are just throwing out what they "know" must be true, without bothering to find out if it actually is.

No one in this thread has mentioned Creamy Mami, for example. Someone, a moderator even, actually said that "moe" started with Cardcaptor Sakura for christsakes, which is utterly inane and ignores literally decades of Magical Girl series that came before.

None of this exists in a vacuum, and none of what you guys like to whine about just showed up out of nowhere in 2006.

 

[Shouta]

No one in this thread has mentioned Creamy Mami, for example. Someone, a moderator even, actually said that "moe" started with Cardcaptor Sakura for christsakes, which is utterly inane and ignores literally decades of Magical Girl series that came before.

None of this exists in a vacuum, and none of what you guys like to whine about just showed up out of nowhere in 2006.

I see you didn't actually read what I wrote. You really should chide anyone on what they're posting in that case.

 

[Fencedude]

I see you didn't actually read what I wrote. You really should chide anyone on what they're posting in that case.

Hmm...

CCS would be, IMO, the first big example of what we could be considered moe, in the modern sense of the word. The trend didn't start taking off until the mid-2000s though.

Yeah no seems pretty clear to me.

CCS didn't do anything, visually, that countless other series hadn't done before or since.

 

[dity]

Honestly I didn't see the whole "loli" thing take off until Lucky Star got mega popular. That series also liked to super focus on the whole moe thing. I kinda just assumed it went hand-in-hand.

Initially it was just characters that looked like the loli archetype (everyone's heights and whatnot were super messed up in LS), essentially an art style. But then people just full on went with little girls and it slippery slopes from there.

Before LS I remember anime with loli characters but like it wasn't to the degree of "make everyone look like a dwarf" as happened to slice of life series after 2007.

 

[Battlechili]

Hmm...

Yeah no seems pretty clear to me.

CCS didn't do anything, visually, that countless other series hadn't done before or since.

I think he's referring to the link he provided along with the information other information regarding moe as terminology.
But yeah, a lot of people are unaware of anime historically speaking. There's a lot of good stuff that goes under appreciated, and a lot of bad stuff no one has even heard of because they're focusing on the more popular modern works or the most popular of all of history's gems. But what can you expect? At least there'll be a couple decent quality responses that delve into anime's history with regards to moe and lolicon.

Also, sorry to change the subject but...you mentioned Creamy Mami earlier...Wasn't that funded for an R1 release recently on Anime Sols before it shut down? Really ought' to give it a watch.

 

[RustyNails]

Did loli/moe stuff came from mangas or anime?

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

If you say so I still consider loli and moe seperate entities. Note I dont mean loli gets animated alot it doesnt thankfully but it does appear in light cases.

I would like to know a) exactly how you are defining "loli" and "moe" and b) your sources for your assertions on this matter.

Also, this seems the place to bring up Lolita Anime, the porn OVA from 1984, and Pop Chaser, the porn OVA from 1985 which featured many animators who would go on to become big names in the industry (Hideaki Anno, Mahiro Maeda, Takeshi Honda, Toshiyuki Inoue, etc.).

 

[The Silver]

Honestly I didn't see the whole "loli" thing take off until Lucky Star got mega popular. That series also liked to super focus on the whole moe thing. I kinda just assumed it went hand-in-hand.

Initially it was just characters that looked like the loli archetype (everyone's heights and whatnot were super messed up in LS), essentially an art style. But then people just full on went with little girls and it slippery slopes from there.

Before LS I remember anime with loli characters but like it wasn't to the degree of "make everyone look like a dwarf" as happened to slice of life series after 2007.

ugh you reminded me of that Lucky Star craze on the internet, that was probably the 1st time I noticed and was made aware of "moe and loli" despite it obviously being around before then.

 

[Shouta]

Hmm...



Yeah no seems pretty clear to me.

CCS didn't do anything, visually, that countless other series hadn't done before or since.

Sure, it didn't do anything that other series hadn't done prior to it. That's not my point though. It's not the single elements that I'm referring to. CCS packaged it all together into a product that very much resembles what would be the big trend in anime production after the mid-2000s. It's the first series that I can think of that has those elements that invoke moe now.

 

[Fencedude]

It's the first series that I can think of has those elements that invoke moe now.

Uhhh...really? What elements exactly are you referring to. Just to make sure we are on the same page

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I would like to know a) exactly how you are defining "loli" and "moe" and b) your sources for your assertions on this matter.

Also, this seems the place to bring up Lolita Anime, the porn OVA from 1984, and Pop Chaser, the porn OVA from 1985 which featured many animators who would go on to become big names in the industry (Hideaki Anno, Mahiro Maeda, Takeshi Honda, Toshiyuki Inoue, etc.).

sure! no problem for me Im more forgiving than many with the accusation of a character being loli for me the character has to be clearly sexualized with respects to art and personality. For example I do not consider just plain naked scenes with a charcter to be a loli as if that was the case most anime with transformation or hot spring episodes would be loli. For Moe its much harder but it has do with behavior and a kind of innocents and light hearted feeling but I don't watch moe much so im not an expert as my comfort jam is more into shojo romance type stuff with occasional smut which pulls as my heartstrings much more than moe and also means im more into manga then anime.

 

[Busaiku]

You can't peg moe to any specific archetypes.
There's old men moe for crying out loud.

 

[Evilisk]

And then later you ended up with stuff like Nanoha, which takes on the aesthetic while being an action series for an older male audience. I've heard that part of the shift is due to the Windows reboot of the Touhou Project franchise, which sexualizes the girls while using shoujo-like designs. Although maybe it's the Touhou fans to blame if that's true, since fan works are are so big with that franchise.

To the bolded, that's just bullshit.

Somebody already posted the chart, so I'm not gonna post it again. But those are the canon designs of the main characters, and almost all other character get rendered in the same style. The only exception would be characters originating in games or works where ZUN isn't doing the art himself.

And while some characters have been sexualized by guest artists in spinoffs or printed material where ZUN doesn't do the art, those IMO wouldn't count. Partly, it's because there have still been errors made in regards to canon (despite being official), whether it be incorrect eye color or actually mistaking a character's alternate costume to being a completely new character.

But it's also because the portrayals don't remain consistent at all.

Here's one character

Original Art

Printed Work Appearance

Portrait art from Touhou 13.5

Portrait from Touhou 14.5

And her fighting game sprite (which originated in 13.5 and was reused in 14.5

While there's some consistency between her first two appearances, you can see there's a ridiculous discrepancy in portrayals in regard to her fighting game appearances. This process happens to all of the characters in the series popular enough to get multiple appearances (and this particular character is fairly recent too).

For most characters, they only get their original art and their appearance in a printed work.


Now the point about fan works, I can't argue that.

I don't know if it's had an effect because I only got into Touhou in 2013, and only started to heavily watch anime in 2010, while both have existed for longer than I've been paying attention.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

You can't peg moe to any specific archetypes.
There's old men moe for crying out loud.

When are old men not Moe? Old men are max level moe they are what all moe girls turn into when they get older.

 

[Paracelsus]

TakeuchiP won a character popularity contest over some Idolmaster schoolgirls, didn't he?

 

[Shouta]

Uhhh...really? What elements exactly are you referring to. Just to make sure we are on the same page

It's not just the elements individually as I said it's them in conjunction with each other. It's a combination of art style, character portrayals, relationships & interactions, in addition to a few other things. Really getting into it would take awhile. lol. But for one example, I think that the relationship between Touya and Sakura in CCS is more in-line with what would cause a moe reaction in viewers nowadays.

That's the heart of my comment earlier. While moe, as it relates to the feelings expressed by a viewer, hasn't changed (I mean happiness is always happiness, no?), what brings forth that feeling can differ depending on the era. What causes those feelings for any one individual is a product of the period of time they live in.

I mean, I've seen Creamy Mami and it's definitely something that I can see fueling folks that were teens and adults in the 80s but I don't think it would hit the same notes for that demographic in 2015. It's kind of like popular music.

You can't peg moe to any specific archetypes.
There's old men moe for crying out loud.

You should read the Galbraith article sixteen-bit posted. He refers to studies by some Japanese researchers on this subject. As I recall, one of the people he cited, Azuma, talked about how there's a "database" or a collection of designs and personality points that invoke moe. Azuma mostly focused on men though.. I wouldn't be surprised if crying old man was a part of the database for female viewers, lol.

 

[Wensih]

Originally yes, but in Japan "loli" is more specific to "lolicon" or "Lolita Complex". It's more Freudian than literary. And full-on pervy.

Both, lolicon and Lolita Complex, are still named after the novel which was Freudian in nature itself, if only to mock it.

 

[Extollere]

Also, this seems the place to bring up Lolita Anime, the porn OVA from 1984, and Pop Chaser, the porn OVA from 1985 which featured many animators who would go on to become big names in the industry (Hideaki Anno, Mahiro Maeda, Takeshi Honda, Toshiyuki Inoue, etc.).

Lolita Anime is terrible, don't watch it. I don't know if anyone notable worked on it or not, but it's garbage. Pop Chaser is a single episode of the series Cream Lemon, and is actually fun and entertaining outside of the sex scenes.

 

[dity]

ugh you reminded me of that Lucky Star craze on the internet, that was probably the 1st time I noticed and was made aware of "moe and loli" despite it obviously being around before then.

I own LS on blu-ray because I like food and it was basically Talk About Food: The Anime.

 

[Frumix]

Loli gets animated all the time. Disregarding legit full on hentai animations, there's:

Monogatari is lolita anime? Since when? There's a couple lolita characters, but as part of a larger "let's play with harem tropes" part.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Not sure though some people consider shows like Serial Experiment Lane to be proto moe.

But apart from design similarities it's a very different beast

NO NO IT CAN'T BE THAT'S MY FAVORITE---

Lain is moe

Bear Suits

thankfully the show was too relentlessly weird and that was as "cute" (actually a little unsettling) as it got.

 

[rpmurphy]

If talking about character design, the babyfaces and body types that a lot of characters have -- Miss Monochrome, Nyaruko, Love Lab, etc. -- are rather all likely a result of the designs that probably influenced the doll market (and way before Card Captor Sakura). While Barbie has the tall slender figure with a sharper face and narrower eyes, Licca-chan (who was actually designed by a shoujo mangaka) had a shorter figure that is more proportional to average girls, has bigger eyes and a softer and rounder face. About the same with Jenny.

That this has permeated into manga and anime targeted towards the male audience is definitely fascinating, but I'm honestly not surprised... kids who were bought those monthly grade-school Shogakukan volumes were typically exposed to a lot of young shoujo manga with female characters, and while boys may have "graduated" into male-oriented shonen manga and anime (and girls to the romance-heavy shoujos), I don't think the appeal to that design is easily lost.

 

[L Thammy]

Arguing over what "started" this is ridiculous because its like asking "what started mecha anime?" and having people starting to talk about fucking Gundam Seed. Its so entirely missing the context that the entire discussion is meaningless.

Isn't mecha anime very well documented? Astro Boy focused on a robot character. Tetsujin #28 focused on a giant robot. Mazinger Z introduced the piloted giant robot. All it takes is an informed person to set the discussion on track.

 

[Megalosaro]

I blame Puru.

 

[akira28]

loli and moe should never mix. ever.

 

[butzopower]

Didn't the "Gothic Lolita" style get quite big during the visual kei era of the late 90s / early 00s?

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

loli and moe should never mix. ever.

In theory by its very nature it shouldn't mix as they are oil and water since Moe is a warmhearted Innocence feeling while loli is a perverseness on innocence youth ;One destroys the other.

Gothic Lolita I consider relatively harmless and more fashion than anything else IE: just because a character is dressed in Gothic Lolita doesn't make her a loli as it's very much it's own thing nowadays and it's wearers are not trying to be lolis they just think the dresses are cute.