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Why Devil May Cry 3 Might Be the Best Paced Action Game of All Time

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Dahbomb put together this fantastic write-up and analysis of DMC3's pacing, and I think it's important information to share and can foster interesting discussion.

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This is really more of a critique/analysis of DMC3's pacing rather than me trying to convince the world that DMC3 is the best paced action game of all time (the title is just bait). Of course this is a very subjective opinion and many people will bring up RE4 and Uncharted 2 as great examples of action games with phenomenal pacing. Sure enough those games do have an excellent sense of pacing for an action game but I want to focus my attention on just DMC3 at the moment.

Please note that this is not an analysis of the overall design of DMC3 as a video game, I am just focusing on a very small aspect of the game. There are many things that DMC3 does extremely well that are worth discussing but this is not the time nor place for that.

First of all let's get it out of the way for those who don't know what the hell I am talking about:

What is Devil May Cry 3?
DMC3 is the 3rd installment in the action game series Devil May Cry. While it is the 3rd game in the series, chronologically it is the first game in the series. By most account it is an acclaimed and revered action game especially the Special Edition which fixes some of the problems the original had (though for the sake of this analysis I will be using the vanilla version's encounter layout). It can be said that the stylish action genre started with this game rather than DMC1 because of its emphasis on just that... stylish combat above all else. Certainly since the launch of this game, more and more action games have started to have a robust combo system with more emphasis on aerial combat than before. DMC3 is also known for being one of the first action games to introduce motion capture in the cutscenes to push the idea of action not only in game play but in game cinematics as well.

What is pacing? There is a lot of confusion on what pacing actually means when we are talking about pacing in a movie/game/TV series etc. especially in the action genre. When people think pacing they think something that is moving constantly when it's more similar to the word "tempo" as it is used in music. That is to say that the tempo of something changes in a very particular fashion as conducted by the director that evokes a certain emotion.

The general accepted pacing of an action sequence is one where something swells, peaks then subsides. Think of any good action move you know of like a sword swing. It starts up slow, builds up gradually with momentum and then slows down after the initial "hit" which is the recovery. In fighting game terms, these are start up (action swelling), active (peak) and recovery (action subsiding) frames of a move. In the broad sense, a game campaign follows this pattern across its major pivotal points or acts. This pattern is observed multiple times over the coarse of a game, so much so that you can actually graph out the tempo and it would look like a bunch of peaks and valleys.

However, these peaks and valleys are not equal to each other in terms of height and their location on the graph. Usually the first instance of this peak is one of the highest peaks in a game which is the opening of the game. This is why so many action games start off with a bang then slow down after the initial burst of action. It's not until much later that the level of action matches this peak again. After that peak is attained again, if the game has excellent pacing then every major peak after that will reach higher and higher until the final peak of the game which is the climax followed by a giant valley or the resolution.

Now one might come in and say "well why not have a game where the whole game is just balls to the wall action from start to finish"? To that I say... when you are exercising do you sprint at your maximum possible speed for 2 miles? Unless you are super human, you don't do that because it burns you out very fast and you run out of steam quick. A similar thing happens when you try to just bombard the player with action sequences after action sequences in an action game. They get burnt out by the action scenes and after a while the game starts to lose its appeal and even becomes repetitive. Mind you, almost every game is repetitive by nature.. what makes the repetition different among games is how the action sequences are staged and paced. There NEEDS to be down time in between the major action sequences so that players are given time to digest the previous sequence and prep themselves mentally and physically for the next one. Just like a move that looks static in animation looks weak when it's just a fast swing without a proper build up... an action sequence can feel flat when it's jumbled with a previous similarly paced action sequence.

So you are probably wonder what this mythical action graph looks like. Well here it is.

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Many of the people reading this have probably seen this before somewhere (or something similar to it). That's probably a perfectly representation of a well paced action game IMO. Starts off strong, eases off then slowly keeps building with each action sequence until the final pay off which is the climax.

Now to kick start my analysis of DMC3's pacing, I will plot out the major points of DMC3's campaign on a graph and where I feel they are situated on the graph in terms of intensity. Obviously SPOILER WARNING from here out:

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Excuse my crude drawings here, I am not as artistically inclined as other people! I have labelled all the major points in the game and where they roughly lie on the graph based on intensity. Of course this is all subjective and some big battles may not appear as grand to others as they are meant to be. But some very obvious patterns are developed in this campaign, very consistently in fact and then changed up slightly near the end to keep the player on edge at the home stretch (more on that later.


Prologue - Mission#1 - Mission#2

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The prologue cutscene sets the tone of the story in DMC3. There is a major action scene being played out here that foreshadows what will happen later on in the game. The voice actor sets up the lore of the series immediately.

Prologues continue on with present day with the first scene. The first scene sets up the story and then BAM.. the main character is thrusted into an action sequence and the game is off to a flying start.

There are many things I could say about the reasoning behind the first level. It's a very small, exclusively combat area but it's a necessary one. It makes it clear to the player that this is in fact an action game... there's no running from the enemies and you can't progress until you have killed the enemies. You have to learn how to fight immediately while being prompted with some tutorial messages to make sure you are not completely lost in the action.

After beating mission #1 you are thrusted into yet another action only mission where the action is more intense than before. More enemies spawn with more types and it caps off with a boss fight (which isn't really a boss fight it's a sub boss).

This is the first intensity peak of the game as you are thrust into the action capping off with a pseudo boss fight. It's a very adapt or die type situation here and really makes it clear to you that you are playing an action game.


Mission#3 - Cerberus

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The game slows down a bit by having you go through an actual level with escape points against the next group of enemies followed by your first actual non combat area. After that there's a mandatory combat encounter with new enemy types and then soon after that you fight off against your first true boss.

The intensity level is much higher than the first psuedo boss. Cerberus is harder, more ferocious and you need to use more of your arsenal to take it down. It's one of the first skill checks in the game.

Some would argue that the whole mission#1 to mission#3 is one whole action sequence with Cerberus being the first peak of the game. I don't really disagree with that and that is certainly another way to look at it. Nevertheless these first missions delivered the player with relentless action and now is probably the time where the game needs to provide the player with a breather.


Mission#4 and Gigapede

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This is the first instance of the action slowing down in the game for a relatively long period of time. The intensity drops down dramatically here but it's actually a very good thing. From here the area expands greatly with multiple rooms to explore and it's not immediately obvious where to go. The level design of this next area is actually quite good and you really need to pay attention as to where you are going. There are a few combat zones here but nothing is at the level seen before.

After some exploring and some key acquisitions you make your way to the final boss of this mission which is an easy boss fight by most account. Straight forward pattern based boss that once you figure out the gimmick, it is a relatively simple fight. This boss is what I like to call a "confidence builder". People usually say that DMC3 has an uneven difficulty curve because it starts out so hard then gets easy then hard again... well my argument is that this is done on purpose for the sake of pacing. Having Cerberus be followed up directly by an even more difficult and intense boss fight would've resulted in many players quitting the game because they would be too burnt out or even scared to proceed forward. Having a relatively easy boss here gives the player confidence and eases them forward to the next major challenge.

It should be noted here that all these down time levels also have an extra use. Since they usually happen after you acquire a major weapon/tool because of a big fight... it gives players some time to experiment with the new tool after acquiring it. That is why once you have acquired everything in the game, it's pretty much non stop boss action from that point on.


Agni and Rudra

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Break time is over... time for the next intense battle. A&R is a very difficult boss battle for new players and it's one of those bosses that many players ended up quitting on. It's an aggressive fight because it's 2 against 1. Because this was a major boss battle like against Cerberus, you are awarded with a new weapon for your troubles.

Imagine having this boss fight right after beating Cerberus... many players would've had their confidence shattered even more!


Mission # 6 leading into Mission #7 and the first Vergil encounter- End of Act 1


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Time for a breather after Mission #5 and A&R. This is a more puzzle based area where you have to work through the mechanics of the area to get through. There are some combat areas but if you figure out the gimmick of the area you can go through with little combat. Best of all if you complete all the trials you are rewarded with a new weapon!

Mission#7 is another exploration mission but it does feature a couple of new enemy types that by now the player should be able to handle. Once again the player has some of their confidence restored as they make through these next two levels relatively easily. After some exploration and puzzle solving you make your to the next area...

The first Vergil encounter is staged flawlessly. Takes place at the top of the tower you had been progressing through all this time, the tone changes when you encounter him, music and aesthetic are top notch... the game had been building up to this encounter since the prologue cutscene! Even if you don't think the actual battle had the same difficulty as the previous two major boss fights... there's no doubt that in terms of narrative intensity this is the highest the game has reached since the beginning. At this point you are at the edge of your seat, waiting to see what happens next. You want to beat Vergil not just for game play progression reasons but for of story reasons as well.

This first encounter concludes the first act of the game or the first 1/3rd of the game. If you were like most people you couldn't wait to push on but wait....


Mission #8, Leviathan and Mission #9 leading into Nevan

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After a ridiculously hype cutscene, you are put into a very anti hype and low action level in the belly of a beast. This is another breather level, the intensity is way down in this and even the boss is just a very non engaging, damage sponge of an opponent. It's another confidence booster. You really can't wait to get out of this level.

Next mission is back to usual level design of the game, after some exploring, puzzle solving and path opening (as well as finding a Spiral on a ledge if you looked hard enough)... you make your way to the next boss. This boss is one of the first bosses in the game who seems to have some lore background with Dante so there's some narrative reasons for this fight which ups the personal stakes involved in the fight. The fight is also not bad, it's challenging in its own right and is more of a pattern recognition boss fight with some interesting mechanics involved. You are again rewarded with a new weapon for this fight.


Mission #10, 11, 12, 13 - Beowulf, Geryon, 2nd Vergil encounter - End of Act 2

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Mission #10 is your standard breather level after Nevan. As you can see this pattern seems to be well established by now and it follows to the tee on what is proper action pacing design. You do some exploration and puzzle solving in this mission to progress. Mission#11 has more complex action sequences including some environment interactions you have to be aware of which increases the challenge of the game. The mission caps off with a very high intensity boss fight in Beowulf who definitely has narrative reasons to be fighting you. Like Vergil this can be considered a rival fight so there is more on the line to fight than just for progression. Fight is challenging for a lot of people, Beowulf is aggressive and has a combination of powerful close attacks and ranged attacks. It's satisfying to beat him however you feel like you are robbed out of acquiring a weapon from beating him! Well this is one of the first curveball the game throws at you as its one of the few instances where a boss flees from you instead of being killed so you don't acquire his stuff.

It may seem strange to group all of these together but there is a reason. The is one of the small exceptions the game makes in terms of pacing. Instead of giving a breather mission after the Beowulf fight.. the player is thrust right back into the action with a very high intensity combat sequence involving a life drain mechanic. Player is forced to kill enemies to survive. This sequence finishes with another relatively challenging boss fight in Geryon which has its own unique mechanics to deal with. During all of this some major story cutscenes are played out involving some twists and betrayals... you would think that the mission after 12 would lower the pace but nah...

See this is where DMC3 takes the player out of their comfort zone. If you were paying attention up to this point, you might have gotten very familiar with the action beats of the game. Level with hard boss fight, level with no boss fight or a very easy boss fight right afterwards to take the pressure off etc. Well now you had to deal with 3 back to back high octane missions with 3 challenging bosses at the end of each along with quite a few story cutscenes that build up the climax at the end of act 2 very nicely.

So the 2nd Vergil encounter... well that was even MORE extraordinary than the first encounter (both in terms of mechanics and narrative)! The stakes were higher this time around and the twist that ended this fight was even more dramatic. The tone of the game changes again after this moment in the game and it concludes the 2nd act of the game, culminating with appearances from all the major characters of the game.

You get the Beowulf weapon soon after you beat Vergil 2 because it was Vergil who had actually killed Beowulf, not Dante. This was a cool touch and was a nice curveball to the standard acquisition of devil arms presented in the game thus far.


Mission # 14 + 15, Lady and Doppelganger

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The end of act 2 was the biggest peak of the game since the end of act 1. At this point you should been saying "man I could really use a breather after that sequence". Well you do... only instead of getting one slow mission you get two! This pacing choice was meant to make up for the fact that you ended up tackling 3 action packed missions back to back but this section of the game is arguably among the weakest sections of DMC3 (alongside Mission#8 which interestingly enough also followed an end of act sequence). The backtracking in these two missions also didn't help matters at all plus the tower rotation level design mechanic really hampered the pacing. This section is easily the biggest fall in action pacing for the entire game. You could make the argument that this was deliberate as this section is really the only slow period between act 2 and act 3 as we will soon see, however, if I am being perfectly honest I will say that they could've made these levels more high intensity.

Mission#16 is the point where the action starts to climax all the way until the end of the game but it's done so in a deliberate manner. That is because by the end of Mission#17 you have acquired all the weapons/tools in the game so there is no reason to put in cooldown levels to experiment your new found tools on. You go up against Lady, then you go up against Doppelganger in the next mission (both of which provide you with new tools to play around with), back to back unique boss fights each with their own gimmick and each providing you with a new tool with. After this you descend (or technically ascent) into hell and from here on out.... the action does not let up.


Mission#18, Chess Board, Boss Gauntlet, Arkham, Final Vergil encounter - The Final Stretch

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This is the home stretch of the game. Where most games have you do a victory lap near the end with an on the rails sections... DMC3 has more surprises in store for you. Upon entering hell you are made to face off against the Chess Board, a very unique combat scenario involving a large amount of enemy types. You have to adapt quickly to this new scenario, this could be considered a boss fight by itself.

After you beat this encounter... you are put into a boss gauntlet! But because you have way more tools and moves at your arsenal... the same fights play out much differently. You also have a choice in the matter in terms of who you want to face but the choice is dictated by the relatively difficulty of the boss fights. You can choose to fight 3 of the hardest boss fights in the game (Cerberus, A&R and Beowulf) or you can fight many bosses that are much easier. Either way, this is a challenge you have to overcome to progress and boss gauntlets are rarely easy.

With no breathers in sight... you then move on to the penultimate boss fight in the game which is against Arkham. This boss fight has big narrative implication but it's really nothing more than a gimmick boss fight. It was clearly never meant to be the climactic showdown and if there's any form of victory lap in the game then it would be this boss fight due to the mechanics involved.

And finally... just like all the previous end of act sequences, the final act delivers on the build up. You have to fight Vergil one last time to finish the game once and for all. The emotional stakes are at their peak here, the build up to this moment has been magnanimous. The music that plays during this boss fight is a grand version of the theme that plays throughout the game... you feel in your heart that is really the final encounter of the game and you have to use everything you have learned up to this point to overcome it. And this fight does not disappoint at all... it is everything a final boss fight should be. Very challenging yet at the same time very fair, many would say that this is in fact the hardest boss fight of the game. You couldn't give the game a better climactic finish than this (could've picked a better spot to fight in though... LOL!).



The End... or is it?

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The final boss fight is over, your hands are shaking, you feel satisfied with what has transpired. You have lost count of how many hours you have spent on the game, how many times you died, how many enemies you killed. Vergil's final word as you land the final blow on him echo in your mind long after the moment has passed. You are left with a bittersweet sensation... the game was great but was that actually the last time you get to fight off against Vergil, an adversary you had worked so hard to defeat all this time?

You are ready to put the controller down after you see Dante shed a tear for his brother... but then you see Dante saying "I am absolutely crazy about it!" and realize.... it's not over 'till its over! During the credits there is an actual combat sequence you can play which has you fighting a hundred demons finishing off with a Hell Vanguard fight! Absolutely brilliant stuff... as if the game needed anymore convincing that it is in fact an action game, you are given a chance to fight during the credits. Safe to say these are some of the most action packed credits you have witnessed. If you beat the whole encounter in the allotted time you are treated to a secret cutscene involving Vergil! The game ends for real after that and everything comes back full circle, wrapping it all in a nice bow.

Even the credits fit right into what the game is about. From the first input you do in the game to the last one... it's all about stylish action. You feel like you have played an action epic, even forgetting that the game had a lot of down times in the middle that built up to the next major action sequence which you remember fondly. You remember the major end of act moments as that was the main point of the game both mechanically and thematically. And it's all thanks to how the game was framed and paced along with how well the game actually played.

What about you? Any other examples that fit the same ebb and flow within a game? Do you agree or disagree with what makes or breaks the pacing of an action game?
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I think one thing in particular to note is the pacing within an action game is not only different from other forms of media, naturally, but also among gaming as an entire medium. Action games are different from a role playing game or an adventure game. It requires proper pacing and escalation of every facet of encounter design, combat, and ability growth. For example, weapon skill and acquisition is a big part of the pacing within an action game, and one that is sometimes undervalued in games today.

One sort of interesting thing to add is how Dante's position within the tower echoes the story's pacing itself. He is hitting peaks and valleys, climbing to the apex, and dropping off the edge in the chase for Vergil in Mission 7. He climbs back up only to get knocked down again. At Mission 15, Dante literally hits the ground floor again mid-mission, only to climb back up past the top of the tower, transcending beyond the original top to the climax.

It's so carefully calculated and follows the peaks and valleys of the game plot.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
I know it might not be the king gameplay wise due to age. But I still feel it by far has the best campaign of any character action game still. No QTEs like Bayo 1 to ruin sections, and unlike the majority of games in the series. The story is nice and simple. All that coupled with the pacing as detailed in the OP really lets it shine.

It's still the Top Character Action game for me if we're talking the whole package.
 

TDLink

Member
I think it's #2 to Bayo 2. Bayo 1 does have some pacing issues and those awful motorcycle sections, but Bayo 2 is pretty much perfect from a pacing standpoint. I'd give DMC 3 second place though.
 
Best game of all time

No lies detected. DMC3 is the GOATest of all time.

I'm still floored by how good the twist of Vergil getting Beowulf before you do is. You're climbing this tower, destroying fools left and right and taking their souls as weapons, when all of a sudden Beowulf proves too stronk, flattens Dante, only to be effortlessly taken down by Vergil. Then, surprise surprise, Vergil gets the new weapon instead, and now you have to fight Vergil and he uses it against you! And when you decide you're going to use your awesome new Devil Trigger to level the playing field, he fucking DTs too and it's the hypest shit ever.
 

Hypron

Member
I think it's #2 to Bayo 2. Bayo 1 does have some pacing issues and those awful motorcycle sections, but Bayo 2 is pretty much perfect from a pacing standpoint. I'd give DMC 3 second place though.

Bayo 2 is missing an actual satisfying final boss though. While the final boss is mechanically better than the one in Bayo 1 the build up fell flat and left me wanting more. It's as if Bayonetta 1 finished after Father Balder for example.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I always thought DMC3 had a story miles ahead of the other games, and actually kinda stand out in the character action genre.

Who wrote the script, do we know?
 
Very thorough and good analysis.

I wasn't always a big fan of the aesthetic behind Temen-ni-gru, being more fond of DMC1's environment and gothic look. But the pacing in DMC3 is very much a big reason for why I still appreciate that game's campaign that any personal complaints I have with the environment and design of that tower isn't anything significant, certainly not compared to Fortuna in DMC4 and how that game handles it. Everything really does move a good pace, hitting those peaks at the right times and so on.

Mission 1 is still possibly the strongest, most balls out crazy opening I've had the pleasure to experience in any action game. And I REALLY enjoyed the openings of both Bayonetta 1 and 2.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I always thought DMC3 had a store miles ahead of the other games, and actually kinda stand out in the character action genre.

Who wrote the script, do we know?

Bingo Morihashi and Takayasu Yanagihara are credited as the writers.

Bingo returned for DMC4.

Obviously writing isn't everything when it comes to pacing, but it does play a big part.
 
I give the honor to Bayonetta 2, the queen of the action genre.
You know, love, some of the stuff with that kid, love, drags pretty bad, love

When Bayo 2 is good, it's fucking good. But from a narrative standpoint that shit is pretty dull and has a few lulls. Walk and talk sections suck. Setpieces are obviously top tier though.

I haven't played DMC3, but I'd really like to. I'm kind of hoping for a PS4 port this year but I may just grab it on PC and do whatever mods/etc that it needs to be playable
 

Afrocious

Member
Bayo 2 tapered out near the end. Also it didn't help how dumb the dialogue was, as well as having a serious lack of charm that both DMC3 and Bayo 1 had. Bayo 2 took itself too seriously at certain points.
 
Best paced action game doesn't = your favorite action game, guys.

I'd like if someone could break down exactly why they consider bayo or whatever else a better paced action game, we could get some real discussion going instead of just drive-by posting that bayo is better paced.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
I always thought DMC3 had a store miles ahead of the other games, and actually kinda stand out in the character action genre.

Who wrote the script, do we know?

Yeah I still say for the Character Action genre DMC3 still has the best story out of all of them. Wish DMC4 would have followed rather than getting obtuse.
 

VariantX

Member
Probably my favorite game in the series. Because of the style switches + crazy weapons give you tons of ways to experiment with how each style alters the functionality of some weapons and dante's mobility and base tools. Favorite part of the game is right after Dante gets his ass handed to him by Vergil, awakens DT and rises up through the sword he was impaled with, jumps off of Temen-ni-gru... falling is too slow for him apparently, so he starts running down the tower you spent hours climbing. The hype moments in this game seem to come at the perfect time and feel all the more satisfying as little story and character bits get revealed. And yea, the fight with the enemies during the end credits was totally unexpected and a nice surprise
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Bingo Morihashi and Takayasu Yanagihara.

Bingo returned for DMC4.

Hm. Question OP:

Do you think the DMC series would be in a much better position narrative wise if DMC3 had been the original game instead of DMC1? It seems like they had to mess everything up to conform in certain ways to the fiction already laid out

Yeah I still say for the Character Action genre DMC3 still has the best story out of all of them. Wish DMC4 would have followed rather than getting obtuse.

Lady is still best girl, and they could have taken everything in such interesting directions i thought in multiple ways
 

Astral Dog

Member
I give the honor to Bayonetta 2, the queen of the action genre.
Bayo 2 never gets boring with its encounters and pacing but definetly is an example in the op of too high steam action,it lacks areas to breathe and interesting things to build up, and also does not end on the highest note, Bayonetta 1 was slightly better with that even if it dropped the ball on a few missions.

And of course DMC 3 truly is a greatly designed game in terms of pacing, the only things i would complain about are some of the annoying missions with repeated environments where you have to collect X things or can get a bit lost.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Hm. Question OP:

Do you think the DMC series would be in a much better position narrative wise if DMC3 had been the original game instead of DMC1? It seems like they had to mess everything up to conform in certain ways to the fiction already laid out
Narrative wise it makes very little difference but tonally it would make a lot of difference.

DMC3 doesn't really directly contradict anything in DMC1 the game proper. But that's because DMC1's story was pretty barebones with lots of holes that could've been filled in (and ones that DMC3 attempted to do).


Basically what I am saying is that if they were to remake DMC1 and DMC3 (and DMC3 was the first one in this new remake series)... DMC3 would largely be the same game tonally but DMC1 would be changed up quite a bit probably. That's because the tone of DMC3 is what the series has moved forward with. It's why DMC4 Dante appears more similar to DMC3 Dante than DMC1 Dante even though age wise he's closer to DMC1 Dante.

They might even attempt to do some funny things in DMC1 like have Nelo Angelo speak some actual lines to confirm that he is in fact Vergil, change his appearance when he unmasked, maybe throw in Rebellion for the sake of consistency etc. Also give DMC1 Dante on the fly weapon swap and styles.
 

SnakeXs

about the same metal capacity as a cucumber
No lies detected. DMC3 is the GOATest of all time.

I'm still floored by how good the twist of Vergil getting Beowulf before you do is. You're climbing this tower, destroying fools left and right and taking their souls as weapons, when all of a sudden Beowulf proves too stronk, flattens Dante, only to be effortlessly taken down by Vergil. Then, surprise surprise, Vergil gets the new weapon instead, and now you have to fight Vergil and he uses it against you! And when you decide you're going to use your awesome new Devil Trigger to level the playing field, he fucking DTs too and it's the hypest shit ever.

You just got me mad hyped.

Good shit.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Hm. Question OP:

Do you think the DMC series would be in a much better position narrative wise if DMC3 had been the original game instead of DMC1? It seems like they had to mess everything up to conform in certain ways to the fiction already laid out

I'm not DahBomb, but I don't think the existence of DMC1 rightly matters for the narrative within DMC3 or as a series as a whole. If nothing else, it actually created a template and history for them to explore in the prequel. DMC3 actually fits pretty well as a prequel to DMC1, even if it was a soft reboot of sorts.
 

gconsole

Member
Whats with Bayonetta 2 reference here? Im not action gamer but that game has absolutely no challenge compare to DMC3. The story is bland and character is absolutely nin interesting. And yes I did finish both game. Totally different league.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Narrative wise it makes very little difference but tonally it would make a lot of difference.

DMC3 doesn't really directly contradict anything in DMC1 the game proper. But that's because DMC1's story was pretty barebones with lots of holes that could've been filled in (and ones that DMC3 attempted to do).


They might even attempt to do some funny things in DMC1 like have Nelo Angelo speak some actual lines to confirm that he is in fact Vergil, change his appearance when he unmasked, maybe throw in Rebellion for the sake of consistency etc.


What i meant was, DMC4 was a confused mess of different things compared to DMC3 because DMC1 and 2 were there, and they could not just make a brand new story that contradicted them coming off of DMC3, i didn't mean to imply that DMC3 would have to change. My original question was intended to be with DMC3 staying the same was it exists now.

If that was the case, any new DMC4(now DMC2) would never have had to have a timeskip like that, they literally could have gone anywhere from the end of DMC3 with the story and worldview(assuming they had cutout the very last segment with Vergil challenging mundus)
 

mrmickfran

Member
If there is one thing I have to admit, is DMC3 has some really good pacing.

Shame about the enemies though. Absolute garbage.

And it also had Geryon, and Arkham. Atrocious bosses.
 

Dahbomb

Member
What i meant was, DMC4 was a confused mess of different things compared to DMC3 because DMC1 and 2 were there, and they could not just make a brand new story that contradicted them coming off of DMC3, i didn't mean to imply that DMC3 would have to change. My original question was intended to be with DMC3 staying the same was it exists now.
DMC4's story being a confused mess had nothing to do with either DMC1 or DMC2. They tried a lot of things and they didn't work. DMC4's story is also clearly unfinished because it's the "A New Hope" with no "Empire Strikes Back". There's clearly a "I am your father moment" between Vergil and Nero that is missing from DMC4.

Shame about the enemies though. Absolute garbage.
Probably the main reason whenever the conversation about best action game of all time, DMC3 is brought up but it comes up with an asterisk.

"Man DMC3 would be action GOAT if it had actually good enemies.



If that was the case, any new DMC4(now DMC2) would never have had to have a timeskip like that, they literally could have gone anywhere from the end of DMC3 with the story and worldview(assuming they had cutout the very last segment with Vergil challenging mundus)
They basically had a clean slate to work with for DMC4. They could've done literally anything because they weren't actually tied down by DMC1. DMC2's story is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, only thing they would have to work around is Dante surviving at the end of DMC4. In fact DMC4 doesn't even attempt to tie into DMC2 (it does tie with DMC1 with the addition of Trish for example).
 
I can definitely agree with this.

My only other pick would be Wonderful 101. Similar to DMC3, it immediately sets the tone with the bus sequence and the very first transformation. From there it only goes up in a way that very few games do, properly developing the characters along the way (though some get shafted in this regard more than others). Each new character you get adds a new ability that adds considerably to the combat, but the game is smart enough to not front load all the characters at once so you can get used to what you have first.

The mission ending boss fights are always bigger than the last, whether its in scope, significance, or both. And though it can take a bit to get going, the game always knows that the direction is up and builds itself up in a way where it never wears it's welcome. The only part that can feel a bit too stale by the end of it is the schmup section, but you know Kamiya.
 
It's tough to disagree, as it's definitely up there. It's a great game and a lot of fun, and never lets you go.

I regret not beating it when I rented it. I got really far, and was proud of myself because I'd heard how difficult it was, but never actually got to the credits.
 

Mechazawa

Member
Probably the main reason whenever the conversation about best action game of all time, DMC3 is brought up but it comes up with an asterisk.

"Man DMC3 would be action GOAT if it had actually good enemies.

This is ultimately what brings large portions of that game down for me.

Something like DMC4 has a lot of missteps, but at least I wasn't fighting hopping statues halfway into the game. I was straight dunking on Blitzes and Angelos.
 

Dahbomb

Member
There are a few caveats to that post that I either forgot to mention or something I didn't fully elaborate on:

*Pacing is very different on DMC3 and DMC3SE due to the checkpoint system and the difficulty. Vanilla DMC3 was pretty rough at the start and thus ended up being a pacing nightmare if you got stuck on a boss. Mileage varies a lot in DMC3 because of this.

*DMC3SE adds a bunch of Jester boss fights in the game, one of them being mandatory. That sort of messes with the peak/valleys near the Mission#4-5 section.

*Intensity is sometimes synonymous with difficulty in some cases. That is something where games differ from other mediums... you can pace not only the scope of the action scenes but their difficulty as well.

For DMC3 you can pretty much follow that graph for the difficulty curve as well except that the first Vergil boss fight is A LOT easier than it was probably intended to be.

*Mileage varies on style used and weapon load out used. Some bosses will be easier with certain styles, same for enemies and this affects pacing. It also matters if you replayed some levels which allowed you upgrade styles faster than intended.

*Styles were meant to be leveled up at the specific "down times" in the games. You are supposed to get lvl2 style around the Gigapede area and then lvl3 style around Mission#14-15 ish.

When you take that into account, basically from Mission#1 to Mission#16 you are always getting something new to play around with which also factors into the pacing.
 

Demise

Member
Are some people praising the story, writing and narrative of this game ? Seriousely ? I like this game a lot but god no, everything aside the gameplay, the animation and the intro is aweful. The atmosphere is lacking the perfect work of the first episode, the story is laughable, cutscenes are CRINGE WORTHY (wouhouhwouhouwouuuuu, yeaaaaaaaah...), the young dante is an asshole, an unlikeable character and most of all an insult to the classy character the first game portrays. Bestiary is ugly and inconsistant, photography is ugly, vergil fight like a boss but outside of that he has no charisma, he acts like an angry teenagers, arkham sucks even more than mundus as main antagonist, wich is quite a feat in itself...

The game is very, very fun to play, way better than the inconsistent bayofraud but you'll have to close the eyes on a loads of things, like vanquish.
 
Spelt Bayonetta wrong.
Bayonetta has abysmal pacing in how it constantly interrupts itself with either tedious fluff / gimmicks or overly long (and frequent) cutscenes.

Bayo 2 is missing an actual satisfying final boss though. While the final boss is mechanically better than the one in Bayo 1 the build up fell flat and left me wanting more. It's as if Bayonetta 1 finished after Father Balder for example.
Father Balder would've been a better finish than Jubileus as far as I'm concerned because that fight was actually somewhat enjoyable. Stretch leading up to her and the fight itself is so mind-numbingly boring beyond the initial playthrough once you get past the spectacle.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Are some people praising the story, writing and narrative of this game ? Seriousely ? I like this game a lot but god no, everything aside the gameplay, the animation and the intro is aweful. The atmosphere is lacking the perfect work of the first episode, the story is laughable, cutscenes are CRINGE WORTHY (wouhouhwouhouwouuuuu, yeaaaaaaaah...), the young dante is an asshole, an unlikeable character and most of all an insult to the classy character the first game portrays. Bestiary is ugly and inconsistant, photography is ugly, vergil fight like a boss but outside of that he has no charisma, he acts like an angry teenagers, arkham sucks even more than mundus as main antagonist, wich is quite a feat in itself...

The game is very, very fun to play, way better than the inconsistent bayofraud but you'll have to close the eyes on a loads of things, like vanquish.

The pacing actually isn't necessarily tied to the story or writing. Very little of what you've written is relevant. Did you read the OP? It's very specific about what it's addressing.
 
Remove the "might".
It, along with Ninja Gaiden Black and God of War 3 are at the top of their genre.

Bayonetta, etc aren't close.
 
Are some people praising the story, writing and narrative of this game ? Seriousely ? I like this game a lot but god no, everything aside the gameplay, the animation and the intro is aweful. The atmosphere is lacking the perfect work of the first episode, the story is laughable, cutscenes are CRINGE WORTHY (wouhouhwouhouwouuuuu, yeaaaaaaaah...),

Story laughable and cutscenes cringeworthy compared to the first game? Seriously?

DMC1 was so much more memorable for me, a classic

It also has pretty bad pacing, which is the point of this thread. Remember those underwater sections? Or all that backtracking?
 

JayEH

Junior Member
Reading this has made me want to play DMC3 again. I do prefer 4 to 3 just because of multiple characters (especially now with SE) but 3 was a damn fine game.

Are some people praising the story, writing and narrative of this game ? Seriousely ? I like this game a lot but god no, everything aside the gameplay, the animation and the intro is aweful. The atmosphere is lacking the perfect work of the first episode, the story is laughable, cutscenes are CRINGE WORTHY (wouhouhwouhouwouuuuu, yeaaaaaaaah...), the young dante is an asshole, an unlikeable character and most of all an insult to the classy character the first game portrays. Bestiary is ugly and inconsistant, photography is ugly, vergil fight like a boss but outside of that he has no charisma, he acts like an angry teenagers, arkham sucks even more than mundus as main antagonist, wich is quite a feat in itself...

The game is very, very fun to play, way better than the inconsistent bayofraud but you'll have to close the eyes on a loads of things, like vanquish.

I enjoyed the story a lot. I wouldn't say anything like it's the Citizen Kane of gaming or anything but it was a good action anime. Got the job done and had memorable characters/bosses along with a couple of really well done scenes.
 
I personally thought that God Hand had amazing pacing, as did Onimusha 3. I never got bored playing Metal Gear Rising either. Looking at this topic though, it's a DMC/Bayo lovefest so eh, people will disagree, but whatever.
 

Sayad

Member
Definitely the best action game experience. Though the most repayable one, imo, is DMC4's Bloody Palace.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I personally thought that God Hand had amazing pacing, as did Onimusha 3. I never got bored playing Metal Gear Rising either. Looking at this topic though, it's a DMC/Bayo lovefest so eh, people will disagree, but whatever.

Don't let that discourage you. Name whatever games you feel are better and substantiate it. I'm surprised we haven't seen more RE4, though I suppose RE4 straddles the line between action and shooter.
 

NotLiquid

Member
I can definitely agree with this.

My only other pick would be Wonderful 101. Similar to DMC3, it immediately sets the tone with the bus sequence and the very first transformation. From there it only goes up in a way that very few games do, properly developing the characters along the way (though some get shafted in this regard more than others). Each new character you get adds a new ability that adds considerably to the combat, but the game is smart enough to not front load all the characters at once so you can get used to what you have first.

The mission ending boss fights are always bigger than the last, whether its in scope, significance, or both. And though it can take a bit to get going, the game always knows that the direction is up and builds itself up in a way where it never wears it's welcome. The only part that can feel a bit too stale by the end of it is the schmup section, but you know Kamiya.

While I'm not sure if I'd rank it above DMC3 I would definitely call it Kamiya's best paced game and definitely Platinum's best paced one. Everything builds up smoothly to that final encounter with some really enjoyable moments of downtime and introspection that contextualizes subsequent encounters. It was actually the first thing that came to mind when I read the topic title and thought about other wel paced action games.
 

Akiller

Member
Bingo Morihashi and Takayasu Yanagihara are credited as the writers.

Bingo returned for DMC4.

Obviously writing isn't everything when it comes to pacing, but it does play a big part.

Ah yeah Bingo, he also wrote Bayo 2 story together with Kamiya.
 
It also has pretty bad pacing, which is the point of this thread. Remember those underwater sections? Or all that backtracking?

You only spend five minutes underwater over the course of the whole game (more if you do that one underwater secret mission). The backtracking isn't a big deal; every time you revisit an old area it has a completely new enemy layout, and the passing of time over the course of the game makes each area feel very different (see how day turns to night in the castle grounds, or how the castle becomes much more sinister the second time you visit it).

Honestly, I'd say most of the great action games have really good "pacing"; all they really need in that regard is to constantly throw new environments and enemy types at you so that you never feel like you're just repeating content. DMC1 and 3, Bayonetta 1 and 2, Ninja Gaiden Black (still playing 2 so I can't vouch for that one yet), Metal Gear Rising, and Wonderful 101 all do a great job in that regard. (DMC4 feels like it has a lack of enemy variety and of course Dante's levels not feeling very different from Nero's is a little unforgivable, and God Hand - while otherwise incredibly great - suffers a bit in this regard since most enemies don't feel very different from each other, and unlike most of the above games, God Hand doesn't really do much of anything to break up the pacing).

I definitely agree with DMC3 having the best-told story in action games. All its cutscenes are easily rewatchable; not something I'd say for pretty much any other game in this subgenre.
 
Don't let that discourage you. Name whatever games you feel are better and substantiate it. I'm surprised we haven't seen more RE4, though I suppose RE4 straddles the line between action and shooter.

I honestly think that Capcom/former Capcom staff are the masters of game pacing, just looking at their PS2 output, none of it ever bored me at all. Viewtiful Joe, the other Onimusha games, RE4 the list goes on and on, sure there are some dudes here and there but for the most, I tend to think that pretty much all Capcom games during the PS2/GC gen were perfectly paced not just DMC3, but that's just me.
 

Nazo

Member
I read the thread title too fast and thought it said Devi's Third for some reason. I was quite confused to say the least.
 

Nemmy

Member
I never really thought about how the easier missions in DMC3 are meant as opportunities to try out the new weapons. A very cool observation!

I disagree with the thread title though (bait or no :p) as I always thought that missions 14-17 were really crap, compared to the stellar acts 1 and 2. After the second Vergil encounter you know that major shit has just hit the fan, the tower is largely in ruins, and you want to chase after Arkham ASAP. And what does the game throw at you? A ridiculous backtracking marathon, including actually teleporting you out of the tower and back into the beginning area, crowned with two of the least challenging and interesting bosses in the whole game, because all the big guns are really spent at this point. It really breaks the pacing of the third act IMO (it sure is later saved by the Hell chapters, but still).

On the contrary, I always thought that DMC1 had the best pacing and structure in the series, even though it certainly aimed for something much less intense that DMC3 did - it's much more akin to Resident Evil games in terms of pacing. I view DMC1 as a kind of paranormal investigation story, with Dante initially roaming the castle aimlessly in search of clues about the evil presence there, gradually learning what he's facing and what he must do.
Act 1 - exploring the castle for the first time. The pace is initially very slow, but gets more intense as Dante is being hunted by Phantom. The first Nelo encounter takes place and we learn that he is a badass and he's gonna be trouble later on. The act ends with Phantom's death, after which Dante manages to open the gates and leave the castle.
Act 2 - exploring the castle grounds. Griffin takes over Phantom's role as the stalker boss and mentions Mundus for the first time since the intro. Nelo makes another appearance, and again the act ends with the boss dying. Mundus shows up and Dante declares he's going to kill him - so the act ends up giving him a clear sense of purpose.
Act 3 - returning to the castle. Night falls at the end of act 2, and the castle is now very different. Shadows lurk in the darkness now, and something super wrong is going on in the already-creepy cathedral. Nightmare is immediately revealed as this act's recurring boss fight, and a final fight against Nelo takes place, giving Dante a new weapon and a new reason to try and kill Mundus. After opening a gate to Hell in the cathedral and a final showdown with Nightmare, the big bad gets his ass handed to him over the course of two missions and three boss fights. Whew.
Getting the obvious out of the way - DMC1's cutscenes are garbage and the game's presentation aged really badly. But I think that the structure is there and it's actually very well thought out, with a lot of neat details (Phantom's demise, ending act 1, takes place in the first room of the castle you enter at the start of the act, on the first ladmark - the knight's spear - that you see). Even with its obvious shortcomings I personally prefer it to DMC3's (though it's mainly due to missions 14-17 as I mentioned earlier).
 
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