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[Vigilant Walrus]

DMC3 did not have the immediacy of the aggressive enemies in Ninja Gaiden. To me, Ninja Gaiden is the best moment-to-moment combat in a 3D title.

I think DMC3 has a better story. It's nonsense, but it stays true it's own universe, where as Ninja Gaiden is complete dogshit. The cut scenes, the world building, nothing makes sense. And it's bad, not in a good-bad way. It's just bad.

DMC3 has cool characters, it has really fun cut scenes. It was the best ideration of DMC, and the flair it had was lost in 4 and the atrocious Anime.

 

[Father_Brain]

I wish there were a non-shitty PC port of this one. Ah well, will stick with DmC and maybe DMC4SE for now.

 

[Ludger Kresnik]

Bayo 1's pacing may be pretty thoroughly fucked, but its gameplay has a flow to it that I really think DMC3 is never quite able to match. I never hit any walls with Bayo where I was almost ready to just give up (I'm not talking about hard bosses, DMC3's low points are pretty darn boring lbr) because it always keeps it moving. The Space Harrier homage is the one big blotch there, but even then it's on rails and will get itself over with if you just hang in there. DMC3's downtime can get really dull and I thought it detracted from the experience. In contrast, Bayo 1's breather segments know full well when it's time to get going again.

So, DMC3 may be better paced, structurally speaking, but in terms of most individual missions I think Bayo totally has it. I could also get into how you can totally disregard any and all tools available to you in Bayo 1 that aren't the standard handguns or the dodge button because any approach to any situation at all is completely valid, but that's a whole other thing.

Spoiler

I also have no idea how Bayo 2 handles anything I just mentioned since I've never played or watched it.

 

[badcrumble]

If Capcom is smart they are going to map Trickster evasion to O/B by default for Dante in DMC5 and redo the style system. Keep the default roll option for people who want to play old school but use a new evasion system for new players.

The roll mechanic is something that has always been one of the learning curves of learning DMC. It's dated nowadays and it doesn't match the brisk pace the game wants you to be playing at. When you see top Dante/Vergil players use those characters in DMC4... ain't no one got time to roll. Nero and the ladies have to roll because they have no better option but even with someone like Nero they would just rather spend a bar to DT and evade a move on the spot to keep the pressure up. Plus Nero at least has the added Table Hopper mechanic on his dodging to keep the pressure up.

They tried to give a dodge button in DmC and it works fine standalone but originally it came at the cost of no lock on. In an era where the Souls borne games exist, there's no reason not to have a lock on and an evasion button available to the player.

By having that universal dodge you can design more aggressive enemies. In the OG DMC games, the enemies are still designed around the same roll that was in DMC1 when the actual characters can run circles around the enemy.


But of course this is a completely separate topic.

Yeah, I think DMC5 can and should remap tons of Trickster/Gunslinger functionality onto the basic non-Style controls for Dante. If they could somehow find space for a dedicated RG button too (I'm not against Bayonetta's stick-based implementation of block/counter either) then we could see much crazier shit mapped onto the Style button.

 

[badcrumble]

I wish there were a non-shitty PC port of this one. Ah well, will stick with DmC and maybe DMC4SE for now.

It's been patched/modded pretty well to the point that it's quite good, IIRC.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You only spend five minutes underwater over the course of the whole game (more if you do that one underwater secret mission).

It's a bit more than "five minutes"

I only compared the atmosphere with the first game, i just pointed out the rest.

So your point is that DMC3's atmosphere and story are bad because they are, in your opinion, worse than some arbitrary games you choose to compare them with, which aren't the same for each category. Did I get that right?

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah, I think DMC5 can and should remap tons of Trickster/Gunslinger functionality onto the basic non-Style controls for Dante. If they could somehow find space for a dedicated RG button too (I'm not against Bayonetta's stick-based implementation of block/counter either) then we could see much crazier shit mapped onto the Style button.

L1 = Style modifier button
L1+ Triangle = Swordmaster moves
L1 + O = Royal Guard moves
L1 + [] = Gunslinger moves

O ends up being the Trickster button by default.


Done and done.

 

[Demise]

So your point is that DMC3's atmosphere and story are bad because they are, in your opinion, worse than some arbitrary games you choose to compare them with, which aren't the same for each category. Did I get that right?

You got it wrong. I'm not comparing apple and oranges here, I'm comparing the two best games of the same serie.

Atmosphere is way, way worst than the first episode. It's just a huge backstep from it. And again, I did not compared the story of the first episode to the third one, both are REALLY bad imo, unless DMC1 do not insist on this point as much as DMC3.

But hey, don't need to be so angry about it, that's MY opinion, you can always think otherwise

 

[Ooccoo]

super meat boy is up there too

Not action

 

[gunbo13]

Vergil is the tying factor that makes DMC3 flow so well, along with the additional details that are contained in the thread. Many games try to replicate the anticipation of the next meeting with the game's antagonist and fall flat. DMC3 is the best example I have of a game that does it well. There are trials outside fighting Vergil but they are just narrating Dante as a journeyman. You never truly believe Dante should die to other bosses or enemy fodder. With Vergil, you are not convinced that you should win. This creates buildup, tension, and exuberance when you clear him. Ramping up the difficulty ups the realism of the game, making Vergil fight as he should fight on DMD.

DMC3 is the best character action game and one of my favs of all time. While I am primarily on the side of Dante, Vergil is just as required to make DMC3 great. Look at DMC4 and say the same about any character...

 

[Sesha]

Great thread. Although I don't like declaring anything as "the best" without question, I mostly agree. I do feel the "intensity" of the prologue (if you count missions 1-3 as the prologue) stretches for a bit too long. The pacing also loses quite a bit of steam during the third act. I feel we could have done without mission 14 or 15.

Games like MGR, Bayonetta and each of God of War do a good job of following a similar kind of structure, although each of them struggle a bit in their own way during the second act.

Unrelated to the pacing of the game, but I love how each Vergil fight closely mirrors each of the Nelo fights from DMC1, and that the weapons Vergil has for each fight in 3 matches the weapons Dante gains in 1 (Force Edge/Alastor-Yamato, Ifrit-Beowulf, Force Edge-Sparda). Vergil really is one of the key parts of what makes DMC3 so great overall, like gunbo says.

L1 = Style modifier button
L1+ Triangle = Swordmaster moves
L1 + O = Royal Guard moves
L1 + [] = Gunslinger moves

O ends up being the Trickster button by default.


Done and done.

My problem with this system is it basically replaces the style switching with a DmC-esque toggle system, and there's really no need for style switching altogether. There could easily be dedicated buttons for each style without modifiers or d-pad switching.

Swordmaster = Triangle, with the old Swordmaster moves being lock-on + back-to-forward, 360 degrees. Prop Shredder would be Triangle + O.
Gunslinger = [] + lock-on + directions (like Trish/Lady/Vergil) and/or [] + X + lock-on + directions
Trickster = R2 or O
Royalguard = O or R2
Devil Trigger = D-pad up

 

[Robot Pants]

Inclined to agree, really.

 

[badcrumble]

L1 = Style modifier button
L1+ Triangle = Swordmaster moves
L1 + O = Royal Guard moves
L1 + [] = Gunslinger moves

O ends up being the Trickster button by default.


Done and done.

Damn, yeah. I keep forgetting that L1 as the dedicated DT toggle is a huge waste of controller.

 

[Ryng_tolu]

While DMC3 is probabily the best Devil May Cry, i personally prefer the first.

Is probabily because was one of my first game... good times :')

 

[Seyavesh]

Unrelated to the pacing of the game, but I love how each Vergil fight closely mirrors each of the Nelo fights from DMC1, and that the weapons Vergil has for each fight in 3 matches the weapons Dante gains in 1 (Force Edge/Alastor-Yamato, Ifrit-Beowulf, Force Edge-Sparda).

holy shit that's actually an incredible detail
geez dmc3 is good

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

DMC3 has a great story. That also helps the game's pacing. Agreed with a lot of points in this thread.

 

[Dahbomb]

My problem with this system is it basically replaces the style switching with a DmC-esque toggle system, and there's really no need for style switching altogether. There could easily be dedicated buttons for each style without modifiers or d-pad switching.

Swordmaster = Triangle, with the old Swordmaster moves being lock-on + back-to-forward, 360 degrees. Prop Shredder would be Triangle + O.
Gunslinger = [] + lock-on + directions (like Trish/Lady/Vergil) and/or [] + X + lock-on + directions
Trickster = R2 or O
Royalguard = O or R2
Devil Trigger = D-pad up

DMC technically already has a toggle system whenever you engage lock on. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do Stinger/Hightime moves.

R2 wouldn't work because that's a slot used for weapon swap. Unless you are talking about L1 the Devil Trigger replacement.

Having moves be double face button inputs is not ideal at all. Yeah I know both DmC and DMC4SE have dabbled in it but it's not all that great and they should avoid it for anything but super moves. Like how it is with Vergil which leads to some really wonky shit involving teleport + Kick 13 and Drive.

Gunslinger direction + [] doesn't work because unlike melee attacks you need to be able to move forward while shooting or moving backwards while shooting with the guns and Shotgun (works fine for stationary guns like the Rocket Launcher). It can work but again it wouldn't be ideal and when you have stuff like back, forward + R1 + [] + X... well that's already too cumbersome for most people and even veterans when enemy step comes into the equation.


Not to say any of these wouldn't work, they can work but they create their own problems for the new player. The toggle system works fine in DmC and there are two of them in it. So instead of Angel/Demon you would have lock on and style. As long as there's a toggle option (tap once and you are in that form until you tap again) then it definitely can work.

 

[NinjaTehFish]

Love this game to death (shame about the steam port), But fuck any game that makes you fight all the damn bosses again. No.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Love this game to death (shame about the steam port), But fuck any game that makes you fight all the damn bosses again. No.

One of the most fun levels in the game. It's a really cool challenge, especially on DMD.

 

[OniBaka]

Love this game to death (shame about the steam port), But fuck any game that makes you fight all the damn bosses again. No.

That's the best part, makes you realize how much you evolved in gameplay.

 

[badcrumble]

Love this game to death (shame about the steam port), But fuck any game that makes you fight all the damn bosses again. No.

DMC3's boss rush is brilliant, though. You can do as much or as little as you want, and pick which boss fights you feel best suited to, and equip yourself perfectly for each one. Waaaaay better than most games do it.

Chess battle following that is tricky and often less fun though. All those enemies have a weird exchange of basically zero stun/juggle (though they're all easy to JC on) but tons of telegraphing of their attacks. It's a good test of your defensive abilities but it's very boring to actually attack them for the most part.

Contrast that to DMC4's boss rush, which is a bunch of bosses you've already fought *twice* (but not the best boss in the game, which is only fought once instead of three times like most of them), mixed with all the fun of the dice minigame.

 

[Monocle]

I give the honor to Bayonetta 2, the queen of the action genre.

Yep. DMC3 isn't nearly as fun to play from beginning to end.

 

[MissDeviling]

My problem with Bayo2 is that there's absolutely no room to breathe. Very little time to slow down given how linear it is, and it's just one huge fight to the next very quickly. DMC3's pacing is much more natural in the sense that you get to contrast exploration and regular fights that are less tense versus boss fights that are narratively and/or stylistically more urgent. I don't think it's the best at pacing, but it certainly does seem to balance it better than a lot of other character action games.

 

[Monocle]

My problem with Bayo2 is that there's absolutely no room to breathe. Very little time to slow down given how linear it is, and it's just one huge fight to the next very quickly. DMC3's pacing is much more natural in the sense that you get to contrast exploration and regular fights that are less tense versus boss fights that are narratively and/or stylistically more urgent. I don't think it's the best at pacing, but it certainly does seem to balance it better than a lot of other character action games.

I didn't notice that issue with Bayonetta 2. Maybe because I tend to go for all the hidden verses and collectibles.

DMC3's open level design doesn't serve it very well in my experience. The tower is a nightmare to navigate, even when you know where you're going. In fact, this is a persistent issue with the DMC series. All of the DMC games could do with a tighter level structure and less mandatory backtracking. At least Bayonetta has excellent mobility options. You can Panther Within and Afterburner Kick your way through everything.

As for there not being any room to breathe, I remember loads of quiet moments throughout the game. You don't have to rush directly into the next fight. Some levels are large enough that you can go a good ten minutes without encountering an enemy if you don't just run forward. Off the top of my head, there's lots of space in chapters 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, and 17.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I didn't notice that issue with Bayonetta 2. Maybe because I tend to go for all the hidden verses and collectibles.

DMC3's open level design doesn't serve it very well in my experience. The tower is a nightmare to navigate.

But it's got a map. And the rooms are color coded....

Old school resident evil games must have been impossible for you in that sense right?

 

[Monocle]

But it's got a map. And the rooms are color coded....

Old school resident evil games must have been impossible for you in that sense right?

I don't need my action games to be as expansive as Resident Evil. Bayonetta strikes the right balance between openness and linearity. You can explore all you want and you'll rarely get turned around. And there's actually plenty to explore in both games. Bayonetta 1 requires it, if you're trying to maximize your chapter ranking. Some of those hidden missions are really out of the way.

 

[Blugrass]

I wanna play this bad boy so bad...how is the pc port? Heard it wasn't too hot...

 

[MissDeviling]

I didn't notice that issue with Bayonetta 2. Maybe because I tend to go for all the hidden verses and collectibles.

DMC3's open level design doesn't serve it very well in my experience. The tower is a nightmare to navigate.

I did the hidden verses and stuff too, but it's nowhere near enough buffer time between big fights.

DMC3's level design wasn't open at all. You were sectioned off every chapter IIRC, but there was enough content to slow the player down between boss battles. I liked taking the time to figure out how to proceed in the tower, though I guess others might prefer a more straightforward layout.

 

[Seyavesh]

I wanna play this bad boy so bad...how is the pc port? Heard it wasn't too hot...

pc port is bad but there's a kinda fix-all patch that also adds dmc4 type on-the-fly style switching if you want (i highly recommend this because hooooly shit it's incredible)

 

[Ralemont]

Lady was such a great character. Then DMC4 fucked it up.

 

[GuardianE]

I wanna play this bad boy so bad...how is the pc port? Heard it wasn't too hot...

Despite being a terrible port, it can be "fixed" and even enhanced beyond the original's scope with the style switcher mod.

http://www.nexusmods.com/devilmaycry3/mods/1/?

 

[Dahbomb]

If DMC's levels were any tighter/linear then they would basically just be corridors truncated by square combat rooms essentially being an on rails action game.

And in any case the point of the thread was that the slower levels were put in place to pace out the combat sections. That's specifically where the valleys are in the game on the graph. Some missions are in fact just straight forward corridors into battle areas.

You were sectioned off every chapter IIRC

You aren't sectioned off of previous content you did unless there was a major point in the game where there was a huge level changer (like say you were transported to Hell through a portal). So for example in DMC3, you could go from the top of Temen-Ni-Gru in Mission#7 to the beginning of Mission#2 area if you wanted to backtrack all the way. There's no real point to doing this though aside from being able to fight the Hell Vanguard again.


The DMC games have always been pretty linear games especially by today standards. You have a couple of paths that you can go to but by process of elimination you can generally go where you need to. The game has a set route planned out for you, it's not like the Souls games where you can go away from the commonly taken paths.

 

[Monocle]

Lady was such a great character. Then DMC4 fucked it up.

Pls don't hate on Lady's chic style. She rocks the hell out of her new look.

 

[dancingphlower]

Great analysis! I agree completely, I think DMC3 has a great sense of ebb and flow between big action moments and cool down moments. The spacing of the Vergil fights in particular is immaculate, coming in just at the right time as a sort of reality check or test to make sure you're still learning the combat system. Each fight ramps up in difficulty as Vergil is learning and gaining new weapons, the same as you. No other game pulls this off quite as well.

 

[badcrumble]

Great analysis! I agree completely, I think DMC3 has a great sense of ebb and flow between big action moments and cool down moments. The spacing of the Vergil fights in particular is immaculate, coming in just at the right time as a sort of reality check or test to make sure you're still learning the combat system. Each fight ramps up in difficulty as Vergil is learning and gaining new weapons, the same as you. No other game pulls this off quite as well.

Vergil 2's probably my favorite one of them to fight, and I wish there were a version of the boss that had all three of his weapons *and* the ability to cancel his attacks (only Vergil 3 can do that), but got damn I love Vergil 3's ability to brutally punish the player for getting even slightly greedy.

That also reminds me that I wish playable Vergil had the ability to block a la the DMC3 boss. No real need in the combat system for him to have his spin-Yamato-to-block-bullets move, but a simple block would be great (not least for the ability to use it to cancel everything else). Obviously it'd be unfair to let a playable character block while you're getting comboed the way the boss can - it's important that the game be able to punish you - but it'd still be great to have the move available. Obviously DMC4SE's Vergil is plenty flexible and powerful already, heh.

 

[GuardianE]

That also reminds me that I wish playable Vergil had the ability to block a la the DMC3 boss. No real need in the combat system for him to have his spin-Yamato-to-block-bullets move, but a simple block would be great (not least for the ability to use it to cancel everything else). Obviously it'd be unfair to let a playable character block while you're getting comboed the way the boss can - it's important that the game be able to punish you - but it'd still be great to have the move available. Obviously DMC4SE's Vergil is plenty flexible and powerful already, heh.

I can't recall the interview source, but I believe Itsuno wanted to include things like that, but were running out of ways to map it.

But yeah, Vergil is an absolutely key element in establishing the pacing in DMC3. His abilities and skill growth echo your own throughout the adventure, and it's partially through this methodical design and appropriate duel spacing that he is the greatest rival in gaming to me.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You got it wrong. I'm not comparing apple and oranges here, I'm comparing the two best games of the same serie.

Atmosphere is way, way worst than the first episode. It's just a huge backstep from it. And again, I did not compared the story of the first episode to the third one, both are REALLY bad imo, unless DMC1 do not insist on this point as much as DMC3.

But hey, don't need to be so angry about it, that's MY opinion, you can always think otherwise

Why would you think I'm angry? I'm just dissecting your posts for contradictions. I'm not even saying that your personal opinion is wrong (even though I obviously disagree), just that the way you are presenting it makes no sense.

To wit, you're saying that DMC1 is the best game in the series. You are then criticising DMC3's story. This makes no sense because DMC1's story is infinitely worse. This is the very first post where you admit DMC1's story is also bad, which is basically what I was saying in the first place.

For the record I think DMC3's story is among the best in a character action game. Which is a really low bar to set, I know, but at least it gave us genuine twists, and a couple moments that tug at emotional strings (Lady killing Arkham is kind of tough). In the Arkham/Lady dynamic it has a darker turn than most games of this kind and I think it actually pulls it off remarkably well considering the level of acting normally associated with the genre. I also think that, despite what you might think of the game's direction, every single voice actor does a superb job, with special props to Dante, Vergil and Jester. Every single interaction between Dante and Vergil is a joy to watch. Finally, it has given us some of the best action sequences in the genre, without drowning the player in cutscenes. Every cutscene has a reason and a purpose, and none overstay they welcome.

I think it says a lot that most people still fondly remember Lady and this particular game's iteration of Vergil. Compare that to how many fans there are of Mundus, Lucia, Arius, Kyrie, Agnus, Credo or Sanctus. Or, hell, Nero for that matter.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Contrast that to DMC4's boss rush, which is a bunch of bosses you've already fought *twice* (but not the best boss in the game, which is only fought once instead of three times like most of them), mixed with all the fun of the dice minigame.

It really is criminal you got to throw down with Frank fuckin' West (same voice actor) only once.

 

[Astral Dog]

At least that made the Credo fight extra special, one of the few unique bosses fought only once, and the best. Would not have been the same with him being the exact same boss later.
Also well designed around Nero

 

[Weltall Zero]

Lady was such a great character. Then DMC4 fucked it up.

Yeah, this so much. Trish was already supposed to be sexualized (she's basically a succubus), but turning Lady from such an interesting character design to the porn movie version of herself was unforgivable. They even gave her colored glasses to hide her heterochromia, as if they were afraid to have her showing any distinguising or unusual traits that would distract away from her cleavage.

 

[Seyavesh]

oh i just realized the main post doesn't mention something i find really important about the pacing- the credits scene is the best ending/cherry on top for a great finale for like any dang game ever
vergil is the final skill test that challenges you one last time- the credits scene however, is only filled with the lowest level of mooks and the first "boss" you encounter. it's there to serve as you flexing your gained skill/power in comparison to the first mission and holy shit does it work well.
while you maybe kill 12~ guys in the first mission in the credits sequence alone you kill 100 of these guys in the credits, including the boss all within a 4~ minute timespan. there's no 'waves', no pauses- they just keep on pouring in while you're wilin' out

this is why it's so much more effective than the bayo 1/2/dmc4 credits battles imo- those fights are designed as simply extra battles and not a capstone that displays both the playable character's and player's growth

 

[Nemmy]

I must really be missing something about Bayonetta 2 as I repeatedly see it mentioned as an example of great pacing and I found it really bad in that regard (though still better than MGR). The Vigrid part was worse than DMC3's third act backtracking IMO.

 

[Monocle]

I must really be missing something about Bayonetta 2 as I repeatedly see it mentioned as an example of great pacing and I found it really bad in that regard (though still better than MGR). The Vigrid part was worse than DMC3's third act backtracking IMO.

WTF, that's like the highlight of the game.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

while you maybe kill 12~ guys in the first mission in the credits sequence alone you kill 100 of these guys in the credits, including the boss all within a 4~ minute timespan. there's no 'waves', no pauses- they just keep on pouring in while you're wilin' out

I thought it was rather boring because every enemy except the boss died in a single melee hit, boiling it down to nothing more than an uneventful mad dash to the only one worth a damn.

Granted, other games also severely toned down the health pool of enemies in playable credits so often enough they too don't really stimulate, but DMC 3's dragged on.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

For those wondering the DMC HD collection ws like super cheap via sale on PSN. I'm not sure what it is now but it can't be more than 15 bucks.

 

[JumpCancel]

Spelt Bayonetta wrong.

Bayonetta for all its character has cookie cutter combos that boost your multiplier, and relies mostly on witchtime for the majority of time whereas Devil May Cry allows you to create your own combos by linking moves together.

You create the style yourself, or at least to a higher degree.

Bayonetta is much more simple than Devil may Cry 3 and 4 and is easily trumped by both in terms of gameplay.

 

[MegamanXZero]

DMC3 is probably my favorite DMC game of the series. I loved the story, the characters and the system. I really wanted to play as Vergil in the game and I eventually got my wish in DMC3:SE.

The reason why I replayed the game over and over again is mostly due to the pacing of the game.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

That's fair. Then we're talking about a game with movement "options" versus no movement "options." More utilitarian versus more superfluous. It's just one of those things where certain types of players will be more inclined towards one approach over the other. Of course, this is specifically to movement. It extends into a lot of other tenets of each game, but that's definitely not to say there isn't embellishment in NGB as well.

All true. and sorry if I come off as heated, action games can get me like that sometimes and cause me to misread/misinterpret heh

 

[Dahbomb]

oh i just realized the main post doesn't mention something i find really important about the pacing- the credits scene is the best ending/cherry on top for a great finale for like any dang game ever
vergil is the final skill test that challenges you one last time- the credits scene however, is only filled with the lowest level of mooks and the first "boss" you encounter. it's there to serve as you flexing your gained skill/power in comparison to the first mission and holy shit does it work well.
while you maybe kill 12~ guys in the first mission in the credits sequence alone you kill 100 of these guys in the credits, including the boss all within a 4~ minute timespan. there's no 'waves', no pauses- they just keep on pouring in while you're wilin' out

this is why it's so much more effective than the bayo 1/2/dmc4 credits battles imo- those fights are designed as simply extra battles and not a capstone that displays both the playable character's and player's growth

I talked about the credits right at the end under "The end? Or is it?"

 

[Seyavesh]

I talked about the credits right at the end under "The end? Or is it?"

yeah, but not the pacing importance of it- just as an additional action sequence. i think the detail of that section is real important in contrast to the other games that do a similar thing, including dmc4

those feel very token in comparison to dmc3's, like they only exist as a gesture to that sequence rather than having the same purpose