ArkhamFantasy
Member
Why do reviewers keep giving them 9's and 10's?
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Why are Nintendo games uncopiable?
- Thread starter Kathian
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Why do reviewers keep giving them 9's and 10's?
Napalm_Frank
Member
Biggest problem with Zelda clones seems to be that they don't sell no matter how good they are.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
gotcha
I meant more in terms of Insomniac's progression. They start with Spyro, which is pretty clearly a 3D platformer in the vein of Mario 64. and then next move on to Ratchet. You can still see the roots of the platformer in there but it's shifted focus a lot.
It was just kinda to show that some other devs have taken their character platformer sand shifted more between games while Nintendo tends to stay pretty close to the basics. Not that there's anything wrong with either approach, just that you don't see many of the older devs besides Nintendo still working on that style of game because of it.
It's one of the most critically acclaimed series going, something very hard to do over 30 years and nearly 20-odd games. It's hard enough for a series to survive a generation jump, let alone have a series keep it's quality level up throughout the march from 8-bit to the present day.
They're very pretty boxes.
Terrifying. Reminds me of when Eurogamer gave one of the Uncharted games an 8.
Optimusdouche
Banned
I think the better question is why don't Nintendo-like games sell, anywhere but on Nintendo?
They used to make tons of platformers of every variety. Great ones. Kolonoa. Kolonoa 2. Remember them? Fantastic. Okami? As good as any Zelda I've played outside of Windwaker. Platformers used to be quite popular. The problem is no one really buys them.
They used to make tons of platformers of every variety. Great ones. Kolonoa. Kolonoa 2. Remember them? Fantastic. Okami? As good as any Zelda I've played outside of Windwaker. Platformers used to be quite popular. The problem is no one really buys them.
When the Wii was flying off shelves, people tried copying Wii Sports.
And the clones were fucking trash.
Nobody tried copying games like SMG, though.
Their gameplay over everything philosophy is probably it.
Drilbit777
Member
Okami was the closest thing we ever had to a Zelda esque title and no one bought it : (
I am Christina Aguilera
Member
Isn't this basically some combination of "Nintendo is philosophically inclined to -- and as developers have the rare financial independence to -- delay games until they achieve the desired level of serious polish"
Yacht Club just announced that Nintendo is exclusively publishing Shovel Knight in Japan, so someone at NCL must have thought so too!
I agree with Mario and Zelda. Though Alundra was a decent Zelda clone. Although WRPG games like Dark Souls and The Wither 3 are nothing like Zelda they still full that action RPG niche and are successful. Mario as a Platformer is in its own league however Rayman has done a good job to compete with 2D Mario but no developer bothers to make 3D Platformer like Mario only hybrid games like Ratchet which are not pure Platformers. Metroid has a so many decent clones especially the Castlevania series.
Sonic Lost World kinda tried.
Even when other companies were trying to make 3D platformers, very few of them could match the quality or have the broad appeal of a Mario game. I think a lot of folks take for granted how difficult it is to make a game as good as what Nintendo's best teams produce.
And if someone happens to, they'd better do something that distinguishes themselves in some significant way... otherwise, your game gets labeled a clone. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's hard to stand out if you primarily just copy. Poi is a good example of a game that I think is fun (I bought it when it hit Early Access), but instead of doing its own thing, it so blatantly rips off Mario that it's difficult to look past that while playing it.
And if someone happens to, they'd better do something that distinguishes themselves in some significant way... otherwise, your game gets labeled a clone. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's hard to stand out if you primarily just copy. Poi is a good example of a game that I think is fun (I bought it when it hit Early Access), but instead of doing its own thing, it so blatantly rips off Mario that it's difficult to look past that while playing it.
rottendevice
Member
I think it's good controls. If I remember, Miyamoto has long been a champion of good controls.
I can't think of another platformer that controls as well as Mario 64. Or an action game that feels quite like The Wind Waker.
They are the people who brought us Z-targeting.
I can't think of another platformer that controls as well as Mario 64. Or an action game that feels quite like The Wind Waker.
They are the people who brought us Z-targeting.
freethoughtbubble
Member
First bump. Shovel Knight is the shit.
deadscreensky
Member
Simple answer: Nintendo has very high quality developers.
People undervalue Nintendo's history. They have the longest continuous and longest total history in the industry, dating back to the 1970s. No one else in the industry has that pedigree. They aren't perfect. They have faults, some of them glaring. But as far as game design and development, they're tops.
People undervalue Nintendo's history. They have the longest continuous and longest total history in the industry, dating back to the 1970s. No one else in the industry has that pedigree. They aren't perfect. They have faults, some of them glaring. But as far as game design and development, they're tops.
Okami and darksiders feel like the only noteworthy efforts but both of them still pale in comparison when it comes to the dungeon/puzzle design of the zelda games.
Comparing Dark souls to Zelda is like trying to compare Portal to Halo so I don't understand why so many people do that unless the haven't ever played a Zelda game maybe.
Comparing Dark souls to Zelda is like trying to compare Portal to Halo so I don't understand why so many people do that unless the haven't ever played a Zelda game maybe.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Every Zelda I've ever played has bored me out of my goddamn mind, but I quite liked the first Darksiders, so.. Yeah.
Anyway, it's not that Nintendo are uncopiable, it's just that no one really bothers since platformers and Zelda clones aren't exactly something that would be flying off the PS4 and Xbone shelves.
That's very true. Those are definitely the consensus faves. Glad we agree on Rayman. And Klonoa. How could I forget one of my all-time faves? Klonoa 2 is even better.
They also have very high employee retention. Many of the devs who worked on those early NES, SNES or N64 game that some like so much are still around. Keeping with the same team for years you're going to get a lot of good stuff. Also those older employees sticking around can also pass on their knowledge to new employees.
Tsubasa Sakaguchi started as a character designer at Nintendo and his first role was character design on Twilight Princess. Now he's the character designer and Director of Splatoon thanks to years of learning from the older employees as teachers and guides. They're learning from some of the best creators in the field.
To be fair capcom praticaly sended Okami to die and Darksiders is from a pretty small studio with very few marketing budget ... and they marketed it as a god of war clone =P
Not sure why people are talking about zelda rarely being copied. It's copied all the time. Essentially it evolved into the assasins creed open world game. The best recent example of it is Rocksteadys batman series.
Let's take a look at Arkham City.
Batman starts in the city with a mission to find out what has happened to the world, and team up with a feisty and capable female.
He explores the world and gets a new utility belt upgrade/tool for every new building/region he goes into. He has to puzzle his way through buildings to get to the boss of said building, each of whom has an interesting new mechanic.
Eventually he solves all the puzzles and finds out gannon/the joker is behind everything.
They fight and the hero wins.
What sets Nintendo apart is they are incredible at building highly polished experiences. They are very good at what they do. Because of this they always feel handcrafted and unique
edit: 2 of Sonys best PS4 exclusives are zelda clones with a twist. Bloodbourne is zelda with gear levelling, and Infamous 2nd Son is a TPS Zelda
Let's take a look at Arkham City.
Batman starts in the city with a mission to find out what has happened to the world, and team up with a feisty and capable female.
He explores the world and gets a new utility belt upgrade/tool for every new building/region he goes into. He has to puzzle his way through buildings to get to the boss of said building, each of whom has an interesting new mechanic.
Eventually he solves all the puzzles and finds out gannon/the joker is behind everything.
They fight and the hero wins.
What sets Nintendo apart is they are incredible at building highly polished experiences. They are very good at what they do. Because of this they always feel handcrafted and unique
edit: 2 of Sonys best PS4 exclusives are zelda clones with a twist. Bloodbourne is zelda with gear levelling, and Infamous 2nd Son is a TPS Zelda
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Zelda is not popular because its an open world game, its popular because of its dungeon designs, and nobody even attempts to make levels like that.
Eh. I prefer LittleBigPlanet and Rayman over 2D Mario. I prefer Ratchet and Clank over 3D Mario, and look out for Yooka Laylee.
Team ICO is the Zelda killer, but Last Guardian set them back. SotC is better than any Zelda to date IMO. I have high expectations for last Guardian. No way I'm missing any Zelda game though. I just don't hold the series in the same high esteem as I did back when say OoT released.
Lots are doing 2D metroidvanias. Not any 3D that I can think of though besides Metroid Prime.
Fzero has been done.
Star Fox has been done.
Splatoon is my 2015 GOTY. Brilliant. Hope it gets copied.
I think the N64 era was their most amazing time. They were the industry leader and everyone followed. Wii was a casual fluke as WiiU sales are showing.
So have their games been copied? I would say yes, barring Splatoon and Metroid Prime. Nobody is uncopiable.
Team ICO is the Zelda killer, but Last Guardian set them back. SotC is better than any Zelda to date IMO. I have high expectations for last Guardian. No way I'm missing any Zelda game though. I just don't hold the series in the same high esteem as I did back when say OoT released.
Lots are doing 2D metroidvanias. Not any 3D that I can think of though besides Metroid Prime.
Fzero has been done.
Star Fox has been done.
Splatoon is my 2015 GOTY. Brilliant. Hope it gets copied.
I think the N64 era was their most amazing time. They were the industry leader and everyone followed. Wii was a casual fluke as WiiU sales are showing.
So have their games been copied? I would say yes, barring Splatoon and Metroid Prime. Nobody is uncopiable.
slade
Member
It's not that Nintendo games are not copiable but they sell mostly to Nintendo fans who don't want anything else in that type of genre. See the sales of other games in similar genres like Rayman or Okami. They don't sell near as much as a Mario or a Zelda despite being as good or maybe a little bit worse or maybe a little bit better. Point is, the people who buy Mario or Zelda won't buy these games because they are not Mario and Zelda and therefore third parties neglect these genres.
TheDinoman
Member
As someone who thinks Mario 64 is just a tad bit better than Banjo Kazooie (I love both games though), I'm under the opinion that this fine game here wiped the floor with Mario Kart 64.
JinjoUnchained
Member
One word: polish. It's the tiny environmental details, like insects swarming away from the fossilized remains of a would be explorer you rush by in Super Metroid. Kuribo's shoe. The way that the music subtly drops out and is replaced by animal noises and rushing water as you approach Zora's domain in OOT. Or the astronomer in Majora's Mask, whose temperament and locale hint at a deeper story that's never filled in.
Alfred Hitchcock called this stuff "playing the audience like a piano". A lot of developers don't take the time to put it in and, consequently, you can see the seams.
Alfred Hitchcock called this stuff "playing the audience like a piano". A lot of developers don't take the time to put it in and, consequently, you can see the seams.
Well who would copy them? And why?
You've got the big Western publishers who have franchises bigger than either and then you have the big Japanese publishers who, other than Capcom far as I know, have $100 million+ revenue generating mobile games.
Zelda and Mario were the games companies would have tried emulating back when they were the big pull in video games, as it is though, Western RPGs have overtaken Zelda and platformers have seen better days.
You will obviously get indies who are happy to try and craft their own homages to these series though of course, but they're not doing it totally in the name of money.
You've got the big Western publishers who have franchises bigger than either and then you have the big Japanese publishers who, other than Capcom far as I know, have $100 million+ revenue generating mobile games.
Zelda and Mario were the games companies would have tried emulating back when they were the big pull in video games, as it is though, Western RPGs have overtaken Zelda and platformers have seen better days.
You will obviously get indies who are happy to try and craft their own homages to these series though of course, but they're not doing it totally in the name of money.
Assasins creed 2 and Arkham City both have dungeon design.
In assasins creed they are optional.
In Arkham City they are everywhere. The museum is a dungeon, the police station, the foundry ect are all dungeons where you get a new tool to help traverse them.
You could also argue that uncharted is a simple linear version of zelda with easy puzzles
Spieler Eins
Member
I always found the open world moniker for Arkham City weird. Definitely closer to Zelda.
deletethis123
Banned
Well combat in Dark Souls is an evolution of the one in 3D Zeldas and Dark Souls feels close to the first Zelda (or a metroidvania game) with the way in which it encourages exploration.
Gotta love the gold. GOLD.
I'm glad they've actually been ditching the gold on some recent titles. They look so great in color. Hoping Zelda U will also not be gold.
lukeskymac
Member
That's funny, because as someone who had with little contact with Nintendo during my childhood, Mario characters and Mario game aesthetics are giant turnoffs for me.
omgwtfbentime
Member
The problem is the best Nintendo games tend to reinvent themselves and overhaul their systems so suddenly the "new hotness" feels a little less exciting. Sony spent the PS2 trying to top 64/Sunshine (and successfully did!) only for Nintendo go roll out galaxy in response. Sega made a couple great Kart racers... Only to have nintendo drop Mario Kart 8 and totally demolish any beliefs that Mario Kart might forgive it's reign of dominating the genre. Hell Zelda practically reinvents itself with almost every entry... Sometimes not always for the best but it's a bold move regardless and one that keeps zelda in gamers minds. Nintendo games feel different because they seldom if ever follow trends... Whether that's a good thing or not is up for debate but it certainly gives their games a different feel.
royox
Member
Deadpool_X
Banned
That secret Zelda sauce.
To be honest, I see Metroid and Castlevania as two different types and two different standards. And every time someone makes a "Metroidvania" they're just making one or the other.
The success of these franchises isn't solely based on the formula though. Having the formula in your game doesn't instantly make it interesting. If anything the formula is the most basic concept part of the game.
Game feel
Sound and music design
Dungeons and puzzle design
World, character and npc design
Power ups and abilities
Boss and enemy encounters
As a new ip you also struggle with being dismissed as an inferior clone or if you're too different then dismissed for being... Different.
It isn't easy. Simple concepts can be difficult to execute.
I also think that for the casual crowd, runners have replaced 2d platformer due to accessibility and ease of pick-up and play.
Game feel
Sound and music design
Dungeons and puzzle design
World, character and npc design
Power ups and abilities
Boss and enemy encounters
As a new ip you also struggle with being dismissed as an inferior clone or if you're too different then dismissed for being... Different.
It isn't easy. Simple concepts can be difficult to execute.
I also think that for the casual crowd, runners have replaced 2d platformer due to accessibility and ease of pick-up and play.
Of course it took two posts for people to bring Dark Souls, I barely see anything in common...
Sure, but where're the new CTRs and Zeldas?
I agree, Star Fox Adventures is a good game, just a terrible Star Fox game.
Sure, but where're the new CTRs and Zeldas?
I agree, Star Fox Adventures is a good game, just a terrible Star Fox game.
While Nintendo is known for their historic, quality franchises, they really fail to innovate or create new IP. To me Sony picked up that torch long ago. Granted they don't have the success - or often critical acclaim - that Nintendo still does. But Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, Jak and Daxter, LittleBigPlanet, Tearaway, and Puppeteer all feel like natural extensions of the Nintendo mantra. I'd even say many of them trump the stuff Nintendo is doing, but of course that's just an opinion. Then there are countless other games, like Rayman and a ton of indies who can boldly state their own case. In my eyes, Nintendo is very much copyable, and often eclipsed.
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