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[shinobi602]

It's not enough the Saudi Arabia's been murdering civilians left and right and using illegal cluster bombs against Yemen for over a year now. I guess a few more funerals will finally be the last straw.

The United States said Saturday it had launched an "immediate review" of the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen, blamed for an air strike that killed more than 140 people.

"We are deeply disturbed by reports of today's air strike on a funeral hall in Yemen, which, if confirmed, would continue the troubling series of attacks striking Yemeni civilians," White House National Security Council spokesman Ned Price said in a statement.

"US security cooperation with Saudi Arabia is not a blank check... In light of this and other recent incidents, we have initiated an immediate review of our already significantly reduced support to the Saudi-led Coalition and are prepared to adjust our support so as to better align with US principles, values and interests, including achieving an immediate and durable end to Yemen's tragic conflict."

https://www.afp.com/en/news/15/us-launches-immediate-review-saudi-led-coalition-yemen

 

[Square2015]

It's about time we got disturbed by something having to do with Saudi Arabia.

 

[Lamel]

140 in one strike?
What the fuck man.

 

[Tonedeff]

Fuck Trump, what's going on in Yemen, and our hand in it, is America's real greatest shame

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

"and other recent events"?


What does that mean? Saudis behavior is not recent. They've sold a whole slew of military tech and vehicles to the saudis as just a few months ago. Vehicles and weapons that might end up in the hands of ISIS.
Given the slew of terror that SA has spread for a long time, saying "and other recent events" almost implies that the mayham they've caused is water under the bridge. The devastation the Monarchy have caused and the power vacuum that has been created by US using them as a proxy buffer to be friends with the top dog in the middle east for selfish gain, has come at the horrible expends on all its neighbors as Saudi breeds endless and endless fanatical groups and doctrine.



It's understandable that any country put its own people first. And it's understandable that USA needed the oil from Saudi. The oil is one thing, but the defense contracts is just something that is difficult to understand or justify.
Is there a compelling moral argument that could be made for the US foreign policy here? Bipartisan policy as both Clinton and Bush administations had a cozy relationships with the Saudis. And that stretches back for many past administrations; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia–United_States_relations#Oil_embargo_and_the_energy_crises

I wonder if SA had not been backed by the US, and if Irans conservative had not been toppled in a CIA backed coup, what would have happened in the middle east? Would another Sunni state have grabbed everything, and would we have had a similar power vacuum like we have today?

 

[GameAddict411]

Reports are actually over 710 killed but not confirmed. It was massacre and what people have told me from there, high ranking officials were at the funeral. Saudi Arabia just didn't care about the collateral damage.

 

[brian577]

Reports are actually over 710 killed but not confirmed. It was massacre and what people have told me from there, high ranking officials were at the funeral. Saudi Arabia just didn't care about the collateral damage.

Early reports were at over 800 injured. It's now at over 500.

 

[GSG Flash]

What are the chances that this will be brushed under the rug and forgotten about in a couple of weeks?

The Saudis are as bad as anyone in any conflict in the middle east right now, they've killed thousands of civilians in one of the poorest countries in the world thanks to their geopolitical interests.

 

[Sijil]

It was a triple tap airstrike too.

https://twitter.com/BBassem7/status/784809621433090049

There won't be any repercussions anyway, no one dares to upset the pampered princesses of the KSA.

This is the same country that is heading the UN humanitarian council, beheads dissidents and dares to advocate for democracy in Syria. It's one bad joke that's been running since the house of Saud usurped the throne.

 

[kame-sennin]

Professional jealousy.

 

[timetokill]

Obama wagged his finger at Israel, and now he's gonna wag it at the Saudis.

 

[Kyzer]

I hope this goes somewhere

 

[norm9]

Obama wagged his finger at Israel, and now he's gonna wag it at the Saudis.

So much wagging tomorrow during the morning news.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Maybe if the world wasn't so dependent on importation of oil from wonderful regimes like Saudi Arabia we wouldn't have these problems.

Maybe if the world stopped exploding the dinosaurs to power our societies we also wouldn't be causing global warming.

Two birds could be killed by one stone here.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

lmao...'Review' their relationship with arguably the most deplorable regime on Earth.

 

[pa22word]

lmao...'Review' their relationship with arguably the most deplorable regime on Earth.

they're not even our most deplorable ally in the greater middle east

that unsavory title belongs to pakistan

 

[norinrad]

It's tragic, and my blood is boiling as the world just sits by while a country is bombed back to the Stone age. Our leaders always seem to look the other way when Saudi Arabia is involved.

 

[E-Cat]

Too little, too late.

It's like the people waking up to Trump being an asshole all of a sudden.

No, that's too generous--these fuckers knew exactly what the Saudis were doing, yet kept contributing to their massacres.

 

[GSG Flash]

they're not even our most deplorable ally in the greater middle east

that unsavory title belongs to pakistan

Pakistan isn't in the middle east at all(greater middle east is a a made up region that has no official meaning).

Pakistan has major issues(which the Saudis have a massive hand in creating) but the Pakistani government and Pakistani laws are definitely not as deplorable as Saudi Arabia's. Women, for one, have much more freedom in Pakistan compared to Saudi Arabia.

 

[KingBroly]

What are the chances that this will be brushed under the rug and forgotten about in a couple of weeks?

The Saudis are as bad as anyone in any conflict in the middle east right now, they've killed thousands of civilians in one of the poorest countries in the world thanks to their geopolitical interests.

No one will be talking about this tomorrow.

 

[Giant Panda]

As far as diplomatic rebukes to allies go, this is actually a fairly strong one. It should be even stronger though.

 

[emag]

What are civilian lives weighed against a potential loss of influence? Gotta keep those proxy wars going with a US-backed Saudi-led "coalition".

 

[grumble]

This is horrific. It's also a joke - the us has just approved the sale of a large amount of military hardware to the Saudis. Anything for those dollars.

 

[Suen]

With blessings from British (and if not then American) bombs and UK military personnel.

Can't wait for the "civilized enlightened free world" to be outraged about this and condemn the sectarian Saudi regime while news outlets show a picture of a (dead in this case) Yemeni kid pulled out from the rubbles sitting on a chair in their headlines with news anchors crying followed up discussions of providing a NFZ in Yemen and to arm rebels with manpads. Surely the moderate Al-Qaeda laced rebels apologists here who strangely(...) haven't popped up in this thread will support it.

 

[TarNaru33]

It's understandable that any country put its own people first. And it's understandable that USA needed the oil from Saudi. The oil is one thing, but the defense contracts is just something that is difficult to understand or justify.
Is there a compelling moral argument that could be made for the US foreign policy here? Bipartisan policy as both Clinton and Bush administations had a cozy relationships with the Saudis. And that stretches back for many past administrations; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia–United_States_relations#Oil_embargo_and_the_energy_crises

I wonder if SA had not been backed by the US, and if Irans conservative had not been toppled in a CIA backed coup, what would have happened in the middle east? Would another Sunni state have grabbed everything, and would we have had a similar power vacuum like we have today?

The answer for a moral reason is no, but their is an economic one for the world and for the U.S.

U.S can not stop backing Saudi Arabia if it wants to keep the dollar as a strong world currency. Not to mention Saudi's 11 million barrels a day production (and having a huge influence on all the other oil producing Gulf states), makes it economical suicide for the entire world to do anything about it. U.S distancing themselves from the Saudis would only lead to a backlash. A nation such as the Saudis can just find another global power to align itself with if U.S pulls out. Kind of like what Turkey is doing, getting closer to Russia while threatening EU with the refugee crisis.

It is damned if do damned if don't, but one of those choices, actually have dramatic impacts on U.S interests (and it's people) in terms of foreign and economic influence and it's own economy.

I literally do not know what people expect U.S to do with this scenario except maybe stopping sales of military equipment, which again, the Saudis can find someone else to buy from. Even sanctions I do not see as a viable action against them.

EDIT: You want this relationship to end? Well start voting all the time for renewable energy and hope they run out of oil relatively soon lol.

 

[commedieu]

I guess they mean review our receipts?

 

[Fox Mulder]

We won't do shit.

I want America to be more energy independent so we can just walk away from the entire region. Just a giant mess we've largely caused.

 

[pa22word]

Pakistan isn't in the middle east at all(greater middle east is a a made up region that has no official meaning).

1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East

2. all geographical terms are made up and have no real meaning

Pakistan has major issues(which the Saudis have a massive hand in creating) but the Pakistani government and Pakistani laws are definitely not as deplorable as Saudi Arabia's. Women, for one, have much more freedom in Pakistan compared to Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan is the world's worst state sponsor of terrorism, and they've destroyed their own nation because of it. Their law books might arbitrarily look better on paper, but that hardly means anything as long as the ISI can kill people at will and twist the national media to whatever it wants.

Blaming the saudi's for Pakistan's woes is fucking idiotic too, because any decent reading of its history all points in one direction: they willing chose to push extremism at their own detriment in order to shit in India's face and destabilize Kashmir. Pakistan is probably a decade away from being a failed state, and that should scare more people than it does due to their nuclear means.

I mean, unless you have explicit details of events in the recent past of the Saudi government officially funding terrorist attacks on their own neighbors that resulted in hundreds of deaths, I fail to see how SA is worse by any metric.

 

[Fiend]

And Germany still sells those assholes weapons, I really can't comprehend this bullshit.

 

[Noirulus]

they're not even our most deplorable ally in the greater middle east

that unsavory title belongs to pakistan

Pakistan isn't even close to as bad as Saudia Arabia when it comes to a humans rights point of view, and it's not even in the middle east. Tf are you talking about lol.

1.

Pakistan is the world's worst state sponsor of terrorism, and they've destroyed their own nation because of it. Their law books might arbitrarily look better on paper, but that hardly means anything as long as the ISI can kill people at will and twist the national media to whatever it wants.

Blaming the saudi's for Pakistan's woes is fucking idiotic too, because any decent reading of its history all points in one direction: they willing chose to push extremism at their own detriment in order to shit in India's face and destabilize Kashmir. Pakistan is probably a decade away from being a failed state, and that should scare more people than it does due to their nuclear means.

I mean, unless you have explicit details of events in the recent past of the Saudi government officially funding terrorist attacks on their own neighbors that resulted in hundreds of deaths, I fail to see how SA is worse by any metric.

Yeah, I hate the Pakistan government for funding state terrorism (I'm Indian so it hits close) but this has nothing to do with actually living there or where the citizens' morals lay. Saudi Arabia is actually disgusting when it comes to how they treat people.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Wish they would review Israel support as well. Our taxes are paying for terrorism.

 

[pa22word]

And Germany still sells those assholes weapons, I really can't comprehend this bullshit.

germany needs the oil

Despite grandstanding in the papers, eu nations are just as self interested as the US is at the end of the day. It's going to be an interesting world when the US becomes a net exporter of oil and the nations like Germany don't get a free ride off of the US' foreign policy anymore. I wonder if all those "higher ideals" still mean anything? I doubt it, honestly.

 

[old]

Why the fuck are we involved in this? Fuck you Obama.

 

[Kthulhu]

Obama wagged his finger at Israel, and now he's gonna wag it at the Saudis.

Yup. He has been terrible in this regard. Hillery will not be any better.

 

[Oersted]

Maybe if the world wasn't so dependent on importation of oil from wonderful regimes like Saudi Arabia we wouldn't have these problems.

Maybe if the world stopped exploding the dinosaurs to power our societies we also wouldn't be causing global warming.

Two birds could be killed by one stone here.

Its not so much oil these days. Saudi Arabia simply pays good money. Bombed people in Yemen don't.

 

[blu]

Why the fuck are we involved in this? Fuck you Obama.

Geopolitics.

 

[pa22word]

Pakistan isn't even close to as bad as Saudia Arabia when it comes to a humans rights point of view, and it's not even in the middle east. Tf are you talking about lol.

1. nukes. As long as Pakistan remains as unstable as they are and still posses nuclear bombs, I really can't put anything else into consideration as far as SA being worse. If militants seize the government and toss a bomb into Delhi and Israel the total loss of life will be greater in multiple magnitudes than everything the nation of SA has done in its entire existence.

2. look up as to my reasoning. Yes, traditionally Pakistan would fall under the term "central asia". This isn't 1850 anymore, and thus I'm using different terms that better fit today's world.

 

[GSG Flash]

1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East

2. all geographical terms are made up and have no real meaning

Oh yes, it's on Wikipedia so it must be official *rolls eyes*

Pakistan is not in the Middle East. Period.

You won't get anywhere using the term "Greater Middle East" in any official language since it's a bullshit term created by Americans to group all the Muslim countries together that share land borders from West Africa to South Asia.

Pakistan is the world's worst state sponsor of terrorism, and they've destroyed their own nation because of it. Their law books might arbitrarily look better on paper, but that hardly means anything as long as the ISI can kill people at will and twist the national media to whatever it wants.

I mean it's pretty clear that you're ignorant about Pakistan, so I don't even know why I am bothering to respond. Their laws don't just look better on paper, they are better than Saudi's laws. I don't know how you would be able to say with a straight face that Pakistanis, in general and both men and women, don't enjoy greater freedoms than their Saudi counterparts.

ISI is a problematic entity, that I won't argue, but they are mainly a problem for India(and let's not pretend that India is innocent in all of this) and the Pakistani people themselves. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, funds and arms deplorable groups around the entire world to help spread their shitty intolerant medieval version of Islam.

Blaming the saudi's for Pakistan's woes is fucking idiotic too, because any decent reading of its history all points in one direction: they willing chose to push extremism at their own detriment in order to shit in India's face and destabilize Kashmir. Pakistan is probably a decade away from being a failed state, and that should scare more people than it does due to their nuclear means.

The only thing idiotic is pretending that Saudi Arabia did/does not have a hand in the destabilization of Pakistan, mainly starting from their influence on Zia Ul Haq in the 80s. It's about as open a secret as Israel's nukes. Hell, I'd argue it's not even a secret anymore:

http://www.voanews.com/a/pakistan-minister-says-saudis-destabilizing-muslim-world/2606474.html
http://www.dawn.com/news/1165018
http://www.dawn.com/news/1158244
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

Pakistan has it's share of problems(starting with the Saudi wahabbi influence in the country), but in terms of being a shitty deplorable state that spreads negative influence around the world, it doesn't hold a candle to Saudi Arabia.

 

[Nesotenso]

look up as to my reasoning. Yes, traditionally Pakistan would fall under the term "central asia". This isn't 1850 anymore, and thus I'm using different terms that better fit today's world.

that would be South Asia. And we shouldn't be encouraging Bush administration stupidity with this "Greater Middle East" designation. Just because countries have a muslim majority population doesn't make them similar.

 

[pa22word]

Oh yes, it's on Wikipedia so it must be official *rolls eyes*

Pakistan is not in the Middle East. Period.

You won't get anywhere using the term "Greater Middle East" in any official language since it's a bullshit term created by Americans to group all the Muslim countries together that share land borders from West Africa to South Asia.

Using cultural spheres of influence to describe geographic regions of the world that share cultural similarities is as old as the dawn of time. Get over it man. I seriously have no idea why you can just spout how evil SA is and in the same breath ignore the reason why they have the ability to project the lengths they do.

ISI is a problematic entity, that I won't argue, but they are mainly a problem for India(and let's not pretend that India is innocent in all of this) and the Pakistani people themselves. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, funds and arms deplorable groups around the entire world to help spread their shitty intolerant medieval version of Islam.

ISI is a world problem. The instability they cause at seemingly no logical end other than perpetual war can only end in one way: nukes flying.

The only thing idiotic is pretending that Saudi Arabia did/does not have a hand in the destabilization of Pakistan, mainly starting from their influence on Zia Ul Haq in the 80s. It's about as open a secret as Israel's nukes. Hell, I'd argue it's not even a secret anymore:

http://www.voanews.com/a/pakistan-minister-says-saudis-destabilizing-muslim-world/2606474.html
http://www.dawn.com/news/1165018
http://www.dawn.com/news/1158244
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

Pakistan has it's share of problems(starting with the Saudi wahabbi influence in the country), but in terms of being a shitty deplorable state that spreads negative influence around the world, it doesn't hold a candle to Saudi Arabia.

I never said nor implied that SA did not have a hand in it. I said it was stupid to pin it all on SA, as if the people running Pakistan were not more than willing to stoke the national fires to their own ends. Pakistan's problems are of it's own making. Their government chose this path at the detriment of its people. In their own hubris they really thought they could direct and control the extremism into india with no foresight as to the blow back it would cause domestically.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

they're not even our most deplorable ally in the greater middle east

that unsavory title belongs to pakistan

No.

A major reason of Pakistan's problems is due to the Saudis themselves. KSA is a cancer that spreads it's vile wahhabi and salafi ideology around the world. They have put in tens of millions into Pakistan to promote and teach their fucked up values, incubating a extremist ideology among millions of people.

And it's already been stated, but the only thing that connects Pakistan to the middle East is religion. Culturally and geographically they are part of South Asia. Similar language, similar food, similar cultural traditions. Might as well call India and Indonesia a part of the ME too if you wanna go by a religious criteria.

 

[Hexa]

Why the fuck are we involved in this? Fuck you Obama.

Those who call for the U.S. to suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia because they blame only the Saudis, and not Iran and Hezbollah, for the civilian casualties are playing a dangerous economic and strategic game. Saudi Arabia is by far the largest purchaser of American-made weapons. In the last eight years alone, the U.S. has sold around $115 billion in arms to the Saudis, creating or maintaining around 160,000 jobs in America. Those with hopes that the campaign will be suspended before its strategic objectives have been achieved are harboring a misinformed fantasy that refuses to see reality.

As Iran seeks to spread its destructive influence in the Middle East via proxy wars that are upending social order and causing massive bloodshed in several Arab states, only one country stands in their way: Saudi Arabia. That is especially true now that President Obama’s ridiculous Middle East policy has given up the fight and largely taken a conciliatory or neglectful approach to the criminal actions of Iran. The Saudis and their Arab allies believe that saving a nation from terrorist marauders is a just cause, and they cannot afford to allow Iran and its terrorist minions in Hezbollah to gain a base via the Houthis on the Arabian Peninsula directly bordering the Kingdom. Doing so would merely foment a larger host of problems and ultimately lead to a direct war between Saudi Arabia and Iran that would have disastrous consequences to global order.

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2016/10/us-should-stand-saudi-arabia-yemen/132166/?oref=d-river

tl;dr: Money and Geopolitics

 

[pa22word]

No.

A major reason of Pakistan's problems is due to the Saudis themselves. KSA is a cancer that spreads it's vile wahhabi and salafi ideology around the world. They have put in tens of millions into Pakistan to promote and teach their fucked up values, incubating a extremist ideology among millions of people.

...that pakistan took in with open arms to fight proxy wars they couldn't sustain against both the USSR and India

 

[Buba Big Guns]

...that pakistan took in with open arms to fight proxy wars they couldn't sustain against both the USSR and India

You missed the point completely. The same ideology that ISIS follows, the 9/11 terrorist followed, and the hundreds of destabilizing extremist groups around the world follow, is essentially directly linked to the the exportation of Saudi ideology around the world. Pakistan, with all its problems, isn't anywhere near that.

Read up on Saudi's Prince Bandar just to get an idea.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Bloomberg; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...apons-imports-lead-surge-in-global-arms-sales


The astounding rise-year-over-year is insane.

 

[Man God]

The real hilarious part of the US standing up the Saudis is that we don't really do it for our direct benefit, we do it to keep oil prices down in western Europe.

 

[pa22word]

You missed the point completely. The same ideology that ISIS follows, the 9/11 terrorist followed, and the hundreds of destabilizing extremist groups around the world follow, is essentially directly linked to the the exportation of Saudi ideology around the world. Pakistan, with all its problems, isn't anywhere near that.

Read up on Saudi's Prince Bandar just to get an idea.

...well, if I'm being honest I mostly just wanted to vent a little about Pakistan being the boneheaded clusterfuck it is

To the people complaining about me using GME terminology, I mostly just use to to denote a term for the muslim world that is more religiously neutral. If you have a problem with that because it doesn't fit into the geography books you read in highschool I really don't care. The term is common enough now among both historians and scholarly literature on the subject that I really don't have to explain myself every time I use it just because some people like to be "that guy" who nitpicks dumb things.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

...well, if I'm being honest I mostly just wanted to vent a little about Pakistan being the boneheaded clusterfuck it is

To the people complaining about me using GME terminology, I mostly just use to to denote a term for the muslim world that is more religiously neutral. If you have a problem with that because it doesn't fit into the geography books you read in highschool I really don't care. The term is common enough now among both historians and scholarly literature on the subject that I really don't have to explain myself every time I use it just because some people like to be "that guy" who nitpicks dumb things.

Using the 'greater middle east' to describe Pakistan implies that it is lumped in with the rest of the middle east and has the same geopolitical problems/goals as the region from Iran to Egypt, which is not the case at all.

Anyways, Im guessing the situation in Yemen hasnt changed at all?

 

[hobblygobbly]

Not sure if this needs its own thread but an update to the situation.

BBC: Yemen conflict: US 'could be implicated in war crimes'
Reuters: Exclusive: As Saudis bombed Yemen, U.S. worried about legal blowback (more detailed article)

It essentially boils down to co-belligerence (and there is no conclusion yet if the U.S is a co-belligerent) under international law, government lawyers to the U.S advised regarding precedent of a ruling (as per reuters):

For instance, one of the emails made a specific reference to a 2013 ruling from the war crimes trial of former Liberian president Charles Taylor that significantly widened the international legal definition of aiding and abetting such crimes.

The ruling found that "practical assistance, encouragement or moral support" is sufficient to determine liability for war crimes. Prosecutors do not have to prove a defendant participated in a specific crime, the U.N.-backed court found.

 

[Hermii]

Fuck Trump, what's going on in Yemen, and our hand in it, is America's real greatest shame

Its bad, but its not as bad as grabbing someone by the pussy.