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Why are people OK with 1080p/30fps, but not 720p/60fps?

Cizeta-Moroder said:
It wasn't an abomination in 2005. 1080p will be an abomination too, one day. 30fps on the other hand, is a timeless abomination.
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Honestly, I don't get this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an increase in resolution ceases to matter once you have decided that you are not going above a certain television size. Even if there is an improvement to image quality, the difference of going from 1080p to a higher resolution (or even from 720p to 1080p) would be negligible in a lot of TV sets.

Isn't it said that the difference between 720p and 1080p hardly matters unless you have a TV of 50 inches or more? Some of us never even intend to get anything bigger than that. Framerate, on the other hand, is noticeable in any and all of the TVs that we use today. Hugely so.
 
velociraptor said:
No it won't.

720p never looked picture perfect. On the other hand, 1080p does.
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LOL, I'd like you to see Final Fantasy XIV at 1080p, then.

Aliased, shimmering, jagged mess.

I've spent more time trying to clean up the IQ and get a good frame rate than I have actually grinding out mobs.
 
I want my games to play flawlessly give me 720p60 over 1080p30. I have a 1080p plasma. My current sub 720P gen games looks damn good on my TV.

Maybe we need to start posting pics of our current games on our displays.
 
kinggroin said:
I completely disagree. There are games that are text heavy or are mostly static images that have nearly zero significant animation in them that benefit more from clarity then 60 frames per second. Think of old school point and click adventure games that are 2 d hand drawn. what benefit would you get from 60 frames per second over resolution when the animations drawn for the character don't even exceed 24 frames per second?
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We barely get any 2D sprite-based games nowadays, though. Those can stick to a lower framerate. For everything else, I'll always take 60; again, even for games that don't require a lot of input from the player's part.

To me, the 60fps are not just about the better, more precise input and gameplay (although, suffice to say, that matters a whole fucking lot), but also about the feel of the game when merely looking at it. Seeing something move so smoothly, as opposed to 30fps, gives the game a much more solid feel, and it's just a pleasure to look at, even when you are not holding the controller.
 
Put me down for 1080p. I have a large TV and 720 looks like crap. I honestly can't tell the difference between 30, 60, or even 24 that the movies I watch are shown at. I play about 70% PC so I can usually do pretty well with both.

Of course I don't really play shooters, so there's that.
 
is there any reason to believe the 720p games wont have any AA?

From what I have tried on my PC. At the distance I sit from the TV (42") 720p with AA looks fine and is very similar to 1080p Without AA and both look great to me. 720p without AA is a little jaggy though (although I would argue still acceptable enough that I would forget about it soon enough when playing).

So if they even have 2x AA I will be fine with 720 if it means better frame rates. I personally thought frame rates ruined a lot of games for me in the later part of my Xbox's life to the point I got rid of it. BF3 had 2 big issues for me. Crappy frame rate (about 20-25 most of the time I think) and boring maps.

The fact that my PS4's BF4 will be 60 FPS is all I need to know. 720 p will be fine regardless of AA really. Plus I imagine I will be using remote play a fair bit anyway so it wont really matter.
 
velociraptor said:
No it won't.

720p never looked picture perfect. On the other hand, 1080p does.

If 30FPS is a timeless abomination then I would like to know how you survived this generation. Almost all games were 'targeted' to run at that framerate.

60FPS would be nice but if we're going to get a blurry mess as a result.

I think Wipeout HD had an excellent solution. 1920x1080 with a dynamic framebuffer (drops to 1280x1080 to maintain 60FPS). Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is another solution. 1280x1080, 2xMSAA, 60FPS. Prologue had excellent IQ, although this took a severe hit when QAA was implemented in the final product (GT5).

720p is unacceptable.
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You sound incredibly ignorant.


I take it you've never owned a 720 native set or phone?

It's less about absolute resolution than it is about size/distance/native res and there are plenty of scenarios I could put you in where 720p looks amazing.

Of course, as screens get bigger, we naturally want to maintain a high dpi so, resolutions make a jump alongside. But make no mistake, 1080p too, isn't some holy grail resolution and will probably be looked at the same way you see 720p one day.

And I can understand the 30fps = abomination thing, IF he is a PC gamer. We usually don't have to accept one or the other, and if all things are equal, most will choose 60fps at the given NATIVE resolution (with maybe some down sampled goodness to boot).

But this seemingly being a console focused discussion, expectations have to be tempered. Everytime. As such, depending on the game, you can't expect to have both 1080p AND 60fps without serious visual compromises.
 
Current gen can handle 720p/60fps so why would anyone want the next gen to remain the same? Both consoles can easily handle a 1080p output and just like current gen (and all gens really), going for 60fps is a choice and requires cut backs.
 
kinggroin said:
You sound incredibly ignorant.


I take it you've never owned a 720 native set or phone?

It's less about absolute resolution than it is about size/distance/native res and there are plenty of scenarios I could put you in where 720p looks amazing.

Of course, as screens get bigger, we naturally want to maintain a high dpi so, resolutions make a jump alongside. But make no mistake, 1080p too, isn't some holy grail resolution and will probably be looked at the same way you see 720p one day.

And I can understand the 30fps = abomination thing, IF he is a PC gamer. We usually don't have to accept one or the other, and if all things are equal, most will choose 60fps at the given NATIVE resolution (with maybe some down sampled goodness to boot).

But this seemingly being a console focused discussion, expectations have to be tempered. Everytime. As such, depending on the game, you can't expect to have both 1080p AND 60fps without serious visual compromises.
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No. I think you're being quite ignorant here. 720p, on a 1080p display, represents a soft blurry jaggy mess. On plasma TVs the effect is less pronounced. They appear to scale 720p content extremely well. However, on LCD/LED sets, the difference is obvious as day and night. 30FPS is not an abomination. It is perfectly playable. I have even locked Dark Souls at 30FPS (versus 60) because the latter feels weird as hell. While I would prefer to play every game at 60FPS, I would not sacrifice 1080p to reach that goal. 720p works well for games which have basic geometry. But it still does not hold a candle to 1080p gaming.

Native resolution is king.
 
Because 1080p vs 720p is more noticeable than 30vs60 fps for me.

Even on fast paced games (eg FPS etc) the slight difference between 30fps and 60fps is a minor issue compared to the idiot who just 'leeroy jenkins' their way into the kill box.
 
Because my 1080 TV & monitor want nothing to do with 720.
Moreover, I've been playing 1080 on my PC for the entire previous console generation... its about time they catch up. sacrifice effects if you need to, but get the damn game running at true 1080. Image quality is King.
 
antitrop said:
Almost every game benefits from being rendered at 4K, what's your point?
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The trade off isn't worth it. What kind of graphical bump are you going to get from that resolution? Unless you are packing some Titans, your game will run at 5FPS. Furthermore, we don't have 4k displays. But I imagine most of us do have 1080p sets.
 
Pazuzu9 said:
There are so many efficient AA solutions now, I would be very surprised if any One/PS4 game ships with no AA.
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Bar a few launch games where stuff like that is sometimes left out, I would say your right. In which case I am pretty sure most people will be fine with 720p with AA and couldn't tell the difference between that and 1080p unless maybe put side by side or something.

However that depends on what the average size TV is these days. If you have about a 40" TV and sit 2-3 meters away, I would doubt its noticeable at all.

If you are rocking a 60" TV and sit a similar distance then it might start becoming apparent. But I have never tried such a thing.
 
I don't really play many games which are hard enough or competitive enough to require 60fps on consoles. Consequently I prefer graphics over it.
 
velociraptor said:
No. I think you're being quite ignorant here. 720p, on a 1080p display, represents a soft blurry jaggy mess. On plasma TVs the effect is less pronounced. They appear to scale 720p content extremely well. However, on LCD/LED sets, the difference is obvious as day and night. 30FPS is not an abomination. It is perfectly playable. I have even locked Dark Souls at 30FPS (versus 60) because the latter feels weird as hell. While I would prefer to play every game at 60FPS, I would not sacrifice 1080p to reach that goal. 720p works well for games which have basic geometry. But it still does not hold a candle to 1080p gaming.

Native resolution is king.
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So you've not given me the respect to at least read a single line past, "ignorant"?

I'm fucking done here. Feels like I'm talking to the Sith rather than rational human beings.
 
SMZC said:
Honestly, I don't get this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an increase in resolution ceases to matter once you have decided that you are not going above a certain television size. Even if there is an improvement to image quality, the difference of going from 1080p to a higher resolution (or even from 720p to 1080p) would be negligible in a lot of TV sets.

Isn't it said that the difference between 720p and 1080p hardly matters unless you have a TV of 50 inches or more? Some of us never even intend to get anything bigger than that. Framerate, on the other hand, is noticeable in any and all of the TVs that we use today. Hugely so.
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I don't like to talk television sizes. It requires viewing distances be taken into consideration.
It's really a matter of "how many pixels do I need to cover x% of my field of view for it to look naturally sharp?" Isn't the resolution of human vision supposed to be measured in degrees anyway?
If we want to go surround displays/oculus rift, 1080p is far from enough.
 
OmegaTreeFish said:
In which case I am pretty sure most people will be fine with 720p with AA and couldn't tell the difference between that and 1080p unless maybe put side by side or something.
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For me it's immediately noticeable because the XMB is rendered at 1080p until you open a game.

Then it's 720p blurriness.

I'm certain if the XMB was also rendered at 720p I would care less; but that's just how the cookie crumbles.

M°°nblade;78523381 said:
Developers should give gamers the option from the menu to select either 'framerate mode' or 'resolution mode'.

Would solve all of these threads. :P
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Or you know. Killzone SF MP.
Now if only they could optimise the single player too...
 
Y2Kev said:
Play gta4 ps3 on a 1080p tv. Your eyes will burn!
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GTA4 does two things really badly - framerate AND resolution. The perils of both worlds.

If developers would like to target 60FPS, then I personally believe the minimum resolution of the game should be 1280x1080 (like Wipeout HD and Gran Turismo 5 Prologue).
 
M°°nblade;78523381 said:
Developers should give gamers the option from the menu to select either 'framerate mode' or 'resolution mode'.

Would solve all of these threads. :P
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Ha, definitely. That's a good solution, but I don't know how much extra work that would entail for the developers.
 
Image quality is very important in here. That's why we have some PC fans in here.

They won't mind to play 2K or 4K if only mere low framerate.
 
I'd prefer 720p/60fps over 1080p any day. I just love the fluidity of the animations in a 60 fps game. If these devs can pull off 1080/60fps though I'd be stoked.
 
First of all, I'm not fine with 1080p and 30fps either, especially in certain genres.

leng jai said:
720p without AA looks woeful by today's standards.
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Basically. 720p is a pretty laughable resolution these days. The bad IQ makes 3D games shooting for realism look like shit.

1280x720 is reserved for Sudoku or other little time wasters in a window in the corner of my monitor.
 
Spanner in the works:
Ignoring IQ for a moment*, some games benefit much more from better resolution than they do better framerate. Take the Arma series (or military simulation in general) - you value the ability to spot targets at distance more than you do the ability to have split-second twitch reactions.

*So, no, your favourite console AAA game doesn't fit this argument.

But in the vast majority of experiences, framerate is much more fundamentally important to gameplay than resolution.
 
Applecot said:
For me it's immediately noticeable because the XMB is rendered at 1080p until you open a game.

Then it's 720p blurriness.

I'm certain if the XMB was also rendered at 720p I would care less; but that's just how the cookie crumbles.



Or you know. Killzone SF MP.
Now if only they could optimise the single player too...
Click to expand...

I would say, however, that most people don't even notice.

I would prob notice and then get used to it after a few mins and not care while some people are very sensitive to such things. However most prob arn't at all.

There seem to be people who cant tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. That is way more noticable to me than 720p and 1080p.

But again, screen size, viewing distance, players eyesight all become a factor in this.
 
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