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Why do you grind so much that the difficulty level becomes so easy though? If you dont like it i mean. Its a choice that you make yourself afterall.
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Why is grinding in video games a thing that exists
- Thread starter The Llama
- Start date
Yeah I agree with this. I think loot games avoid the "grinding" problem (at least to me) since you're JUST grinding for the sake of leveling up.
Corronchilejano
Member
Yep, as long as the game is good grinding doesn't bother me at all
Why does Diablo get a pass? That game is one giant boring grind.
I friggin hate grinding. It's always seemed like a substitute for skill to me. Hey, do you suck at this game but have shit loads of free time and are easily amused? Then no worries, you'll get everything that skilled player has and more!
It drives me bonkers in Monster Hunter specifically. I love that game, but it hates me. There's no challenge to killing the same monster hundreds of times, other than the challenge to ignore all the time you're pissing away. Thank God the game is largely skill based and doesn't stop you in your tracks if the RNG has it out for you.
I friggin hate grinding. It's always seemed like a substitute for skill to me. Hey, do you suck at this game but have shit loads of free time and are easily amused? Then no worries, you'll get everything that skilled player has and more!
It drives me bonkers in Monster Hunter specifically. I love that game, but it hates me. There's no challenge to killing the same monster hundreds of times, other than the challenge to ignore all the time you're pissing away. Thank God the game is largely skill based and doesn't stop you in your tracks if the RNG has it out for you.
Moon_frogger
Member
Because difficulty is subjective. A boss encounter that you think is 'hard' might be pathetically easy to me . Therefore , you may whine about 'grinding' while I'm moving on to bigger and badder challenges. If you're asking why 'grinding' is a thing maybe you should just straight up point your finger at experience points and levels, because again the difficulty is subjective. Most RPGs with traditional experience points systems try to strike a balance between challenge and the freedom to power up your character to a level you feel appropriate for the challenge being presented.
Also I'm really getting tired of the 'lazy developer' sentiment here on gaf. It's shallow thinking along the lines of the 'entitled gamer' sentiment people were so outraged about a while back,
Also I'm really getting tired of the 'lazy developer' sentiment here on gaf. It's shallow thinking along the lines of the 'entitled gamer' sentiment people were so outraged about a while back,
Aaron Strife
Banned
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Most games allow you to use strategy to overcome bosses. Grinding exists as a cheap way to just power through the game.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
Good thing I didn't said that.
Leafhopper
Banned
I am not the biggest fan of Diablo myself but, the most common reasoning I hear, even from people who don't like grinding, is that they like loot. The loot outweighs the grind for loads of people. I think its the same reason people like doing it Borderlands.
This is like saying As long as something is hot, I don't mind it making me cold.
If something is hot, it's not cold. If a game is good, it doesn't have a grind.
To me, at least, I think the grind in a loot game is different from the grind in a JRPG (or whatever; non-JRPG's can have grinds too!). I think the loot aspect of things makes a big difference. Plus, scale-able difficulty means you're not really grinding for the sake of leveling up.
Scaling can be kinda boring too, really. I personally really like the design that you can completely surpass the abilities of enemies by putting in time. It adds another dimension that scaling completely obliterates, in most cases.
The only reason I'm finding Grinding fun in Diablo is because it's actually putting me in contact with the big crowds and fights that the main game seemed short of. The loot is kinda annoying in some ways; stat-crawl! I do really appreciate the ability to transmogrify and enchant, surely, but even that is REALLY grindy, with not being able to directly choose abilities... I get stuck with items that have specific buffs way longer than I'd like sometimes, or something gets outclassed in all but some random element almost immediately.
Grinding should be fun because of good gameplay systems. One of the reasons why I end up grinding in games like the "Tales Of..." series, is because I actually like the fight gameplay enough to want to try out combos, unlock new skills, reach for higher combos, etc, etc.
Really, the option to grind or not should be behind difficulty settings now. I appreciated this in Tales of Xillia, I appreciated this in Diablo 3. There were many times where I couldn't stand how dry Diablo's combat was getting, and wanted a higher challenge. Other times where I wanted to get through something fast, to get to a certain point. Difficulty switch let me do both easily, all within the same playthrough.
Games are generally skill-based at their best. To raise skill, you generally have to "grind" through practice. Decently-paced grinding should let you feel as if you've got a challenge ahead, that you get closer and closer to overcoming it, and that eventually, you surpass it, and can move on to new challenges to conquer.
Don't get me wrong though, I think some grinds are just obnoxious too! I find Monster Hunter to be a bit overly-grindy now-a-days, and ones that push things way, WAY beyond the level you'd normally expect to play a game reasonably. There's a LOT of RPG like systems being put into games now a days, and not everyone knows how to make a well paced EXP curve...
Grinding is hands down my favorite part of an RPG.
That may seem ridiculous, but i find immense pleasure in not only taking the time to grind but also discovering for myself the best method to do so.
Being overpowered is also a guilty pleasure of mine that i have always loved.
FFXIV is like the best grinding ever, it offers tons of diversity and big rewards for diversifying. Finding the best way is so much fun.
That may seem ridiculous, but i find immense pleasure in not only taking the time to grind but also discovering for myself the best method to do so.
Being overpowered is also a guilty pleasure of mine that i have always loved.
FFXIV is like the best grinding ever, it offers tons of diversity and big rewards for diversifying. Finding the best way is so much fun.
I'm leaning to agree on this. Or at least, I don't see much (if *any*) examples that disagrees with that.
The only thing I don't agree with is the fact that it's always because of the player. Sometimes, the game isn't explained well, and you can just miss some critical parts.
There's also games like Valkyria Chronicles (a game I *love*) that make the game easier if you play well (characters level faster if you get good scores, but having good characters helps a lot to get good scores). If you're not good in the first missions (or if you just test many things, out of curiosity), I guess you may be forced some training to compensate a bit.
And games where some classes choices make the game far more difficult without grinding a bit (you can change your party to avoid grinding, but when the game let you choose several options, you don't always want to choose the most efficient one).
That being said, I usually try to finish my games without leveling more than the direct path to keep the difficulty high, but once the game is done, I just love grinding. Post-game Disgaea is wonderful to me.
I think for 99% of modern JRPGs grinding is pretty much a boogieman that doesn't exist anymore or at worst crops up at one annoying point, either it's their inadequacy at playing a game, rushing through an area, or they WANT to do it and actively seek it out. Though I guess some will consider it a grind just to try to find most encounters in a dungeon/field/whatever, but so long as it's not abnormally high (or you're being dumb and sticking with fights that aren't worth the effort and you can easily escape) I don't consider that a grind, just normal game progression much like getting stuck in a protracted conflict in some other genres.
Older ones this WAS an issue, but that was at a time when games needed to be stretched out and I suspect less refined game design and senses of balance.
Moon_frogger
Member
Also grinding 'or repeating content for better items and skills ' if that is the context, can be fun if it's a multiplayer situation with the right people. It's why mmos are so popular. When I first got to dcuo endgame and realized the horrifying 'gear treadmill' I was being ushered onto, I almost stopped playing. Then I got into a great group with lots of different, fun people who made it, along with the enjoyable mechanics of combat, a fun experience no matter how many times we were plowing through the same old content.
I could have understood that years ago, but my experience with modern examples is that you get a lot of loot, but it's mostly garbage. Upgrades so incremental/insignificant that they're meaningless. This is basically what made me ultimately throw my hands in the air and walk away from the genre entirely. They aren't for me, which is cool, I just thought it odd to excuse Diablo from a conversation about grinding. Be it for stats on your character, or stats on your weapon.
flatearthpandas
Member
Out of EOIII, IV, and Untold, Untold is the only Etrian Odyssey game I've had to grind to progress in. And I was really frustrated that grinding seemed required (I blame this entirely on floor jump). Not bragging because I'm honestly not very good at those games, just saying they are not grinding games.
Astral Dog
Member
It can be fun.
Also I think you have to consider what content you're going for. Disgaea for example is perfectly doable to play normally more or less without grinding, but the post game CAN require it, and frankly it's designed in a way to be really enjoyable and addictive as finding the right exploit has you rocketing in levels then doing it over for higher stats, and at a fast pace... which is kind of needed given you'd then want to do this with multiple characters.
I tend to not grind in those, but I think the secret is that it's sort of masked just mapping floors out and needing to run out for resupplying. Just as well, the real issue with grinding was always that it was mind numbingly pacing back and forth, not poking and see what new stuff you can find or what new areas you can reach before you need to pull back. Though that arguably creates a similar issue of needing to retrace your steps over and over.
Sentenza
Member
Well, I also happen to think it's a (mostly) false answer, so I can't say I would be simply content with it.
Leafhopper
Banned
I see what you mean. I don't excuse it but the only difference I ever hear myself is just "loot" from it being any different from a JRPGs grind so yeah I don't get it myself.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
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This is the only form of grind in a game that I'm ok with.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
In what way is she false? She is completely correct.
In Shin Megami Tensei III, for example, I got to a certain an endgame boss and my team and skill setup sucked. Instead of backtracking and spending hours getting new party members and reworking my skill setup, as well as leveling up, I decided to take on the boss with my subpar team. I was able to defeat the boss not by brute forcing it to death but by draining all of its MP. Sure, the fight took longer than it should have, but I felt immensely satisfied by using a rather unorthodox strategy for it instead of simply grinding.
These games give you a large amount of tools. If you want to ignore them and just try to brute force everything, you can. But they give you more than enough to deal with just about any battle without the need to grind.
Never come across a RPG where you need to grind to progress the main story, then again I usually do all sidequests, try to be efficient in getting best equipment by hoarding the right materials with loot drops instead of buying in shops etc.
Also enemies scaling with the main character can be annoying in it's own right, where it's beneficial to go play the game at a low level like Bethsada RPG's and Tactics Ogre is tedious if you're aiming for different storyline routes.
Also enemies scaling with the main character can be annoying in it's own right, where it's beneficial to go play the game at a low level like Bethsada RPG's and Tactics Ogre is tedious if you're aiming for different storyline routes.
ActuallyHulk
Banned
I accept it in Dragon Quest but that's about it.
SocksForWoks
Banned
This is why I love the Disgaea series. There is never any rewardless grinding, You're always leveling up the stats of your characters or gear.
tiggerkiddo
Member
While modern RPG's don't require grinding...I don't mind a good grind. I hate it when games try to discourage grinding and punish me for trying to level grind. If I want to go crazy and become super strong real early in the game so I can essentially steamroll everything except maybe secret bosses, let me do so.
I'd like to see counter examples then, because fundamentally it's all math, and as long as everything's aligned right (EXP you'd get, number of encounters you'd face along a certain path, etc) it should come out roughly the same with similar actions taken, so it seems more a debate about what is/isn't a grind.
By and large I'd say if a game requires grinding, it's a poorly designed game. Grinding is amongst the worst thing in games, and that's coming from someone who's favourite genre is RPG's
Having said that I don't think I've played a game that required grinding (for main content anyway) in several years, possibly even a decade. Juat do the things along the way like at least some of the sidequests and don't skip battles, and you're pretty much strong enough for anything the game throws at you with minimal usage of tactics and consumable items. Use those properly and there's not really a RPG I've played in years that I'd call difficult. If you decide to do all the sidequests along the way, you'll just be overpowered jnstead with no grinding. Xenoblade recently is an example where every main story scenario was a joke because I was overpowered from doing the simple sidequests
FFXIV is a RNG fest. 4 weeks of 2nd coil and yet to see anything for my Dragoon? Now it's just annoying and I find myself losing the will to play. Heck my Warrior is catching up in iLevel now
Having said that I don't think I've played a game that required grinding (for main content anyway) in several years, possibly even a decade. Juat do the things along the way like at least some of the sidequests and don't skip battles, and you're pretty much strong enough for anything the game throws at you with minimal usage of tactics and consumable items. Use those properly and there's not really a RPG I've played in years that I'd call difficult. If you decide to do all the sidequests along the way, you'll just be overpowered jnstead with no grinding. Xenoblade recently is an example where every main story scenario was a joke because I was overpowered from doing the simple sidequests
FFXIV is a RNG fest. 4 weeks of 2nd coil and yet to see anything for my Dragoon? Now it's just annoying and I find myself losing the will to play. Heck my Warrior is catching up in iLevel now
Sentenza
Member
In the sense that when people claim "you don't need grinding at all in modern JRPGs" what they mean is more accurately something like
"You don't need OBSCENE amounts of grinding in JRPGs, just a casual, friendly amount of it.
That, of course, if you are also willing to miss out secrets and optional content and give up any ambition as a completionist".
I would pay good money to watch anyone playing a game like Dragon Quest VIII simply moving from goal to goal and going through the story without ANY amount of "wandering around leveling up your party".
No matter what kind of "tactical genius" you think to be (and quite frankly we aren't even talking about systems complex enough to offer a particularly impressive range of tactical options), you would start to feel underleveled pretty damn soon, and the more straight you would attempt to proceed after that, the worse it would be over time.
What I noticed over the years is that most people who claim "I don't grind at all in JRPG and I manage just fine because of my tactical brilliance" are typically similar to MMO players who say "I can be pretty rich in World of Warcraft without being a no lifer and just playing casually. Just a couple of daily quests to make money..." then you sit down and watch them play and you realize they waste an impressive amount of hours doing those "quick daily quests which aren't time-demanding at all".
I don't mind it, especially if it's fast and fun. I know some folks here say that if you have to grind in Dragon Quest games, you're not playing it correctly, but whatever, I enjoy grinding in those games, leveling up, gaining full job mastery, etc., especially when several fights can be completed in the time it takes to do one in, say, many PS1-era RPGs.
This is part of why I bring up "what do you really consider a grind?" because while a very straight, barebones progression forward may leave you underleveled, that doesn't sem very fun unless you're trying to speed run versus trying to explore the landscape and dungeons reasonably thoroughly. To me the real problematic grinding is where you're stuck pacing back and forth in one spot until you gain enough EXP to get a few levels and actually stand a chance against a boss, not because you happened to get that EXP from wandering around and not fleeing from a lot of battles.
Though it still can come out in degree, IE a game has a few really tough bosses that merit a grind (I definitely ended up needing to take the pace around approach to DQV's endgame) and people may just come across metal slimes or similarly exploitable EXP pots and grind a little on those just to get the massive returns while they can.
Sentenza
Member
Because that's exactly what it is.
It's all about how flexible people are in defining grinding. Some seem to recognize some activities as grinding only when they protract beyond a certain threshold.
Grinding is rarely in modern games these days, apart from when it concerns RNG loot/item drops.
A lot of people confuse grinding with levelling, or such, grinding is generally a bad thing/padding content/pointless exercise, just fighting battles for a few hours to progress characters, isn't really grinding in the use of the term for a bad system, as it's rewarding.
Grinding for the sake of grinding, i.e padding content, is bad though.
Just depends on the context really.
A lot of people confuse grinding with levelling, or such, grinding is generally a bad thing/padding content/pointless exercise, just fighting battles for a few hours to progress characters, isn't really grinding in the use of the term for a bad system, as it's rewarding.
Grinding for the sake of grinding, i.e padding content, is bad though.
Just depends on the context really.
I like some grinding. Xenoblade hits the grinding itch I get real good.
I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't want to grind in their games but for me it can be enjoyable, what can I say? But it does depend on the game, I mean I really have to like the game to really enjoy grinding.
I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't want to grind in their games but for me it can be enjoyable, what can I say? But it does depend on the game, I mean I really have to like the game to really enjoy grinding.
I call grinding when you are repeating the same or similar monotonous action again and again that has no use other than to get exp, money or an item drop.
However if you get loads of levels, money or loot via clearing dungeons, missions, sidequests, raids and actual game content, I wouldn't really call that grinding
However if you get loads of levels, money or loot via clearing dungeons, missions, sidequests, raids and actual game content, I wouldn't really call that grinding
Yes going directly from point A to B without any exploration or attempt to discover sidequests at all will result in the need to grind (running around in circles fighting the same enemies explicitly to level up, this is your definition right?) in order to beat certain bosses in some RPGs. Also, yes, if you want to be a completionist for whatever reason, you'll probably need to do that too.
Nobody's denying that, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with your argument. People are pushing back on the idea that the only way to beat the boss in any modern RPG is to run around in circles leveling up. If your definition of grinding is more generous than that then of course no one will be able to satisfy you, but that's a personal idiosyncrasy.
Riposte
Member
Are you limiting this to "JRPGs"?
Because some nerds love that shit.
Playing Persona 4 was seriously one of the most mind numbing things. Boring combat, and the game does a shit job of keeping you appropriately leveled throughout almost the entire game.
If it didn't have such fun characters and an interesting story, I would've dropped it in like an hour.
Playing Persona 4 was seriously one of the most mind numbing things. Boring combat, and the game does a shit job of keeping you appropriately leveled throughout almost the entire game.
If it didn't have such fun characters and an interesting story, I would've dropped it in like an hour.
Not really. I guess there can be a fine line between content and "grinding" in the case of some side quests. I tend to think of having a specific objective as content, and these quests are often structured in to the balance of the game. Big difference between that and killing hours for levels.
It's very possible to do this for DQ8. Unless you consider the cheese side quest at the beginning of the game and having a monster team "grinding." It can be challenging (and extremely satisfying), but I've done this probably 2 or 3 times. DQ8 is an incredibly well balanced game - many people play it consistently 5-10 levels higher than they need to be.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Because the guard for rewards were once Skill Walls, and that was somehow bad. Recent MMOs, recent FPSs, alot of recent games, really.
Thanks for picking a specific game! In Persona 4 (PS2 version) you are expected to fuse smartly and maybe do some of the sidequests that pop up every once in a while in order to beat a couple of the bosses. In Persona 4 Golden (Vita version), you are not even required to do that, as I understand it. Dungeons might have been mind numbing, but it wasn't because you were required to run around in circles leveling up in order to win.