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[TwEE-N-Toast]

You can't do the character without having had Captain Marvel around for years and without the Inhumans at the very minimum.

The Inhumans are as boring as fuck, so I hope they retcon that out.

They can also have Miss Marvel as a secret legacy character that has been gone for years (like the Ant characters) and just recently popped up on the public's radar.

The Kid becomes fan, Miss Marvel gets a promotion, yaddd yadda.

 

[LionPride]

Haven't seen EMH but when I think about women from those other shows I think Mary Jane, Black Cat, Rogue and Storm. When I think of DCAU I think Harley, Batgirl, Poison Ivy, Lois Lane, Amanda Waller, Catwoman, WW, Hawkgirl, Raven, Supergirl, Black Canary, Huntress, etc. I remember great storylines and episodes with those characters that none of the marvel toons could touch. They also just do more with their female characters in general and not just cartoons.

The DCAU as well as DC cartoons period tended to be better than Marvel cartoons so yeah. You should remember those more fondly

 

[Penguin]

Haven't seen EMH but when I think about women from those other shows I think Mary Jane, Black Cat, Rogue and Storm. When I think of DCAU I think Harley, Batgirl, Poison Ivy, Lois Lane, Amanda Waller, Catwoman, WW, Hawkgirl, Raven, Supergirl, Black Canary, Huntress, etc. I remember great storylines and episodes with those characters that none of the marvel toons could touch. They also just do more with their female characters in general and not just cartoons.

I wanted to highlight these because I think this is one advantage DC has/had over Marvel, DC has always allowed creators to kind of mix up the formula if needed.

Harley was created for BTAS because thought Joker needed someone to play off of.

Putting Hawkgirl on the League was made because realized JL traditionally only had one female and got rid of Aquaman to do so.

And using Black Canary and Huntress is any big role probably wouldn't have been possible if struck strictly to the comics.

Where like Marvel doesn't necessarily make those changes when adapting... nor do they tend to do a ton of movement

Like the female mutant that was created for X-Men Legends... as far as I can tell never became a major star.

 

[Deepwater]

The Inhumans are as boring as fuck, so I hope they retcon that out.

They can also have Miss Marvel as a secret legacy character that has been gone for years (like the Ant characters) and just recently popped up on the public's radar.

The Kid becomes fan, Miss Marvel gets a promotion, yaddd yadda.

the inhumans are not boring, they're just not nearly as important as Marvel wants them to be

I wanted to highlight these because I think this is one advantage DC has/had over Marvel, DC has always allowed creators to kind of mix up the formula if needed.

Harley was created for BTAS because thought Joker needed someone to play off of.

Putting Hawkgirl on the League was made because realized JL traditionally only had one female and got rid of Aquaman to do so.

And using Black Canary and Huntress is any big role probably wouldn't have been possible if struck strictly to the comics.

Where like Marvel doesn't necessarily make those changes when adapting... nor do they tend to do a ton of movement

Like the female mutant that was created for X-Men Legends... as far as I can tell never became a major star.

You forget that X-23 was created for Evolution and then found a place in the comics

 

[Penguin]

the inhumans are not boring, they're just not nearly as important as Marvel wants them to be



You forget that X-23 was created for Evolution and then found a place in the comics

Ok
That's a good one and did forget
I know Evolution had characters like that but my mind went to Spyke first, not even sure if he was an original creation.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I wanted to highlight these because I think this is one advantage DC has/had over Marvel, DC has always allowed creators to kind of mix up the formula if needed.

Harley was created for BTAS because thought Joker needed someone to play off of.

Putting Hawkgirl on the League was made because realized JL traditionally only had one female and got rid of Aquaman to do so.

And using Black Canary and Huntress is any big role probably wouldn't have been possible if struck strictly to the comics.

Where like Marvel doesn't necessarily make those changes when adapting... nor do they tend to do a ton of movement

Like the female mutant that was created for X-Men Legends... as far as I can tell never became a major star.

I wish the DCEU could get a direct version of DCAU Hawkgirl.

 

[Deepwater]

I wish the DCEU could get a direct version of DCAU Hawkgirl.

honestly it'd be a great Justice league 2 & 3 plot.

 

[blakep267]

D.C. IS just better at the full gamut of media. There's been tons of cartoons with female characters. Hawkgirl, supergirl and WW in the JL cartoon, teen Titans has been going since 2003 featuring Raven and Star fire, Batman has had multiple incarnations featuring batgirl and Harley Quinn, cat woman, poison ivy. Now the super hero girls show. Then Live action shows, Birds of Prey, Supergirl etc.

Marvel just wasn't good at those other mediums as D.C. was. Where's the animated Ms Marvel cartoon or movie? There was a push in the mid 2000's where a bunch of people got movies. Heck even dr strange got one. Yet no female super heroes

 

[Pandora012]

How's her personality currently?

I love her currently, though I've only picked up the current Uncanny Avengers volume with her as lead. The whole team bounces off each other really well. I'm not sure what's happened with here previously, but she's solid now. Though it was a bit surprising that

Spoiler

Deadpool and her are kindof together now.

Well not so surprising, the writers made it seem like natural step.

honestly it'd be a great Justice league 2 & 3 plot.

That would be cool. Loved that arc in JL.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Batgirl and Supergirl are basically banking off their more popular make counter parts.

Batgirl and Supergirl have been popular characters in their own right for decades at this point.

 

[ValkyrUser]

After seeing her put on the IM suit in IM 3 I was hoping we were gonna get Rescue.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Harley was created for BTAS because thought Joker needed someone to play off of.

I think it was a little less deliberate than that, though. I'm pretty sure Paul Dini has said he was just making a Joker henchman and decided to make it a role for his friend Arleen Sorkin, then she was so popular she became a thing... but the original intent was just that he needed an extra set of hands for the script in the episode Joker's Favor.

(I guess that kind of supports your point, though.)

 

[Just_myles]

Because they push boring ones like Carol.

First post and already Carol Danvers hate.

 

[Pandora012]

First post and already Carol Danvers hate.

To be fair, they really really made her unlikable in the last event.

 

[Machine]

DC has been pushing its ladies since the 60s!

 

[Just_myles]

To be fair, they really really made her unlikable in the last event.

I have learned to be a bit more lenient. I don't even know what most people are expecting her to be. All I hear is she is bad. Yes, she's dry but, you know, Carol is a Col. last I checked. In the military. What are people expecting?

 

[Penguin]

I think it was a little less deliberate than that, though. I'm pretty sure Paul Dini has said he was just making a Joker henchman and decided to make it a role for his friend Arleen Sorkin, then she was so popular she became a thing... but the original intent was just that he needed an extra set of hands for the script in the episode Joker's Favor.

(I guess that kind of supports your point, though.)

Ha yeah it was an oversimplification of her origins, but it was the gist of it. Someone who they could play off of the Joker with. She evolved into a much more complex character as they bought her back.

 

[Pandora012]

I have learned to be a bit more lenient. I don't even know what most people are expecting her to be. All I hear is she is bad. Yes, she's dry but, you know, Carol is a Col. last I checked. In the military. What are people expecting?

It's not that I really expected anything from her. Honestly, she was only ever in my sight because of her relationship with Rogue. As for the military thing, I'd like to think they would be a little more flexible, especially when people are telling you that the tool your using is not infallible and that it's not right what they are doing. Additionally, she got people killed and hurt, yet still blindly followed.

 

[spyroflame0487]

They're really pushing Carol hard and its annoying, and probably only because of the movie if we're being honest.

There's far superior heroines like Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk and I actually really like Viv Vision too.

 

[Deepwater]

I have learned to be a bit more lenient. I don't even know what most people are expecting her to be. All I hear is she is bad. Yes, she's dry but, you know, Carol is a Col. last I checked. In the military. What are people expecting?

Honestly, and I say this as someone who doesn't like her current characterization, I legit think it's a mixture of her being a hard ass fascist AND a female character at the same time on top of her just being written like shit. I think she does get a bit of additional vitriol that Tony and Reed Richards doesn't because of her female authoritarian nature, but ALSO because she's written horribly 90% of the time.

I thought she was fine in CW (to an extent where everyone was holding the stupid ball at one point and time), but she's just been shit the last couple of years.

 

[Pandora012]

Honestly, and I say this as someone who doesn't like her current characterization, I legit think it's a mixture of her being a hard ass fascist AND a female character at the same time on top of her just being written like shit. I think she does get a bit of additional vitriol that Tony and Reed Richards doesn't because of her female authoritarian nature, but ALSO because she's written horribly 90% of the time.

I thought she was fine in CW (to an extent where everyone was holding the stupid ball at one point and time), but she's just been shit the last couple of years.

That is true, many people were actin a fool in CW.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Marvel is misogynistic too. Ironman was a complete nobody but is now the biggest super hero movie brand. Thor is similar. You get the point. Marvel never believed in women but gave nobody brands a huge fucking chance.

What? Spidey, Xmen, Hulk, FF and Iron Man always been the most mainstream set of characters, is why they all got TV shows dating back decades.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Carol has a lot of potential. If they nail the movie, the sky's the limit. And they'd better. She's got the company name.

Also, and I'm just rambling a bit out loud here...

the idea that she's bland or boring in the comics is about as forced in comics-GAF as Carol herself is within Marvel. Unlikeable, yes she can be. She's usually written in a pretty abrasive way, and she has just a hint of a conservative streak (see BOTH Civil Wars). She also has a long history of being a complete fuck up among Marvel super heroes and is always about one bad day from falling back there. BUT she's always been treated better by the dregs and underdogs (the X-Men, the Starjammers, Chris Claremont) than the preppies and popular kids (the Avengers, Jim Shooter/David Michelinie). It's like she wants to be legit (both she within the fiction and Marvel IRL want this) and she has been in recent years, but deep down she fits in better with the freaks.

I don't think the movie will characterize her that way, nor should it, but that's how I've always seen her. I think she's a weird creation for a lot of reasons within and outside the fiction, but the complaint that she's boring always rings very hollow to me.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

For as great as Spider-Man's villains are, not one of them is a top tier female villain.

 

[Deepwater]

For as great as Spider-Man's villains are, not one of them is a top tier female villain.

The only popular female villain I can think of that is consistently a villain is Poison Ivy.

 

[Penguin]

The only popular female villain I can think of that is consistently a villain is Poison Ivy.

Mystique... or has the movie made her more of a tweener?

Maybe Talia?

 

[Deepwater]

Mystique... or has the movie made her more of a tweener?

Maybe Talia?

forgot those. Mystique is one, although I would say she flip flops pretty evenly.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Nearly all Marvel's public recognition female characters are Team characters, and generally sufficiently integral you couldn't split them from the team and get a rights holder to bite. No reason you couldn't Wolverine them though.

The only (not currently in use) sort of exception I can think of is Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) who did manage a cartoon in like the 80s. Oh I think I sorta remember being aware of Scarlet Witch as a kid in the late 80s / early 90s.

And both of those have the kind of continuity issues that will make you hit your head on a desk repeatedly. They aren't Donna Troy bad but they try hard.

I think that's because DCs teams are different to Marvel's in that they never had a team of original characters as a center IP, they were more about introducing new characters and spotlighting exisiting ones. Mind you, that wasn't always a success. X-Men kicked DCs behind until the 80s Teen Titans series debuted, which was a fairly Marvel style team book.

Edit -
Poison Ivy has been really inconsistent on the villain thing since like the mid 2000s. There have been attempts to go one way or the other but she seems to snap back to a little more villainous than Harlequin fairly consistently.

Talia is kind of the opposite she started fairly grey (similar motivation to Ra's but with a bit more humanity) and then started spit roasting puppies around Death and the Maidens and stayed there with only minor variations. She's also not really a standalone character, she's way to associated with the Bats and the League of Assassins.

Lady Shiva maybe ? She's a female DC villain , you could probably get a movie out of. She's fairly standalone since she outgrew her initial heroic opponent, is badass , and is definitely villainous but has her own warped morality.

 

[Ronin Ray]

Storm, jean Grey and rouge could be as big or bigger then anything DC has but there x men so Marvel wont push them. In the movies they have to take a backseat to Wolverine or Mystique.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Storm, jean Grey and rouge could be as big or bigger then anything DC has but there x men so Marvel wont push them. In the movies they have to take a backseat to Wolverine or Mystique.

Marvel isn't pushing them because Fox owns the movie rights and there's enough bad blood there they aren't going to do free promotion for Fox. If anything they've been doing the opposite , sidelining mutants and retconning ones they can get away with to be non-mutants. Its Fox that would need to push those characters.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

To be sure, Fox is the reason the X-men in general suck right now.

 

[Schweinehund]

Wasp is cool but she never gets pushed. Her and Hank should have been in the original avengers, instead of hawkeye and black widow.

 

[Just_myles]

It's not that I really expected anything from her. Honestly, she was only ever in my sight because of her relationship with Rogue. As for the military thing, I'd like to think they would be a little more flexible, especially when people are telling you that the tool your using is not infallible and that it's not right what they are doing. Additionally, she got people killed and hurt, yet still blindly followed.

Honestly, and I say this as someone who doesn't like her current characterization, I legit think it's a mixture of her being a hard ass fascist AND a female character at the same time on top of her just being written like shit. I think she does get a bit of additional vitriol that Tony and Reed Richards doesn't because of her female authoritarian nature, but ALSO because she's written horribly 90% of the time.

I thought she was fine in CW (to an extent where everyone was holding the stupid ball at one point and time), but she's just been shit the last couple of years.

Not sure how I feel about it. I think between Richards, Rogers, and Stark over the years especially in the first civil war. Imo they were handled pretty badly and I don't recall folks saying they were shit or mis-characterized, or written horriblly etc..

Even the movie version of Cap was kind of a a-hole for not being open to another's opinion when being faced with facts(there are consequences for our actions). Does that sound familiar?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

You can't do the character without having had Captain Marvel around for years and without the Inhumans at the very minimum.

Nonsense, they did Ultron without Hank Pym didn't they?

Kamala can be a girl stuck in New York during the events of the first Avengers movie and inspired by seeing those heroes up close.

Done.

 

[shingi70]

Not sure how I feel about it. I think between Richards, Rogers, and Stark over the years especially in the first civil war. Imo they were handled pretty badly and I don't recall folks saying they were shit or mis-characterized, or written horriblly etc..

Even the movie version of Cap was kind of a a-hole for not being open to another's opinion when being faced with facts(there are consequences for our actions). Does that sound familiar?

Well Richards and stark have always been assholes. The SRA was always a logical end game for them as characters.


Rogers in the movie is weird, he's obviously wrong but for sake of the plot your supposed to root for him. It becomes more obvious when halfway through he's no longer fighting over the Accords but saving his friend from Justice.

 

[Valkerionseven]

I was a fan of Carol until she became Captain Marvel. I thought it was their big chance to make her interesting and awesome. She kinda was for like 10 minutes then they just took her off the rails.

Gimmie this one back please.

But yeah Marvel's best ladies rarely shine, they are either tragic power pieces ala Phoenix, or parts of way more interesting teams ala Songbird, OR just not that interesting on their own. DC has given some of their ladies clear times to shine in multiple media, comics, animations, and now a movie. Batgirl had a whole episode about just her in the animated show, I think Batman is in it for 3 lines, and Robin is just a story tie in but its definitely about her. Same with even side characters like Starfire, she came into a lot of popularity because of their cartoon.

 

[hodayathink]

Nonsense, they did Ultron without Hank Pym didn't they?

Kamala can be a girl stuck in New York during the events of the first Avengers movie and inspired by seeing those heroes up close.

Done.

I'd argue that a large part of her character is her fandom of the superheroes, Carol Danvers especially. You could have her adopt the Ms. Marvel name out of nowhere, but that just doesn't seem right.

Also, Kamala's probably never getting a live-action TV show because her powers are too expensive to do properly on TV.

Wasp is cool but she never gets pushed. Her and Hank should have been in the original avengers, instead of hawkeye and black widow.

Sounds like that's on Edgar Wright. As far as I know, it's always been his idea to push Scott instead of Hank, and he's the one that wouldn't let Whedon use Janet.

Also, I think a Spider-Gwen movie is going to happen within the next 5 years. It makes too much sense, and Sony is too much in need of material from the Spider-Man mythos for them not to do it. The only thing that I could see stopping them is Marvel telling them they have plans for the character, which I don't see happening anytime soon as I don't see Marvel delving much more into alternate realities anytime soon (even though I want them to).

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Uh, I think they went with Natasha & Clint over Hank & Janet in Avengers because the influence of the Ultimates(which featured Black Widow & Hawkeye as SHIELD agents) and mainly because Hank is famously known for slapping Janet and his character has never really recovered for that. Even in "The Ultimates", Hank was a wife beater and they weren't going to use that character in their big superhero crossover film.

I seriously doubt Edgar Wright was the dominant deciding factor for Scott being the MCU Ant-Man over Hank Pym.

 

[Htown]

To be fair, they really really made her unlikable in the last event.

My theory is that they took the wrong lesson from Iron Man's success and figured they needed to make the character an asshole in a Civil War event to plant the seeds for a successful movie.

 

[Just_myles]

Well Richards and stark have always been assholes. The SRA was always a logical end game for them as characters.


Rogers in the movie is weird, he's obviously wrong but for sake of the plot your supposed to root for him. It becomes more obvious when halfway through he's no longer fighting over the Accords but saving his friend from Justice.

Well that is because it was stated in a dialogue the two had about being futurist blah blah blah.. I think that is fair to say that is the most logical option for them. However, look at what they did:

Iron Man:

• Fake an attack using the Crimsom dynamo to accelerate the SRA.
• Using Spiderman to reveal his identity to drive his own agenda. Knowing that this will in fact endanger his family and friends.

He may have been a recovering alcoholic but, not a sociopath.

Reed Richards:

• Created a robo Thor. Why in the hell would he do that? Even for Richards, that's kind of weird and out of character.

 

[jdstorm]

Because Wonder Woman, Supergirl and Batgirl have all appeared in live action TV shows or films. You could also add Catwoman to that list.

Plus Marvels best female heroes are all X men or Sue Storm all of which are not currently owned by Marvel and have been on the backburner for a while now. The exception to that rule is Black Widow, but she comes across as a generic russian spy and is most interesting when paired up with Captain America.

Maybe thats the real difference. DC superheroes feel like the Defult Character Archtype while most Marvel Heroes feel generic and derivitive.


Edit. The biggest MCU screw up was having Clint Barton as Hawkeye over Kate Bishop.

 

[broncobuster]

Uh, I think they went with Natasha & Clint over Hank & Janet in Avengers because the influence of the Ultimates(which featured Black Widow & Hawkeye as SHIELD agents) and mainly because Hank is famously known for slapping Janet and his character has never really recovered for that. Even in "The Ultimates", Hank was a wife beater and they weren't going to use that character in their big superhero crossover film.

I seriously doubt Edgar Wright was the dominant deciding factor for Scott being the MCU Ant-Man over Hank Pym.

iirc Wasp was in the Zak Penn Avengers script. I believe Joss Whedon also had her in a draft as the female lead, instead of Black Widow. But once they got Scarlet Johansson, shows cut Janet.

I think Wright was only tied up with Ant-man, and Wasp was her own character.

 

[gabbo]

Harley had the advantage of being created outside the comics and pushed through the extremely popular and well regarded BTAS where she was more than window dressing, while also having an instantly recognizable voice/design. Then she was pulled into the comics/movies.

 

[IndoAssassin]

Jean Grey has a solo ongoing right now. Which is selling decent.

Storm is in the BP and the Crew which got cancelled due to low sales.

Ms Marvel has been declining in sales and is nearing the borderline sales of when Marvel cancels books.

Captain Marvel continues to be a dud in sales. With this latest relaunch below cancellation line by 2nd issue.

Moon Girl and DD has bad single issue sales but through the roof in TPB sales due to scholastic.

They are trying to push America Chavez but fans keep spouting SJW Marvel hate.

Spider-Woman, Scarlett Witch, Black Widow, Unstoppable Wasp, Silk solos all got cancelled due to low sales.

She Hulk solo is below cancellation line in sales.

Iron heart is still selling above cancellation line.

Jane Thor and All-New Wolverine are the only female characters sustaining healthy sales. And they are legacy characters.

Who is left that will garner enough sales to keep a title going.

 

[BruceCLea]

Because they aren't nearly as interesting.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

TBH, I think comic sales matter don't matter that much when we're talking about multimedia characters. Were the Guardians ever huge single issue or even trade paperback sellers before their film?


Like it's been pointed out, Harley isn't popular because of comic books

 

[Elaugaufein]

Jean Grey has a solo ongoing right now. Which is selling decent.

Storm is in the BP and the Crew which got cancelled due to low sales.

Ms Marvel has been declining in sales and is nearing the borderline sales of when Marvel cancels books.

Captain Marvel continues to be a dud in sales. With this latest relaunch below cancellation line by 2nd issue.

Moon Girl and DD has bad single issue sales but through the roof in TPB sales due to scholastic.

They are trying to push America Chavez but fans keep spouting SJW Marvel hate.

Spider-Woman, Scarlett Witch, Black Widow, Unstoppable Wasp, Silk solos all got cancelled due to low sales.

She Hulk solo is below cancellation line in sales.

Iron heart is still selling above cancellation line.

Jane Thor and All-New Wolverine are the only female characters sustaining healthy sales. And they are legacy characters.

Who is left that will garner enough sales to keep a title going.

Part of it is that Marvel is probably doing too many of those titles and cancelling to early as a result. DC seems willing to give these things considerably more time to build a following. Even if a character can hold a series it takes time for them to establish themselves and Marvel seems to cancel about every 12 issues these days. Even some of DCs failures manage a dedicated enough following for them to get the occasional relaunch, mini or team book. That and new launches need a consistent writer for at least the first couple of years to set things up properly and constant cancellation, events and relaunches are awful for that.

TBH, I think comic sales matter don't matter that much when we're talking about multimedia characters. Were the Guardians ever huge single issue or even trade paperback sellers before their film?


Like it's been pointed out, Harley isn't popular because of comic books

Comic book sales matter in that material comes from somewhere and it provides a kind of cultural short hand for who these people are. Most of the Guardians predate the Guardians book by a fair bit, though the MCU take is very different for most of them.

 

[Slayven]

Because they aren't nearly as interesting.

Like all of them?

 

[Platy]

Who is left that will garner enough sales to keep a title going.

How is Squirrel Girl doing ?

 

[Apathy]

To be fair, while Catwoman, WW, Supergirl are way more well know, I could probably name you more marvel female heroes than I could DC. I think that may be true for a lot of people.