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Why are Marvel's film villains so hit and miss?

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kswiston said:
Most people want someone who looks cool, comes off as a real and believable threat, and delivers a memorable performance.


Vader and Joker hit those. Ronan, not so much.
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If that's all people wanted, that would be one thing, be the whole discussion comes up about wanting villains that aren't one dimensional. Then you get the whole expectations of complexity and pathos and tragedy that people hold up as the bar for a great villain. It's just made the whole discussion pretty watered down imo.

Ronan looks cool and sounds cool to me. He was powerful, was a threat, and had a great performance that kept the balance between too over-the-top/hammy and too "normal".

So why doesn't he work for people when he delivers on the same levels as these other characters who are more about their performance than their character?
 
I wish they don't feel the need to kill them off for good. Ronan was awesome but underdeveloped but doesn't mean he can't come back sometime in the future. Why do they HAVE to kill them. I like what they did with red skull leaving the door open to at least bring him back.

One thing I was excited about AOU was swing baron Von strucker. He was pretty good in the short winter soldier end credit scene. I thought he would have s bigger role than an opening scene jobber. At the very least they didn't have to kill him.

Hydra main baddies are dropping like flies!
 
Jonogunn said:
I wish they don't feel the need to kill them off for good. Ronan was awesome but underdeveloped but doesn't mean he can't come back sometime in the future. Why do they HAVE to kill them. I like what they did with red skull leaving the door open to at least bring him back.

One thing I was excited about AOU was swing baron Von strucker. He was pretty good in the short winter soldier end credit scene. I thought he would have s bigger role than an opening scene jobber. At the very least they didn't have to kill him.

Hydra main baddies are dropping like flies!
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Dude got killed with an assist to Pratt's pelvic thrust. He's the opposite of awesome.
 
Cuburt said:
If that's all people wanted, that would be one thing, be the whole discussion comes up about wanting villains that aren't one dimensional. Then you get the whole expectations of complexity and pathos and tragedy that people hold up as the bar for a great villain. It's just made the whole discussion pretty watered down imo.

Ronan looks cool and sounds cool to me. He was powerful, was a threat, and had a great performance that kept the balance between too over-the-top/hammy and too "normal".

So why doesn't he work for people when he delivers on the same levels as these other characters who are more about their performance than their character?
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Because his performance isn't in the same vicinity as the joker's? The scenes he got weren't very good either tbh.

No way does he deliver on the same level. And darth Vader is just iconic as hell at this point.
 
Cuburt said:
If that's all people wanted, that would be one thing, be the whole discussion comes up about wanting villains that aren't one dimensional. Then you get the whole expectations of complexity and pathos and tragedy that people hold up as the bar for a great villain. It's just made the whole discussion pretty watered down imo.

Ronan looks cool and sounds cool to me. He was powerful, was a threat, and had a great performance that kept the balance between too over-the-top/hammy and too "normal".

So why doesn't he work for people when he delivers on the same levels as these other characters who are more about their performance than their character?
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Ronan wasn't a threat, he lost to the power of friendship and dance. He was a joke.
 
Red Skull was fine because he IS that much of an asshole. Marvel should bring him back.

The sad thing about the treatment of Ronan is that as a humorless legalist-proceduralist asshole (as opposed to a religious zealot) he's much more interesting AND would draw a much better contrast with the lawless Guardians, without even necessarily coming across as evil per se.

Honestly, fully half of Marvel's villain problem (outside of the evil CEOs) is that they're too willing to kill their villains off. Why invest development in someone who's gonna die anyway?
 
Ronan had no presence, when he shows up on screen you didn't feel any different, it was just..."oh its Ronan....".

It's also why people keep making fun of Thanos, no real presence or foreboding in any of his cameos.
 
If I were to put MCU's villains into tiers, it would go (in no particular order)

Good
Loki - exceptional charisma with just the right amount of petulance so it's entertaining watching him fail
Obadiah Stane - well acted, fits very well with Tony's backstory, albeit he feels very vanilla now after so many corrupt businessman villains
Red Skull - the best presence out of any MCU villain, he's got that swagger on lock. Weaving probably gives the best performance out of all MCU villains
Arnim Zola - fuck the haters, the brain in a computer thing in Winter Soldier was brilliant campy sci-fi. Toby Jones is pitch perfect as the meek scientist as well. His one on one with Tommy Lee Jones was fantastic in First Avenger
Winter Soldier - felt like an unstoppable force that bodied just about anyone who got in his way
Alexander Pierce - Redford was a great foil to Sam Jackson and really sold the hiding in plain sight philosophy for Hydra

OK/Competent
Ultron - Spader did a great job but ultimately the movie surrounding him isn't as good as his performance. He could have been great with a little tweaking
Darren Cross - as generic as they get but Stoll plays the deranged aspect of him so well, I still enjoy whenever he's on screen
Justin Hammer - just like Spader, Rockwell's performance is better than the movie he's in. I hope he comes back at some point
Aldrich Killian - whether you like the mandarin twist or not, Killian was well fleshed out with clear motivations and plenty of charisma by Pierce. It's too bad he went out like a chump . I'd really love for his head to be resurrected as MODOK
Nebula - she could be really good but didn't get enough screen time. Thankfully we'll see more of her in Vol. 2
Korath the pursuer - it's telling when a villains lieutenants are better than the villain. Hounsou is always entertaining on screen, which is more than I can say for Ronan
Crossbones - his role in Winter Soldier was just set up which will hopefully pay off. He was a solid mook

Forgettable
Whiplash - Rourke tried his best but aside from a few rare moments of genuine fun (JOU LOOSE, STARK), I don't care to see him ever return
Laufey - Marvel did him dirty, he died like a complete scrub

Terrible
Ronan - he didn't have the presence of Red Skull and therefore making him a religious fanatic felt flat and one note. His design was also garbage. What a complete waste.
Malekith/Kurse - who really cares about these two? Their motivations are vague and their elf language sounds idiotic. Kurse was a decent mook but overall, I didn't care for em at all.

Am I forgetting anyone? I feel like I am. Oh well. As a whole, the track record isn't stellar. I think the complaints are slightly overblown but the criticism is valid.

edit: oh yeah, Thanos. Personally, I don't think it's fair to judge him when he's had like 2 minutes of screen time tops.
 
I don't think Malekith was Ronan tier and he at least had one of the craziest final battles.

The weird thing about Cross is how they imply the pym particles were making him go crazy (which opens some interesting doors for Pym, although with Ultron out of the bag, who cares), but it's basically one line that's quickly forgotten.
 
The Silver said:
Ronan had no presence, when he shows up on screen you didn't feel any different, it was just..."oh its Ronan....".

It's also why people keep making fun of Thanos, no real presence or foreboding in any of his cameos.
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Wait till Infinity War when he just snaps his finger and half the Galaxy blows up.

Thanos ain't someone to fuck with. Pretty must every Superhero will job to him. So that's why I believe Infinity War will be where he'll look threatening.
 
Discotheque said:
Because his performance isn't in the same vicinity as the joker's? The scenes he got weren't very good either tbh.

No way does he deliver on the same level. And darth Vader is just iconic as hell at this point.
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Darth Vader being iconic doesn't say anything about what makes him a good villain. There is no thought in that statement since that assumes he was created as a fully formed iconic villain the day ANH first came out.

I'm not saying Ronan's performance is at the same level as the Joker, I'm saying it's a performance that delivers and is unique but it delivers on the same levels that kswiston says Vader and Joker work: they look cool, they deliver a memorable performance, and are a believable threat.

Subpar Spatula said:
Ronan wasn't a threat, he lost to the power of friendship and dance. He was a joke.
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Vader is locked onto Luke in the trench and is sent spinning off into space by the Millenium Falcon and a tie pilot next to him. This is someone who is supposed to be powerful in the darkside and he is twarted by a smuggler while a moisture farmer destroys their ultimate weapon/base. His troops are beat up by teddy bears. He almost loses to an old man who has been in hiding in the desert for like 30 years. And he even far less powerful and capable than he was in his 20's but people fear him because he can do an invisible choke. He is in a clumsy robot body with a breathing apparatus, he's practically handicapped even with advanced tech keeping him alive.

What a goof.
 
I can't wait until we see The Avengers fight The Absorbing Man and that guy with the mythical crowbar.

Top tier shit right there.
 
That's been one of the bigger issues I have with the hero movies. They are either not fully explored as characters, this thing happens to them so they are bad/they want power so they are bad and thats it.

A lot of characters, especially villains have an enjoyable arc to them but we never get to see it since they are confined to a single movie, while sharing running time with a good guy, AND these movies being fairly insistent to kill the villain off without working that comic book magic of revival.

Shit Dr. Doom is one of the more interesting villains and after 3 movies he still seems lame to movie goers but to comic readers, we know how much a badass villain he is.
 
I actually saw Guardians again today because I wanted to see Thanos again, and to me, it felt like his presence completely undersells Ronan because of how threatening Thanos actually looked.

Of course they could have done better, and remember there was supposed to be more of him until Whedon (I've read) decided not to because they want to expose him slowly to the audience to build up Infinity War while not making it feel like "oh, this guy" when he actually takes center stage.

I'm curious to see how they will flesh out Thanos, from what I've read about him his plans/goals are completely nonsensical because he literally wants to be the most powerful being in the universe (I'm sure some people would still be able to relate to that) but at least physically and intellectually he seems like a heavyweight. I loved the "your politics bore me" line with Ronan, made him look otherworldly and completely beyond the usual run of the mill villain types.

Also felt this turned ronan into a complete joke by the end with the dancing Quill.
 
I honestly didn't remember a lot of the MCU villains(Red Skull. Jeff Bridges, Ronan, etc.) before seeing them in this thread. The only ones I really know off the top of my head are Loki, Ultron and Thanos and Loki's the only one I like. They just care more about the heroes. Or think audiences only care about heroes.
 
I have to agree. Almost all the MCU villains except Loki have been meh to bad. Ronan, you suck.

I think this the major weak point of MCU movies. I never feel there is a real threat or interesting notes to them. I thought Ultron was gonna do it, but naw, that flamed out.
 
Pretty sure Thanos is going to end up stomping all over the heroes in IW1, with an ending/post credits scene providing some hope that will lead to the eventual victory in IW2.
 
Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger, Red Skull and all the villains in the Winter Solider are great for what they are. Mostly evil assholes who you want the hero to beat.

I like Yellowjacket? He had more going on than he's getting credit for, I think. He was conflicted; he cared about Hank Pym as a mentor (and Hope/Wasp) and hated him for abandoning him because he "saw too much of himself in him." Which in a subtextual way meant Hank sensed dangerous, violent tendencies in him. Sure, you might say it's "tacked on" or not realized enough but it's there and I think the actor, Corey Stoll, did a good job illustrating that concept, insufficient material he may have had.
 
Ronan lost to a Care Bear Stare. He's trash, b.

Loki, Red Skull, Winter Soldier, Yellowjacket, and Stane are the villains I've enjoyed. Most are forgettable, or in Ultron's case, annoying.
 
Maybe they would have done better if they didn't kill everyone off. Look at Star Wars. Villain, Vader, lasts 3 movies. This new movie trilogy will likely keep kylo ren around till IX.

If Marvel had made it so that some villains can survive more than one movie besides Loki, which has been an even better character for it, then maybe the villains could end up more compelling.
 
It almost has to be deliberate at this point. As mentioned, we've seen plenty of interesting villains in the non-Disney Marvel movies. It's not some inherent problem with the material or form.
 
There is no secret sauce, it's just basic storytelling: for a villain to work, he has to be the hero's dark mirror - someone who isn't just a physical / psychological threat but an existential one. The villain doesn't just attack the heroes but erodes the heroic values they stand for.

The Mandarin and Ultron flirted with this notion (and their supposedly existential threat was heavily emphasized in the trailers) but ultimately didn't deliver on it.

All Marvel is doing is throwing up flamboyant goons as obstacles to be overcome by the heroes' powers / teamwork / new-found confidence in the third act.

If you're lucky, you get some mileage out of the actor's charisma and delivery, maybe a dry quip here and there, but they have so little dramatic resonance on a thematic level they just fall flat.
 
The main reason is because most of their movies focus on the hero's journey and use the villain as a means to an end, rather than starting with a villain's plot and working out the lesson for the hero from that (e.g. The Dark Knight, where Batman's journey kind of takes a back seat to the incredible performance of Joker)

I won't deny that it doesn't always work. I was disappointed when Ultron wasn't as compelling as had been expected, and I think the business with Killian in Iron Man 3 was handled badly even if I enjoyed the other twist.

I think the plan for phase 2 was to try and explore this angle but it failed in execution (see also: Malekith being sidelined for Loki). I attribute this partly to behind-the-scenes influence from producers, especially on Ultron, where the conflict between "this needs to shake up the MCU" and "this needs to be a safe money-maker" is clearly visible on the screen.
 
One great villain from the MCU who I would love to see more of is Killgrave (Purple Man) from Jessica Jones.

David Tennant was great in the role and I would love to see him in a Marvel movie in the future.

He could really mess with our heroes.
Hopefully he can be brought back from death after Infinity Wars, maybe Thanos will resurrect any dead villains with the power of the Infinity Stones
 
Thanos will be such a letdown after 6 years of buildup. He will probably be a generic CGI space dude with an alien army.
 
Right now I'm thinking it's because they're just building up the squad so when Thanos comes in and wrecks their buttholes in IW part1 it'll get the public really invested in part 2 since they're so used to the Avengers kicking everyones ass and cracking jokes about it.

Atleast that's what I hope it is. If Thanos ends up being just another Loki or Ultron, then yeah I gotta believe it's deliberate and Disney is getting involved.
 
Kind of weird that the TV shows have done so well; Kingpin and Kilgrave were both standouts in their respective casts.
 
Ultron was the pushing point for me, how could they botch such a great villian, throw boring fodder at the Avengers then Ultron gets in a Jet to shoot at them when he's licked..
 
Clear said:
Kind of weird that the TV shows have done so well; Kingpin and Kilgrave were both standouts in their respective casts.
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They have a lot longer to build up each villain in the TV shows, though admittedly other superhero films don't seem to have the same problem as a lot of the MCU films.
 
Clear said:
Kind of weird that the TV shows have done so well; Kingpin and Kilgrave were both standouts in their respective casts.
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It's not really that weird. They're given much more time to develop character in the TV shows. The movie villains are around for two hours, then usually killed off.
 
Man, Ronan was such a disappointment. One of my absolute favorite Marvel characters - he's a bureaucrat and a statist, not a zealot. Comic Ronan wouldn't dream of disobeying the Kree and going on the warpath - he's lawful, for good and for bad. He's a fantastic shades-of-grey character that would have made a great foil to the equally ambiguous Guardians.

And I think Lee Pace would have really pulled it off, too. He has all of the bombast and rhetorical style that Ronan needs. He's just too shallow for any of it to really work.

Outside of him (and Gamora), GOTG was absolutely perfect for me. Such a shame.
 
Cuburt said:
Darth Vader being iconic doesn't say anything about what makes him a good villain. There is no thought in that statement since that assumes he was created as a fully formed iconic villain the day ANH first came out.

I'm not saying Ronan's performance is at the same level as the Joker, I'm saying it's a performance that delivers and is unique but it delivers on the same levels that kswiston says Vader and Joker work: they look cool, they deliver a memorable performance, and are a believable threat.



Vader is locked onto Luke in the trench and is sent spinning off into space by the Millenium Falcon and a tie pilot next to him. This is someone who is supposed to be powerful in the darkside and he is twarted by a smuggler while a moisture farmer destroys their ultimate weapon/base. His troops are beat up by teddy bears. He almost loses to an old man who has been in hiding in the desert for like 30 years. And he even far less powerful and capable than he was in his 20's but people fear him because he can do an invisible choke. He is in a clumsy robot body with a breathing apparatus, he's practically handicapped even with advanced tech keeping him alive.

What a goof.
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But he doesn't look cool or menacing that's the point. If you dressed up as a Ronan and went to halloween do you think anyone would give a shit beyond, hey it's that guy was in Guardian's of the Galaxy.

Vader has a unique iconic voice, well known quoted lines,and was the evil bad guy that wielded a red lightsaber. Heath Ledger's Joker a had great presence, immensely quotable lines and was linked to Heath's own tragedy. Ronan has absolutely none of those things. he's generic villain number 13466532.
 
Only MCU villain that I didn't find completely forgettable was Loki. Makes sense though the guy has been in 3 movies.
 
Probably because they don't show enough of what the villains do in their spare time.

dSqYevV.png
 
Here's Marvel Studio's strategy for villains:

- Find a talented and critically acclaimed actor or actress
- Cast said person in iconic role loved by comic book fans
- Give said person a pile of crappy lines written on toilet paper
- Shoot the film

Edit: Forgot the final step.

- If somehow said person managed inject actual personality and character into the role, cut all those scenes out during editing
 
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