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Why do some women criticize sexualized character designs?
- Thread starter Michele
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Cactuarman
Banned
This thread is kind of going in circles at this point because I still feel like some of these arguments are vague and no one can seem to figure out how big of an issue this is. This thread literally started as simply "why women criticize..." So there seems to be a range of entire X group is having a negative impact to this only being "a bunch of pissbabies" and "crybabies".
You could literally create a hundred threads on this subject just switching out "women" with "some men," "some black people," "some homosexuals," "some people from X country," and on and on and on. The answer to OP's questions is "because they find it offensive in some way". Some women may object to a specific instance. Some women may object to the trend itself. Some, which seems to be the most objectionable group (to myself included), are outsiders that literally only see something as being objectionable and feel like they need step in. As someone who was old enough to play games when the original Doom and Mortal Kombat came out - I hate these people because they ignore context when trying to shit on something.
But this article:
This is just a dude talking about a series he likes and one aspect of the experience that he doesn't. I found Totilo's comment (in response to a "Do literally anything else with your life" comment) to be fairly spot on: "Oh, come on. The writer loves the series, dislikes this aspect of it, writes a piece that explains what happens in the games and what might be behind it".
Also, to my above point: "why some men criticize sexist messages..."
This is a pretty big issue for me with these discussions - if it's not the most extreme example then everyone's SJW line is somewhat different. In the Robin Gaming thread a while ago some felt that Naughty Dog/Druckmann were SJWs. The new Tomb Raider was trying to appease SJWs. DOA devs are a bunch of SJWs.
So, I guess, aren't SJWs already making games? Or is the line different here. Curious to hear what you think.
Trying to follow your argument - can you clarify what metric you're referring to when you say "progress"?
Would certainly say that I'd much rather a developer keep to their original vision, but ultimately a developer can "self-censor" all it wants. I'd rather a developer edit itself than a publisher/other outside force impose something. Not really disagreeing with you.
What are these problems? You really mean that across the board? I'd argue that it depends on the context of the story whether or not sexualizing a character makes sense and/our would seem out of place.
You could literally create a hundred threads on this subject just switching out "women" with "some men," "some black people," "some homosexuals," "some people from X country," and on and on and on. The answer to OP's questions is "because they find it offensive in some way". Some women may object to a specific instance. Some women may object to the trend itself. Some, which seems to be the most objectionable group (to myself included), are outsiders that literally only see something as being objectionable and feel like they need step in. As someone who was old enough to play games when the original Doom and Mortal Kombat came out - I hate these people because they ignore context when trying to shit on something.
But this article:
This is just a dude talking about a series he likes and one aspect of the experience that he doesn't. I found Totilo's comment (in response to a "Do literally anything else with your life" comment) to be fairly spot on: "Oh, come on. The writer loves the series, dislikes this aspect of it, writes a piece that explains what happens in the games and what might be behind it".
Also, to my above point: "why some men criticize sexist messages..."
This is a pretty big issue for me with these discussions - if it's not the most extreme example then everyone's SJW line is somewhat different. In the Robin Gaming thread a while ago some felt that Naughty Dog/Druckmann were SJWs. The new Tomb Raider was trying to appease SJWs. DOA devs are a bunch of SJWs.
So, I guess, aren't SJWs already making games? Or is the line different here. Curious to hear what you think.
Trying to follow your argument - can you clarify what metric you're referring to when you say "progress"?
Would certainly say that I'd much rather a developer keep to their original vision, but ultimately a developer can "self-censor" all it wants. I'd rather a developer edit itself than a publisher/other outside force impose something. Not really disagreeing with you.
What are these problems? You really mean that across the board? I'd argue that it depends on the context of the story whether or not sexualizing a character makes sense and/our would seem out of place.
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Thiagosc777
Member
Like for example projecting sexual intentions at any type of nudity. It demonstrates that the person may have some sexual issues. For example, people use bikinis everyday on beaches and pools all over the world and there's nothing sexual about it.
Someone who thinks thats wrong is either from highly repressed culture (like some parts of the middle east) or has some kind of issue.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
What I meant was that if somebody found an issue with how a fake pixelated character is represented, then sexism or not, they have a bigger issue that they need to sort out personally, especially since it really doesn't affect them whereas SJW's have a history of ruining entertainment for most people.
My thoughts exactly. And honestly, with all due respect, who wants to play as an overweight female character and take her seriously?
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hecatomb
Banned
I don't think you know what a SJW means. And theres no reason to buy games that have sexy characters if you don't like that. If I don't like a game I'm not going to buy it, don't know why other people can't do the same.
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Well, at the very least it can be distracting. Speaking of, stop with the appeals to the harshness of life while we're talking about everloving video games.
Games that don't go for the cheap shots. Is that too vague?
Sounds like you should challenge yourself with it.
You have just described everyday life.
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DunDunDunpachi
Banned
Right, 'cause women don't flock to these unrealistic expectations on their own volition:
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
What expectations? I don think no one expecting woman to look like Bayonetta. (honestly they would look like freak of nature in real life). Bayonetta and any other "unrealistic" character design are stylize and can only exist and look good in video games.
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autoduelist
Member
I have. You have yet to respond to anything without simply dodging. For example, my questions in relation to gore and horror movies. You make the pointless observation that not all horror movies have Gore, which not only is immaterial to the argument itself but is classic misdirection, and then go on to say sexualization in horror movies would be a better example (no, it wouldn't) but dont even address that.
Id say your arguments are hollow, but they arent even that. They are pure, 100% dodge. No meat, just unbridled feels and redirection. My position holds strong with any form of art , any topic. Gore. Difficulty level. Themes. Whatever. My position is hisorically sound, and applies to llterature and art through the ages, and validates everything from Michelangelo to Larry Flynt, twain to Dante, Copernicus to Galileo , Martin Luther to Darwin, elvis to 2 live crew. Your position is... um... yeah. The currently hip, short-sighted nonsense usually reserved for busy body Church ladies and politicians trying to scare parents.
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brap
Banned
You talking about pop music stars?
Women don't strive to be fictional characters but there's tons that want to be like the Kardashians and etc.
Cactuarman
Banned
I mean, I saw this...
...but forgive me if I think it is grossly hyperbolic, reductive, and, frankly, silly. You could deflect any form of artistic criticism by saying "oh you don't like that painting/book/movie/videogame/etc., well did you know there are kids in other countries who have never seen a painting/book/movie/videogame/etc. - i guess you don't care about anyone else but you, poor you".
Someone saying they don't like something doesn't mean that they don't care about any other suffering in the world. We might as well delete this entire thread if that's your argument.
I brought up sexualisation in horror because of how similarly I consider it misplaced just like in vg. I am aware how you disagree about that, thanks.
I guess I lost the point on the gore, it's just the first thing that sprung to mind.
I do think I addressed the overall point about how not everything is for everyone, I think it was something like "more could be for more tho".
hecatomb
Banned
I mean its your problem that you are buying DOA games even though you don't like them. No one is forcing you to buy games with sexy characters. Just play something else. Its like people who don't like porn, don't watch it or buy it. Its that simple. You really think that artist are going to stop drawing sexy characters?
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Cactuarman
Banned
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
They are doing that. But peoples point is that certain portrayals of women in games and other forms of media have a harmful effect.
Media always informs our behavior, it doesn't even matter if its fiction or not. Nobody believes that the happy people in ads are actual real people who used product xy. But we don't have to believe that for the ad to work.
What we see shapes our reality, if we like it or not.
The consequence of this is basically just one thing: Responsibility.
You can go ahead and have sexualized female character designs in your game because thats your artistic freedom, but be aware of the message you are sending here, be aware of the effect this has on the people who consume your product and be aware that this is your responsibility.
A good example of popular media having an observable negative effect can be found right at the inception of personal computers and consoles:
Ultimately this is about responsibility and about making creators aware of their responsibility and the fact that they send messages with every design decision they make. Especially in the realm of video games this sense of responsibility is extremely lacking.
Unfortunately most people react offended when you make them aware of that responsibility, which is eerily reminiscent of usual defense mechanisms people display when they sense that the criticism towards them or their work has a point.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Well would be cheep shot if its poorly done and its also same with gore.
Here is good video how good horror is done.
autoduelist
Member
You brought up sexualisation, sure, but didn't actually address anything. You certainly didn't address the core concept, which is content does not need to be accessible to all. It doesn't matter how much you want to watch Saw, nobody needs to turn down the gore for you so that you're able to watch it. Likewise, it doesn't matter how much you want to play game X, nobody needs to turn down the sexualization for you. If it puts you off so be it, and just don't buy it. Earlier, you were arguing that people who want to play a game should be able to, and that they should be minded in production. My point is no, not everyone needs to be minded in production. There are plenty of gorehounds and special effects lovers that want to see explicit Gore in horror films. People who do not like gore should not be minded. The same goes with boobs.
That you think sexualization is misplaced in horror films just means you have absolutely no sense of the history of horror. From Frankenstein through Dracula, sexual themes have always been present in horror films. I mean, virginity is safety for a reason in the 80s. Perhaps not quite as deep, any slasher film worth its salt generally flashes skin. I suppose you don't want any nudity in the next Jason film right?
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Yeah, jump scares are cheap! >:'(
Okay, I can't really provide an objective metric since this is from my own vague impressions, but what I mean by progress is that there are more games where less women (would) have criticisms about the depictions of their gender, compared to a decade ago. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe it's not the quantity, but the quality (cue female protagonists). Maybe it's both. The gaming sphere looks different, to me, is all I know.
Cactuarman
Banned
I get what you're both saying but I don't really think that should be the default assumption. For example, I own the Xtreme series for obvious reasons - and I play plenty of games with women who have giant breasts - but I thought Cia in Hyrule Warriors was fairly ridiculous. Contextually it seemed weird to me to have giant breasts/cleavage in a Zelda game (I would say a great fairy is fine because, contextually, to me, it fits). IMO Cia's design is somewhat jarring and out of place. If you don't agree that fine. It certainly didn't stop me from playing in this case. But I don't think it means I have issues or anything.
hecatomb
Banned
The games showing characters as sex dolls is mostly over the top games like DOA, which you shouldn't be buying anyway if you don't like that kind of stuff. You know whats more harmful that is people becoming more accepting of the over-weghit movement, and ignoring diabetes, heart attack, and other problems. There are games however that are noting like DOA, or over the top sexual games. You should just get those games.They are doing that. But peoples point is that certain portrayals of women in games and other forms of media have a harmful effect.
Media always informs our behavior, it doesn't even matter if its fiction or not. Nobody believes that the happy people in ads are actual real people who used product xy. But we don't have to believe that for the ad to work.
What we see shapes our reality, if we like it or not.
The consequence of this is basically just one thing: Responsibility.
You can go ahead and have sexualized female character designs in your game because thats your artistic freedom, but be aware of the message you are sending here, be aware of the effect this has on the people who consume your product and be aware that this is your responsibility.
A good example of popular media having an observable negative effect can be found right at the inception of personal computers and consoles:
Ultimately this is about responsibility and about making creators aware of their responsibility and the fact that they send messages with every design decision they make. Especially in the realm of video games this sense of responsibility is extremely lacking.
Unfortunately most people react offended when you make them aware of that responsibility, which is eerily reminiscent of usual defense mechanisms people display when they sense that the criticism towards them or their work has a point.
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Cactuarman
Banned
Fair. Honestly I do mostly agree with the "progress" you're talking about. For me though it's all about variety. Jump scares are fun. Atmospheric horror is fun (and ultimately my preference). I love that in today's gaming world we have Ellie, Aloy, Elena, the new Lara, etc. but also if some developer wants to make a fan service-y game then they should be able to do that as well. That's just my personal stance.
Cactuarman
Banned
I don't understand your point... I do like DOA games. Did I ever imply that I was being forced to buy games with sexy characters? I buy those because I like them.
Cactuarman
Banned
Thanks for sharing - I'll check this out when I get home. Based on the images I will enjoy this video. Ultimately though my point was just about it being subjective - even bad horror can make for a pretty entertaining movie.
I didn't say anyone should be minded, I said they want to be minded.
And instead of just not buying the whatever, how about they don't buy it and make a stink about it? What's wrong with that? What's the worst that could happen? Oh yeah, it could turn out more people like horror without gore than with. But even then, nothing ever goes away completely, gory horror would just become more fringe. That's it from me about horror, you may not have noticed it, but I know jack shit about horror, I don't even know why I brought it up...
As I were saying... You've just described everyday life.
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I love Soul Calibur. I can love the series and still think that some of the character design are problematic and criticize them whenever I can.
But only talking about sexualized character designs doesn't do the issue justice. There is much more to dissect here. Its not just they way women in games look, but also the way they behave, the roles they take on, the way they are treated etc.
Sexualized designs are the most prominent and easily discernible issue, but far from the only issue.
And obviously its not only women either. There are also a lot of problems with they way men are displayed in games and media in general.
One of the main reasons why men have a harder time talking about feelings, are more likely to commit crime and why men have higher suicide rates is the way ideal male behavior is portrayed in media.
This shapes how men act and are expected to act in a major way.
This doesn't mean that we can't have hero's anymore, it simply means that it would be good if more developers would spend the time to humanize their characters.
You can still have your Kratos, who's afraid of no monster, no matter how big. But you'll see him scared shitless when his boy falls ill. You'll see him struggle with the fact that his strength and power are useless when it comes to some of the emotional "tasks", like connecting with his boy.
Or take Joel in TLoU. He could've easily been a typical dudebro hero-in-the-apocalypse type guy, but instead they made him a broken, deeply flawed wreck of man on a road to a redemption he doesn't even want. A man who, after surviving the apocalypse for more than 20 years, is scared out of his mind once he realizes that he is starting to connect to Ellie emotionally. A man who is flawed, a man who lies, a man who is selfish and fearful.
All of these things make Joel real and relatable.
These kinds of characters are the next step. These are the results of the criticisms people have been voicing for years now.
And obviously not every game is a good fit for characters like that, but even in less story focussed games there is still much room for improvement when it comes to design, behavior, motivation etc. of characters.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I like both Kratos and Joel but not all games needs be like that. I also like to have characters with over the top design and personality like this.
Again, I said this many times in this thread. There is room for both.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
But these days there games for almost everybody. If one game doesn't appeal to you then play the games that it does. Just recently we saw Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay and its FPS and I personally don't like that. Should I demand the developers change their entire design just so to please me? No!!! Because its not reasonable.
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hecatomb
Banned
People don't understand they just think they can control people, and tell them what characters are going to be in games.
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HaveButOneLife
Banned
What? An overweight female character?
I think that's fair, to be honest. I don't think we should DOX developers and boycott all Zelda games, but unlike SJW's and other feminists, that's real criticism.
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I like both Kratos and Joel but not all games needs be like that. I also like to have characters with over the top design and personality like this.
Again, I said this many times in this thread. There is room for both.
There is room for both but there is also the necessity to criticize and constantly remind creators to be aware of their responsibilities regarding the messages they are sending with their content.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
What messages? Virtual worlds have absolutely no affect on the real world at all whatsoever. Critiquing them won't do anything for women.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
So remind them that they are not free to create what they want!!? I’m sorry that’s completely BS!!! Again I like characters like Joel but for fuck sake if every characters were “grounded” then gaming would be so god damn dull and boring. I NEED my over the top characters, that’s why LOVE Japanese games and if I can’t get that then there no reason for me to play games anymore. Getting older doesn’t mean I need to fucking die inside.
autoduelist
Member
Which brings us full circle. You do not see this in any other medium. Nobody is asking that romance novels be more inclusive. We allow both action movies and hardcore porn movies as separate entities. Nobody expects every new book to be for them , and nobody complains if a new book coming out has a gratuitous sex scene.
Gaming is the only medium where activists believe they can and should control content. This is all addressed far earlier in this thread, most likely my first response to you. That is why they are criticized. Rather than treating the industry as a whole, and understanding that different releases serve different niches, they treat each release as something that should be for them. Again, this is something I addressed earlier. There's an active and vocal minority that tries to shame and insult both developers and audiences for making things that they don't like. The attitudes you are defending are reminicent of book burners and music censors, and should not be glorified as being in the right. Despite thier claims, they are firmly on the wrong side of history.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Why put limitations on artists though? They should be free to create what they want and leave it up to the audience to see what is received and what is not. I will never understand why video games are always criticized for their creative visions over all other entertainment.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
That just proves imho, older movies and characters were more memorable back then than what we have today.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Well this is quite a lengthy ad hoc ergo propter hoc...They are doing that. But peoples point is that certain portrayals of women in games and other forms of media have a harmful effect.
Media always informs our behavior, it doesn't even matter if its fiction or not. Nobody believes that the happy people in ads are actual real people who used product xy. But we don't have to believe that for the ad to work.
What we see shapes our reality, if we like it or not.
The consequence of this is basically just one thing: Responsibility.
You can go ahead and have sexualized female character designs in your game because thats your artistic freedom, but be aware of the message you are sending here, be aware of the effect this has on the people who consume your product and be aware that this is your responsibility.
A good example of popular media having an observable negative effect can be found right at the inception of personal computers and consoles:
Ultimately this is about responsibility and about making creators aware of their responsibility and the fact that they send messages with every design decision they make. Especially in the realm of video games this sense of responsibility is extremely lacking.
Unfortunately most people react offended when you make them aware of that responsibility, which is eerily reminiscent of usual defense mechanisms people display when they sense that the criticism towards them or their work has a point.
KingJ2002
Member
They are doing that. But peoples point is that certain portrayals of women in games and other forms of media have a harmful effect.
Media always informs our behavior, it doesn't even matter if its fiction or not. Nobody believes that the happy people in ads are actual real people who used product xy. But we don't have to believe that for the ad to work.
What we see shapes our reality, if we like it or not.
The consequence of this is basically just one thing: Responsibility.
You can go ahead and have sexualized female character designs in your game because thats your artistic freedom, but be aware of the message you are sending here, be aware of the effect this has on the people who consume your product and be aware that this is your responsibility.
A good example of popular media having an observable negative effect can be found right at the inception of personal computers and consoles:
Ultimately this is about responsibility and about making creators aware of their responsibility and the fact that they send messages with every design decision they make. Especially in the realm of video games this sense of responsibility is extremely lacking.
Unfortunately most people react offended when you make them aware of that responsibility, which is eerily reminiscent of usual defense mechanisms people display when they sense that the criticism towards them or their work has a point.
I was going to comment by saying something similar.
The media's portrayal of men, women, and what's defined as "society's norms" are what drives the comments. Artist are free to create and express whatever they want but the scrutiny will always be around whatever the hot button issue is at that point and time.
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S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Yep plenty want to be fake.You talking about pop music stars?
Women don't strive to be fictional characters but there's tons that want to be like the Kardashians and etc.
ShadowhunterrNL
Neo Member
I see this more as first world problem for a small amount of people whos life is maybe too boring and start bitching something on the web. See how fast some people are offended by the smallest things these days.
Last month here in The Netherlands, a women was sent off the beach for getting a tan topless. The reason they give was.... to protect childeren. Save my kids from milk shooting bewbs !
I don't really understand why people will be bothered or rage by fake pixel ladies with *boing boing* at all. At the same time they play shooter games with trophy's like kill 10.000 people.
Females has bewbs and males a penis. We also have people who are lost in between. Who cares.... play your game and enjoy it.
Last month here in The Netherlands, a women was sent off the beach for getting a tan topless. The reason they give was.... to protect childeren. Save my kids from milk shooting bewbs !
I don't really understand why people will be bothered or rage by fake pixel ladies with *boing boing* at all. At the same time they play shooter games with trophy's like kill 10.000 people.
Females has bewbs and males a penis. We also have people who are lost in between. Who cares.... play your game and enjoy it.
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petran79
Banned
They are doing that. But peoples point is that certain portrayals of women in games and other forms of media have a harmful effect.
Media always informs our behavior, it doesn't even matter if its fiction or not. Nobody believes that the happy people in ads are actual real people who used product xy. But we don't have to believe that for the ad to work.
What we see shapes our reality, if we like it or not.
The consequence of this is basically just one thing: Responsibility.
You can go ahead and have sexualized female character designs in your game because thats your artistic freedom, but be aware of the message you are sending here, be aware of the effect this has on the people who consume your product and be aware that this is your responsibility.
A good example of popular media having an observable negative effect can be found right at the inception of personal computers and consoles:
Ultimately this is about responsibility and about making creators aware of their responsibility and the fact that they send messages with every design decision they make. Especially in the realm of video games this sense of responsibility is extremely lacking.
Unfortunately most people react offended when you make them aware of that responsibility, which is eerily reminiscent of usual defense mechanisms people display when they sense that the criticism towards them or their work has a point.
Computers back then were difficult and inaccessible even to men. But using computers for work outside computer science and games, eg accounting, journalism, physics, mathematics etc was quite common in certain jobs, some of which even used type writers. Women were participating in those jobs significantly. I'd say they took the more mature approach, regarding it as a tool rather than entertainment.