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Why do people argue that fighting games have memorization?
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
Wickerbasket
Member
Second post in thread pretty much answered the OPs question.
elrechazao said:
arstal said:
that just frame umbrella is pretty overpowering, well not as crazy as Hilde but it is one of the most rewarding moves if pull off correctly.
Setsuka is a very solid character even without the just frames, with it she's pretty high tier. Almost all her mids are safe and fast, if you can pull off her just moves then more power to you.
Personally i really like how she's made, it makes her unique, you will not find any character with more just frames than her. Namco intentionally made her that way, precision = rewards. while she might not be everyone's cup of tea, there will always be someone that could pull off those moves, which is why fighting games are entertaining sport in the first place.
yea i forgot to mentioned Mina, she's a pretty sad individual, namco practically abandoned her. I forgot Hwang too.
riskVSreward
Member
The netcode is terrible. Not SNK bad, but probably the worst of all the mainstream fighters.eggandI said:
mugwhump said:
True, but the current situation is: there are "complex" fighting games that sell millions of copies (SF4, Tekken) and others still that sell enough to keep releasing sequels (Virtua Fighters, Guilty Gear --> BlazeBlue, KOF13). On the other hand, the "simple" fighting games market is pretty much Smash Bros and nothing else. Capcom tried to go in this direction with its "vs" series, but those games never reached the popularity of Tekken or Street Fighter, so I wonder if there really is a market to begin with.
eggandI said:
can't play a game that's 4 bars or below, it would boil down to "shit i can't block this low and it rings me out, fuck!". It is decent if you get a 5 bar, which... actually only happens if it's local or within the region. I still see people play time to time, not as crowded as tekken but there's still a community (offline). It's a very pretty game too, probably prettiest edit: 3D fighting game out there.
as for market with simple fighters, it'll always be treated as a casual/party game, so it's understandable why they don't see any competetive scene. I think a smashbro tournament is still entertaining to see but that's all there is to it, people want to see people pull off crazy combos or jaw dropping come backs or the douchebags getting own.
hteng said:
SC4 does have a competitive scene still in some areas. Not every game has national appeal.
BTW KOFXII was much simpler then XI, they overdid it though and the game got rejected- mostly due to missing moves/chars/content moreso then the gameplay simplifications though.
As for Setsuka and precision, to me, a better way of doing it in my eyes would be to increase the leniency of the JF, but give the exact JF the full reward, and then a lesser reward for being slightly off. If the move without the JF is unsafe on hit (I don't think it is, but I rarely saw Setsuka outside of Slide messing around with her vs my Mina)- then it's bad design. If there's still some reward, then I'm ok with it.
Sirlin does not hate SFIV. I'm also not quoting verbatim as I disagreed on some things. He just hates some aspects of the game, which is a fair criticism.
As for the removal of negative edge, if you remove many of the game's other barriers, negative edge being gone becomes less of an issue, and you could do special input priority logic to keep it in, I'm sure. (inputs have an order of operation effect due to necessity, like if you hit P, it first checks to see if you did super, then special, then command normal, then multibutton move, then P.)
kara-throws work on this same logic. My solution to karas would be to eliminate the benefit by basing throw range on initial position, but giving Ken a knee bash grab command throw with the same properties (but no throw break, and EX knee bash would do massive stun, so it would be a buff), and buffing throw range for Claw (the other char who benefits, and also needs a buff)
Sorry to go on so many tangents, I just believe if you complain about something, you offer a way to fix the problem, so I'm giving specific examples of how things can be done in an easier fashion without being shoehorns.
BTW I'd call HDR a "simpler" fighter due to its easing of many inputs, and it sold quite well (not SF4 well but it was a DL title), still has an active scene, and gets competitive respect (#2 tourney at Evo)
danmaku said:
Did they really? I recently bought TvC and I don't find it anywhere as acessible as Smash Bros at all. Besides having to play with the booklet open in order to remember each character's specials and super/hyper combos, stuff like Baroque and Mega Crash are still really foreign to me.
This weekend I took the game to a friends gathering where there were some veteran, die-hard Street Fighter II and King of Fighters '98 players, and they were also having difficulty trying to understand TvC.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm fine with TvC being this complex, even if it means I'm not able to actually get into the game. I'm just saying that I don't think the Vs series really taps into the same market as Smash Bros.
BothBarsOn
Member
When I get killed in, say, CoD, I generally think of it as a failure of concentration or of positioning or of basic tactics. When I get mashed to a pulp in SF IV, I tend to think it's because I didn't press the buttons correctly. There's a layer of abstraction missing on fighting games.
gutter_trash
Banned
3D fighters are worse than 2D fighters in terms of memorization
King from Tekken hurts my head in practice mode
2D fighters I can put them down for months and return to them and still get back into them without too much trouble
but not 3D fighters: it is way easier to forget the moves
King from Tekken hurts my head in practice mode
2D fighters I can put them down for months and return to them and still get back into them without too much trouble
but not 3D fighters: it is way easier to forget the moves
viewtiful_dru
Member
you're getting killed in both of those games for the same reason
The beauty of Smash is that the inputs are the same for every character and the results are similar (up B is an up move, etc.), but every character has its own unique moveset. (Well, except the clones, of course, but AFAIK every fighter has clones these days.)
So you take those very simple inputs and you build upon them.
A lot of other fighters have those same basic movesets, too, but they're sometimes UNIQUE to the character, and that's where the trouble comes in. If I learn the inputs for one character, I should know the inputs for all characters. Yes, punches and kicks and jumps are the same input, but then you get into quarter-circle voodoo magic and it's not always the same thing.
At least that's been my experience. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong. I don't mind. Fighting games aren't my forte. Too much commitment for a game type I'm really not that fond of. (Though to be fair I'm not that fond mostly because of how complicated I perceive the games to be.)
Also I played Marvel vs. Capcom 2 for the first time over the weekend at a friend's. WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. THAT. GAME. Once we started drinking, though, it was fun. :3
So you take those very simple inputs and you build upon them.
A lot of other fighters have those same basic movesets, too, but they're sometimes UNIQUE to the character, and that's where the trouble comes in. If I learn the inputs for one character, I should know the inputs for all characters. Yes, punches and kicks and jumps are the same input, but then you get into quarter-circle voodoo magic and it's not always the same thing.
At least that's been my experience. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong. I don't mind. Fighting games aren't my forte. Too much commitment for a game type I'm really not that fond of. (Though to be fair I'm not that fond mostly because of how complicated I perceive the games to be.)
Also I played Marvel vs. Capcom 2 for the first time over the weekend at a friend's. WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. THAT. GAME. Once we started drinking, though, it was fun. :3
Nemesis556 said:
This is pretty vague, but true enough.
I'd say games that require the most memorisation are shmups. Fighters have around the same level as probably... RTS? I don't know. Practicing execution (something people spend large amounts of time on, if they're so inclined) is not the same as memorising. You can hear about a move or combo and just know it exists. Practicing it over and over again is not rote learning. You already know it exists. You're simply practicing execution, which is totally different to memorisation. I think that's probably why the people who play fighting games in this thread have shifted the discussion towards execution. Some people at GAF repeatedly say (basically) kicking a ball into a goal repeatedly is memorisation.
RelentlessRolento
Member
gutter_trash said:
tell that to blaz blue... while there's less special commands I get brain fucked when trying to remember when and how i am suppose to do stuff...
then again I have Tekken running through my veins.
Like the hat?
Banned
i am a button masher. Screw memorizing things.
I'm also terrible at all fighting games that aren't Dead or Alive 2.
I'm also terrible at all fighting games that aren't Dead or Alive 2.
The beauty of Smash Bros is that you learn by playing. You become very good, just by playing the game and learning from your mistakes. Easy Movement, easy System, easy Fun.
Games like Street Fighter on the other hand always need some sort of manuel. I dont know how many times, i tried to play beat n'ups with players new to the game and face the problem of a long discussion how to play the game. You try to explain the combination, the buttons, the move-set, the bars, the system, the diffrence of the characters etc. There is no natural flow. You have to know a lot, before you can really play like it was mean to be. Must the time it end in button-smashing. Beat n'up needs more learning by doing and easy to Play, but hard to master. I dont want to give friends a seminar before i can play with them.
By the way Street Fighter is a exception. Everyone knows the game and most of the combinations.
Games like Street Fighter on the other hand always need some sort of manuel. I dont know how many times, i tried to play beat n'ups with players new to the game and face the problem of a long discussion how to play the game. You try to explain the combination, the buttons, the move-set, the bars, the system, the diffrence of the characters etc. There is no natural flow. You have to know a lot, before you can really play like it was mean to be. Must the time it end in button-smashing. Beat n'up needs more learning by doing and easy to Play, but hard to master. I dont want to give friends a seminar before i can play with them.
By the way Street Fighter is a exception. Everyone knows the game and most of the combinations.
Projectjustice
Banned
If you play like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ120_VMPqM
No you dont need to memorize anything.:lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ120_VMPqM
No you dont need to memorize anything.:lol
BattleMonkey
Member
Because it's true. By your logic every character in every fighting game plays the same and one can be competitive by just having played a previous fighter.
deadmuffin
Member
muscle memory...
yea, but you'd be wrong.TheOneGuy said:
even if you hop around the map in a zig zag while constantly doing crazy ivans, you'll still eventually be shot from a point you simply could not see because the other guy got lucky and saw you first. that'll never happen in a fighting game.
fps's and especially team base fps's have strategy to them, but not in the sense initially described. when you get sniped, the focus is more on securing safe routes and taking gambles on where the enemy is. its more on strategy than an individual player.
CadetMahoney
Member
instant classic, can't believe I missed seeing this one since 2006. "Battle of the Poons" :lolProjectjustice said:
UC1 said:
The fuck is this? Most people here are talking about muscle memory along with rote memorization (for match ups mostly). Rote memorization = "learning" by repetition. That is exactly how you "learn" match ups. You play against a certain character until your eyes bleed. Some people also like to memorize frames for every/some major moves. How do you think they do that? beam information through their ass?
:lol :lol drunken street fighter = most fun I've ever had with the game(s)Projectjustice said:
gutter_trash
Banned
RelentlessRolento said:
oh, I agree... BlazBlue is too fucked up.. I gave up on it really quick. I thought it would be like Guilty Gear X but hell no.. its way too alternative that I traded it in and just quit it.
Manmademan
Member
Metal B said:
I'd say Street fighter is the worst example to use, since it popularized the 2D fighter as we know it, there are a bazillion other fighters that use its combinations. (especially other series made by capcom.) If you've already committed its moveset to memory, most other 2d fighters aren't that hard to jump into- there's usually one guy that plays like ryu to make it easy for someone familiar with that series.
HOWEVER for new players fighters can be horribly obtuse. There's a TON of memorization that simply isn't required for other common genres like FPS, Action/Adventure, etc. Remember the era before the internet, when fighters were big in arcades? not only did you have to memorize special moves, they actually intended for you to discover them by accident and experimentation! The king of the arcade was ALWAYS the guy who knew the moveset the best.
Tekken has combos that are 10 moves long! for about 30 characters! and some characters have MULTIPLE ten string combinations, or chainable moves that must be done in sequence. (King, I'm looking at you here.) And that's before getting into the issue of timing, since just hitting the buttons isn't good enough, you need to get the moves done within a certain timing window, or that move simply will not work.
If you're just looking to button mash and have fun, you'll probably not have much trouble against the CPU on normal difficulty. But playing competitively against someone else? You'll get crushed every time.
Metal B said:
So a fanbase is a gimmick?
Does that mean Nintendo's fanbase... you know, the VERY REASON people even bother with that pile of dung known as Smash Brothers, is also a gimmick? :lol
Edit:
[00:50] <Hitokage> smash bros. is shit
gaf mods agree too!
Fersis: It's not weirdly harsh. I enjoy Smash Brothers for what it is, but there is no denying the fact that Smash only enjoys its success because of its fanservice, whereas OTHER fighting games like Street Fighter, Blazblue and Virtua Fighter went from zero to franchises.
Manmademan
Member
Metal B said:
the truth is that fighters and beat-em-ups are two separate genres, chief.
The truth ALSO is that street fighter didn't roll out of the gate with a built in fanbase, it earned it because the game was really, really fun to play. Hell, street fighter 1 is incredibly obscure. No one played it, few people liked it.
street fighter II? wordwide phenomena.
DryEyeRelief
Member
TheOneGuy said:
The thing about Smash's special attacks is that it's more or less as random as its item design, even though it's not as gamebreaking. You compare to any other fighting game where characters have unique moves but follow a system of logic (in some forms rock, paper, scissors) and it isn't there in smash. Other than that, you do have the unique directional and smash normals, and side stepping and shielding are universally applicable but that variation amounts to a normal 'clone' character in other fighting games.
I guess what I'm trying to say is whenever I switched characters in smash, I more or less applied the same template of logic and strategy with a different set of special attacks. When you switch characters in other fighting games, it is a completely different experience with a completely different mindset/priority. And a lot of these games ask you to become good with a single fighter over trying out everyone based off your preference. I don't know if I would call Smash's uniform input system a strength so much as an easy way of seeing everything the game offers.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Oichi said:
Dammit GAF!
Why are you always late to my hate train?
Ah well, I know it's same as it always has been. Wait five years and GAF will catch up.
So everyone please tell me, where are the big fighting titels that got big sales.
So normal people buy this games, becauce of there great gameplay? A specialty if many fighting game look the same and feel the same for a average player. Two people facing each other on a background. Of cource, everbody played Mortal Komabt first, becauce of his deep fighting system. Dead or Alive 2 got great sales, becauce of his counter-system. Like Dead or Alive volleyball of his volleyball simulation gameplay. Face it. Fighting games need a gimmick to be attraktiv and to look diffrent. I dont say that, there not great games. There only a few games that really look diffrent. Smash Bros. Gimmick are the Nintendo Characters, but i also looks and feels diffrent. I for myself would love to play more fighting games, that break the Street Fighter forumlar.
Street Fighter 2 is the exception of anything. It was the first one and its pop-culture.
PS: Yeah, there is a diffrence betweeb Beat n' Up and Fighting Games. Congratulation you all win the price of been a smart ass.
So normal people buy this games, becauce of there great gameplay? A specialty if many fighting game look the same and feel the same for a average player. Two people facing each other on a background. Of cource, everbody played Mortal Komabt first, becauce of his deep fighting system. Dead or Alive 2 got great sales, becauce of his counter-system. Like Dead or Alive volleyball of his volleyball simulation gameplay. Face it. Fighting games need a gimmick to be attraktiv and to look diffrent. I dont say that, there not great games. There only a few games that really look diffrent. Smash Bros. Gimmick are the Nintendo Characters, but i also looks and feels diffrent. I for myself would love to play more fighting games, that break the Street Fighter forumlar.
Street Fighter 2 is the exception of anything. It was the first one and its pop-culture.
PS: Yeah, there is a diffrence betweeb Beat n' Up and Fighting Games. Congratulation you all win the price of been a smart ass.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Oichi said:
I guess I can speak from anecdotal evidence again that isn't always the case. In fact, one of the more popular complaints is the whole Melee vs Brawl thing, which probably comes from people who could give a rat's ass about Sonic or Pikachu or whatever being in the game. They actually want something that just plays better, in their minds.
Although I don't doubt that it being a mascot fighter has much to do with its success sale wise, there are many people who genuinely gravitate to the gameplay itself.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
mclem said:
This. And this also gets down to the "what is skill" debate.
(For these purposes, I'm talking in terms of combos because they tend to be the most complex and require the most memorization. Yes, I know theres more to fighting games than combos)
If you ask me, skill is knowing when to pull off a combo. Timing, spacing, what beats what. But the actual action of executing the combo doesn't take any skill, just muscle memory. Would it be that terrible if a combo took three inputs instead of seven?
I honestly have to wonder how much you played Smash than, if you felt that playing Pikachu was the same as playing Ike.
Pureauthor
Member
Speaking as an extremely casual fighting game fan (as in, I just muck around with the characters in single player), I don't mind fighting games as they stand.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Because LP RP LK RP LP RP LP RK RP LP
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Metal B said:
It's "Beat'em Up". :|
