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[Zek]

Smash requires far more memorization than most other video games. Other fighting games are in a league of their own in raw memorization, and trying to argue otherwise is frankly laughable. Nobody said that fighting games are nothing but memorization, but there is an absolutely vast learning curve based purely on memorizing moves and move interactions - not just what buttons do what, but what moves all the characters have and how they work.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Also, the dude who said a Dragon Punch is made up of a "Shuryuken", then some other moves, THAT'S the reason people like me don't play fighting games and your genre is reducing itself to a niche, because, as I say "WTF is a Shuryuken?".

man i can't believe i'm the only person to do this but come on squirrel i don't even play fighting games but i know what a goddamn shoryuken is, it's the uppercut thing that ryu and ken do. that's like not knowing what a hadoken is

speaking of which, i was just trying to play SSFII for snes on my wii and i don't know if it's because the classic controller's d-pad sucks bad or if old fighting games are just clunky or what because every time i decide to sit down and try that game i never know what the fuck i'm doin. hit them buttons and i just do a punch, i want guile to do a sonic boom but he won't and then he will and i don't get it and then a cpu dhalsim or e. honda beat me up by spamming yoga flame or that hand slappy thing and the difficulty is set to a little easier and i cry because nothing's working and i don't get how i'm supposed to press like five buttons in a row to do something without looking silly

 

[Hitokage]

Smash requires far more memorization than most other video games.

As a PC gamer I disagree. RTS games require more than Smash.

 

[Pandaman]

Bad luck is not the same thing as taking a risk and accepting the possibility of death.

However, you're clearly you're not interested in an actual debate, so I'm going to stop arguing with you. The other guy is cool, though.

:lol

one man,
one mission,
pandaman wins again.

No. In any competitive team based shooter, you don't die from some lucky random shot. Never. It's because someone fired in your direction with the intent of hitting you. The only way it can ever be called luck is if they missed and then you ended up walking into the shot anyway. But it's the same as if in a fighting game someone fired a fireball right after you did a super jump and you accidentally landed onto it.

No, its not the same.

when you super jump, you know the risk you are taking.
you know where your opponent is, the animation state he is in, the speed of his fireball and where you will land.
you take a gamble knowing all of those factors and weigh the risks of your super jump, there are no random factors where you might lose for lack of information. even playing the craziest Carl in blazblue, you'll atleast know when Nirvana is behind you.

i have no idea where you got the idea i was talking about a random shot, perhaps you should have followed along with the discussion before posting.

---

second of all, if you get the impression that I'm down playing the strategy and skill involved in FPS, shut up and go play with your ball. Seriously, if that turns out to be the problem i'll see to it that you're never moe again.

 

[Zek]

As a PC gamer I disagree.

Other than a really complex strategy game or RPG or something, what else comes close? Smash's inputs are simple but all of its characters have unique movesets and fighting styles that you have to memorize.

 

[GalacticAE]

Luck isn't really a factor in either genre if you know how to play. You just need to minimize risks and understand your situations.

 

[infinityBCRT]

As a PC gamer I disagree. RTS games require more than Smash.

High level play RTS games are insane... You have to be a well oiled machine and I hardly call it fun... At least in fighting games you can use the element of surprise and are constantly adjusting your plan to react to your opponent in real-time, whereas in an RTS (high level play) it seems like you have to fight against yourself and the clock. And once you decide to attack or your opponent decides to attack, thats really just to get a verdict on how well you managed your resources and build order.

 

[Hitokage]

High level play RTS games are insane... You have to be a well oiled machine and I hardly call it fun.

I personally don't care for RTS games that are micro-heavy or require peon babysitting. Just let me focus on my troop formations, please.

 

[Zek]

High level play RTS games are insane... You have to be a well oiled machine and I hardly call it fun... At least in fighting games you can use the element of surprise and are constantly adjusting your plan to react to your opponent in real-time, whereas in an RTS (high level play) it seems like you have to fight against yourself and the clock. And once you decide to attack or your opponent decides to attack, thats really just to get a verdict on how well you managed your resources and build order.

You really think high level RTS players never adjust their strategies to counter eachother or use the element of surprise?

 

[vgachi57]

wow, i went away to lunch and so much activity on this thread :lol

 

[PataHikari]

All I'm saying is if you don't want to invest the time it takes to become good at SF then don't play it. If you don't enjoy the memorization/muscle memory, and dexterity that is required to be good at it... then don't play it.

He's not saying he dosn't want to invest the time to be good at the game.

He dosn't want to be forced to invest hours just to learn the controls.

Every action you take in a game should be easy to perform. If it isn't, then it has flawed controls. Being good at a game should be knowing when and how to use those actions.

 

[Fersis]

I personally don't care for RTS games that are micro-heavy or require peon babysitting. Just let me focus on my troop formations, please.

R.U.S.E is for you my good man.
You can pre-download the Public BETA today and play it tomorrow.

 

[Hitokage]

He's not saying he dosn't want to invest the time to be good at the game.

He dosn't want to be forced to invest hours just to learn the controls.

Every action you take in a game should be easy to perform. If it isn't, then it has flawed controls. Being good at a game should be knowing when and how to use those actions.

Are you talking about learning the controls or performing them?

R.U.S.E is for you my good man.
You can pre-download the Public BETA today and play it tomorrow.

Haha, I might look into it. It'll be better than waiting for Kohan AG to be rereleased on Steam, anyway.

 

[infinityBCRT]

You really think high level RTS players never adjust their strategies to counter eachother or use the element of surprise?

Just from personal experience of StarCraft, WarCraft 3 and now StarCraft 2 it seems like its 95% build order and APM. Once you get that right its the last 5% that comes down to reacting against your opponent. At least in 1v1. In 2v2 and FFA theres far more strategy and reaction involved.

 

[ultim8p00]

what i think would be cool is if fighting games came with gloves and boots with sweet sensors in them so you could kick and punch. also maybe a "hula hoop" type thing that you wear around your hip so the game "sees you". so like if you do a sweet flying roundhouse kick the game can detect it, but get this if you follow up with a 1-2 punch combo, the game sees that too.

...and then a thing that connects to your chest to monitor your heart beat. this i think would be the best part as things get more intense and your heart beat rises then the super meter rises depending on how fiery of a fighter you are.

although now that i think about it some fighters stay pretty cool in battle so they shouldnt deter THOSE people too. maybe they could have a "fire meter" and a "chill meter" and like if you used the chill meter cause you stayed cool in battle you could freeze your opponent. but if you used the fire meter you could use ground lava.

I just think fighting games would be better if they were like this cause then everyone could play them.

Day 1.

Anyways for the topic at hand, you have to memorize everything. How do you learn how to write? You learn the letters, then string them together into words, then those words into sentences. It's the same thing. You learn moves, and string them into combos. You don't have to memorize every move, just as you don't have to know every word. Those games with very large movesets are the way they are so that people can experiment and develop their own unique style. You don't have to memorize every move.

 

[Proven]

I have to agree with TheOneGuy about you Pandaman. The only other way to look at your argument is that you're saying that at any time you don't have perfect information, it's luck. That's not luck. And you only have information in a fighting game after someone does something. It's easier to gain that information, but if someone fires the fireball after your character scrolls the screen upward, your only cues are sound and knowledge, which happens to be the same in an FPS when someone fires at you from a direction that you're not currently looking at.

At the same time, what makes shooters a different ball game is the gaining of that information along with the pooling of that information with that of your teammates before making a play. Still, that factor is not luck.

 

[PataHikari]

Are you talking about learning the controls or performing them?

Both?

If you had to do a four button combo to jump from platform to platform in a Mario game, then people would scream about how terrible the controls are.

Yet in order to use the most basic special moves in a fighting game, this is often required.

 

[arstal]

I personally don't care for RTS games that are micro-heavy or require peon babysitting. Just let me focus on my troop formations, please.

You really would have LOVED the Original Kohan then. I still think it was one of the best designed RTS games ever, though had some flaws (mostly AI flaws) Too bad Timegate screwed the pooch hard on the sequel by shitting on what made the concept work.

It was like going from Hyper Fighting to SFA1.

I wish Stardock would get Timegate under their control and make them make a Kohan III done right this time.

As for luck in fighters, there's luck in fighters, just like there's luck in poker. Sometimes you'll catch a bad stroke of luck, things like someone misexecuting, but the misexecution nails you, or a situation where you'll guess right 90% of the time, but it's that other 10%. Things happen, that's why upsets happen. That said, over the long haul- you can make your own luck to some extent. A player who gets called lucky a lot probably has very good yomi.

R.U.S.E. eh? Gotta try it- just saw the KAG reference above. Someone else who loved that game. I got a used copy of it for $8 last month, but found it don't work on windows 7.

 

[GuardianE]

Both?

If you had to do a four button combo to jump from platform to platform in a Mario game, then people would scream about how terrible the controls are.

Yet in order to use the most basic special moves in a fighting game, this is often required.

You can progress and win in a fighting game without using a single special move.

You can't progress in a Mario game without jumping. You could, however, progress in a Mario game without knowing the run button, or knowing about running leading to temporary flight with the correct power up.

 

[thetrin]

OK, first of all, WTF is a Dragon Punch?

Also, I don't have time to learn all of the component parts, let alone long combos made from these parts. If a character has a move like a "Dragon Punch" that goes toward larger move combos, then that "Dragon Punch" should be mapped to a button. If fighting games are about scissors/paper/rock/position strategy, then let them be about strategy. Down with long combos and requirements of dexterity.

What?! Half of the challenge is the dexterity. That's the point of fighting games. Also, if you mapped every move to a button, you'd have a controller with 20 buttons on it, and no way to do a simple punch.

 

[GalacticAE]

Both?

If you had to do a four button combo to jump from platform to platform in a Mario game, then people would scream about how terrible the controls are.

Yet in order to use the most basic special moves in a fighting game, this is often required.

Special moves usually only require a motion of the joystick and a button press. It isn't exactly brain surgery. Execution is part of the risk in fighting games. You can go in and take a risk with a certain combo and maximize damage, but if you miss a link and whiff something, you risk getting punished.

 

[Hitokage]

You really would have LOVED the Original Kohan then. I still think it was one of the best designed RTS games ever, though had some flaws (mostly AI flaws) Too bad Timegate screwed the pooch hard on the sequel by shitting on what made the concept work.

It was like going from Hyper Fighting to SFA1.

I wish Stardock would get Timegate under their control and make them make a Kohan III done right this time.

*chuckles*

I used to one of the key players in the GAF Kohan scene. Many GAF mods and exmods used to be players, and it was the only game not named Madden to enjoy enduring popularity in the IRC channel for several years.

By the way, I played Ceyah, and preferred a double settle, double scout, iron export, double blacksmith, short skels build start.

 

[Hilbert]

Both?

If you had to do a four button combo to jump from platform to platform in a Mario game, then people would scream about how terrible the controls are.

Yet in order to use the most basic special moves in a fighting game, this is often required.

Isn't basic special move an oxymoron?

 

[DRock]

Both?

If you had to do a four button combo to jump from platform to platform in a Mario game, then people would scream about how terrible the controls are.

Yet in order to use the most basic special moves in a fighting game, this is often required.

What you want is the EO mode from SNK vs Cap 2. This puts the special moves onto a direction on the right analog stick. It sucks balls...

 

[arstal]

My thing was nat engie builds. I'd only change up if I got Naava or Feanor (ranger kohan was almost as good as healer kohan)

I'd often end up -30 or -40 in stone by the end of the game, or pass all my forts on to others.

BTW just saw R.U.S.E. was Ubi. Do not want now.

 

[vgachi57]

I have to agree with TheOneGuy about you Pandaman. The only other way to look at your argument is that you're saying that at any time you don't have perfect information, it's luck. That's not luck. And you only have information in a fighting game after someone does something. It's easier to gain that information, but if someone fires the fireball after your character scrolls the screen upward, your only cues are sound and knowledge, which happens to be the same in an FPS when someone fires at you from a direction that you're not currently looking at.

At the same time, what makes shooters a different ball game is the gaining of that information along with the pooling of that information with that of your teammates before making a play. Still, that factor is not luck.

what good fighting game has the opponent actually leave the screen??? both characters are always visible at all times is what much of the argument is saying. and with fighters, there is never any instant action. in an fps, when the gun fires, there's often little, if any at all, anticipation animation. the bullet just comes out. and you get hit and maybe some hud element indicating which general direction you got hit from. in fighters, let's use the fireball example you give, ryu reels back, cups his hands together, and then thrusts for a fireball. it might be quick, 5-10 frames for the anticipation, 5 frames for the fireball, and 20 for the recovery (in a 60 frame per second example for sake of argument, since sprites don't run using frames per second measurement), but the anticipation is there. so yeah, you can see the action before the action occurs. then after the action, there's usually a recovery period which gives the opponent time to react and also gives the action more weight. so that's the risk-reward.

 

[Hitokage]

My thing was nat engie builds. I'd only change up if I got Naava.

I'd often end up -30 or -40 in stone by the end of the game, or pass all my forts on to others.

Stone isn't too much of a money drain though. I had to deal with the same thing in Ceyah's late game with -24 stone per void regiment, although I had more to worry about with 60+ mana upkeep. :lol

 

[vocab]

what good fighting game has the opponent actually leave the screen??? .

Versus games. Marvel for example (not a good game by my standards, but I acknowledge the game for what it is), you can't even see the assists come on the screen when someone is super jumping. You get a little indicator, and since it's Marvel there's so much on the screen that the indicator is useless.

 

[vgachi57]

Versus games. Marvel for example (not a good game by my standards, but I acknowledge the game for what it is), you can't even see the assists come on the screen when someone is super jumping. You get a little indicator, and since it's Marvel there's so much on the screen that the indicator is useless.

well, now you're lumping in the Versus games with slower paced games like Street Fighter. is counterstrike the same as unreal/quake? but sure, i would agree that the Versus games suffer from the same ailment as fps's, where you're not always aware of all the information.

also would agree that the versus games are not necessarily good by my standards either. kind of fun every now and then but i can't take it seriously because it's too chaotic.

 

[Pandaman]

I have to agree with TheOneGuy about you Pandaman. The only other way to look at your argument is that you're saying that at any time you don't have perfect information, it's luck. That's not luck.

ugh.

And you only have information in a fighting game after someone does something.

:lol
read this again:
when you super jump, you know the risk you are taking.
you know where your opponent is, the animation state he is in, the speed of his fireball and where you will land.
you take a gamble knowing all of those factors and weigh the risks of your super jump, there are no random factors where you might lose for lack of information. even playing the craziest Carl in blazblue, you'll atleast know when Nirvana is behind you.

It's easier to gain that information, but if someone fires the fireball after your character scrolls the screen upward, your only cues are sound and knowledge, which happens to be the same in an FPS when someone fires at you from a direction that you're not currently looking at.

that... uh, has never really happened. and I play touhou fighters. and i believe they have a patent on both super jumps and projectile spam.

but for the sake of the argument, I'm playing street fighter 4 and the situation you are describing never happens. the screen doesn't scroll that high.

At the same time, what makes shooters a different ball game is the gaining of that information along with the pooling of that information with that of your teammates before making a play. Still, that factor is not luck.

luck is a factor. in the sense that com-stating in starcraft seconds before they move out involves luck.

actually no. wait. I'm curious.

Can you tell me exactly what you think i am arguing?

 

[Twig]

This is actually pretty hilarious looking from the outside in.

As a side note: Hitokage et. al.'s RTS discussion reminds me that I am just as clueless in RTS as I am in fighting games. The difference, of course, is that I can learn how to play an RTS without looking at a manual.

But then again having those tech flowcharts is pretty nice.

 

[aktham]

Why do people argue that fighting games have memorization?

Because those people are misinformed. In order to do well in a fighting game community/tournament you need:

1. Knowledge
This simply requires time and comes from playing the game/watching videos. Probably the easiest trait to learn about the game. This includes what punishes what and recovery time etc. You need to know what happens in every situation. Some players really get into it and study frame data.

2. Anticipation
This IMO is what sets the boys from the men in the fighting game community. "Mindgames" if you will. Great players will always limit their opponents options and are able to safely predict the player's next move. This is where the game become real time chess.

3. Reaction
You can have all the anticipation in the world but it doesn't mean a thing if you can't react to your opponents move correctly (in this case in time). You only have milliseconds to react to moves in fighting games. You will need good reaction time. This is not a turn based RPG.

4. Execution
This probably the second most important part of fighting games and my favorite. This of course depends on the character used. Most people don't use the grapple and charge characters, because they're options are limited and execution can be difficult at times. You obviously need to execute for maximum damage/favorable position based on knowledge, anticipation and reaction. Execution comes from practice and to a certain extent, memorization.

I'd like to see how somebody does in a Tekken tournament by only memorizing the 10 hit strings :lol

 

[arstal]

This is actually pretty hilarious looking from the outside in.

As a side note: Hitokage et. al.'s RTS discussion reminds me that I am just as clueless in RTS as I am in fighting games. The difference, of course, is that I can learn how to play an RTS without looking at a manual.

But then again having those tech flowcharts is pretty nice.

Kohan had a pretty simple tech tree as well. It was really a smartly designed game, outside of its company AI, which allowed for exploits (that got the community-enforced banhammer, Sirlinistas would have hated that, but I supported it mostly)

 

[BlackGoku03]

You can compare 1v1 duel games to fighting games on many different levels, but in terms of game play, and controls they are aren't even close.

Sure. But it seems silly to bring up in a thread which focuses on fighting games.

I think people are getting confused with what type of memorization the OP was mentioning.

 

[Mudkips]

Well you're probably referring to dial-a-combo games like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct.

:lol
Killer Instinct was one of the first fighting games with an actual, structured combo system.
And it was done well.

Capcom and SNK games do not have "free-flowing" combos in comparison.

Fighting games today are either button mashers or have an extreme learning curve.
Once you get past the learning curve and yes, memorization, the games typically devolve into a reflex test.

To me the fighting genre (including Smash Bros.) is fully played out.
I need something different.

 

[PataHikari]

Because those people are misinformed. In order to do well in a fighting game community/tournament you need:

To do well you need that, yes.

But to learn to play in the first place you need to memorize arcane inputs.

 

[Hitokage]

Kohan had a pretty simple tech tree as well. It was really a smartly designed game, outside of its company AI, which allowed for exploits (that got the community-enforced banhammer, Sirlinistas would have hated that, but I supported it mostly)

Kohan simplified some aspects but made other considerations more meaningful. Formations mattered. Positioning mattered. Terrain matter. Supply mattered. Upkeep mattered. Territory mattered. Company composition mattered.

EviLore and I both spent a lot of time in the level editor running company matchup simulations, but even after sorting out what specific stats and effects were optimal in an isolated head-on conflict against given opposition, simply changing the angle of attack could swing the outcome.

It's an incredibly deep game.

As a side note: Hitokage et. al.'s RTS discussion reminds me that I am just as clueless in RTS as I am in fighting games. The difference, of course, is that I can learn how to play an RTS without looking at a manual.

But then again having those tech flowcharts is pretty nice.

I dunno. Kohan AG had a really nice and thick manual.

 

[aktham]

To do well you need that, yes.

But to learn to play in the first place you need to memorize arcane inputs.

That's like saying in order to learn how to type on a keyboard, you need to memorize where the keys are.

 

[Hitokage]

That's like saying in order to learn how to type on a keyboard, you need to memorize where the keys are.

Or to play a musical instrument, you need muscle memory even if you know what the notes are.

 

[voodoopanda]

Playing video games in general requires the memorization of arcane inputs. Give my pops a controller and he's lost for days.

 

[GalacticAE]

To do well you need that, yes.

But to learn to play in the first place you need to memorize arcane inputs.

Welcome to video games.

 

[arstal]

Kohan simplified some aspects but made other considerations more meaningful. Formations mattered. Positioning mattered. Terrain matter. Supply mattered. Upkeep mattered. Territory mattered. Company composition mattered.

EviLore and I both spent a lot of time in the level editor running company matchup simulations, but even after sorting out what specific stats and effects were optimal in an isolated head-on conflict against given opposition, simply changing the angle of attack could swing the outcome.

It's an incredibly deep game.

I dunno. Kohan AG had a really nice and thick manual.

Yeah, I think it's still on my top 10 all-time hours played list, despite it being 4 years since I lost played it. Only games I know are ahead of it are TF2, KOF98, VF5, an online MUD, and Alpha Centauri

that said, townstealing was a wart on the game that Timegate never could fix. That's why I'd love to see a Stardock collaboration- Stardock is GOOD with AI.

 

[vgachi57]

:lol
Fighting games today are either button mashers or have an extreme learning curve.
Once you get past the learning curve and yes, memorization, the games typically devolve into a reflex test.

To me the fighting genre (including Smash Bros.) is fully played out.
I need something different.

actually, i feel that way about fps games.

Playing video games in general requires the memorization of arcane inputs. Give my pops a controller and he's lost for days.

Here here. which is why i hate the use of the word 'intuitive' when referencing video games.

 

[Freshmaker]

Yeah, I think my point didn't come across due to poor wording. :lol

What I mean is, people like to argue that fighting games are just all about memorization, and solely just about that. They never consider the positioning of the characters, the difference of attack priorities, etc. And that memorization, in the long run, isn't really that much.

The memorization's more something you learn at the start, get it out of the way then get down to mind games afterwards. That isn't IMO much different than any other genre. Either you're willing to put the time into that or not.

I hate to play FPS games because you're obligated to learn the maps etc. (This probably doesn't really take that much effort in reality, but it feels like a massive chore to me so I avoid them.)

Memorizing long combos really isn't a huge issue though. If you want to play at a high level and maximize damage, such combos and setups are important, but they aren't necessary for casual play. Strategy and defense tends to win more games than remembering a few combos.

 

[PataHikari]

That's like saying in order to learn how to type on a keyboard, you need to memorize where the keys are.

Your point?

One needs to learn how to use a keyboard in order to use a computer, but a computer is a lot more important then a video game. One has no choice but to learn how to use a keyboard. On the other hand, nobody has to play a fighting game.

Also, a keyboard is much more intuitive then a fighting game's controls. I don't need to press a four button combo to type in "I". Compared to fighting games, when the most basic move, the "quarter circle attack" requires a four button combo. Also, each keyh on a keyboard generally will do exactly what it says it will. Unlike fighting games, which add on another layer of control obfuscation by even having their tutorials not label the buttons as they actually are on the controller.

One has to really like fighting games in order to put up with the near universally terrible controls they have.

 

[arstal]

The memorization's more something you learn at the start, get it out of the way then get down to mind games afterwards.

Memorizing long combos really isn't a huge issue though. If you want to play at a high level and maximize damage, such combos and setups are important, but they aren't necessary for casual play. Strategy and defense tends to win more games than remembering a few combos.

Depends on the fighter. A game like Samsho- combos won't help you much. Fatal Fury- one jab can win you the game if your execution is that good.

The problem I have with SF4 is that it punishes you hard for trying something you can't get 100% of the time, which makes people use it 0% of the time.

 

[voodoopanda]

Wii Sports Resort sword fighting is the solution for you guys who find the arcane inputs of fighting games too hard to do.

 

[PataHikari]

The memorization's more something you learn at the start, get it out of the way then get down to mind games afterwards. That isn't IMO much different than any other genre. Either you're willing to put the time into that or not. .

You shouldn't have to do this.

A game should take only a few minutes to figure out how to do everything in that game.

Smash Brothers has some of the best controls of any fighting game. You press a button and a direction, you do a unique attack. The controls are easy to learn and require almost no memorization. You quickly get over the hurdle of the controls and can actually start playing the game

 

[Freshmaker]

Also, a keyboard is much more intuitive then a fighting game's controls. I don't need to press a four button combo to type in "I". Compared to fighting games, when the most basic move, the "quarter circle attack" requires a four button combo.

Good to know that all fighting games are 2d fighters now. Most 3d fighters rely more on single buttons presses with directional inputs acting as modifiers on a basic attack class. Further, each directional modifier tends to have a universal application for every character. Hit Df+P in Tekken, you'll get a mid, possibly a launcher. Hit df +P in Virtua Fighter, you get an elbow. It's really not that complicated unless you decide to make it harder than it is by not paying attention to the controls.

A qcf move isn't the most basic attack in a 2D fighter. A basic attack takes one button in every fighter. A jump kick typically takes two motions etc. Throws usually take two whole buttons, so that's just as obtuse and mystifying as a control interface as it is to type "I".

You shouldn't have to do this.

A game should take only a few minutes to figure out how to do everything in that game.

Yes. This is why Chess sucks and Othello is considered a superior game.

Smash Brothers has some of the best controls of any fighting game. You press a button and a direction, you do a unique attack. The controls are easy to learn and require almost no memorization. You quickly get over the hurdle of the controls and can actually start playing the game

I get the impression that everyone who hates fighting games stopped playing them around the time Killer Instinct and MK3 were big with their dial a combos. Very few 3d fighters have exceptionally complex control interfaces. VF5 uses three buttons. Teken uses 4. Soul Calibur uses 4 and is not a combo heavy game etc.

 

[Hitokage]

It's rather disingenuous of people to claim that certain videogames are pick up and play when they spent the bulk of the work learning the gameplay when they were younger.

arstal: By the way, why do I have the feeling I've had a similar conversation with you before. :/