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[arstal]

i think fighting games are pretty great

i've noticed that most people that hate fighting games like a lot of really bad games like rpgs and shit

this is the most important post in this thread pretty much

That's funny. A lot of the FG fans locally are anime fans. Anime fans tend to like RPGs.
Then again I live in an area where Melty is more popular then SF4.

As for Soul Calibur- that 118 moves for mits is vastly overexaggerated.

Many of the moves are the same command done at a different angle (side throws, etc), or stance moves which are pretty intuitive. There are a few ridiculous moves in SoulCal though (such as the multithrows and summon suffering)

I also cry a bit that Mina wasn't even mentioned, even if it was as the character that always sucks character.

The problem is with Setsuka. Why does she have to be a "just frame bitch". She's not overpowered with them, making them more accessible would allow more people to play Setsuka. Why should something be hard when it doesn't HAVE to be hard?

Now natural difficulty, like timing a move perfectly like a reversal DP to beat a meaty, I don't have a problem with that. It shouldn't be a staple move though.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

You have a very annoying habit of making anyone who disagrees with you out to be some kind of incomprehensible retard or detestable scrub. Could you please stop?

Me, and many others, dislike reading big honking lists of moves and combos and trying to cram that info into our heads. You can argue it takes skill... just like any other activity under the sun. Cramming for a chem exam takes skill. But if most people get no enjoyment from exercising that skill.... would it really be absolutely unthinkable to consider that a flaw in the game's design?


How about TvC? That doesn't need a huge amount of memorization, and the game hardly suffers for it. A step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

lol

All I'm saying is if you don't want to invest the time it takes to become good at SF then don't play it. If you don't enjoy the memorization/muscle memory, and dexterity that is required to be good at it... then don't play it.

Never played TvC though. But if you enjoy that you should play it instead of trying to turn street fighter, or anything else, into something that is not.

 

[CPS2]

I just checked a move list. I count 118 moves for "basic" character Mitsurugi. When 118 moves constitutes a "basic" character, I think the point of those who say there is too many is made.

You don't have to memorise 118 moves before you can start playing and having fun. All you need to know are the basic mechanics, some fast close range moves, 2 throws, 1 or 2 low attacks, 1 unblockable, 1 move with good advantage on block, and 1 damaging reliable move. If you know like 5-10 moves you can at least start playing, and take your time to figure out what the other moves do.

Plus a beginner mitsurugi only really needs 2KB, 1 mid and a throw, and you can win against a lot of other beginners.

 

[riskVSreward]

You don't have to memorise 118 moves before you can start playing and having fun. All you need to know are the basic mechanics, some fast close range moves, 2 throws, 1 or 2 low attacks, 1 unblockable, 1 move with good advantage on block, and 1 damaging reliable move. If you know like 5-10 moves you can at least start playing, and take your time to figure out what the other moves do.

Plus a beginner mitsurugi only really needs 2KB, 1 mid and a throw, and you can win against a lot of other beginners.

"But I don't want to have to check out the basic moves online! I want to inherently know what moves are most useful the first time I pick it up, based upon how my brain works for me personally. Taking 5 minutes to read up on the basics is WORK AND BORING!"

 

[arstal]

You don't have to memorise 118 moves before you can start playing and having fun. All you need to know are the basic mechanics, some fast close range moves, 2 throws, 1 or 2 low attacks, 1 unblockable, 1 move with good advantage on block, and 1 damaging reliable move. If you know like 5-10 moves you can at least start playing, and take your time to figure out what the other moves do.

Plus a beginner mitsurugi only really needs 2KB, 1 mid and a throw, and you can win against a lot of other beginners.

With SC4, I honestly just started hitting some buttons, figuring some moves out, then experimenting on weaker players to learn more moves and what they did. I'd be playing SC4 to this day still if the game had a shred of balance and decent online play.

 

[CPS2]

"I have trouble memorising how to block 2KB, it is all about memorisation after all!"

 

[Brashnir]

You don't have to memorise 118 moves before you can start playing and having fun. All you need to know are the basic mechanics, some fast close range moves, 2 throws, 1 or 2 low attacks, 1 unblockable, 1 move with good advantage on block, and 1 damaging reliable move. If you know like 5-10 moves you can at least start playing, and take your time to figure out what the other moves do.

Plus a beginner mitsurugi only really needs 2KB, 1 mid and a throw, and you can win against a lot of other beginners.

Sure, and that's valid, but there comes a point where there's so many moves, you wonder why they have to even exist at all.

I'm not saying SC has reached or surpassed that point - I actually enjoyed the early games in the series quite a bit, though I haven't played 3 or 4 personally.

I don't necessarily think the mechanics of existing games/franchises should be changed, (lots of people already obviously enjoy them they way they are) but I'd like to see some more new fighting games focused on different aspects of gameplay.

For example, I'd like to see a game like Power Stone without the items and maybe a couple more moves per character. Existing fighting game fans probably wouldn't like it, but I expect that a market for a game like that does exist.

 

[riskVSreward]

Sure, and that's valid, but there comes a point where there's so many moves, you wonder why they have to even exist at all.

The reason why there are so many moves is revealed to the people who spend hundreds of hours playing the game and not to someone like you or I that has little interest in playing SC competitively.

I don't necessarily think the mechanics of existing games/franchises should be changed, (lots of people already obviously enjoy them they way they are) but I'd like to see some more new fighting games focused on different aspects of gameplay.

For example, I'd like to see a game like Power Stone without the items and maybe a couple more moves per character. Existing fighting game fans probably wouldn't like it, but I expect that a market for a game like that does exist.

I agree, Power Stone is pretty awesome and it's a game that nearly everyone can just pick up and play. If they made a third game, it would likely rule.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Me, and many others, dislike reading big honking lists of moves and combos and trying to cram that info into our heads. You can argue it takes skill... just like any other activity under the sun. Cramming for a chem exam takes skill. But if most people get no enjoyment from exercising that skill.... would it really be absolutely unthinkable to consider that a flaw in the game's design?
.

There's nothing preventing you from getting a "D" though. You can not study and play at a D level all you want.

Though I do think fighting games could help players more into the ease of entry. If the game isn't fun at the D level, then it could considered a flaw from your perspective. But I guess this depends on your tolerance for a difficulty curve. Nowadays, for normal gamers it isn't all that high. Understandably fighting games will have that niche appeal. Why play a game that has work in it? Well, from what I've experienced, the people who play fighting games (even to some extent the casual crowd) take pride in the work; their abilities that they can do on the screen. So it takes someone like that to enjoy it. If you don't have that, then the fighting game won't appeal to you, A or D level.

 

[danmaku]

You have a very annoying habit of making anyone who disagrees with you out to be some kind of incomprehensible retard or detestable scrub. Could you please stop?

Me, and many others, dislike reading big honking lists of moves and combos and trying to cram that info into our heads. You can argue it takes skill... just like any other activity under the sun. Cramming for a chem exam takes skill. But if most people get no enjoyment from exercising that skill.... would it really be absolutely unthinkable to consider that a flaw in the game's design?

Yes, because it's not a flaw. It's a design choice. If a move (or a combo) is difficult to execute it means it's powerful and so it should be hard to learn and sometimes you won't be able to execute it during a match because you'll fuck up some inputs. Games like Street Fighter or BlazeBlue are designed to be like that. You don't like it? play games like Smash Bros, that put the complexity elsewhere.

 

[riskVSreward]

There's nothing preventing you from getting a "D" though. You can not study and play at a D level all you want.

Though I do think fighting games could help players more into the ease of entry. If the game isn't fun at the D level, then it could considered a flaw from your perspective. But I guess this depends on your tolerance for a difficulty curve. Nowadays, for normal gamers it isn't all that high. Understandably fighting games will have that niche appeal. Why play a game that has work in it? Well, from what I've experienced, the people who play fighting games (even to some extent the casual crowd) take pride in the work; their abilities that they can do on the screen. So it takes someone like that to enjoy it. If you don't have that, then the fighting game won't appeal to you, A or D level.

Good post. There's no rule that you have to be the very best technical player in order to enjoy the game. Although it would be nice if they started including legitimate training modes, along the lines of VF 4: EVO, so beginners could be taught the full breadth of the engine within the game itself.

I do in fact enjoy the work. I love hitting a one frame link consistently or Ken's DP FADC to EX Air Tatsu to Ultra (for example) because it makes lesser players go "oh shit, how did he do that!?" When I'm in training mode and I see my abilities' consistency progress, it makes it all so rewarding. That's part of the execution barrier, you can stomp someone with pure mind games, or you can annihilate someone who simply can't perform on the same level as you. Both ways are pretty fun to me.

 

[remz]

How about TvC? That doesn't need a huge amount of memorization, and the game hardly suffers for it. A step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

omfg haha it's not like TvC has an amazingly less amount of memorization then either BB or SF

 

[arstal]

Good post. There's no rule that you have to be the very best technical player in order to enjoy the game. Although it would be nice if they started including legitimate training modes, along the lines of VF 4: EVO, so beginners could be taught the full breadth of the engine within the game itself.

I do in fact enjoy the work. I love hitting a one frame link consistently or Ken's DP FADC to EX Air Tatsu to Ultra (for example) because it makes lesser players go "oh shit, how did he do that!?" When I'm in training mode and I see my abilities' consistency progress, it makes it all so rewarding. That's part of the execution barrier, you can stomp someone with pure mind games, or you can annihilate someone who simply can't perform on the same level as you. Both ways are pretty fun to me.

I'd probably be categorized as a B player. I understand the progression, but that doesn't mean that how your progress is right. The second way is no fun for the guy getting stomped on. He can learn how to mindgame, he can't necessarily learn how to execute.

I'm not saying high-execution games shouldn't exist, but I am saying that there should be some lower-execution games, and SF should be one of those games given it's mass appeal.

Also oftentimes chars aren't picked in fighters because their execution is seriously harder then others , and they aren't stronger for it. Compare Viper to Ryu here. Why play Viper when you can play a massively easier and somewhat stronger character (assuming playing to win)? If you take out the variance in execution difficulty some, you'd end up with more diversity- and a more fun game.

 

[mugwhump]

Again, you're stating that no one is having fun training/practicing/learning when that is clearly wrong.
Edit: Ok, you said most people not exactly "no one." But the point still stands... there are actually people out there who enjoy the process.

I'll also go ahead and state that most people do not enjoy having hot wax poured on their genitals, but hey! There's a thriving bdsm community out there.

Yes, because it's not a flaw. It's a design choice. If a move (or a combo) is difficult to execute it means it's powerful and so it should be hard to learn and sometimes you won't be able to execute it during a match because you'll fuck up some inputs. Games like Street Fighter or BlazeBlue are designed to be like that. You don't like it? play games like Smash Bros, that put the complexity elsewhere.

Hmmm, you know what? I think that's the problem with the genre. There's tons of BlazBlues and Soul Caliburs, but very few smash bros. It's like, what if 90% of the porn industry was bdsm. If you wanted something that was deeply satisfying but not too extreme, you'd have almost no options. Plus there would be porn elitists everywhere telling you to stop watching porn if it's too hardcore for you. Wouldn't that suck?

Spoiler

tl;dr fighting games = bondage sadism and masochism

 

[Pandaman]

I'd probably be categorized as a B player. I understand the progression, but that doesn't mean that how your progress is right. The second way is no fun for the guy getting stomped on. He can learn how to mindgame, he can't necessarily learn how to execute.

I'm not saying high-execution games shouldn't exist, but I am saying that there should be some lower-execution games, and SF should be one of those games given it's mass appeal.

wtf? SF got that mass appeal as a 'high execution' game, why would they ruin a successful franchise by pandering to lazier players?

if people want lower execution games, it should be a seperate franchise or a party fighter like smash.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

I'm not saying high-execution games shouldn't exist, but I am saying that there should be some lower-execution games, and SF should be one of those games given it's mass appeal.

But that isn't what made SF popular, so why change it drastically? If it is changed will it still hold the same mass appeal?

Anyway, I'd argue SF offers plenty to new players. They can still hop in and do cool special moves, supers, and ultras without much effort. Then start to learn footsies and basic strats. Then down the road if they stick with it they'll learn the combos and advanced strats. Shit doesn't have to all be given to the player within 10 minutes of playing for the first time.

Also, losing when you're a new player isn't bad. If you're losing it's because the other peson is better than you. If they're better than you it's possible you might be able to learn something from playing them? I don't get the need to have everything dumbed down so the player feels like they're doing amazing shit right off the bat. There is nothing rewarding about that.

 

[riskVSreward]

I'm not saying high-execution games shouldn't exist, but I am saying that there should be some lower-execution games, and SF should be one of those games given it's mass appeal.

WHY!? It wouldn't be Street Fighter anymore if they overhauled the controls along the lines of Smash. Execution is a part of the game, end of discussion. If you aren't willing to practice, you aren't going to get any better at the game. Every time I hear someone say "Oh, I knew I had to DP that, but it didn't come out. I would have won if it did!" Guess what? You need to practice. That's like saying "I knew how to beat Usain Bolt, I just had to run faster than him. If I could, I would've won!" Or "I knew how to match him in that guitar battle, I just had to play the Persian scale. I just can't play quarter notes at 200 bpm. If I could, I would have won!" You simply don't have the skills and it's because you aren't willing to practice. Instead of wishing that a game changes to fit your criteria for "enough practice" move on to a game that more closely matches your strengths.

SF4 already made enough concessions by increasing the window for reversals and adding shortcut commands to make many commands so much simpler. It's the most mainstream, easy to learn SF game to date.

 

[eggandI]

lol

All I'm saying is if you don't want to invest the time it takes to become good at SF then don't play it. If you don't enjoy the memorization/muscle memory, and dexterity that is required to be good at it... then don't play it.

Never played TvC though. But if you enjoy that you should play it instead of trying to turn street fighter, or anything else, into something that is not.

You seem to be getting offended at a lot of the posts in this thread. lol. Somehow I don't think capcom is going to look at some random post in this thread and go Yeah this is it let's change street fighter cause of this post. It's like you are just scared of people voicing their opinions (stupid as they may be..)

Chill brah.

 

[blackadde]

if my seven year old self could remember all the moves in sf2, i'm sure you guys will manage somehow.

 

[arstal]

WHY!? It wouldn't be Street Fighter anymore if they overhauled the controls along the lines of Smash. Execution is a part of the game, end of discussion. If you aren't willing to practice, you aren't going to get any better at the game. Every time I hear someone say "Oh, I knew I had to DP that, but it didn't come out. I would have won if it did!" Guess what? You need to practice. That's like saying "I knew how to beat Usain Bolt, I just had to run faster than him. If I could, I would've won!" Or "I knew how to match him in that guitar battle, I just had to play the Persian scale. I just can't play quarter notes at 200 bpm. If I could, I would have won!" You simply don't have the skills and it's because you aren't willing to practice. Instead of wishing that a game changes to fit your criteria for "enough practice" move on to a game that more closely matches your strengths.

SF4 already made enough concessions by increasing the window for reversals and adding shortcut commands to make many commands so much simpler. It's the most mainstream, easy to learn SF game to date.

I'm not saying make it Smash easy. LOL you guys misinterpret bigtime. Here would be what I'd do to make the execution easier:

Holding down a button inputs the normal command five times, like how Blazblue does it, unless you're going for a focus attack

FADC motion would be a single tap forward or back, not a double. Charge movers would keep their charge if they had it for a few frames after the FADC.

inputting a throw break while in disadvantage would count as a throw break on the first avaliable frame, provided no other buttons were pressed. This would stop Ryu/Rog online jab/throw spam. Jab/throw is a valid tick throw, but online it's too good. This would not hurt offline much, as it's easier to read offline, and could still be mixed up.

Chicken Wing and Hooligan would get their HDR inputs. Tenshin would become hcb+P to avoid overlap.

Viper could tap up for a SJC if she can't do this already (I don't know what it takes, I don't play Viper)

Button Mash moves would require 3 inputs, not 5.

None of those changes would ruin the game in any way, shape, or form, or destroy balance.

If Smash=low execution, I'd want SF to be Medium execution.

 

[eggandI]

I'm not saying make it Smash easy. LOL you guys misinterpret bigtime. Here would be what I'd do to make the execution easier:

Holding down a button inputs the normal command five times, like how Blazblue does it, unless you're going for a focus attack

FADC motion would be a single tap forward or back, not a double. Charge movers would keep their charge if they had it for a few frames after the FADC.

inputting a throw break while in disadvantage would count as a throw break on the first avaliable frame, provided no other buttons were pressed. This would stop Ryu/Rog online jab/throw spam. Jab/throw is a valid tick throw, but online it's too good. This would not hurt offline much, as it's easier to read offline, and could still be mixed up.

Chicken Wing and Hooligan would get their HDR inputs

Viper could tap up for a SJC if she can't do this already (I don't know what it takes, I don't play Viper)


Button Mash moves would require 3 inputs, not 5.

I see why you're not making any friends in this thread

This is very much like the whole starcraft APM/micro fiasco. A lot of the pro players love their senseless clicking and ultra micro because it gives them something to OCD over/more things to destroy others with/tickles their epenis/etc. I think capcom would get a lot of flack from the FG community if they did away with the arbitrary difficulty (strict links, cancels, etc). I don't think they are about to take that risk.

 

[riskVSreward]

I'm not saying make it Smash easy. LOL you guys misinterpret bigtime. Here would be what I'd do to make the execution easier:

Holding down a button inputs the normal command five times, like how Blazblue does it, unless you're going for a focus attack

FADC motion would be a single tap forward or back, not a double. Charge movers would keep their charge if they had it for a few frames after the FADC.

inputting a throw break while in disadvantage would count as a throw break on the first avaliable frame, provided no other buttons were pressed. This would stop Ryu/Rog online jab/throw spam. Jab/throw is a valid tick throw, but online it's too good. This would not hurt offline much, as it's easier to read offline, and could still be mixed up.

Chicken Wing and Hooligan would get their HDR inputs

Viper could tap up for a SJC if she can't do this already (I don't know what it takes, I don't play Viper)


Button Mash moves would require 3 inputs, not 5.

If Smash=low execution, I'd want SF to be Medium execution.

Look man, I would like to think that all 1 frame links should be 2 frames. Why? Because it would be easier for me to do, lol. That's not a good basis for making a competitive game though. Even still, there's gonna be someone else who would pine that they should be 5 frame links, or mash moves should require 2 inputs. You'd like to think the buck stops with your idea of ease of execution, but whats enough for you may not be enough for everyone.

Do you really think those adjustments would make everyone in the whole world happy, or just you?

Do you think people complaining about the execution even know what the fuck a link is?

 

[arstal]

Look man, I would like to think that all 1 frame links should be 2 frames. Why? Because it would be easier for me to do, lol. That's not a good basis for making a competitive game though. Even still, there's gonna be someone else who would pine that they should be 5 frame links, or mash moves should require 2 inputs. You'd like to think the buck stops with your idea of ease of execution, but whats enough for you may not be enough for everyone.

Do you really think those adjustments would make everyone in the whole world happy, or just you?

I think it would make more people happy, and increase the base of competitive players. Some SRK diehards would bitch, but they'd get over it, and then have fun playing the game. A few would ragequit, but most of those people would just be salty that their comparative advantage wouldn't let them gimmick people out.

Also, making things easier could result in move overlaps, in which case you'd get people getting specials out accidentally. 3 inputs that's not going to happen, 2 it would.

You can't make everyone happy, that's a strawman argument.

 

[mclem]

I don't see the big difference between smash memorization and SF memorization.

At the top level, they're much the same.

At the 'having fun' level, though, I'd say: In Smash, your options are *intuitive* once you've got the basic controls understood; it's very easy to convert "what I want to do" to "what controls I need to do it", and your options are pretty apparent early on - that's enough information to play adequately and enjoy yourself.

"But I don't want to have to check out the basic moves online! I want to inherently know what moves are most useful the first time I pick it up, based upon how my brain works for me personally. Taking 5 minutes to read up on the basics is WORK AND BORING!"

I don't think it's so much "Taking 5 minutes to read up on the basics is WORK AND BORING!" as the fact that the game should *present* the basics to you adequately, and many just don't really bother.

Perhaps the key would simply be a *good* (optional, naturally) tutorial. Not just throwing information at the player, and giving them a dummy to hit to test things, but introducing concepts one-by-one with setpiece encounters designed to test them. Indeed, I find it hard to believe that no (non-Smash, that is) fighter has ever attempted to do so, is there an example of a fighting game that tries to teach you how to play it?

 

[toastyToast]

The inputs in Street Fighter are quite simple, also the case with Blazblue. I think it starts to get difficult when jump cancelling and dashes/air dashes are involved but very few characters ever require a lot of dexterity. The charge characters are quite easy to play with especially with a stick.

Speaking of sticks, the difficulty associated with fighting game inputs is because people are used to play console games with pads which these games obviously weren't designed for.

 

[riskVSreward]

I think it would make more people happy, and increase the base of competitive players. Some SRK diehards would bitch, but they'd get over it, and then have fun playing the game. A few would ragequit, but most of those people would just be salty that their comparative advantage wouldn't let them gimmick people out.

Also, making things easier could result in move overlaps, in which case you'd get people getting specials out accidentally. 3 inputs that's not going to happen, 2 it would.

You can't make everyone happy, that's a strawman argument.

Your ideas for improvements show two things:

1) You know more about the game than your average player, but have hit a plateau and would rather the game come down in difficulty than just keep practicing.

2) I would be hesitant to put you in a "B rank" based upon skill.

 

[riskVSreward]

Perhaps the key would simply be a *good* (optional, naturally) tutorial. Not just throwing information at the player, and giving them a dummy to hit to test things, but introducing concepts one-by-one with setpiece encounters designed to test them. Indeed, I find it hard to believe that no (non-Smash, that is) fighter has ever attempted to do so, is there an example of a fighting game that tries to teach you how to play it?

I already said this was a good idea, and yes, VF4:EVO has a very detailed training mode.

 

[arstal]

Your ideas for improvements show two things:

1) You know more about the game than your average player, but have hit a plateau and would rather the game come down in difficulty than just keep practicing.

2) I would be hesitant to put you in a "B rank" based upon skill.

1) you're probably right. My problems are mostly execution, and it's something I've practiced for years, but never gotten. There is a strong correlation between tourney results and ease of execution. I used to be a fairly dominant SamSho player. That said, that doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. I do believe it's more important to expand the base then maintain something which doesn't improve the mindgame.

Also, one other factor: FG players are getting older. Older= slower input speed.

2) I am B rank. I can beat low-rank tourney players, mid-rank ones I go even with. Your name players who win Evo will curbstomp me, though in ST I have beaten a couple of name players at times, I've never won a tourney in it. I've only won tournies in SNK games, and I'm sure if I went to China or a place that played KOF, I'd be B rank over there also.

What you're seeing here is the classic Sirlinista vs Anti-Sirlinista argument. This is the health care debate of the FGC.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

I'm not saying make it Smash easy. LOL you guys misinterpret bigtime. Here would be what I'd do to make the execution easier:

Holding down a button inputs the normal command five times, like how Blazblue does it, unless you're going for a focus attack

That works in BlazBlue because the game is heavily juggle based. It doesn't matter if the player gets every normal they want from a button press because there is still a lot of skil in the timing of that normal. That timing can be on a per character basis. Timing can be radically different from one matchup to another. In a lot of cases certain combos only work against certain characters. SF doesn't work this way. If you give a 5 frame input window these combos are going to become automatic.

FADC motion would be a single tap forward or back, not a double. Charge movers would keep their charge if they had it for a few frames after the FADC.

I guess. I don't see how removing one tap will make a difference. And why make dashing different in a combo than when not in a combo? Isn't that needless memorization and complexity?

inputting a throw break while in disadvantage would count as a throw break on the first avaliable frame, provided no other buttons were pressed. This would stop Ryu/Rog online jab/throw spam. Jab/throw is a valid tick throw, but online it's too good. This would not hurt offline much, as it's easier to read offline, and could still be mixed up.

Your complaint should be with the netcode, not tick throws. The tech window on throws is already pretty ridiculously big.

Chicken Wing and Hooligan would get their HDR inputs. Tenshin would become hcb+P to avoid overlap.

I can agree with this. Makes no sense that Sagat got the easier motion while these characters are stuck with legacy inputs people aren't fond of.

Viper could tap up for a SJC if she can't do this already (I don't know what it takes, I don't play Viper)

I don't play Viper... but it seems like with only tapping up you might get a lot of super jump cancels you didn't intend to do. And why would you want super jumps to function different in a combo and when not in a combo? Isn't that more needless complication and memorization?

Button Mash moves would require 3 inputs, not 5.

Sure, whatever.

None of those changes would ruin the game in any way, shape, or form, or destroy balance.

Maybe. Maybe not. Playing Theory Fighter doesn't mean shit until you can actual test a gameplay mechanic change. You have no idea how some of these would react in the current engine.

If Smash=low execution, I'd want SF to be Medium execution.

You should find another game that was designed with "medium" execution. Whatever that is. Not want to change SF into something it has never been.

 

[mclem]

What you're seeing here is the classic Sirlinista vs Anti-Sirlinista argument. This is the health care debate of the FGC.

Sooooo... manufactured to provoke outrage?

 

[Pandaman]

I'm not saying make it Smash easy. LOL you guys misinterpret bigtime. Here would be what I'd do to make the execution easier:

Holding down a button inputs the normal command five times, like how Blazblue does it, unless you're going for a focus attack

that would kill negative edge.

FADC motion would be a single tap forward or back, not a double.

is this even a problem? :lol

inputting a throw break while in disadvantage would count as a throw break on the first available frame, provided no other buttons were pressed. This would stop Ryu/Rog online jab/throw spam. Jab/throw is a valid tick throw, but online it's too good. This would not hurt offline much, as it's easier to read offline, and could still be mixed up.

it would completely kill throws. "oops, he hit me, option select throw tech." there'd be no reason not to do it. Besides, the tech window online isn't terribly bad and i really dont think gameplay concessions should be made for netcode. street fighter is still an offline focused game after all.

Chicken Wing and Hooligan would get their HDR inputs. Tenshin would become hcb+P to avoid overlap.

okay.

Viper could tap up for a SJC if she can't do this already (I don't know what it takes, I don't play Viper)

i dont play her either, but i'd guess it would take a superjump command. [down, up]

Button Mash moves would require 3 inputs, not 5.

why? i thought holding down a button = 5 inputs.

 

[KTOOOOM]

FIGHTING GAMES HAVE MEMORIZATION HURR DURR and THE CONTROLS ARE SO COMPLEX HURR DURR.

:lol

 

[riskVSreward]

1) you're probably right. My problems are mostly execution, and it's something I've practiced for years, but never gotten. There is a strong correlation between tourney results and ease of execution. I used to be a fairly dominant SamSho player. That said, that doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. I do believe it's more important to expand the base then maintain something which doesn't improve the mindgame.

2) I am B rank. I can beat low-rank tourney players, mid-rank ones I go even with. Your name players who win Evo will curbstomp me, though in ST I have beaten a couple of name players at times, I've never won a tourney in it. I've only won tournies in SNK games, and I'm sure if I went to China or a place that played KOF, I'd be B rank over there also.

What you're seeing here is the classic Sirlinista vs Anti-Sirlinista argument. This is the health care debate of the FGC.

This debate between you and I is so far ahead of what this thread is originally addressing. If all of your proposed ideas were implemented, the "mainstream" wouldn't even notice. What it would do is cause people who are already familiar with SF to have an easier time playing at a higher level. Like I said, I would love it if there was no such thing as a 1 frame link, I would be a much better player because of it. However, I'm more interested in getting better within the confines of the game as opposed to wishing for an easier one. I'll never have 8 hours a day to run execution drills ala JWong, thus, I will never be able to compete on his level. This doesn't bother me though, I'm in it to learn what I can and have as much fun as I can, not to be the very best player in the country/world.

Btw, did you just coin "Sirlinista" because I absolutely love it. :lol

why? i thought holding down a button = 5 inputs.

:lol :lol Sorry bro, you clearly didn't think your ideas through very much.

 

[arstal]

That works in BlazBlue because the game is heavily juggle based. It doesn't matter if the player gets every normal they want from a button press because they is still a lot of skil in the timing of that normal. That timing can be on a per character basis. Timing can be radically different from one matchup to another. In a lot of cases certain combos only work against certain characters. SF doesn't work this way. If you give a 5 frame input window these combos are going to become automatic.

You're complaint should be with the netcode, not tick throws. The tech window on throws is already pretty ridiculously big.


I don't play Viper... but it seems like with only tapping up you might get a lot of super jump cancels you didn't intend to do. And why would you want super jumps to function different in a combo than when not in a combo? Isn't that more needless complication and memorization?

Maybe. Maybe not. Playing Theory Fighter doesn't mean shit until you can actual test a gameplay mechanic change. You have no idea how some of these would react in the current engine.

If Smash=low execution, I'd want SF to be Medium execution.

[/QUOTE]

The Blazblue thing. All that would do is get rid of the huge punishes for being 1 frame off on a link, and hurt people who mash DP recklessly like is encouraged now. This would then lead to more people trying offense, especially at the level most long-term players end up playing it. The combos wouldn't become automatic, but decent players could land them a LOT easier, and that would massively help gameplay at that level become less degenerate.

This would have a marginal effect on tourney-level play, outside of maybe introducing a few new players into that level. It wouldn't allow me to fight Justin Wong. It might put Choi or Arturo over Wong though.

Yeah, SF4's netcode does blow. That said, if you can make a marginal change that hurts lag abuse tactics, you should do it. It would be a marginal change at high level, especially since you can't throw break in SF4 if you're in recovery, and it wouldn't change throw break window in a neutral state.

The tap up- what knowledge player would randomly tap up while trying for a combo?

Wow, GAF moves fast. One other thing, thank god for GAF, this couldn't take place in SRK without some troll going way over the edge.

Sirlinista= first time I"ve used it.

Killing negative edge is OK if the rewards outweigh the drawbacks. It would be less valuable anyways even if it still existed.

Oh, HDR was changed to a largely medium-execution game from a high-execution one. Many players liked the change, a vocal minority disliked the change but are more then willing to deal with it, and have just as much fun with the game. SF4 does have the same timeframe to do specials as HDR, which is one of the changes HDR made (15 frames)

The option select throw issue, that can be solved by not allowing db+lp+lk to cause any attack to come out. Option select throw is an issue in general though, and so not solving it doesn't make my ideas less valid. I'd be open to better solutions to getting rid of it.

 

[haunts]

CHILL METER: MAX!

 

[CPS2]

People will just start talking about chill meter spammers mothers until they switch to the other kind.

 

[viewtiful_dru]

I definitely agree that some of the arbitrarily difficult/overlapping motions in SF and other games should be changed. On that note however, even if you DO make the motions easier, there will still eventually be hard to execute moves/combinations/techniques and what have you that users will find out just from the course of playing the game. Even in Melee, a Smash game which is supposed to have "easy" or "easier" execution, there were things that were hard to execute, like waveshines, something players discovered over time.

In the end you can't change any (fighting) game enough that memorization wont be an aspect of it.

 

[riskVSreward]

snip

Dude, just look at all of the adjustments you had to make in order to fit your original adjustments into the game. Why don't you take these ideas and wish for there to be an entirely new game that fits these guidelines as opposed to shoehorning them into SF4.

CHILL METER: MAX!

 

[Shouta]

Everyone complaining about too many moves should go play Gundam vs Gundam Next because that's the perfect game for high-level play but simple inputs even though it's not a fighting game.

 

[Rafaelcsa]

I think it's fine that complex fighting games exist, but I'd definitely welcome more new franchises which simplify things like Smash Bros. I'm not a fighting game enthusiast, nor do I intend to be, but I do enjoy playing a fighting game every now and then with friends. I'm sure there's a market for simpler fighting games, as Smash Bros proves. It may have a competitive community, but I'm sure Brawl didn't sell 10+ million copies only because of the hardcore Smash fans (or the Nintendo fanatics, for that matter). It'd be nice to have a few more series which tap into this market. No need to change existing franchises into something else, though, since they already have their fanbase.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

The Blazblue thing. All that would do is get rid of the huge punishes for being 1 frame off on a link, and hurt people who mash DP recklessly like is encouraged now. This would then lead to more people trying offense, especially at the level most long-term players end up playing it. The combos wouldn't become automatic, but decent players could land them a LOT easier, and that would massively help gameplay at that level become less degenerate.

There has to be a better way to handle 1 frame links than the BlazBlue way. That is great for BB since it is juggle based. Not SFIV.

This would have a marginal effect on tourney-level play, outside of maybe introducing a few new players into that level. It wouldn't allow me to fight Justin Wong. It might put Choi or Arturo over Wong though.

Havign automatic combos might make it easy for more people to compete. I still think the Wongs of the world would curbstomp the shit out of those people anyway. They will still be better than you at every other area of the game. Just because they can land a 1 frame link isn't what makes them the best.

Yeah, SF4's netcode does blow. That said, if you can make a marginal change that hurts lag abuse tactics, you should do it. It would be a marginal change at high level, especially since you can't throw break in SF4 if you're in recovery, and it wouldn't change throw break window in a neutral state.

lol please do not mess with the window to tech throws in any scenario. It's already bad enough.

The tap up- what knowledge player would randomly tap up while trying for a combo?

So uh... Like I said I don't really play Viper. I just posed a what if. I could see anything like that, which only requires 1 input, to fire off unexpectedly. Maybe ask someone who plays here? And my other point still stands. Why do you want these moves to function different when you're in a combo. Shit like that is confusing and needless if you ask me. Same with the 1 input to dash out of FA. When double tapping is almost instant.

Wow, GAF moves fast.

Sirlinista= first time I"ve used it.

Killing negative edge is OK if the rewards outweigh the drawbacks. It would be less valuable anyways even if it still existed.

lol you have obviously never played characters where negative edge can be important.

The option select throw issue, that can be solved by not allowing db+lp+lk to cause any attack to come out. Option select throw is an issue in general though, and so not solving it doesn't make my ideas less valid. I'd be open to better solutions to getting rid of it.

I would hate life without that option select.

 

[arstal]

I definitely agree that some of the arbitrarily difficult/overlapping motions in SF and other games should be changed. On that note however, even if you DO make the motions easier, there will still eventually be hard to execute moves/combinations/techniques and what have you that users will find out just from the course of playing the game. Even in Melee, a Smash game which is supposed to have "easy" or "easier" execution, there were things that were hard to execute, like waveshines, something players discovered over time.

In the end you can't change any (fighting) game enough that memorization wont be an aspect of it.

True enough. You can't get rid of everything, but you can get rid of some things very easily and painlessly. It's when the changes get painful that hard decisions have to be made.

Things that pop up as glitches, you can't stop those, but you can always tweak those for the next game to be more accessible, or get rid of them, depending on whether they're a benefit or detriment to the game.

It's the difference between cutting a $1000 toilet, and a $1000 Kevlar vest for the Army.

 

[BlackTyrano]

The problem isn't that they require memorization, it's that the most common method of beginning to memorize things(practice mode where you're hitting a non-moving dummy with whatever you feel like hitting them with) is ineffective and boring as hell.

Games need better practice modes that actually give you insight into the theory behind the fighting system, the BASIC abilities each character has and HOW/WHEN/WHY THEY'RE USED(face it, 90% of the people playing games don't know the all the basics every fighter shares, let alone the variations and extensions of those basics each fighting game has), and lets them have fun(minigames ala street fighter 2 or smash bros) or gives them a reward(costume pieces a la VF4) while putting these things into practice.

Beating up a practice dummy is not fun or rewarding, and many people don't even know what to do with the mode even if it was fun for them, because there are basic concepts of the games that are never explained anywhere but in online fansites.

 

[TelemachusD]

This is why I've always enjoyed the original Bushido Blade. Fairly simple moves which generally require at most two buttons and possibly a direction. Moves are mostly standard between characters and the even with the various weapons you still use the same basic controls. The thing is that most moves are easily discoverable while just playing the game. The game becomes more about stance, spacing, and timing (which are things you have to learn), and less about having to remember which button combinations make your character do what.

I also always liked the sword to the head=dead "realism" over the dueling health bars of standard fighting games. What I'm trying to say is: Where is my HD Bushido Blade?

 

[V_Arnold]

So uh... Like I said I don't really play Viper. I just posed a what if. I could see anything like that, which only requires 1 input, to fire off unexpectedly. Maybe ask someone who plays here? And my other point still stands. Why do you want these moves to function different when you're in a combo. Shit like that is confusing and needless if you ask me. Same with the 1 input to dash out of FA. When double tapping is almost instant.

Well, nobody who wants an easier game has a right to say what Viper should change or not... simple as that If a simple up would be a normal -> sjc, what will be the difference between a normal jump after a normal, and a sjc after a normal?

Yeah, a few frame, ofc.
But anyways, down is buffered into the movement we we use before the jump, so anyone who is decent enough is good with the current input.

Changing this would not make Viper's game better, nor would it be easier to win with her. Hell, sjc-ing is quite a complicated concept that it would not be appear in a future, watered down "no entry barrier" game...

 

[riskVSreward]

The problem isn't that they require memorization, it's that the most common method of beginning to memorize things(practice mode where you're hitting a non-moving dummy with whatever you feel like hitting them with) is ineffective and boring as hell.

Games need better practice modes that actually give you insight into the theory behind the fighting system, the BASIC abilities each character has and HOW/WHEN/WHY THEY'RE USED(face it, 90% of the people playing games don't know the all the basics every fighter shares, let alone the variations and extensions of those basics each fighting game has), and lets them have fun(minigames ala street fighter 2 or smash bros) or gives them a reward(costume pieces a la VF4) while putting these things into practice.

Beating up a practice dummy is not fun or rewarding, and many people don't even know what to do with the mode even if it was fun for them, because there are basic concepts of the games that are never explained anywhere but in online fansites.

Two things:

I absolutely agree that there should be such a mode, again, I point to VF4: EVO's fantastic tutorial mode.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be a requirement. No other game gives you that level of insight into it's own engine. Does Halo have a mode that fully explains everything about each weapon, about tactics, about spawn points? No, you have to go online and research it yourself if you care to get that good.

 

[Fersis]

Dude, just look at all of the adjustments you had to make in order to fit your original adjustments into the game. Why don't you take these ideas and wish for there to be an entirely new game that fits these guidelines as opposed to shoehorning them into SF4.

Arstal is quoting a Sirling blog about SFIV. And we all know what Sirlin thinks about SFIV.

 

[Pandaman]

Killing negative edge is OK if the rewards outweigh the drawbacks. It would be less valuable anyways even if it still existed.

but i thought the idea was to make the game easier.
negative edge exists to make special commands after normal strings easier by removing some of the finger gymnastics. i dont see how it'd be less valuable compared to your 5 input scheme as you'd either a). still have to lift and push another button or b). you'll mistime and release your kick button late and get stuck with the wrong move coming out. [say another kick if you mashed mk with 4 frames to go when you wanted a punch command]

The option select throw issue, that can be solved by not allowing db+lp+lk to cause any attack to come out. Option select throw is an issue in general though, and so not solving it doesn't make my ideas less valid. I'd be open to better solutions to getting rid of it.

get rid of it? why would you do that? and removing the lk in the option select just makes it even better. atleast with the lk coming out someone could conceivably drop a blockstring and counterpoke. if there's no attack it becomes 'mash throw once for perfect defense from tick setups'

also crazy idea, what if the tick is setup to land on your second frame after block/hitstun? you still wont have time to counter jab.

 

[BlackTyrano]

Two things:

I absolutely agree that there should be such a mode, again, I point to VF4: EVO's fantastic tutorial mode.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be a requirement. No other game gives you that level of insight into it's own engine. Does Halo have a mode that fully explains everything about each weapon, about tactics, about spawn points? No, you have to go online and research it yourself if you care to get that good.

But the basics of Halo are extremely simple and easy to understand. It's really just simple 8-directional movement, point cursor, fire gun, with some guns being better in an obvious way for different situations. Fighting games are a lot more complex at a basic level, and require more work to train newcomers if they want to lead more people to understand and enjoy the genre, and play the game the way it was designed to be played(i.e. not button mashing or spamming special moves).

 

[Ducarmel]

Does anybody remember Evil Zone for the PS1 it was a game that literally was press button to win! The simple gameplay is really cool in my opinion easy enough for noobs to pick up but deep enough for hardcore guys to master. To bad Titus never had a chance to make a sequal, if one was in the works.

I do agree practice mode in most fighting games don't help anybody get better at fighting games. Devs need to seriously rework that part of these games.