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Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus (Video)

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Being aware of something I guess is different to causing it to happen. Does producing a child, who becomes a murderer the fault of that mother?

Does she bear any responsibility if she leaves a loaded revolver on the kitchen table all day, every day?

Or perhaps a better analogy than murder given the "crime" in Genesis might be the mother leaving an apple pie on the table every day, tells her daughter not to eat it, but when she does after being talked into it by a shifty uncle, the mother kicks her daughter and her son both out on the street and tells them they can never come back. Eventually they end up in the shifty uncle's basement where he tortures and abuses them forever.

Should never have touched that apple pie. Damn kids.
 
Are you arguing for argument's sake? or are you here to reason, debate and take part in dialogue. All you're teaching me is that you have remarkable wit. :P

I suppose I'm done here. Enjoy your thread.

You're right. I should have taken you at your word earlier. We could have avoided the unpleasantness.

urgh... never mind. why do I enter these threads...? ignore me. I'm just so bored with all these things.
 
This went over my head. You're far too bright and witty for me Monocle.

And just so we're clear, the above wasn't sarcasm.
No worries.

If you know a movie by heart does that mean you played all the parts?
If you know the movie by heart because you wrote it, paid for it, produced it, did all the set design, and cast your own kids in every role, it doesn't matter whose names show up in the credits. You're responsible for having made the damn thing.
 
If you know the movie by heart because you wrote it, paid for it, produced it, did all the set design, and cast your own kids in every role, it doesn't matter whose names show up in the credits. You're responsible for having made the damn thing.

God built the internet? He should have known better. If one is to assume that God gave us all abilities in varying degrees, it does not follow that he determined whether we used them or not.
 
Calling it a fruit, allows the other person to share in the knowledge that it is fruit that is mentioned, and that future generations called it an apple, much more further down the line. Why spread further ignorance?

Like the story of the fruit and the 'original sin' of eating it?
 
Does she bear any responsibility if she leaves a loaded revolver on the kitchen table all day, every day?

Or perhaps a better analogy than murder given the "crime" in Genesis might be the mother leaving an apple pie on the table every day, tells her daughter not to eat it, but when she does after being talked into it by a shifty uncle, the mother kicks her daughter and her son both out on the street and tells them they can never come back. Eventually they end up in the shifty uncle's basement where he tortures and abuses them forever.

Should never have touched that apple pie. Damn kids.

In that example, I had no intention to defend this theology or that theology. I was simply reapplying what I thought he said.
 
what unpleasantness? you didn't say anything unpleasant to me. I leave threads all the time. :P

Yeah, but most people declaring that they'll be leaving a thread, inevitably linger... the absurdity is ignored by everyone, and with the threat of ostracism removed by not keeping to their word, continue posting, pretending that they never made their hissy fit ultimatum.
 
Yeah, but most people declaring that they'll be leaving a thread, inevitably linger... the absurdity is ignored by everyone, and with the threat of ostracism removed by not keeping to their word, continue posting, pretending that they never made their hissy fit ultimatum.

hissy fit? who cares whether I leave a thread or not? and I refreshed rightly so, cause he thought there was something between us, when there clearly wasn't.
 
God built the internet? He should have known better. If one is to assume that God gave us all abilities in varying degrees, it does not follow that he determined whether we used them or not.
What kind of architect approves plans for a house that he knows is going to sicken, mutilate, or kill most of its occupants? If you have unlimited time and resources to make the building, and you get to choose the tenants, you ought to end up with something a little better than this:

vpiup.jpg
 
The point is that if God really were all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful, he could have built a better world. What kind of architect approves plans for a house that he knows is going to sicken, mutilate, or kill most of its occupants?

A god made universe may not be evident, but I dislike the alternative superhuman made universe. You'd have to break all kinds of universe breaking laws, all the time. The laws of gravity would have to break, every time a kid wanted to fly off a cliff. That sounded awesome when I thought that up, but that breaks the universe in such a fundamental way.
 
hissy fit? who cares whether I leave a thread or not? and I refreshed rightly so, cause he thought there was something between us, when there clearly wasn't.

I was speaking in general terms. You can pick and choose what applies to you or doesn't. But you've certainly heard of the term rage quit. Well, those are hissy fits.
 
The point is that if God really were all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful, he could have built a better world. What kind of architect approves plans for a house that he knows is going to sicken, mutilate, or kill most of its occupants?

He built a fine world. We screwed it up.
 
A god made universe may not be evident, but I dislike the alternative superhuman made universe. You'd have to break all kinds of universe breaking laws, all the time. The laws of gravity would have to break, every time a kid wanted to fly off a cliff. That sounded awesome when I thought that up, but that breaks the universe in such a fundamental way.
This assumes that a being with unlimited power and creativity would be incapable of making a universe similar to but less flawed than ours. I mean, I think we would manage just fine without cancer and flesh-eating bacteria. Just saying.
 
I was speaking in general terms. You can pick and choose what applies to you or doesn't. But you've certainly heard of the term rage quit. Well, those are hissy fits.

Well that is one interpretation, sure I'll give you that. But mine was based on irrational human emotions roused by supposedly enlightening posts. Kind of like evangelical atheists.
 
Something something but those enemies of mine who do not wish for me to reign over them bring them before me and kill them. Why I hate religion and the character Jesus Christ.
 
This assumes that a being with unlimited power and creativity would be incapable of making a universe similar to but less flawed than ours. I mean, I think we would manage just fine without cancer and flesh-eating bacteria. Just saying.

And in that example you would be quite correct. But a universe without flesh eating bacteria and without cancer, when both things are clearly possible doesn't make sense to me.

Sure subjectively, I'd change all kinds of stuff. To hell with breaking the universe. But what does my wanting determine anything that might cause the universe to not exist?
 
Oh, I thought you were still going on about your shack.

I have a question for you. You believe in paradise, right? if that is an example of a perfect universe, why don't you argue that god created a perfect universe, but we do not live in it? That this is a much more realistic universe.
 
He built a fine world. We screwed it up.
Motherfucker should fix this shit. But he won't coz he's a motherfucker.

I have a question for you. You believe in paradise, right? if that is an example of a perfect universe, why don't you argue that god created a perfect universe, but we do not live in it? That this is a much more realistic universe.
Yeah, it's called heaven, you're not good enough for membership!
 
Yes, Samoan E. Honda is unforgiveable! >:0

lol. Well whatever works for you mate. :P

But jumping into a thread and calling the opposing side's god a motherfucker, only suppresses their intent to speak with you. Why would they indulge in a debate if it only leads down to their god being called a motherfucker?

And you might get your self banned or something. It really helps no one in the end.
 
Pretentious babble. The message of the video is basically "religion is bad, but the bible, which instructs MY religion, is good"

....what?

It also throws some shit poetry into the mix as well.
 
Pretentious babble. The message of the video is basically "religion is bad, but the bible, which instructs MY religion, is good"

....what?

If the message was as clear as that (which I suppose it was his intent, somewhat), it wouldn't be pretentious at all, or confusing.
 
You would prefer a God that would act on his omnipotence and force you to love him instead of giving you free will? Interesting.

The point is that if god exists as you described, free will is an illusion. If absolutely nothing can possibly go against god's will free will is impossible.

Truthfully, even if god doesn't exist free will is most likely an illusion.
 
The Old Testament definition for religion is not the same as the New Testament definition. The OT meaning is mans attempt to earn his way in to Heaven by his good deeds or following a set of rules. God set it up this way. If you do this, I will do this. If you do not do this, then I will not do the this. It is a works based relationship.

The NT meaning is not about earning Heaven or Salvation. It is centered on selfishness: "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." God did everything and we can do nothing to earn what he offers as a gift. Now go and live for others. Not because you are trying to earn something, but because God gave the best he had, so that we could be with him.

This video gives a quick summary of the differences.

In Summary, the video from the OP is 100% Biblical.
 
The Old Testament definition for religion is not the same as the New Testament definition. The OT meaning is mans attempt to earn his way in to Heaven by his good deeds or following a set of rules. God set it up this way. If you do this, I will do this. If you do not do this, then I will not do the this. It is a works based relationship.

The NT meaning is not about earning Heaven or Salvation. It is centered on selfishness: "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." God did everything and we can do nothing to earn what he offers as a gift. Now go and live for others. Not because you are trying to earn something, but because God gave the best he had, so that we could be with him.

This video gives a quick summary of the differences.

In Summary, the video from the OP is 100% Biblical.

Then surely he should define terms, considering that neither are what people view as normal definitions? Wouldnt it then be: NT religion> OT religion? Rather than Jesus > religion.

Or is it an in joke kind of thing?
 
Do not want to get off on a rabbit trail, but you obviously do not understand the fundamental difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

The OT was Law and the NT is Grace.

For more understanding please see:
Law and Gospel
Why do Christians not obey the Old Testaments commands to kill


If it would help you then you should consider just starting with the NT. The only purpose of the OT today is to show us how guilty we are of multiple sins and point us towards the redemption found in Jesus and the NT.

Ok, this whole Old Testament is off limits nonsense deserves a response...from Jesus.

Matthew 5:17-20
The Fulfillment of the Law

    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
Again, to flesh out your view, how do you feel about mob violence? Say that Qaddafi would have been replaced with a stable government, to avoid the political realist aspect of it. To what extent does your empathy with a flawed but subdued society clash with empathy for an awful leader and human who was abused and executed without regard for his human rights (I believe you think no one can forfeit them)? Are his killers guilty of murder or simply executioners? I'm really interested.

it does not clash, because the ability to see both sides as creatures that are subject to environmental and situational influence allows me to see exactly how complex and not clear these situations are. the situation you present is, at the point where mob violence must remove a tyrannical ruler from power, completely off the rails as far as morality and empathy are concerned, since a ruler like qaddafi did not comport himself toward the people in his country with empathy--that is, he did not behave as if he understood that the line between himself and someone under him, far, far under him, was razor thin.

i do not think he should have been executed, because i think the ability for a person to be saved is limitless. i should clarify when i say "saved" here i do not mean religiously, but psychologically, even emotionally: the saving of a deviant human being means, to me, that they understand empathy, understand the i-thou relationship in the martin buber sense, that every person that walks around is a consciousness hurtled into a physical body without any choice or warning. if five minutes from his death, after years of inhumane torturous injustice, qaddafi could really understand the weight of what he'd done, i find that kind of epiphanic transcendence worthwhile. i should also note, however, that my espousing of empathy as the ultimate moral virtue doesn't really grant me access to all the answers insofar as political unrest are concerned, largely because i think politics are run systematically with only a token nod to empathy. there is no impetus for that either, in the grand scale. what is important is that i understand that the way i treat others should be about something besides MY experience.

i suppose i see empathy and transcendence of self and anything that in its intention sets aside the self in favor of a thou as the most difficult and most vital thing for a human life.

forgive me if this is all totally unclear or doesn't address your question, ghaleon. haha. as i said earlier in the thread, it's something of a big subject and is hard to hold in two hands. i would ask, from your p.o.v., what the ultimate moral goal is. i'm certainly ready to shift my position if a good argument for something else is presented.

frankly, though, i think all morality and ethics ultimately stem from a root in the ground anchored by the understanding that your automatic tendency to favor your own agenda should be dispensed with as much as possible, and that relationships with other people are the way to become actualized and happy and to make others happy.
 
I never heard of this one. Care to elaborate?
The belief that Jesus was a cool guy who preached some things worth listening to, and that you can appreciate those teachings without no supernatural strings attached. Thomas Jefferson may have believed something like this, as he owned a copy of the New Testament that was edited to remove supernatural elements while keeping the morals intact.
 
Yes, He built a paradise, but unfortunately for us decided that a putting shiny, red, candy like self destruct button with a sign saying "Do Not Press" in the middle of it was a also good idea.

And who the fuck is going to be able to read DO NOT PRESS if the action of pressing that button is the thing that will allow us to read the DO NOT PRESS (among other things).
 
Bartlet? Why not Einstein, Planck, Leimatre. (that Lionheart1337 even posted last page)

I'll just say that both of you appear to have 'problems' with how human beings function, and think such problems are due religion (or even abrahamic faith alone, it seems). I'd gladly try to expand the thought if asked.

Einstein?
 
Einstein?

He wasn't a gnostic atheist, or like Bertrand Russell establishes, just an Agnostic (no atheist). He sure was understandable to those of faith and not contraire to beliefs too.
Just pointing out someone that openly responded about 'faith' positively (neutral to some) and was knowledgeable about the topics the user I quoted responded to.
 
Oh, I thought you were still going on about your shack.

Man, I was hoping to read a real response, and all I got was this *juke* move. :(

And who the fuck is going to be able to read DO NOT PRESS if the action of pressing that button is the thing that will allow us to read the DO NOT PRESS (among other things).

Haha, exactly. This point is so often overlooked.
 
But the message is that nobody should have any hate, but only love towards one another as we are all equally guilty.

Everybody is a sinner and deserving of the punishment of sin. We are not in any position to point a finger.

I will never understand why people cannot admit they are sinful. At our core we are all sinful in nature.
There are many reasons why we should reject the concept of sin. 1) There is simply no proof of it. 2) The concept of inherited sin is antithetical to the concept of free will. 3) Genetics has disproved the existence of an original Adam and Eve, and "evil" has been with the universe since the beginning; we wouldn't even be here without constant destruction. So how did sin enter the world? 4) The concept of sin does an inadequate job of describing moral values. In fact, it's difficult to tell what a sin even is. And don't tell me that the Bible is some kind of guide. It tells us that we shouldn't commit murder, yet all of the death that god condones apparently doesn't count as murder.

Do you expect me to simply "know" that I am sinful through my own conscience or intuition, just as CS Lewis argued? Intuition is not a guide to objective moral bearings. Someone who grew up as Buddhist will tell you that you should "know" that the secret to life is the constant cycle of death and rebirth. In other words, what we think we know as truth is often transmitted culturally to us throughout our lives. Only some of it is innate, and that innateness certainly does not come from god.
I understand, but I guess I've never found that a powerful criticism. Ultimately, I don't care about philosophies that are only properly studied and practiced in doctorate programs. Religion couples philosophy with "government" mechanisms to disseminate, implement, and adapt it. After all, I assume you think that religion is an anthropological solution to common problems that societies have. In that worldview, ethics are pre-mediated. They exist between logical proofs and simply "ought" assertions. The Grand Inquisitors of history and duped theologians created the borders and how far they can stretch.

To provide a full critique, I really think you can't compare philosophy to philosophy. We'd just end up with differing 1st premises and unfair comparisons. I think you have to provide a system for disseminating information along with it. If Christianity was a major part in shifting a continent or more from barbarism to relative brilliance in 1,700 years (not shabby), the next, improved system needs to have similar ambitions.

You don't have to come up with some white paper you have prepared about how you'd fill the gap. But, you know, what are your rough ideas? National or transnational education standards that heavily critique other ethical systems and provide debate within a narrow scope of your preferred one? Church-like structures with secular philosophers, therapists, and community workers?
There is no reason for the average person to study and practice moral philosophy in doctorate programs. Most people don't intellectualize it to such a degree. They act according to simple moral intuitions, and these moral intuitions are transmitted culturally. At least on a sociological level, people act according to their incentives. Religion was never some kind of fundamental moral precept that, once removed, would require us to build a completely new one. It's just another part of our cultural framework that contributes to our moral intuitions. It can be replaced by other factors (a stable, comfortable environment is crucial, which is one reason why poorer people tend to be more religious). That is why, as religious authority declines, there is no obvious and linear moral decay concomitant with it, as much as any number of religious authorities try to convince us that we are headed toward moral deprivation. We don't need any special mechanisms. We just need a better concept of morality (which yes, science can help us to achieve) and social cohesion.

Lastly, I must object to the claim that Christianity shifted a continent out of barbarism. It may be true that it played a part, but no more than religion played a part in the rise of the Greco-Roman world or China. Perhaps the most important element of any country's rise is Jared Diamond's concept of "guns, germs, and steel", followed by the contributions of brilliant men. In some cases, religion may actually impede (for example, usury laws). Of course, even if a post-religious or post-Christian society had to live up to those lofty ambitions, there is a chance that Sam Harris is right in that society will become more moral and more focused on human well-being, which would be a good legacy to have.

EDIT: The implication of guns, germs, and steel, of course, is that if the Native Americans had instead lived in Europe with all of its incredible advantages, we would now be arguing about how the Great Spirit played a major part in lifting the continent out of barbarism and to brilliance.
i think this is an excellent post.

also, if empathy is not the ultimate moral virtue, or if the ultimate moral virtues do not occur always in tandem with empathy, then i have not even the most base understanding of morality or ethics.
I think the implication of any system of ethics not based upon empathy is that we are, in some instances, sanctioned in making people more miserable on Earth if we believe that it will accomplish greater good in the afterlife. That is a dangerous precedence, one used by religious fundamentalists all over the world. And if someone argues god really wants him to do something, then there is nothing that anyone can do to argue against it; he might even argue that the Bible itself sanctions his actions (as people have done throughout history to commit atrocities).
 
He wasn't a gnostic atheist, or like Bertrand Russell establishes, just an Agnostic (no atheist). He sure was understandable to those of faith and not contraire to beliefs too.
Just pointing out someone that openly responded about 'faith' positively (neutral to some) and was knowledgeable about the topics the user I quoted responded to.

Are you positing that Einstein was a theist? That's still something of a fuzzy issue. We aren't certain about what his beliefs on the topic were. He used god a lot metaphorically, but he certainly didn't believe in any personal god. He was also hyper critical of religious institutes. Einstein was definitely a free thinker, but it is not at all clear if Einstein belived in gods or not.
 
Yeah this video is pretty much right on. I am trying to find it but I think it was this same guy that quoted John 16:3 which pretty much condemns every "Christian" Religious establishment on the planet.

"New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me."

Does your organization support war and the killing of its own members in other country's? Every religion raises hand. Then apparently you don't know god.
 
Are you positing that Einstein was a theist? That's still something of a fuzzy issue. We aren't certain about what his beliefs on the topic were. He used god a lot metaphorically, but he certainly didn't believe in any personal god. He was also hyper critical of religious institutes. Einstein was definitely a free thinker, but it is not at all clear if Einstein belived in gods or not.

The muddying of waters on this topic is insidious. Einstein made it very clear he didn't believe in God as a being of any sort. He only used the phrase in metaphorical manner to describe the universe and the physical laws that govern it.

Any attempt to suggest more than that is merely the work of religious people trying to hang their hat on a genius.
 
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