-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Why are there so few 'characters' in the Western video game industry compared to the Japanese one?
- Thread starter Bakkus
- Start date
mansoor1980
Gold Member
works at SSM studios so definitely a top character
Last edited:
MvCSpiderman
Banned
Font know where this PC stuff is coming from, just proves you have no knowledge of game systems.
Fare thee well
Neophyte
This feels like a frame-of-reference fallacy. Someone here listed 20-some Japanese names of famous developers. I only recognized two. However I could probably mention a bunch of names that I hold dear and I'd bet they might not have even heard of the devs I list.
Hell as a classical musician who seems to like dead old Russian composers, I bet people here wouldn't even know any of their names. And they were far more accomplished than most musicians today.
Hell as a classical musician who seems to like dead old Russian composers, I bet people here wouldn't even know any of their names. And they were far more accomplished than most musicians today.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Well.....that seems to be a you problem then.
The list is literally some of the biggest pioneers in all of gaming, west or otherwise. We are talking about people that literally created genres, engines, gaming languages etc. You not knowing about them doesn't mean we have few characters, it simply means you "don't know much" about them yourself.
Does not mean they do not exist.
Bakkus
Member
Yeah, but what many people seemed to have missed was that I was more referring to personality, like for example movie directors Tarantino and Kubrick are/were huge vocal weirdos who made controversial statements or were perfectionists in their craft, like for example Suda51, Kamiya, and Kojima are. This thread kind of went in directions I never intended...
Last edited:
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
That has more to do with the fact in west movie industry is bigger while in Japan, Video games and Anime industry is bigger.
In west you get those big personalities from movie industry rather than video game. It just how it is.
Last edited:
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Ok, but if you don't know who those developers are, you are also going to be unaware of many statements they've made.... The people listed by
MiguelItUp
have made many statements about the industry. Perfectionist? Theses fucking people created entire GENRES in gaming. So I agree with many here that simply see this as you not knowing about many developers. When you say something like "I don't know much about" it stopped being about there being um "so few characters" and more like "i don't know much about those characters".
Sir....that is a you problem. That has nothing to do with them not existing, it has to do with "I don't know much about" them.
Virt McPolygon
Banned
I used to work in the industry. Actually on one of the games you listed. The series has probably the best writing, characters and lore within the past decade because the writers cared about subtlety. Shit, most of the interesting text was implied and found in item descriptions. Not everything has to be spelled out to the player like a YA novel or Hollywood movie.
Not gonna argue either, so I'm out.
Last edited:
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Agreed. I like those games and even I feel the writing is BS and or non-existent in em. I can't say that no one cares, but MOST don't care.
I'm sure some people do care, shit we can argue someone cares about the writing in Tetris or that Need For Speed game with a story mode lol Doesn't mean its good or relevant or anything like that.
The souls stuff is so fucking vague its not even funny, I'm sorry but that shit barely counts as a story. I love the series and Demon Souls and Bloodborne are some of my favorite games of all time, but the story is nothing but vague lore stuff, you have to really, really reach to even say a "story" exist in all of that, let alone make it sound like its story is anything meaningful. If you have to even have a whole ass Youtube channel devoted to even trying to EXPLAIN it, its cause it wasn't done enough in the game for any player to even care or understand it. To me, this is not good writing. Oh you needed to fucking go somewhere else to have it explained to you? Does that sound like they conveyed it correctly to you? You can find any fucking community of fanatics that will reach to make it sound like any damn story is this epic timeless classic or some shit, doesn't make it so....
None listed even REMOTELY have the "best writing" in gaming. I like all those games, but to really be arguing any of them have good writing let alone THE BEST is laughable. We in some trouble in gaming if that shit is really what we are saying is the best. Nothing is wrong with those games either, but they are simply not games that have good writing. Some of that shit is borderline non-existent.
Nah, they cared about saving money.
Look....when EA comes out with game with um "lore" packed in it and the story barely exist, keep thinking that a publisher really, really gives a shit when they start doing that and watch people from EA be like "its good bro cause look how um Subtle it is, very little voice acting cause of um subtlety, 2 page script cause.....subtlety"
I love the souls series, but that shit isn't even in my top 100 favorite STORIES in a game.
That isn't a thing one says in favor of a game most times, its usually stated when the story is shit and the best part is those item descriptions. ie The story was shit, barely any voice acting, barely any acting at all, plot doesn't exist, my god most of the interesting text was implied and found in item descriptions...... =)
Sounds like they should have fucken written a book instead if thats what they want. When in a medium, you must still fucking tell a story USING THE TOOLS OF THAT MEDIUM, thats like in a FILM saying some shit like "most of the best stuff is implied and found in the newspaper in this scene here, or job application form is the best part of the movie as you see he is looking for a job"
Or, or....fucking SHOW HIM LOOKING FOR A FUCKING JOB, its a FILM, you are to FILM him doing that shit.
Want to write it all out? Ok....write a book, that makes more sense for such a thing. Its not even say I dislike how that is done, simply that such a thing shouldn't be in place of a actual story and should never even be really used as an example of gamings greatest stories. Look at Half Life 2, it uses the animations, faces, the world etc to tell a story on TOP of a real script, voice acting etc It doesn't just use 1 feature to death to try to tell a story.
killatopak
Gold Member
Character Action, Platformers, Fighting Games, Souls-like, Hunting games, Rhythm games, Bullet Hell, and probably more I’m not remembering right now.
I doubt you can say the west is better in those genres.
Vaelka
Member
I think that it's because of the corporate nature of America in contrast to Japan.
In Japan you obviously have suits behind the scenes, but generally speaking creators are still allowed more freedom to be individuals but are also expected to take responsibility if they mess up.
While in America the creators are treated like a part of the company and an extension of it, so if they do or say something bad it's as if the company does it so they extend more control over them and what they say and do.
It's probably pretty hard to be a '' character '' too in the current online climate in the US, the Japanese can kinda get away with more because people just look at it as '' the Japanese being the Japanese ''.
That's why for example while people still bitch and moan about female characters not dressing or behaving like nuns in Japanese games, they do it to a MUCH lesser extent thant they do with Western devs.
Because it's just viewed as a '' Japanese thing '' so it's more expected, while with the West people love to try and control everything and bully people around.
I mean with Oda for example I think if a Western dev was that quirky people would kinda just purely find it cringe, but because he's Japanese people accept him being weird more and his Engrish plays a part of it too.
And while Western devs do get away with demeaning people online, they only get away with it when it's '' politically correct '' and safe.
When there's that context there, but when that context isn't there I don't think that they do.
So if they acted more like Harada and basically just acted like a douche he'd probably get a stern talking to from someone above him in the West because in US corporate culture that'd be seen as if it's the company doing it.
I mean this is why you so often see in devs bios that '' my views don't reflect the company ''.
To some extent I do think that it does, I mean there's a limit where maybe hiring someone who is just actually hateful towards fans isn't a good idea and does reflect negatively on the company.
But I also think it's kinda moronic to think that everything they say and do is a reflection of the company.
But yeah it kinda says a lot that like Ed Boon and Cory Barlog are like two of the big ones, because they're insanely boring as people.
Cory just has this overly wholesome persona that almost comes across as fake at times, it's like wholesome to a creepy extreme.
Or compare Blizzcon to the FFXIV Fan Fest, in the fan fest the devs just goof around and don't just read scripts.
But at Blizzcon everything is super ultra controlled and when the devs diverge away from the script you get things like '' don't you guys have phones ''.
Video games basically just became really big and became part of mainstream corporate America, and you can't be yourself at that point.
Actors are not actually being themselves either at events and in interviews, it's completely controlled and artificial and they receive media training for it. It's all fake, video games just became part of that culture too.
In Japan you obviously have suits behind the scenes, but generally speaking creators are still allowed more freedom to be individuals but are also expected to take responsibility if they mess up.
While in America the creators are treated like a part of the company and an extension of it, so if they do or say something bad it's as if the company does it so they extend more control over them and what they say and do.
It's probably pretty hard to be a '' character '' too in the current online climate in the US, the Japanese can kinda get away with more because people just look at it as '' the Japanese being the Japanese ''.
That's why for example while people still bitch and moan about female characters not dressing or behaving like nuns in Japanese games, they do it to a MUCH lesser extent thant they do with Western devs.
Because it's just viewed as a '' Japanese thing '' so it's more expected, while with the West people love to try and control everything and bully people around.
I mean with Oda for example I think if a Western dev was that quirky people would kinda just purely find it cringe, but because he's Japanese people accept him being weird more and his Engrish plays a part of it too.
And while Western devs do get away with demeaning people online, they only get away with it when it's '' politically correct '' and safe.
When there's that context there, but when that context isn't there I don't think that they do.
So if they acted more like Harada and basically just acted like a douche he'd probably get a stern talking to from someone above him in the West because in US corporate culture that'd be seen as if it's the company doing it.
I mean this is why you so often see in devs bios that '' my views don't reflect the company ''.
To some extent I do think that it does, I mean there's a limit where maybe hiring someone who is just actually hateful towards fans isn't a good idea and does reflect negatively on the company.
But I also think it's kinda moronic to think that everything they say and do is a reflection of the company.
But yeah it kinda says a lot that like Ed Boon and Cory Barlog are like two of the big ones, because they're insanely boring as people.
Cory just has this overly wholesome persona that almost comes across as fake at times, it's like wholesome to a creepy extreme.
Or compare Blizzcon to the FFXIV Fan Fest, in the fan fest the devs just goof around and don't just read scripts.
But at Blizzcon everything is super ultra controlled and when the devs diverge away from the script you get things like '' don't you guys have phones ''.
Video games basically just became really big and became part of mainstream corporate America, and you can't be yourself at that point.
Actors are not actually being themselves either at events and in interviews, it's completely controlled and artificial and they receive media training for it. It's all fake, video games just became part of that culture too.
Last edited:
LazyParrot
Member
Yeah, but that's my point. You can say it sucks all day long, but you can't say people don't care, which is what you did.
The whole "I'm sure some people care" thing doesn't fly either when the number of views on the story videos made by a single Youtuber is higher than the total number of copies sold across the entire series. That shit ain't happening for Tetris or Need For Speed. I'm pretty sure it isn't even happening for Mario. Lots of people who play these games do care about the story. Hell, lot's of people who don't play them apparently do, too. There's just no arguing against that.
Last edited:
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
My post stated " but MOST don't care." I never said shit about "people don't care" as in some generation or something.
Stop man...
Yea...that doesn't really help your point, it shows that such a thing doesn't even move units for that series, as in its not that great if folks would rather just have someone tell them lore shit on Youtube then play the game.
Sure bud, but I don't believe MOST really care about that shit and I like the series. The story is just non-existent in those things, you need to reach hard as fuck to even pretend it makes sense or some deep meaningful thing lol
LazyParrot
Member
Your original post stated "Gamers couldn't care less about the story in any of those games." No most in there.
You're bringing quality into this again. I've said it twice before, but I guess I'll have to say it again: this is not about whether the story or the way it is told is good or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. That's something each player has to decide from themselves. This is about whether or not people care about it.
If, as you claim, people watch these videos because the story in the actual game is too confusing for them, then that still shows they care. People generally don't spend hours watching something they don't have any interest in. Similarly, if, as you say, people would rather watch these videos than actually play the game, then that would at best prove that the way the story is told in the game itself is bad, not that people aren't interested in it. And that's assuming the reason these people chose Youtube over playing the game is related to the story in the first place, which doesn't have to be the case.
You're free to believe whatever you want, of course. It helps to at least have some evidence to back it up, though.
Last edited:
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
My original post? The fuck are you talking about? This is where we have to put you on ignore man, you can't even put the effort to properly read a post before replying.
Sooooo here is the orignal post and the user that made that comment. Please read the post thoroughly man, shit I even told you my comment wasn't about some generalization that simply imho MAJOIRTY don't care about it, never said shit about all of em or anything like that, didn't you think it was weird that I made that comment? Did you not think..."hmmm maybe I should read the comment again" before posting?
Whats so sad about this, is even my fucking comment replying to them states I don't mean all or something.
" I can't say that no one cares, but MOST don't care." smh. You could have just read the entire post, not sure if you are just rage posting and don't see who said what or triggered or who knows lol
Because it needs to be factored, its relevant to what is being stated. If I believe most gamers don't really care for the story in such titles, then yes...I need to bring up quality as a reason. I like those games and even I think the stories in them are shit, but I'm playing for the gameplay alone. I'm sorry but I'm not buying any Souls game for the "story" lol Every game listed in that comment I don't buy based on story, they are just not that great, but I think most are not really buying for those reasons too as they are just not deep story type games where that is the main focus, as in the title will sink or swim based on the "story".
Oh it most definitely is. I don't even get the point of this if you are not mad quality is being factored and talked about, why the fuck did you think I was making that comment about MOST gamers not caring about them in those titles in general? The quality of them is poor, no different then Need For Speed or Battlefield single player etc Does this mean I hate games with stories? No, simply means I like games that actually have good stories and I like games that have great gameplay.
Sometimes both can't be found in a game and thats ok, but buddy....I do not buy that most are buying some of those IP for story, as I buy those series myself and those stories are laughably bad and afterthoughts.
Have a good one =)
Last edited:
LazyParrot
Member
You got me there. I got the two of you confused and that's 100% on me. You're right, I was wrong.
I think you're oversimplifying things a bit here by equating buying a game because of the story with caring about the story. They're not the same. The former necessarily entails the latter, but not vice versa.
It's probably true that most people don't buy Souls games for the story, and I certainly never claimed they did. I mean, I don't buy those games for the story either, but I still care about it and appreciate the way it is told. I'd imagine it's like that for most people, otherwise those lore videos wouldn't get as many views as they do. If people really didn't care they wouldn't even bother looking this stuff up.
Spidey Fan
Banned
They suck at exploration. Fighting games, while great at it, is not the same level as mortal combat. That thing is brutal. It might not be good in term of virtua fighter, but in term of brutality, that game is number 1. Shooter game is western. Agree with you on platform. I have yet to see a Mario like experience game. In term of mmo, wester games get in to the point. while its repetitive in nature, The eastern side sucks at making it interesting.
While in your list they might dominate, there other list western dominate. Exploration (No man sky), RPG (The witcher 3, skyrim), Shooter (battlefield, HALO, Call of duty), Racing (Forza, Need for speed, While GT is good, its not at the level of forza horizon series or need for speed). Sports,.
killatopak
Gold Member
Sales isn’t a barometer of quality. If sales are, then I can just bring up Smash.
Besides MK, what else? I can easily name a dozen fighting games from the east that are very relevant.
True, this I can agree with. Though it’s not as clear cut as it used to be. Games like FFXIV and Black Desert are up there at top 10 MMOs. Aside from Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online, most of the western MMOs are stuck at early 2000s MMO like Runescape.
If I’m just gonna name an MMO juggernaut then Korea actually takes the cake. Not only do they pump out MMOs yearly, they’re also pretty big in the Asian market which largely gets ignored by Western media.
Last edited: