JoshuaJSlone
Member
Hell, even if they halved THAT and did 480x1080 or 960x540, it'd be a decent step over 480p.beermonkey@tehbias said:
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Why are many PS3 games STILL not supporting 1080i/p?
- Thread starter TelemachusD
- Start date
Philthy said:
Maybe Sony care more about allowing developers not to compromised their games in order to get the money of the people who have out of date hardware.
Sony support 1080i, it is developers who do not implement the feature. They are the people not supporting your desired resolution.
Philthy
Member
stuburns said:
Which is entirely ass backwards from the other 99.9% of the industry. They need a hardware refresh to address this at the least. It's just that the PS3 has been out so long now, that it doesn't make sense that newer models just don't have a scaler in them yet. Frustrating.
Don't you think the longer they go on the less likely it is to come? As people have mentioned 1080i was preferable to 720p when the PS3 came out, but Sony still focused their developers on 720p. Now 1080i is less popular, and becoming less popular over time, it seems more likely this will never happen.Philthy said:
In saying that, it really is up to the developers, for example GTA4 will feature a 1080i/p scaler, Burnout Paradise has just added it through a patch. It could be that developers themselves have changed their mind about including a scaler. But for the most part developers are always going to squeeze the most the can out of the PS3 based on 720p output.
I defend Sony on this issue because I don't see any logic to some people's sense of entitlement. However I do personally think Sony should have included this feature from day one. I just don't think people should blame Sony because they brought a product on the blind assumption that something would be added that was never promised.
stuburns said:
I believe that Sony is the one who should set the standards for their developers.
They need to come up with a checklist if you want the game published on their system, exactly the way that Microsoft does it.
It was a clusterfuck last gen trying to figure out which PS2 games supported 480p, and other surround sound features.
Its a clusterfuck this gen because you can't trust the back of the box on these games and there are some poor schmucks out there with 1080i-only TVs who didn't find out the bad news UNTIL they got home and plugged it into the TV. (Like me on launch day).
I don't understand why its so hard for Sony to set a base line minimum of features that you must support if you want it licensed on their console. Microsoft has been doing this for 2 generations now.
I went ahead and bit the bullet and purchased a newer HDTV last year, but I wasn't happy about it, and I sure as hell made sure not to purchase a Sony HDTV because part of me has felt all along that this crap was done by Sony to try and get you to upgrade to one of their 1080p TVs.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
They all heave such requirements. They just don't always include as much as we could hope.bill0527 said:
Zombie James
Banned
stuburns said:
.
Scottlarock
Banned
I bought a CRT TV that was made in dec '05 it could do 480 or 1080i that was in 06. I no longer have a PS3 and that was one of the reasons why.... I now have a 720p TV so maybe I'll own a PS3 again soon....stuburns said:
Scottlarock
Banned
try 2006, a 30"crt from target.King_Slender said:
WickedLaharl
Member
_leech_ said:
again, sony should require them to support these resolutions. do you think a pub/dev will refuse to release a game on the ps3 if it's mandatory for them to support these resolutions? :lol
WickedLaharl said:
Yes, that is a possibility, Sony are not in a strong position to make demands.
Developers already have to spend more money and time optimizing PS3 games then 360 ones, and generally they still come out worse and sell less. If you think multi-platform development is bad for PS3 now, if they made them support scaling it would get even worse.
And they certainly aren't going to demand 3rd party exclusives featuring it, because if developers like Koji-Pro and Square Enix lead on 360 it's over for the Playstation brand.
rollingstart
Banned
arent there some games that run in 720p than in 1080p? or is that just a myth?
What games run exactly the same in 1080p as in 720p. Now that I have a 1080p set I might aswell play at that level.
What games run exactly the same in 1080p as in 720p. Now that I have a 1080p set I might aswell play at that level.
Scottlarock
Banned
really how much 3rd party would they lose? how many developers say "nope, sony wants 1080i, thats too much, cancel the project."stuburns said:
Linkzg said:
I assuming you mean 'run better',
The resolution of your TV makes no difference, if the game runs at 1080p it will always run at that, even if it's displaying in 720p or 1080i. The native resolution of a game does not change because of a TV or anything. The only performance difference is when upscaling. If you upscale a PS2 game to 1080 and put smoothing on you'll notice some performance issues on certain games.
Scottlarock said:
They've lost Valve just because of the shitty architecture, and they're one of the most important developers in the world. I have no idea how many developers they would lose, but they would lose some. 3rd party multi-platform developers often comment about the little benefit they get from PS3 development. Higher production costs, more time, less sales. It's a bad mix. And Microsoft will be considerably kinder to people producing exclusives.
So yeah, I'd say it would be an issue for some developers. Not all of course, but some.
rollingstart
Banned
stuburns said:
yeah, run better is what I mean, I dont get why I forgot to type better.
but I dont remember what game it was, but I recall people claiming that a game in 720p had a better framerate than 1080p.
Scottlarock
Banned
they lost valve for not supporting 1080i? or shitty archecture. this thread is about 1080i no?stuburns said:
They lost them because of the shitty architecture. My point was that alone was enough for them to drop it.Scottlarock said:
The point is if you're making a game for PS3 and 360, it's easier, cheaper and quicker to make the 360 a certain standard then the PS3 version. That is why the majority of multi-platform games are better on 360. Now take the fact that upscaling is sapping additional elements of the console, so it's even harder, even more expensive and it would take even longer to try and make the game equal.
But it's not just that, Microsoft offer very good tech support to developers, and even better to those producing exclusives. There are major incentives to go 360 exclusive as it is, and it'll just look even sweeter if Sony decide to make it even harder for developers.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Games have go through a checklist already. I highly doubt adding a check with something like "Include 1080i support by at least have an optional framebuffer of XXXX*1080 resolution so that the horizontal scaler scales properly...." is going to make a big deal out of things.
Especially since the newer SDK have more support and freed memory resources in the first place to make things easier for devs.
Especially since the newer SDK have more support and freed memory resources in the first place to make things easier for devs.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
stuburns said:
Dude, your just bring another whole can of worms with the shitty architecture talk thats really not damn needed. I would rather leave it that Valve doesn't like working with multi-processor designs, especially asynchronous ones and they stated as much and Gabe acknowledged Naughty Dog would probably be the best at such coding.
Valve isn't much discussion on scaling anyway, sounds too forced.
Whatever, the point was it's already harder to produce games on PS3 then on 360, and making 1080i support a requirement would make it even harder.HomerSimpson-Man said:
Sony want to make developers like the PS3, they want them to carry on making games, they don't want to piss them off because some people have got TV's that only support a dying format.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
stuburns said:
Seriously, making devs mad because of multiple resolution support? Where are you getting this? Considering a lot these devs have worked with multiple resolutions with PC, why would this be even a big issue of including a difference framebuffer size to scale properly, especially considering the docs, tools, and even hardware for multiple resolution are already there to begin with.
Scottlarock
Banned
sorry wii owners, if 1080i is dead, I can't imagine why wii is doing so well........stuburns said:
The point's not that it's going to make them 'mad', it's that it's just another compromise they have to make, scaling isn't as simple as flipping a switch, as Spasm said earlier in the thread, it's additional compromise, and it's already harder, it would make it harder still.HomerSimpson-Man said:
I said dying not dead, and Wii games aren't HD native resolutions, upscaling on Wii is just pointless. This thread is about upscaling from 720p to 1080i, this makes sense because the 1080i owners will be getting HD which they otherwise can't get. But with the Wii I don't see any benefit to it.Scottlarock said:
Scottlarock
Banned
wii is dying. you really need to quit now. so F people that spent money on HD tvs but its cool for Wii owners because they don't care,,,, sorry if I bought a HD tv early because I expect HD tv games. really? I'm lost here.
HomerSimpson-Man said:
And we're back to square one. A lot of this is "in" DirectX for PC gaming and it made it easier for devs to make multi resolution games with minimal changes. Why didn't Sony do this too?
Here's a different kind of question, though - do these developers support widescreen and 4:3 screens in all their games or do they letterbox them? Seems to me it'd be more difficult to reposition assets for a 4:3 to a 16:9 game. It's probably a strawman argument, but I feel it goes hand in hand with the "lazy developers" defense. If Sony mandated 4:3 support as well as widescreen, could they not have mandated multiple resolutions?
Saying people have the wrong TVs for gaming when the console also supports 4:3 over 480i appears hypocritical.
Marty Chinn
Member
Philthy said:
Both which are false. It was already deduced that the hardware scaler chip in the 360 doesn't exist and the PS3 does have a hardware scaler inside the system. Let's not confuse what each system has or doesn't have with what they're allowed to do with it. There is a hardware based scaler in the PS3 but developers are only allowed to scale in one direction unfortunately.
As for the 1080i situation. I think it sucks that people get screwed out of this and I wish there was a TRC that would aid this situation, however I think on the flip side that it does get blown out of proportion of how many people this affects.
I think as early adoptors, you take the risk of getting screwed. Any technology you buy as an early adoptor you take this risk. People who bought 1080i only TVs back when there was no option get screwed as an early adoptor. People who bought 1080i only tvs really recently simply didn't do their homework of what their tv could or could not do. I also think a part of this is due to the fucked up nature of HDTV resolution standards, but you were either an early adoptor who got screwed which you should either have expected or now learn your lesson from buying technology early to someone who just didn't research their purchase of what the pros and cons were.
Think of the people who own TVs and other hardware that get screwed out of 1080p. I'm into home theater stuff quite a bit and researched both of my HDTVs long before I made purchases. I knew buying my 30" CRT that I wanted something that supported 720p so I got my Sony knowing that it would. I also knew what my 50" LCD Projection was capable of. I knew neither would support 1080p. I also bought into HD DVD and Blu-Ray knowing what the situation could be with those. Heck, I was surprised that some HD DVD players didn't output in 1080p when I thought that was the standard for video. Face it, early adoption leaves you out sometimes and that's something you should learn by now.
These people however are in the far minority of potential customers out there. Let's face it, out of a majority of the 1080i tv owners, you fall under one of many possibilities. You could be a hardcore technology or video person who likely has since updated. You could be someone who just doesn't care about games. Simply put the number out of those 1080i owners that this affects really is a small percentage of people. I'm not saying it doesn't affect anyone but it certainly does not affect millions. Most people who are PS3 owners are more likely to have newer tvs or just bought their TVs for the first time. I'd be surprised if there are more than 5% of owners affected by this and I'm willing to bet it's no more than 1%.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
There's a difference. Sony is selling the PS3 as the ultimate HD machine and failing to live up to it. Nintendo is selling an SD machine and surpassing it.Scottlarock said:
muzzakus said:
You are wrong, the piece of hardware you are talking about isn't a scaler
Philthy said:
The ANA chip is not a scaler!!!!!
The ANA chip is NOT a scaler!!
Eurogamer said:
Do you see that?
let me show you again
Eurogamer said:
Link to Eurogamer that confirms ANA is not a scaler
Version 3.0
Member
stuburns said:
Um, I have a Sony WEGA that only supports 1080i. How is this not their fault?
TelemachusD
Member
There's no way it's 1%. A poll on the AVSforum from around the PS3 launch came up with 40% affected by it. I know internet polls are pretty useless, but that's a far higher number than 1 or 5%. Perhaps we should run a poll here on GAF and see at least how many of us are in this situation.Marty Chinn said:
Forsete said:Get another tv for your PS3. Its worth it.
it sounds like he has a 1080p tv, you can't really get a better tv yet mate
unless you mean he should have a 720p tv just for the PS3?
because thats just silly
Sony need to pull their finger out, and make all first party games 1080i compatible, and put 1080i into the TRC for every third party game from now
Marty Chinn
Member
TelemachusD said:
Uh avsforum by the nature of what the audience there falls into the extreme early adoptors. Heck have you read the game discussion there? They are clearly home theater enthusiasts first and gamers second. They're the ones who are likely to be affected the most. I would hardly use them for any type of indication of what the percentage is. Remember not all the people who bought 1080i only sets bought PS3s. You have to realistically figure out what part of that market crossed over with the game market. I'm under the firm belief that hard core home theater people are usually not gamers too. It was also clear that when the PS3 was coming that a ton of people even here on GAF were buying their HDTV for the first time. Same with the 360. By the time both of these systems out, it was pretty rare to buy a 1080i only set. I stand firmly that that number of people affected are in an extreme minority.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
ThirdEye said:
It depends on how well your TV does the scaling...
Marty Chinn
Member
dogmaan said:
Just as silly as trying to support a small minority at the expense of the majority. The problem gets smaller and smaller as time goes on too as more people adopt, more people get newer TVs and the percentage of the total users decreases who have the problem.
I have always wondered why they couldn't do it on the SPU that's reserved for the OS but then again, would you want them to support 1080 scaling at the expense of say in game XMB?
BoilersFan23
Member
The problem is, using the scaler chip in the PS3 uses up memory, and some PS3 games are already pushing the limits on memory, which explains why not all games use it. The reason Burnout Paradise is finally getting an update to support it is because of the extra memory footprint Sony is giving devs.WickedLaharl said:
Version 3.0
Member
Marty Chinn said:
Well, considering every single HD device on the planet except the PS3 can be counted on to work (in HD) with every single HDTV on the planet, I'd say yes, they should support scaling. It can't be that hard to do; everyone else does it. Including the competing HD console, which is supposedly less powerful.
Marty Chinn
Member
Leondexter said:
I already said I think they should do something about it. I just think realistically the number of people it affects is in the extreme minority and that it's not realistic to think they would make a lot of effort for a small minority especially at the expense of the majority. That's not realistic.
JoshuaJSlone said:
Well it lives up to the ultimate HD machine, it has more 1080p native games than the other two consoles. It just isn't the mediocre HD machine
.Nintendo is surpassing it in sales, but let's not start talking about hardware here, because the Wii doesn't surpass a toaster in terms of that
(yes this is a joke guys!!)