Support NeoGAF

[Professor Beef]

I'm talking about the films.



Yeah! The villains in the Nolan films were great and well written and they were still all one offs. No Marvel villain has really approached the level of The Joker or Bane in menace, performance, and how well written they were.

Bane was fucking terrible in the Nolanverse though.

 

[- J - D -]

So just like Ultron in the comics

Yeah, which is great on paper.

I mean, could've been better if it were sexy Ultron.

 

[Manmademan]

Arnim Zola tho

 

[The Silver]

Hit and miss, you mean all misses except for Loki

 

[Slayven]

Yeah, which is great on paper.

I mean, could've been better if it were sexy Ultron.

We don't talk about that

 

[kswiston]

So just like Ultron in the comics

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Because the villains are only there to give a reason for the action scenes.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The Ultron they gave us was an impetuous teenager.

Pretty comic accurate

 

[DecoReturns]

Bane was fucking terrible in the Nolanverse though.

Point is, he is still more memeorable then most Marvel villians. Also most people I know and some who don't like this movie say he's parts they like.

Kinda like Batfleck and BvS

 

[fallengorn]

To make a superior product? A movie with a great hero and a meh villain can still be good... But having a great villain makes it even better.

Sure. I edited another point to my post. Loki as a character is clearly a lucky role. His "origin" is clearly tied to Thor so not a lot additional work has to go into building him up. But all these other villains, need additional exposition scenes, and usually they're by themselves somewhere else. Being economical about your film, they're the first thing that's going to scarified to keep things afloat.

If these films are going to continue for the next decade or two, they will need to stop wasting all of their villains.

I agree.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

.

 

[Slayven]

Ultron has broken time and space, killed an entire country, turned himself into a woman, built two women, built a brother and a son. Just because Hank Pym didn't hug him.


That says a lot especially since Ultron is based on his brainwaves

 

[N.Domixis]

If these films are going to continue for the next decade or two, they will need to stop wasting all of their villains.

This is true, but they can always be revived somehow if they are needed.

 

[- J - D -]

So what y'all are really saying is that Ultron was always terrible.

Except the time he looked like this:

 

[george_us]

Yeah, which is great on paper.

I mean, could've been better if it were sexy Ultron.

Speaking of: Why did they make Ultron a half-silver naked chick again?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Bane was fucking terrible in the Nolanverse though.

Bane has more memorable moments than pretty much every MCU villain combined.

Spoiler

Nolan Bane >>>>> comics Bane. His original arc may be an exception, but all his other appearances are trash.

 

[Dahbomb]

They got Magneto though not in the MCU.

Deacon Frost in Blade was menacing as hell, he was a villain you loved to hate.

Loki is the best villain in the MCU, every other villain has been underwhelming.

 

[Strangelove77]

Movies in general and most fiction don't have good villains.
For every Hans Landa, Joker and Boddicker, you have about 100 Malekiths, Cains and Marion Cotillards.

Honestly, Batman has the best villains and I consider just having that property to work with a huge advantage over everyone else. Only other hero close is Spider-Man.
The only thing to do with Batman and his villains is to not fuck them up. The material, ingredients and formulas are there, just don't fuck it up. Thats it.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of villains are used as tools to further the origin story. Marvel has a shit ton more origin stories in their catalogue than everyone else.
Even Batman Begins is guilty of it. And I love Batman Begins.

 

[The Silver]

Hit and miss? Marvel Studios movies are all misses except for Loki, who wasn't as much a well done villain so much as they chose a charismatic actor and gave them more screen time than the others (aka multiple movies). They don't care about digging into villains beyond the 2-3 scenes establishing a flimsy motive. That's the formula, it works, audiences accept it and they'll stick with it. I'm not for it, but I understand how it's easier to write a good movie when you can just keep focus on the lead(s). Poor Daniel Bruhl.

I've always wondered why people have clamored for Marvel to get Doom back. Do you really want him put through the formula?

Ideally they'd realize how big a deal Doom is, you can't kill off Doom in one movie like the other villains. To the MCU he'd be Loki on steroids, lots of screen time and a major recurring character.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Hit and miss? Marvel Studios movies are all misses except for Loki, who wasn't as much a well done villain so much as they chose a charismatic actor and gave them more screen time than the others (aka multiple movies). They don't care about digging into villains beyond the 2-3 scenes establishing a flimsy motive. That's the formula, it works, audiences accept it and they'll stick with it. I'm not for it, but I understand how it's easier to write a good movie when you can just keep focus on the lead(s). Poor Daniel Bruhl.

I've always wondered why people have clamored for Marvel to get Doom back. Do you really want him put through the formula?

Better than the alternative we've had.

And besides, Doom has been deep in Marvel lore since the early days. I think he would be used far more, ESPECIALLY since he could be easily recast.

 

[Green Mamba]

I've always wondered why people have clamored for Marvel to get Doom back. Do you really want him put through the formula?

Yeah, I mean, they took Ronan the Accuser and made him into a one and done nobody with the same level of development as Darren Cross. Strucker couldn't even get a single film to himself before being offed.

 

[Slayven]

Speaking of: Why did they make Ultron a half-silver naked chick again?

He decided to embrace his feminine side and remade himself into the shape of his mother The Wasp. Not even joking

 

[User 479360]

They flood the market. Some are good, others are crud. Lots are mediocre.

Too much filmmaking.

EDIT: I read this as movies. This stands for both.

 

[Extollere]

Because a good villain requires you to at least, in some respect, sympathize with them... Doc Oc had an actual character arch, and you see his struggle and plight. Even though he is in the wrong, you sympathize for his loss, and ultimately come to understand his reasons as he reconciles with his choices in the end... Someone once told me that the best villains are misunderstood heroes. They are heroes in their own right, fighting for something they believe is just. Their methods and morals may differ, but their struggle is often of equal importance to that of the hero. While I'm not sure that I buy that argument in the case of every antagonist, there is no doubt that such a perspective can make a great villain.

My guess is that villains in general are probably less understood (and less important) to movie writers, and executives than their heroes are. It's much easier to focus on, and advertise, central characters, while villainous characters (even 2-dimensional ones) can provide enough conflict and threat to keep the plot moving along. As much as I enjoy Marvel movies, most of them feel like focus-tested products to me more than artistic projects... million dollar movies demand million dollar profits, and when you've got 2 hours to flesh out an origin story, and create enough set-pieces and explosions for a sweet trailer the lowest common denominator will often do. It just means that great villains are that much more special when they come around.

 

[DecoReturns]

Sure. I edited another point to my post. Loki as a character is clearly a lucky role. His "origin" is clearly tied to Thor so not a lot additional work has to go into building him up. But all these other villains, need additional exposition scenes, and usually they're by themselves somewhere else. Being economical about your film, they're the first thing that's going to scarified to keep things afloat.



I agree.

Heh, that's what made Nolan's joker work, his origin being part of a mystery and the little changes they did to his look added to his character.

But I guess it also helped he's known already, while Marvel villians are mostly mystery to causal audience.

 

[- J - D -]

Speaking of: Why did they make Ultron a half-silver naked chick again?

Because Hank Pym and The Wasp are daddy and mommy.

 

[kswiston]

.

Ultron would be a cutter if his arms weren't coated in adamantium.

 

[guek]

I don't give a shit if anyone disagrees, Red Skull is one of the best comicbook movie villains. One dimensional? You bet your ass that motherfucker is one dimensional, he's a man on a singular mission to godhood. Weaving knocked it out of the park and the makeup and effects team was on point. He's the quintessential Nazi super villain.

 

[Slayven]

Better than the alternative we've had.

And besides, Doom has been deep in Marvel lore since the early days. I think he would be used far more, ESPECIALLY since he could be easily recast.

I think Marvel's choice of villains have been very deliberate, they haven't really used any with real meat on their bones. Except for Red Skull, but he never did anything above being a nazi dick. If they used Doom, they would use him right

 

[Dram]

I think it would help if the

Spoiler

villains survived so they could appear in more than one film

. For example

Spoiler

if Loki had died in the first Thor movie, I doubt he would have become as popular as he is now.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Magneto, Doom, and the Spider villains are out of their hands.

.

 

[Manmademan]

If these films are going to continue for the next decade or two, they will need to stop wasting all of their villains.

It's comics. No one stays dead. Several of them were eliminated by infinity gems and not actually "killed" per se, leaving the door wide open to show up again later. Red Skull and Ultron are glaringly obvious examples here.

Ronan is questionable.

Arnim Zola is almost certainly NOT dead, given what he is.

Crossbones isn't dead.

Loki isn't dead.

Abomination isn't dead.

No one has even seen the mandarin yet.

Who was wasted?

 

[Discotheque]

A big part of it is that the Marvel movies are really morally binary. Everyhing has to be black and white, and as such the writers just have to make the bad guys "bad" and leave it at that, forgoing any interesting characterization or nuance.

Also, you know, the movies are mostly mediocre anyway.

yep.

anyways if we're talking all marvel movies
doc ock > magneto > dafoe goblin >>>> the rest

personally as neutered as bane got after the talia reveal i still think he was better than mcu's best (which is considered what? loki? hmm...jeff bridges and sam rockwell were better imo, but that's just because i think loki has appeared in the bottom pile of mcu movies for me so it is skewing my opinion)

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I want to see if Marvel handle their villains differently going forward from Civil War since we know Zemo is going to be further developed in later films. Maybe they'll treat them better now that Feige has full reigns (or maybe not).

 

[kswiston]

I think Marvel's choice of villains have been very deliberate, they haven't really used any with real meat on their bones. Except for Red Skull, but he never did anything above being a nazi dick. If they used Doom, they would use him right

Ronan deserved better than he got. As did Strucker

 

[Slayven]

It's comics. No one stays dead. Several of them were eliminated by infinity gems and not actually "killed" per se, leaving the door wide open to show up again later. Red Skull and Ultron are glaringly obvious examples here.

Ronan is questionable.

Arnim Zola is almost certainly NOT dead, given what he is.

Crossbones isn't dead.

Loki isn't dead.

Abomination isn't dead.

No one has even seen the mandarin yet.

Who was wasted?

Darren Cross

Ronan deserved better than he got. As did Strucker

Hard to have sympathy when Drax and Gamora was much more brutalized

 

[old manatee]

Marvel gambled away all of their good characters in a poker game. Now we have 2 Thor movies.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Stan Lee said it best. Writing the hero is easy, you just have to write him once.

The villain? Keep throwing out something new each week and hope something makes an impression.

 

[Riposte]

Overall I'm disappointed with Marvel villains. The only really good one is Loki (but that doesn't really alleviate the whole "everything is always comedy" problem Marvel has). I liked Ultron, Pierce, and Killian well enough. Ronan was just tragic. I wish they would just stop killing every villain they have.

 

[fallengorn]

I want to see if Marvel handle their villains differently going forward from Civil War since we know Zemo is going to be further developed in later films. Maybe they'll treat them better now that Feige has full reigns (or maybe not).

I feel like Feige has heard the criticisms. I mean, they have the Raft now. Presumably, they're going to use it.

 

[Prompto]

yep.

anyways if we're talking all marvel movies
doc ock > magneto > dafoe goblin >>>> the rest

Loki, Obediah Stane, and Stryker are up there with Doc Ock, magneto and Gobiln.
I feel like the only person who enjoyed Jeff Bridges in the first Iron Man.

 

[Cuburt]

I can't say I agree. Say what you want about DC but Batman's villains are arguably more popular than most heroes.

The Dark Knight and TDKR took it even further and was like "Batman who? We know who you are here to see, the villains!"

 

[Dead Man]

I think it would help if the

Spoiler

villains survived so they could appear in more than one film

. For example

Spoiler

if Loki had died in the first Thor movie, I doubt he would have become as popular as he is now.

Red Skull was too good for this world.

 

[- J - D -]

Killian was actually a great villain. A really clever one. To dismiss him as just another corporate asshole is misguided, to say the least.

 

[george_us]

He decided to embrace his feminine side and remade himself into the shape of his mother The Wasp. Not even joking

Because Hank Pym and The Wasp are daddy and mommy.

Ahahahaha of course.

I think Marvel's choice of villains have been very deliberate, they haven't really used any with real meat on their bones. Except for Red Skull, but he never did anything above being a nazi dick. If they used Doom, they would use him right

Ronan was really the only villain they got completely wrong, but my knowledge of him is limited to the 2004-2011 Cosmic Marvel run. He was incredible in that period imo.

 

[Manmademan]

Honestly, Batman has the best villains and I consider just having that property to work with a huge advantage over everyone else. Only other hero close is Spider-Man.

Absolutely not. There are some really awesome rogues galleries you're overlooking that are way better than the bat stable.

I would put COBRA and the X-villains above both. Maybe the decepticons if we ignore the movie incarnations.

 

[Exodust]

I don't think it's hit or miss, I think it's complete miss. Can't say I thought any of the villains worked or mattered in the MCU except for Loki, who I still don't see the big deal about.

Sucks because I'd love to see some of my favorite Marvel villains done right. Later if/when they get the rights to F4 back I'd love to see Doom and Galactus done right. Here's hoping Thanos works out.

 

[Discotheque]

Loki, Obediah Stane, and Stryker are up there with Doc Ock, magneto and Gobiln.
I feel like the only person who enjoyed Jeff Bridges in the first Iron Man.

yeah stryker > obediah > the rest should be added in there. I threw the jeff bridges mention in the rest of my post.

i think the thors were garbage though and i did not care much for avengers so that is definitely skewing my opinion of loki. hiddleston's showing talent but i don't really care for loki's appearances. he's got the talent for it but there's barely any gravitas given to him.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Red Skull didn't really need to be more layered

The Nazis actually were that fucking crazy, especially when it came to mystical objects of power.

 

[guek]

Loki, Obediah Stane, and Stryker are up there with Doc Ock, magneto and Gobiln.
I feel like the only person who enjoyed Jeff Bridges in the first Iron Man.

Stane was great