-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Why Devil May Cry 3 Might Be the Best Paced Action Game of All Time
- Thread starter GuardianE
- Start date
i feel like i might be the only person who really loves the enemies in dmc3 (besides the ghosts who are nothing and the big faced angels who can be an irritating pain)
everything else is built at a point to introduce some concept or integrate the concepts you've learned about the combat system as to fight them effectively to some degree.
even the dumb chess pieces which imo are actually kinda great at teaching the player how to jump cancel or switch cancel guns- they're big damage sponges that aren't too dangerous, don't move and have very obvious tells and slow attacks.
they're introduced very late/much later in the game when the player is comfortable with their moveset as to encourage one of three different things to learn: increasing damage with jump cancels, increasing damage with switch cancels (switching weapons and attack) or allowing royal guard style users to get a grip on how to royal block/royal release
each of the seven hells (these are the enemy type that are mooks) is introduced at a point to where you are more familiar with the combat to act as confidence builders of a sort- they're still challenging, but they're 'mooks' designed to have simple patterns and attacks that you can recognize and deal with. at an individual level they're not very threatening but the large groups and mixes they come in with every newly introduced enemy adds a ton of variety and flavor to each encounter.
the exception here is the hell that has the iron maiden which spawns more enemies- that one is introduced straight up as a miniboss and serves as another archetype of enemy that teaches the player to prioritize targets and how to fight on the move rather than sitting there hammering enemies due to the large attack and health pool that they have.
edit:
that almost every enemy has an intro cutscene is also important to that fantastic pacing- they all emphasize within the cutscene the concept of the enemy and what you're supposed to learn/do against them so you're never really left in the dark besides the dumb big face angels
Most of the enemies are designed around a particular style, that's the main issue.
The Chess pieces are enemies designed for Gunslinger. A bit annoying to fight in groups in close range but very effective to take them down with Gunslinger. The Fallen angel enemy is best tackled with Trickster.
The others are designed around specific weapons. Nevan was designed to kill Enigmas, Spiral to kill Soul Eaters. If you don't use those weapons then these enemies become really frustrating in the later difficulties.
In any case the enemies were very simplistic and sometimes even cumbersome to play against if you didn't have the right set up.
The Chess pieces are enemies designed for Gunslinger. A bit annoying to fight in groups in close range but very effective to take them down with Gunslinger. The Fallen angel enemy is best tackled with Trickster.
The others are designed around specific weapons. Nevan was designed to kill Enigmas, Spiral to kill Soul Eaters. If you don't use those weapons then these enemies become really frustrating in the later difficulties.
In any case the enemies were very simplistic and sometimes even cumbersome to play against if you didn't have the right set up.
Spieler Eins
Member
Too much repetition during the final parts. Padding with boss parades is never fun.
Son Of Sparda
Member
That's was a great write up Dahbomb.
DMC1 has some pacing issues when you really sit back and analyze the layouts and when they decided to repeat the boss fights. Still great overall pacing but it's not as clean as what they did with DMC3. The last act of DMC1 is better than 3's last act though mostly because the backtracking segment was handled better.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
shame about the enemy design, puzzles and backtracking being a bit shit
I've given it some thought, and I have to agree. In terms of pure action games, DMC3 does have the best pacing in terms of its mission and story structure. There's a nice flow to getting new story info, beating a boss, getting a new weapon, getting to try out the weapon on some standard enemies, and then repeating the process over again with increasingly high stakes.
That being said, DMC1 had the best setting and enemy designs.
That being said, DMC1 had the best setting and enemy designs.
Chief Devin
Member
Rising's pacing trumps all action games. Fuck whatever else you can say about it. Nothing has ever gave me a rush like the first and final bosses and i've played all the top action games.
Excellent opener and closer but very muddled pacing in the middle act of the game. That's definitely a game where they needed a better ebb and flow of the action because a lot of the time you were just running from enemy groups to enemy groups.
digita1alchemy
Member
The answer to this question is always Contra Hard Corps. Classic and arcade games will always Trump modern games in this regard.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
No lies detected in the OP. DMC3 is the greatest character action game ever made.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
Why dont we still have a Devil May Cry 5 announcement? Dont the crazy japanese people at Capcom realize how much Neogaf loves Devil May Cry 3?
Spring-Loaded
Member
It allowed you to surf on enemies while shooting
That's all it needs to be the best
That's all it needs to be the best
I only compared the atmosphere with the first game, i just pointed out the rest.
Some people in this thread praised the story and setting.
Astral Dog
Member
But what about about Bloodborne?
Bloodborne's pacing (and Souls games in general) varies dramatically on how the player progresses in the game. It's a different case than these more straight forward action games.
Bloodborne is paced fine but the last act could've been better. The last act was visually striking but in terms of intensity it was lacking a bit and it sort of ends before it really picks up pace. Last boss fight is great though.
And then you have to figure out how you factor in the DLC and the 4 major optional areas.
Brian_FETO
Banned
I actually really agree with this. I started MGR and was digging it, but at a certain point I just kind of got bored of it, never finished it.
I'm sure the later fights that everyone always talks about are awesome but (in my opinion) people give it a little more credit than it deserves as a whole. Bosses and QTE's with music are rad but the actual running around fighting stuff is on the lesser side of these kind of games I've played
Jawmuncher
Member
That on rails flying segment tho.....
Demoskinos
Member
Good Pacing and combat is what made Ninja Gaiden Black so damn good. In my mind nothing and I repeat nothing will match or beat Ninja Gaiden Black.
Jay Shadow
Member
I honestly don't remember the pacing cause I stopped and farmed the tram for hours on end in the middle.
badcrumble
Member
DMC3SE has aged better overall and is more replayable, but I'm gonna have to argue that God of War 2 is better paced. (Also RE4 and Uncharted 2 as mentioned in the OP and The Last of Us, but I consider God of War 2 a much closer comparison)
The flying segment at the end is fine because it's like a final victory lap thing. It's harmless at the worst.
The flying section during the Mundus fight is not great but it's only one part of the boss fight.
The two underwater areas are pretty bad in DMC1.
Other issues with DMC1 when it comes to pacing:
* The opening for an action game is mediocre. It's the reason why every action game since DMC3 starts off with a bang. DMC1 starts off with an awkward platforming/item collectathon to unlock the next room and this has you wrestling the controls and camera. This sort of item collectathon isn't really seen in the game again. It was supposed to be a tutorial area but it fails miserably.
*The game's pace doesn't even pick up until the first boss at the end of the 3rd mission. You are just meandering before that with a lot of optional fights that you can just run past. These areas play out like older RE games. There's more exploration than actual enemy combat. This type of pacing is fine for other genres but not for an action game.
*After the Phantom boss fight the game picks up nicely but they thrust you into an on rails escape section against the Phantom RIGHT AFTER you beat it. That was extremely forced and poorly staged IMO, it would be like in DMC3 you beat Cerberus and then as soon as you went into the next room he just comes back to swipe you from off screen. It's bad pacing is what it is and now you are worried that this sequence might happen again in the game but it doesn't.
*Every boss fight is good the first time around but generally unnecessary the second time around. The 2nd Nelo Angelo fight adds nothing, no increased stakes or tension and the fight at that stage ends up being easier than the first time around. The 2nd Griffin fight on top of the ghost ship is an exercise in frustration as you are fighting against the invisible walls on top of the masts and also fighting the camera as you try to beat a giant flying boss. The 2nd Nightmare fight is also equally pointless. These 3 areas of the game needed new bosses but instead older bosses were rehashed which caused pacing issues.
*There's no way around it so I am going to say it... DMC1 is a 7 hour game where 2-3 of those hours are spend backtracking. Once you beat the 2nd Griffin fight you backtrack ALL THE WAY back to the beginning of the game. Oh but it's ok guys, it's night time now. Every single DMC game after that was criticized for having backtracking. DMC4's criticism is fine but criticizing DMC3's backtracking when percentage wise it has far less than DMC1 is a bit baffling to me.
*The final hell area is visually very cool but is the least interesting level design wise than the previous areas in the game. This wouldn't be a problem if it didn't last as long as it did and has you fighting through only 3 types of enemies at the most. Furthermore after you beat the final boss you backtrack through the entire hell area, backtrack through the castle area and end up in one of the beginning areas while being on a timer!
DMC1 is a bonfide classic of an action game and it's the grandfather of the modern stylish action game. The game made me a fan of the series, i absolutely love it and have beaten it in many ways. It's a complete package of game play and audio/visual design but it's not without its flaws. Because of how old it is and its originality it is sometimes treated as a sacred cow when it comes to criticism.
direct_quote
Member
Yah MGR sewer level is shit, after a well structured first level. Also you could tell the game was being rushed around this level.
This is pretty much how I feel (not as extreme though) but I also feel like Bayonetta comes close in the gameplay department(or even exceeds it). I like DMC3's story and crazy scenes but that's pretty much where it ends for me. All of those crazy combo videos you see of DMC3 are neato but it is also extremely excessive and not really how the majority likely plays. It feels good to pull off a combo where it flowed well from start to finish but it just doesn't feel as fluid or nearly as good as Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta to me. Coming off of Ninja Gaiden to DMC3 that was instantly the first thing I noticed about the combat and enemies. 'Oh, a statue that has a lot of HP, let me spam the same 3 or 4 combos over and over til these things go away'. That kind of first impression was really disappointing to me. At that point, I figured 'well, this game must be all about the combos'. I love combos, don't get me wrong, but the amount of HP the enemies have eventually turns the combat into a chore with me mixing things up just enough to keep the combo meter going up but not really being enthused enough to come up with new combos. At times, it even feels downright messy to keep your S rank style up.
I also think the puzzles need some serious work, they just aren't fun and something I always dread doing in DMC games. Gameplay wise, I just don't agree about the pacing. Some of the bosses give you those real good highs like first time Vergil or Beowulf and Mission 8 intro scene but I didn't care about Vergil or the story near the end because the game put me through the ringer by then with the fixed camera shifting when I didn't want it to, lame puzzles with bad platforming, and boss fights that go on for too long, like that Undead Chariot guy later in the game.
It's a good action game but I have always considered it overrated and have 0 desire to replay it anymore than I already have.
God of War 2 has impeccable pacing as well, for sure. It's another one of those rare timeless gems.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
The correct answer, its all very smooth aside from that dumb water level.
It flows much better than DMC3's campaign. For starters, the enemies are all fun to fight and they get better and more interesting at each difficulty level. There's far less downtime when you know where to go. It's about speed over combos, which is fundamentally better for pacing.
The boss fights in DMC3 are a good bit more challenging and interesting, ill give it that.
direct_quote
Member
I was never a fan of NGB's because of the auto-targeting, and the fact you were better off using only a couple combos and weapons throughout the entire game (lower difficulties just spam flying swallow). Never felt I was in control of the combat (and also having to chain UTs is pretty boring imo). I felt with DMC3 you are in control of the combat, combos (no dial a combo), and even the dodging you have more control over where you land (I felt with dodging I would just try to get away without much control, while in DMC you choose the spot you want to dodge to).
I'll say NGB had better enemies and difficulty spikes, but with how the combat plays out I don't have too much desire to replay it.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
Fully agreed that NGB needed a mission select. There are a couple odd itagaki choices in there. Taking out new game plus is another weird choice.
As for bayonetta, no action game with 2 protracted on rails sections that are completely different genres is getting near this list. particularly when the best fight of the game is locked behind one. Same deal in bayo 2 even though the sections are better.
As for bayonetta, no action game with 2 protracted on rails sections that are completely different genres is getting near this list. particularly when the best fight of the game is locked behind one. Same deal in bayo 2 even though the sections are better.
You can speed through DMC3 as well and use very limited combos. That's why Royal Guard and Trickster exist.
Players have SS ranked DMD mode from scratch with no new moves purchased and used lvl1 Styles. At its core it's still a very fundamental based action game. People see some combo videos and think you need to do those combos to be effective at the game when that's not true at all. The combo aspect of the game is where you start the min max process and when you get to that level that's when the game will expand greatly. When your goal moves from "how can I kill these dudes fast" to "how can I optimize my style gain from every enemy before landing the final blow", that's when you really start getting into DMC3.
Remember it's stylish action, not efficient action.
Players have SS ranked DMD mode from scratch with no new moves purchased and used lvl1 Styles. At its core it's still a very fundamental based action game. People see some combo videos and think you need to do those combos to be effective at the game when that's not true at all. The combo aspect of the game is where you start the min max process and when you get to that level that's when the game will expand greatly. When your goal moves from "how can I kill these dudes fast" to "how can I optimize my style gain from every enemy before landing the final blow", that's when you really start getting into DMC3.
Remember it's stylish action, not efficient action.
And it can be played how you want it to be played. You don't need to have to ability to do absurd combos to have fun with the game, but you certainly can if you're disciplined enough to learn.
DMC is about creative freedom in combat. Giving the player options and tools, and then letting them do what they want with them.
The main grievance that people have concerning DMC3's enemies are that they cater themselves too strongly to one particular weaponset or style, which as Seyavesh points out, is a design choice. Perhaps this design choice is to their detriment, but the goal was to encourage experimentation by the player.
direct_quote
Member
Well the good thing about that is that Itsuno recognized this, and that's why DMC4 enemies feel great to fight against. It doesn't help that they are mostly designed around Nero, but they are all fun to fight against (except parasited enemies, fuck that).
Probably why DMC5 will be GOAT, good enemies, hopefully paced like DMC3, higher difficulties (like GMD), and the return of Vergil...
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
better roll mechanics in DMC3? are fucking kidding me? LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goz5QD7E_dI
there's also a lot more wrong, but i told myself i wouldn't get sucked into this one since gaf is DMC/Bayonetta country without many NGB players (which is fine.) so, i'm out.
NGB's movement is really nuanced. There's more to it than meets the eye. But, in the end it's about function over options. They're just two different approaches to overall movement, and some people will prefer one over the other.
Are you serious? Don't be like that. I fucking love NGB, and I'm willing to bet that most DMC fans here do too, even if they have a particular preference. There's plenty of NG love on these forums. There's no right answer here.
Your NG complaints are valid, I even feel the same way, minus the UTs. I just don't prefer the feel of DMC3 at all. With exceptions of charge attacks, I don't like the way attacking feels in DMC comparatively. Gonna have to agree to disagree about the rolling though. I personally feel the jumping and rolling (not that it isn't effective, it is) is a highlighted weak point of 3 and 4. It almost feels like a Dark Souls fat roll to me. The jumping also feels like you're instantly about to come down the moment you jump forward, kinda like that Tonk Hawk 5 slam down mechanic. Lol.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
On VH and MNM and in mission mode, you'll be using every last thing in that vid if you don't want to suck, aside from on-landing jump.
I know. I've played MNM exhaustively on NGB, and cleared most, if not all, of the Mission Mode on MNM. I'm no stranger to these mechanics.
direct_quote
Member
Well I'd agree rolling in DMC3 feels awful, but trickster and the invincibility for jumping feels great for evading. I feel like DMC4 the dodging would be great if they made rolling into a table hopper dodge by default. It also felt in DMC4 that the rolling isn't as bad as in DMC3.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
Then you know that they're not movement "options."
agreed it's two different approaches. I feel NGB is a bit more natural, DMC3 more technical, but that could probably apply to the entirety of both games.
That's fair. Then we're talking about a game with movement "options" versus no movement "options." More utilitarian versus more superfluous. It's just one of those things where certain types of players will be more inclined towards one approach over the other. Of course, this is specifically to movement. It extends into a lot of other tenets of each game, but that's definitely not to say there isn't embellishment in NGB as well.
If Capcom is smart they are going to map Trickster evasion to O/B by default for Dante in DMC5 and redo the style system. Keep the default roll option for people who want to play old school but use a new evasion system for new players.
The roll mechanic is something that has always been one of the learning curves of learning DMC. It's dated nowadays and it doesn't match the brisk pace the game wants you to be playing at. When you see top Dante/Vergil players use those characters in DMC4... ain't no one got time to roll. Nero and the ladies have to roll because they have no better option but even with someone like Nero they would just rather spend a bar to DT and evade a move on the spot to keep the pressure up. Plus Nero at least has the added Table Hopper mechanic on his dodging to keep the pressure up.
They tried to give a dodge button in DmC and it works fine standalone but originally it came at the cost of no lock on. In an era where the Souls borne games exist, there's no reason not to have a lock on and an evasion button available to the player.
By having that universal dodge you can design more aggressive enemies. In the OG DMC games, the enemies are still designed around the same roll that was in DMC1 when the actual characters can run circles around the enemy.
But of course this is a completely separate topic.
The roll mechanic is something that has always been one of the learning curves of learning DMC. It's dated nowadays and it doesn't match the brisk pace the game wants you to be playing at. When you see top Dante/Vergil players use those characters in DMC4... ain't no one got time to roll. Nero and the ladies have to roll because they have no better option but even with someone like Nero they would just rather spend a bar to DT and evade a move on the spot to keep the pressure up. Plus Nero at least has the added Table Hopper mechanic on his dodging to keep the pressure up.
They tried to give a dodge button in DmC and it works fine standalone but originally it came at the cost of no lock on. In an era where the Souls borne games exist, there's no reason not to have a lock on and an evasion button available to the player.
By having that universal dodge you can design more aggressive enemies. In the OG DMC games, the enemies are still designed around the same roll that was in DMC1 when the actual characters can run circles around the enemy.
But of course this is a completely separate topic.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
It's also the best action game of all time.
GIANKRATOS
Member
I always get chills during the credits.
Best action game of all time.
Best action game of all time.
direct_quote
Member
Even if DMC3 has good pacing, I do feel that the second half of the game suffers from too many bad bosses and unfun enemy types. My experience from the first half of the game was always "this is the greatest action game ever", but then comes weird puzzles with fixed camera, Lady, Doppleganger, and Arkham boss fights, and the lesser fun enemy types. I do always have this contention that the first set of enemies were designed with fun engaging experience in mind, and then the later enemies were added for challenge (but aren't really fun to fight at all). Hell also feels pretty underwhelming because you don't explore it much, it's just a slight visit. I think we need the next DMC game to really explore hell more in depth rather than this surface level interaction for the last 3 chapters.
Also I feel that you get front loaded with too many weapons, because you get Cereberus and just when I was getting used to it Agni and Rudra is dropped on my head (which is ultimately a superior weapon). Cereberus doesn't get time to shine and although is a fun weapon in it's own right, lacks damage output and feels less versatile at higher difficulty levels (also needs a launcher outside of sword master). Then the later half of the game you only get Beowful and Kalina Ann. Granted you get 2 new styles, but I was hoping you'd get one more melee weapon towards the end.
Also should have made the Arkham fight against Sparda's embodiment, but I guess they felt have two player sized boss fights back to back would make Vergil's fight underwhelming. But still I'm surprised towards the end they felt that Arkham and Doppleganger would be fun bosses.. I think this is where the tight budget and release schedule was really squeezing Itsuno dry, and he wanted to save more resources for Vergil fight?
Also I feel that you get front loaded with too many weapons, because you get Cereberus and just when I was getting used to it Agni and Rudra is dropped on my head (which is ultimately a superior weapon). Cereberus doesn't get time to shine and although is a fun weapon in it's own right, lacks damage output and feels less versatile at higher difficulty levels (also needs a launcher outside of sword master). Then the later half of the game you only get Beowful and Kalina Ann. Granted you get 2 new styles, but I was hoping you'd get one more melee weapon towards the end.
Also should have made the Arkham fight against Sparda's embodiment, but I guess they felt have two player sized boss fights back to back would make Vergil's fight underwhelming. But still I'm surprised towards the end they felt that Arkham and Doppleganger would be fun bosses.. I think this is where the tight budget and release schedule was really squeezing Itsuno dry, and he wanted to save more resources for Vergil fight?
Similar threads
- Locked