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Why is grinding in video games a thing that exists

Yes going directly from point A to B without any exploration or attempt to discover sidequests at all will result in the need to grind (running around in circles fighting the same enemies explicitly to level up, this is your definition right?) in order to beat certain bosses in some RPGs. Also, yes, if you want to be a completionist for whatever reason, you'll probably need to do that too.
Yeah, pretty much, except I wasn't really suggesting to skip side quests and skip content. Quite the opposite (or I wouldn't point how hard it can be to be a completionist, would I?). I was specifically referring to how the problem typically emerges even when you move from quest to quest, but doing it at a steady place instead of deliberately taking your time to level up generously.

Nobody's denying that, so I'm not sure what your trying to prove with your argument.
Uh... I'm "trying to prove" exactly what we are saying. There's no a hidden agenda. There's no reason to be, either.

Anyway, it's always a matter of measure and mode.
Now let me stress that for a start I dislike grinding not just when it's "strictly necessary" or "mandatory", but even when it's strongly encouraged and rewarded.
Is killing enemies in general grinding? No, not to me at least (I'm sure it can feel that way to some people, though).
Is killing enemies and having them back the successive time you explore the same area a grind-endorsing mechanic? Yes, yes it is.

There are games that make it more or less evident according to how they tune their mechanics, though.
Dark Souls is a game that encourages grinding (and it's the only aspect of its design I don't strictly love, for the record) but on the other hand it also rewards it mildly enough to not make grinding the most effective progressing tool. The player in Dark Souls increases in power at a slow pace, he can grow significantly stronger compared to the beginning but in a marginal, incremental way rather than exponentially.
A similar argument could be made for Monster Hunter, which is build around similar principles of progression (Beside not having dedicate stats on the character itself).

Other games, like Ys OiF partially limit the issue making grinding quickly very ineffective.
Once you are on par with your supposed ideal level monsters in that area quickly start to pay abysmal amounts of exp, making grinding more of a pain than it's worth.

Are you limiting this to "JRPGs"?
No, but it's an approach remarkably more pronounced (and common) in the genre.
In games like the Infinity Engine ones (or more recently Divinity Original Sins) for instance, you have simply a limited, finite amount of content for any given area that you can exploit to increase in power, and progression is more marginal anyway. Same goes for Gothic and Risen.

Games like Bloodlines or Pillars of Eternity eliminate the issue entirely, making "exp rewards" tied to achieving goals rather than single actions (like killing monsters).
In games like Ultima the adventure was mostly a "social" matter and leveling up and gaining items was hardly of any particular relevance.

Then you have games like the Bioware and Bethesda ones... They "limit" grinding effectiveness making everything constantly scale on par with your level. But you won't hear me defend that approach. I think mechanically they are complete shit.
 
I actually miss being able to grind properly, I remember in FFVIII I made sure I had there ultimate weapons before I left the first Garden, FFVII I even got Clouds ultimate limit break on disk 1, I miss games where you can grind up so high it makes everything else a cake walk.
 
Thanks for picking a specific game! In Persona 4 (PS2 version) you are expected to fuse smartly and maybe do some of the sidequests that pop up every once in a while in order to beat a couple of the bosses. In Persona 4 Golden (Vita version), you are not even required to do that, as I understand it. Dungeons might have been mind numbing, but it wasn't because you were required to run around in circles leveling up in order to win.

Sidequests probably would have helped bit I couldn't really be bothered. So I ended up having to grind out a couple levels per dungeon. Of course I'm being a little dramatic, and I made it through the game, but it seriously just reminded me why I avoid playing most RPGs.

Just give me the abilities and a mission, and I'll do work. If you're gonna make me work to get new abilities, at least don't make me run around the same 100 square feet of area killing the same enemy over and over.
 
Hoagies & Grinders!

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I almost never grind in JRPGs. The only times I can remember actively leaving an area to grind were in one of the older Dragon Quest games, where I wanted to get enough money to get better gear for my party before moving on, and in the Last Remnant, because I didn't have any resurrection spells on any of my units when I ran up against Gates of Hell.
 
Because some nerds love that shit.

Playing Persona 4 was seriously one of the most mind numbing things. Boring combat, and the game does a shit job of keeping you appropriately leveled throughout almost the entire game.

This game has experience scaling, which means that you'll receive more exp for being underleveled or less exp for being overleveled.

For example: Enemy level 40
MC is level 47, he'll receive only 30% exp
Yukiko is level 30, she'll receive 400% exp.

The more you grind, the less effective it is.
 
Grinding is different from random enemy encounters you can't help but fight between getting from point A to point B. Grinding to me is specifically running through the same location in order to defeat the same enemies over and over again with the single goal of increasing stats.

Grinding in JRPGs is usually a option, not a requirement. It exists for people who want a easier challenge, assurance, or some who actually enjoy grinding enemies to get max stats. Using Persona 4 as an example, just by exploring through a dungeon and killing enemies on the way to the boss, I gain an adequate number of levels on any given dungeon to defeat whatever is at the top floor.
 
Yeah, pretty much, except I wasn't really suggesting to skip side quests and skip content. Quite the opposite (or I wouldn't point how hard it can be to be a completionist, would I?). I was specifically referring to how the problem typically emerges even when you move from quest to quest, but doing it at a steady place instead of deliberately taking your time to level up generously.

Okay yeah, looks like everyone's in agreement basically, except I'm still not sure what you mean by the bolded. What's a steady pace? Not doing sidequests?

As for your examples, gating experience when you get to a certain level is something that happens in a lot of RPGs I play (Soul Hackers, for example, a 17 year old game which I just beat) and yeah that's one of the smarter solutions to discourage mindless grinding.

As for DQ8, I beat it (including the optional post-ending dungeon) by completing sidequests (like assembling a good monster team and getting to that mountain right at the beginning of the game) and wandering around looking for treasure chests. I never made the decision to park in a certain place and run around in circles, even when I found a nice spot with metal slimes! I don't think I'm a rarity, someone else in the thread just said they did the same thing, and I'm sure Aeana has done it 10 times.
 
Gives me time for podcasts, but if your game is just grinding I'll fall out of the skinner box eventually, hit my head, and wonder why I went in there in the first place.
 
This game has experience scaling, which means that you'll receive more exp for being underleveled or less exp for being overleveled.

For example: Enemy level 40
MC is level 47, he'll receive only 30% exp
Yukiko is level 30, she'll receive 400% exp.

The more you grind, the less effective it is.
Never mind that in Persona it's more about fusing to get better Persona's than levelling, especially in Arcana's that you have your Social Links progressed well. Grinding is pretty pointless and ineffective
 
In the sense that when people claim "you don't need grinding at all in modern JRPGs" what they mean is more accurately something like

"You don't need OBSCENE amounts of grinding in JRPGs, just a casual, friendly amount of it.
That, of course, if you are also willing to miss out secrets and optional content and give up any ambition as a completionist".


I would pay good money to watch anyone playing a game like Dragon Quest VIII simply moving from goal to goal and going through the story without ANY amount of "wandering around leveling up your party".
No matter what kind of "tactical genius" you think to be (and quite frankly we aren't even talking about systems complex enough to offer a particularly impressive range of tactical options), you would start to feel underleveled pretty damn soon, and the more straight you would attempt to proceed after that, the worse it would be over time.

What I noticed over the years is that most people who claim "I don't grind at all in JRPG and I manage just fine because of my tactical brilliance" are typically similar to MMO players who say "I can be pretty rich in World of Warcraft without being a no lifer and just playing casually. Just a couple of daily quests to make money..." then you sit down and watch them play and you realize they waste an impressive amount of hours doing those "quick daily quests which aren't time-demanding at all".

That's a silly extreme.

Most RPGs which require "no grinding" are predicated and balanced on the fact that you will probably chase down 50% of the optional content, such that doing a barebones run will leave you under-leveled, while visiting all the optional content as it pops up will leave you over-leveled, which is really the only rational way to balance the game.

If you balance the game for the 0% optional content people, anyone who does anything strictly unnecessary to the continuation of the story will find the main plotline boring and forgettable because the various challenges they face will be underpowered for the level of power their party possesses just due to leveling up, let alone the better gear they might be equipped with.

Likewise if you balance the game for the 100% optional content people, you'll be left with a game which is unnecessarily hard for anyone who missed even a single secret. Very few people are dedicated enough to a game to explore every single nook and cranny of every single location the very first time they play through a game. You'd have the opposite problem of the previous paragraph, with a game most people considered ridiculously hard or worse, grind-heavy.

Besides, for any RPG, part of the game is exploration. When someone mentions that a cave outside of town has some cool treasure, you're not supposed to growl "Pass!" every single time and continue your march down the line towards the main plot. Sure, sometimes you decide you're not in the mood and bypass it. It happens to everyone. But part of the game is going to be balanced on the fact you decided to visit at least a few of these optional items.

It has to be.

Never mind that in Persona it's more about fusing to get better Persona's than levelling, especially in Arcana's that you have your Social Links progressed well. Grinding is pretty pointless and ineffective

Not going to lie. The first time I played Persona 3, a Minato with Thor and Mjolnir equipped basically carried me entirely through the last quarter of the game. There were fights in the last block I had no business being in, except for the fact I could oneshot even the enemies who didn't have a Lightning weakness so long as I hit them.

Good times.
 
My main problem with enabling grinding in a game is that it is generally difficult to determine how much grind is expected from the player. How is the game balanced? Should I be roughly the same level as the enemies? Higher? Lower? Is the boss going to be significantly more difficult than the enemies before it, and would it require me going out of my way to level up before attempting the fight? Grinding, and levelling up mechanics in general, are a way of giving the player control over the difficulty of the game. This is actually a burden for the player because, especially in a first time run of the game, they will not know how what the designer has expected from them. The only way to continue is either trial and error by rushing forward and grinding only when stuck, or attempting to read the designer's mind and grind until they feel ready.

I'm not really a fan of grind in general, because it is by nature repetitious, and generally isn't the most entertaining part of the game. I can see how it'd be more acceptable in a game like Monster Hunter because the core gameplay loop of fighting monsters is the most interesting and exciting element in the game. Surely, however, the drive and entertainment of a role playing game such as, for example, Final Fantasy comes from driving the plot forward, finding new areas, fighting new monsters? Not stomping the same old ground and crushing the same goblins for half an hour. I am very suspicious of gameplay that serves to 'waste' time. Many games could be improved by becoming tighter and more solid experiences if their repetitive and weaker elements were cropped out. This leads to a shorter game, however, and brevity is unfortunately considered a detriment to a role playing game.

I understand that thematically, grind can be integrated into the story and theme of the game. In Pokémon, you are meant to cultivate your relationship with your monster companions by training and battling with them for long periods of time - the way the game ensures that you stick with them is by making the process lengthy. Grind fits with the plot and theme here because you can probably overcome any challenge the game spits at you with any set of Pokémon you want, granted you have trained them to a sufficient level. Grind is used to foster connections between the player and their companions, and it works very well here. Pokémon X and Y, The latest games in the series, implement an item that is essentially an optional 'fast-forward' for grind. Whether that is a positive or detrimental to the theme is up to the player, and they can control it as they wish. It becomes particularly useful when exploring end-game content, as the player will want to quickly get low-level Pokémon up to speed.

Cthulhu Saves the World implements an interesting concept. The game lets you know when you've been grinding 'enough' by limiting encounters per area, so once the well has dried up the player knows it is a good point to move on and that they will not be punished for being under or over levelled. This is a great way of hinting the game's ideal balance to the player, but as they can manually select to continue battling from a menu, they can also control the game's difficulty.

I think grind can be implemented in rewarding and fulfilling ways, but it depends on the theme of the game, and whether the gameplay associated with the grind is where the most fun and rewarding part of the game lies. I believe time wasting elements should be culled from games because I don't like having my time wasted. I also don't like the burden of balancing a game put on my shoulders unless it's my own game!

Oops! Long first post. Hi NeoGAF!
 
Okay yeah, looks like everyone's in agreement basically, except I'm still not sure what you mean by the bolded. What's a steady pace? Not doing sidequests?
Again? No. It means that if I have my main goal (i.e the next boss which I know where to find) and a couple of side quests I will go straight for them, without spending a hour "accidentally" jumping around and triggering dozens of random, repeatable fights, just to claim "Phew, I easily did everything without ANY grinding" at the end.
 
Again? No. It means that if I have my main goal (i.e the next boss which I know where to find) and a couple of side quests I will go straight for them, without spending a hour "accidentally" jumping around and triggering dozens of random, repeatable fights, just to claim "Phew, I easily did everything without ANY grinding" at the end.

Alrighty then! Who's claiming that last bit though? Surely not anyone in this thread!

Looks like a bunch of people here agree with you, if you try to go for some sidequests, deliberately triggering dozens of repeatable fights isn't necessary to win.
 
In good jRPGs, there is NEVER the need to grind, and those who feel the need to do so, are generally just bad players, or players that haven't investigated the combat system enough; so they grind until they can beat the enemy with their favorite spell and normal attack, without using debuffs and status changes.
There are also players such as myself who like grinding! Being overpowered with plentiful items and money just plain feels good!
 
Alrighty then! Who's claiming that last bit though? Surely not anyone in this thread!

But people in this thread, on the other hand, are once again trying to claim the opposite: that is entirely possible to play all these JRPGs moving from goal to goal as steadily as I'm suggesting, without experiencing any struggle based on "exp starving" and feeling under-leveled.
They are making the very same claim since I've memory of reading those boards for the first time, but I will insist that in my personal experience that's in most cases a complete lie.

I think most of them just don't realize how much they grind "casually" on a consistent basis. That's where the comparison to many WoW's "daily questers" came from.
"Oh, it really didn't take me much work to farm my in-game money". Yes, it totally did?
 
But people in this thread, on the other hand, are once again trying to claim the opposite: that is entirely possible to play all these JRPGs moving from goal to goal as steadily as I'm suggesting, without experiencing any struggle based on "exp starving" and feeling under-leveled.
They are making the very same claim since I've memory of reading those boards for the first time, but I will insist that in my personal experience that's in most cases a complete lie.

I think most of them just don't realize how much they grind "casually" on a consistent basis.

Now we're narrowing things down! So even if you "feel" under-leveled, then that means grinding is considered a requirement? Who cares about that as long as you win? Winning by the skin of your teeth is pretty fun actually.

Also you calling me and everyone else who got through DQ8 "steadily" as you're suggesting liars?

Edit: I don't know anything about WoW, I don't play MMOs. One of the main reasons for that is that as far as I can tell they require grinding.
 
But people in this thread, on the other hand, are once again trying to claim the opposite: that is entirely possible to play all these JRPGs moving from goal to goal as steadily as I'm suggesting, without experiencing any struggle based on "exp starving" and feeling under-leveled.
They are making the very same claim since I've memory of reading those boards for the first time, but I will insist that in my personal experience that's in most cases a complete lie.

I think most of them just don't realize how much they grind "casually" on a consistent basis. That's where the comparison to many WoW's "daily questers" came from.
"Oh, it really didn't take me much work to farm my in-game money". Yes, it totally did?

If you're skipping every single thing you're not strictly required by the plot to do to advance, I'm not sure you entirely understand the point of playing an RPG in the first place. That'd be like playing a Devil May Cry game and not bothering to upgrade your moves, or playing a TPS like Gears of War and sticking just to the default gun.

Yes, technically you're playing the game, but you're missing the underlying point and purpose the game seeks to fulfill and if the game expected you to perform these actions, you've got nobody to blame but yourself when something comes up later in the plot which expected you to take those actions.
 
It's impossible to predict the actions of an arbitrary person in a complex genre like the RPG which means it's very hard to accurately tune the experience for as many people as possible. Some will spend too much time exploring or doing sidequests which means you're probably overleveled for the next section, suddenly the game begins to bore you as you feel there's a lack of challenge. Others are genre veterans who go real deep with the game's mechanics. There are plenty of playstyles and as a developer you have to strike a balance. The point is that it's pretty much impossible to satisfy all of them and as a result some will have to suffer grinding, because maybe the dev predicted you'd do a certain, super obvious big sidequest chain but for some reason didn't do it, missing out on a ton of exp. So now you are underleveled and thus have to grind for awhile.

This is one of the reasons I dislike non linear and open world games, I prefer perfectly tuned experiences where there is little room for miscommunication between the player and developer. What they intended should be crystal clear.

Because I don't play RPGs, especially today's non linear ones, I don't have any experience outside of Xenoblade Chronicles. The only real grind wall I encountered was near the end when you're inside bionis. The game's leveling structure impressed me, but it's also because it's a linear/focused game in terms of story. Pokemon also fixed this issue by introducing a new exp system, which makes it much more convenient to neither be over or under leveled, ensuring you never feel forced to grind or stuck with your current Pokemon.
 
If you're skipping every single thing you're not strictly required by the plot to do to advance
Except I'm not arguing about skipping *anything* except repeatable combat. If anything, the opposite. I'm pointing how increasingly hard it can become when you are trying to be a completionist, do even additional challenges and achieve the most powerful gear if you are not willing to submit yourself to tedious grinding.

How are you still missing this after I stressed the difference several times already?

Edit: I don't know anything about WoW, I don't play MMOs. One of the main reasons for that is that as far as I can tell they require grinding.
They definitely do, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But even there you'll find plenty of people ready to swear on their mother that they don't need to grind too much or at all.

Now, since this argument isn't anything new I know for a fact that there are few people who are absolutely convinced I have a secret hate for JRPGs specifically. They are wrong, I have a very explicit, vocal, and not-secret-at-all hate for grinding and farming in general. I think JRPGs are commonly guilt of this; I don't think they are the only ones. I have fierce criticism about the MMO genre for the very same reason and I'm absolutely convinced both genres (and others with them) need to outgrow this idea of padding the content to inflate the perceived value of what they offer.
 
No way is Diablo 3 a grind at all. Working your way up through the Torment difficulties and being able to solo Rifts by yourself after running with random people in adventure mode makes me feel accomplished. Being able to strike down that which used to kill you over and over feels so good.

I can't play MMOs anymore because I lost interest from the amount of grinding I ended up doing at each endgame content in WoW for so many years, which luckily I haven't played for almost a full year(yay). Attempted FF14 when I had my ps3 and once I hit end content I found myself in that same position and said NOPE.
 
I'd imagine to add value to potentially earned items, levels, experience etc, and to give gamers something to strive to or aim towards. Eg a certain unlock or weapon, ability, attack etc. Not everything in gaming has to be about instant gratification in favour of short attention spans and less time investment or effort. As long as the grind is fun, and the combat or whatever is engaging and interesting, grinding can actually be an effective way to add additional content and purpose.
 
Because you don't actually need to grind in modern JRPGs. You just do it so you can push through battles without any strategy.

If you needed to grind, low-level runs simply wouldn't work.

Seriously. It seems like some players come to a strong boss fight and die once or twice and become absolutely furious at the fact that they might need to fight a couple more battles to get a little stronger. Some of my most satisfying battles were the one's where I went in early and it became a battle of attrition.

And I kinda like "Grinding". I would prefer to call it "training" actually. Going back to past locations and discovering treasures and earning new abilities on the way is the bread and butter of what I enjoy in JRPGs. I think the grind is a necessity of the JRPG genre. If not, a "Beat boss now so I don't slow down my progress" button to please everyone? Nah.

MMORPGs though, are kinda obscene with the grind. Probably why I refuse to play them.
 
But people in this thread, on the other hand, are once again trying to claim the opposite: that is entirely possible to play all these JRPGs moving from goal to goal as steadily as I'm suggesting, without experiencing any struggle based on "exp starving" and feeling under-leveled.
They are making the very same claim since I've memory of reading those boards for the first time, but I will insist that in my personal experience that's in most cases a complete lie.

I think most of them just don't realize how much they grind "casually" on a consistent basis. That's where the comparison to many WoW's "daily questers" came from.
"Oh, it really didn't take me much work to farm my in-game money". Yes, it totally did?

You've basically said this, so I guess I'll just agree and maybe clarify.

If your definition of grinding is doing any additional combat outside of what is strictly (that is, minimally) necessary to get from quest point A to quest point B, then yes, I would say that 99.9% of all RPGs, not just JRPGs, have grinding in them. In other words, if you don't like the combat in an RPG, then it's all grinding.

Not only do I disagree with that definition, but I find it mildly annoying, as the implication of grinding in this context is that combat in a RPG is a chore, rather than being an enjoyable part of the game loop to look forward to.

My definition of grinding would probably be doing the typical 2-Square Shuffle in some (preferably easily exploitable) area to farm EXP, items or gold. Again, this would be opposed to simply dealing with encounters as they come as a natural byproduct of exploration or moderate use of side quests. A more reasonable middle ground would basically be exactly what Zaku has been trying to explain for a few posts now in the last page or two.

Given that middle ground definition, I would definitely say that grinding is not necessary in the majority of good, modern JRPGs.
 
I loved how Xenoblade handled it, discovering new aareas and completing sidequests were far more effective ways of getting experience and money than killing the same enemies over and over again!
 
I like grinding in RPGs, but I dislike grinding on MMORPGS, mostly not because of the grind itself, but because of all the requirements attached to the grinding (set groups/times for raiding or no chance at endgame, life doesn't allow time for that anymore)
 
Except I'm not arguing about skipping *anything* except repeatable combat. If anything, the opposite. I'm pointing how increasingly hard it can become when you are trying to be a completionist, do even additional challenges and achieve the most powerful gear if you are not willing to submit yourself to tedious grinding.

How are you still missing this after I stressed the difference several times already?

Except you've defined any strictly unnecessary combat, which I gather includes any enemies in your path which you defeated once as you've previously mentioned, as "grinding".

However given what a large part of the basic gameplay combat sequences in RPGs are, I wouldn't call it grinding at all. Yes, it's an obstacle in your path going to and from a place, but those obstacles should be expected. Overcoming those obstacles is part of the core gameplay. The game is doing something wrong if you're just wandering a map without opposition.

For myself (and, I imagine, a large portion of anyone who plays RPGs), I'd define grinding in an RPG as mindlessly, repetitively killing enemies for no other purpose but to continue to kill. I'll grant that repetitive, endlessly repeatable MMO dailies would fall under this same banner, but that's about as far as I'm willing to stretch the definition.
 
Problem with most grinding systems is that they replace game-play instead of compliment it.

The idea, and I suppose there can be debate over this, comes from old pen & paper role-playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. The whole point is that it's supposed to represent a long-term journey. The classic role-play gamer appreciates the idea of 'building' a character for 6 or 12 months. It used to take months upon months to level-up in old pen & paper RPGs, and if you ever played them for the purpose of reaching X level or achievement, it would be a silly and pointless grind. But no one played them that way. You played them because the game-play itself was fun, and it was cool to build a character slowly over 6 or 12 months.

The same intention translated into computer games, and somewhat was successful in some RPGs. You could say most of EverQuest's original 'value' was because it had such a grind. The whole experience was building up a character slowly over many months and the social interaction you had while doing it. The original idea for Ultima Online where you'd spend many weeks building a skill, a few hours a day practicing your blacksmithing, but not treating it too much like a means to an end.

Proper use of 'grinding' or any leveling system that 'could' be a grind is that you're never actually supposed to grind.The game should be playable on its own merits without 'grinding,' and then the leveling system is there to further add an RPG dimension to your character building.

Then, there has been some use of grinding, purposefully, to create a fake sense of achievement. This can somewhat work in some RPGs. I mean, I said EverQuest and let's be fair, no one would probably have played EverQuest that way without grinding, so it sort of fails that first test that I said. But most people that enjoyed EverQuest still enjoyed the grind because it represented a different sort of gameplay -- a gameplay not about the specific actions but what they represent. They give more meaning to your reward, basically. A lot of people that play RPGs want a sense of achievement from character progression, and slow grinds are one of the best ways to do that. There are people that enjoy and appreciate that, so that's why grinding is still a high demand part of MMOs and RPGs, if only for a niche of gamers.

The biggest problem is when games use grinding in games that either genuinely replace content or for gamers that don't care about grinding. You could say that original EverQuest passed these 2 tests. It certainly never 'replaced' content -- Verant would not have magicaly been able to make more content without grinding. They were already had 100% capacity for content. It just extended the current content. Which the gamers at the time wanted.

But there are games, especially console games, where it genuinely feels like the game development was lazy and used grinding as an excuse to not put more effort into content. Or, the game had no reason to have a grind. World of Warcraft somewhat struggled with this because it had a more casual crowd than EverQuest, and that is why it ultimately became less grind-y. Destiny seems to also be struggling with this a bit right now as obviously a lot of players in it right not dislike the grinding or leveling system for bosses, and it doesn't have the content (both in terms of quantity and quality) of a Warcraft or the itemization of a Diablo. In old Japanese RPGs, sometimes it felt like grinding did nothing but replace content, because there was low demand for grinding from a RPG player perspective (this was just a character you used for 2 weeks, not some personal character you wanted to build for 6 months) or because it genuinely felt like instead of adding a new cave or mountain before a boss, the game just forced you to fight the same slimes or bombs over and over.

You could argue a game like Shadowrun on the GENESIS was one of the best examples of old pen and paper RPG gameplay on a console. There was no real story progress, per se, though there were a few unlocks to progress the story to the final boss. But the game as a whole was mostly just grinding 'runs' to become strong enough to complete the very tiny story parts. And, if you played Shadowrun on the Genesis just to finish the story, it was a boring grinding game. But that's not why most people played the game. They play it, and hopefully some still play it (as I do) because it has one of the most fun 'random mission' systems in any RPG still to date. Even to this day (and this is in part to the 80s synth/cyberpunk-esque soundtrack by Tangerine Dream), when I do some of the Heists in GTA V, they remind me of and make me think about Shadowrun's mission system. You grinded in Shadowrun because it was just a blast to create a character, recruit a team, and then go raid or hack a MegaCorp's headquarters. It was incredibly grinding, objectively speaking, and almost every missions was repetitive, but to this day it's still one of the most fun 'grinds' in my opinion just because of all the other parts (the character progression, the music and atmosphere, the art) compliment the game so well that the 'grind' doesn't feel like a grind. It just feels like an old school RPG where you go into the game, decide what sort of mission you want to do for the evening, and go on a 'run.' In Shadowrun's case, it was a grind if you played it just for an 'achievement' like reaching a level or finishing the story, but if you played Shadowrun because you genuinely loved the gameplay, then the grind of it all complimented the gameplay with a great slow progression of character development.

The best grinding games I've played are games where I never feel forced to grind. I grind like crazy in FF Tactics, sometimes reaching Level 20 or 30 before the story even starts or progresses passes Chapter 1, just because leveling and fighting in that game is so fun. I grind like crazy in Diablo games before the item progression compliments it with small 'dings', and I grind like crazy in old MMOs because as an old school RPG player, I appreciate the idea of joing a MMO community and building a character, persona, and community over 2-3 years. The 'boring grinds' of skills in UO and SWG are, to this date, still the best world/community fostering gameplay I've ever seen in a computer game, and by far the closest I've seen a game genuinely establish a real virtual community and lifestyle. I remember grinding Cecil and Kain to like Lv17 or something, which took hours upon hours, in FF2(IV) before that first Titan fight, just because I wanted to see if I could survive, and I remember grinding 4 months 24/7 to become the first High Warlord Warrior on one of the biggest WoW PvP servers because I loved the lore, community, and setting of Warcraft so much that I just 'wanted' to my character to be 'that character' -- a High Overlord Saurfang type of character. I even wrote journals and blogged role-played pictures to 'craft' that 'war story'. In the same way, we used to play D&D every weekend for months, slowly crafting and building up a character in old pen & paper RPGs. All of these things could have been perceived as grinding, or felt like grinding if you didn't enjoy the gameplay and just wanted to 'ding X'. But the negative parts of grinding were not something I felt when I personally did them. For me, it was just great RPG character progression. So, there are games, for certain types of gamers, where grinding can work as a tool for 'character story', if you will -- a way to add an extra measure to who your character is and what they're achieved.

But there have been a lot of games, too, where the only reason I did it was because I felt I was forced to do so to progress the story or only because there was some interest unlock behind a certain 'ding.' And there have been a lot of other games where, even if I enjoyed the grinding, I felt like it didn't suit the game or the vast majority of folks playing it.
 
While modern RPG's don't require grinding...I don't mind a good grind. I hate it when games try to discourage grinding and punish me for trying to level grind. If I want to go crazy and become super strong real early in the game so I can essentially steamroll everything except maybe secret bosses, let me do so.

Most people don't grasp when they go out of the intended way, so if their natural behavior is to grind which means you can brute force every enemy with ease, they will complain the game is boring, i.e. lacks depth and challenge.

I respect people like you who at least understand that you're breaking the intended experience and thus can't properly judge the video game, but I personally don't care for that kind of stuff. It's like you decided as a player to use knife only in a FPS and then complain you constantly get killed and that the game is too unbalanced and boring. The truth is you are intended to play the game in a certain way. Some games have room for customization, take the job system in FF as an example. How you set up the team is up to you, but again if you play without a character with healing spells don't complain the game is too challenging, it's your fault for not realizing the basics.

Why do you think Nintendo games are structured to simply put remove freedom from the player? It's to avoid miscommunication, so that what the game asks of you is crystal clear. It's why the fire flower was a timed power up in Galaxy, you could only access it in certain sections where you are supposed to use it in order to advance. Imagine if you could bring Yoshi to any level, and with his aid bypass a puzzle section in an unintended way. Which was perhaps meant to be a tutorial on how to use a leaf object. The next time you encounter a similar setup, but with no Yoshi around, you're stuck and frustrated at the game because you didn't learn the leaf trick when you where meant to. That's why they strip freedom, to avoid such situations.
 
It sort of gives a sense of accomplishment for some people, rewarding and somewhat justifying the time spent playing the game. There also wouldn't be any real sense of progression or satisfaction for some people if they played a long game and their character was essentially the same throughout the whole thing.

Level-scaling is terrible because leveling your character usually ends up making the game more difficult, and some games like 'The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion' locks items and mobs behind level tiers.
 
Why do game developers think "hm let's just make the player grind in order to level up/whatever" rather than actually scale the difficulty of the game appropriately.

I can understand (and enjoy, tbf) the "grind" in a loot game like Diablo 3, where you're grinding for new weapons/armor/etc., because that is the whole point of the game game. But with JRPG's and whatever, why is it a "thing" that you have to stay in some areas and grind to get better? I don't get it. If you're playing through a game normally (as in, not intentionally skipping encounters/battles/etc. in order to go faster), I think it's dumb that you have to grind somewhere.

Yeah, this is kind of a random rant, but grinding is games is just something I've never understood.

Lots of reasons: People enjoy collecting things. There is a specific segment of the gaming population that LOVES leveling up, adding points, creating a character, and making something their own. "Grinding" gives a player this type of control over a facet of a game. I'm really enjoying collecting new gear in destiny. I only wish they would have added more things I could collect and adjust to make my character more unique than others. Why not a rune system like diablo 3 where it would change my bullet attributes, grenade's, and special abilities?
 
Imagine if you could bring Yoshi to any level, and with his aid bypass a puzzle section in an unintended way. Which was perhaps meant to be a tutorial on how to use a leaf object. The next time you encounter a similar setup, but with no Yoshi around, you're stuck and frustrated at the game because you didn't learn the leaf trick when you where meant to. That's why they strip freedom, to avoid such situations.

It's part of what I was getting at with an earlier post.

Even if I don't like sniper rifles, when Gears of War starts throwing them at me from enemies instead of more Lancer ammo, I understand that "Hey, maybe the game is trying to tell me something by giving me all of these. I should pick one up and figure out how to use it well."

It's the same with optional content in an RPG. When the game continues to offer me small caves to explore and sidequests to partake in, I understand "Hey, the game keeps offering me powerful equipment if I go poke around off the beaten path. Maybe I should do some exploring instead of mindlessly driving towards my goal."

Open world games can have good conveyance, as long as the player is willing to engage with the tropes of the genre they're playing. i forget which RPG did it, but it was an earlier RPG. I don't remember the exact details, but it basically told you at the start of the game that there were two dungeons to tackle upon leaving the hero's hometown. A mandatory bandit fortress blocking the path to the next city headed by the Flaming Bandit, and an "optional" cave which housed a Fire Shield.

After fighting my way to the Flaming Bandit and getting my ass handed to me, I understood that while I could attempt to do the mandatory dungeon first, it was in my best interests to go to the optional cave and grab the shield before I went on with the main quest. It conditioned me quite nicely to go for optional areas first, mandatory areas second. I didn't always do it, but it was more often than not.
 
I think a slight bit of grinding isn't bad at all.It gives nice of achievement after effort.Especially when you have a clear sense of what this grinding will achieve : give you a certain skill, weapon etc


Its insane grinding like FFX end game that is really painful to do.
 
Not only do I disagree with that definition, but I find it mildly annoying, as the implication of grinding in this context is that combat in a RPG is a chore, rather than being an enjoyable part of the game loop to look forward to.
Well, it's definitely a chore, no matter how good the core system is, when it's devoid of any shadow of challenge (and I'm using the term loosely, even just in context of resource management) and it's just a repetition of the same.
For instance in Baldur's Gate you have a lot of combat that isn't strictly related to the plot, but guess what? Each fight is a one-time deal. You clean the room? Nice, you are done with that specific setup of enemies.
In Final Fantasy VII, Dragon Quest VIII, Tales of Symphonia? NOPE. You fight a particular setup of enemies and at any given moment hanging around in the same area you'll have a good chance to fight the very same setup again. And again. AND AGAIN.
And it won't become more interesting and challenging at each repetition. Quite the opposite, it's just going to feed the skinner box.
Yeah, I count that as grinding.
 
Is a way for a game to have challenge that you can bypass by idling, which is what people who don't want challenge like anyway. (Cheeky)

It's still better than crafting.
 
In bad jRPGs only, there is need to grind.

In good jRPGs, there is NEVER the need to grind, and those who feel the need to do so, are generally just bad players, or players that haven't investigated the combat system enough; so they grind until they can beat the enemy with their favorite spell and normal attack, without using debuffs and status changes.

Ummmmmmm.

You try beating Emerald and Ruby Weapon without being at level cap.

NOT. HAPPENING.
 
Well, it's definitely a chore, no matter how good the core system is, when it's devoid of any shadow of challenge (and I'm using the term loosely, even just in context of resource management) and it's just a repetition of the same.
For instance in Baldur's Gate you have a lot of combat that isn't strictly related to the plot, but guess what? Each fight is a one-time deal. You clean the room? Nice, you are done with that specific setup of enemies.
In Final Fantasy VII, Dragon Quest VIII, Tales of Symphonia? NOPE. You fight a particular setup of enemies and at any given moment hanging around in the same area you'll have a good chance to fight the very same setup again. And again. AND AGAIN.
And it won't become more interesting and challenging at each repetition. Quite the opposite, it's just going to feed the skinner box.
Yeah, I count that as grinding.

So gameplay = grinding.

Yeah, you're not really "getting" the concept of a JRPG, are you?
 
So gameplay = grinding.
If the "gameplay" consists in obsessive repetitions of the same scenarios, then absolutely.

Yeah, you're not really "getting" the concept of a JRPG, are you?
Well, maybe not.
What I can tell you is that I'm familiar with them and with other kinds of RPGs, and I definitely know which ones I prefer when it comes to designing things like exp rewards, content distribution and progress systems.
 
If the "gameplay" consists in obsessive repetitions of the same scenarios, then absolutely.


Well, maybe not.
What I can tell you is that I'm familiar with them and with other kinds of RPGs, and I definitely know which ones I prefer when it comes to designing things like exp rewards, content distribution and progress systems.

Grinding is when you reach an exp wall, the only way past is to systematically level up on random encounter monsters.

What you're talking about is just shallow combat systems, lack of enemy variety, etc.
 
The point is that you should get enough exp to neither be over or under leveled by playing the game as you normally would. It's up to the developer to convey messages as Zaku describes, but as I say the player's responsibility to pick up the signs and do the sensical thing. It's not the game's fault you don't grasp basic video game logic.

An RPG should be tuned in such a way that the player never feels they have to go out of their path to do something reluctantly. Okay so the mission is to explore a dungeon and find a key item. What you want is to naturally complete the task, so that when you're ready for the next mission, you're within the proper level interval to tackle the next mission, without having to first grind exp.
 
If the "gameplay" consists in obsessive repetitions of the same scenarios, then absolutely.


Well, maybe not.
What I can tell you is that I'm familiar with them and with other kinds of RPGs, and I definitely know which ones I prefer when it comes to designing things like exp rewards, content distribution and progress systems.

Far enough.

One of the main conceits of a classic JRPG is that it's not the challenge of one fight which is intended to bring the player down, it's the cumulative damage, strain of resources, etc, which really brings you down.

To take Baldur's Gate and other classic WRPGs for contrast, quite a lot of them allow mid-dungeon resting. If your healer runs out of spells, you can just find a cozy corner of the dungeon, rest for a while, then pop back up right as rain and continue with the encounters. Likewise, even if you can't rest, because the encounters don't reset if you find your healing and offensive options suffering because of the gauntlet you face, it's as easy as backtracking out and resting outside. No biggie.

This is why I would classify a WRPG as different, but not necessarily better than a JRPG. While the individual combats in a JRPG may not be as difficult, challenging, or final as a WRPG's combat, each one is a drain on your resources. It's partly a management of your resources: You have X amount of healing items and spells. It's up to you to "solve" each encounter so that when you encounter it, the drain on your resources is as small as possible.

Two good series which highlight this are Persona and the Tales Of series. The former, along with other Press Turn games, almost turns every random encounter into a puzzle. Good usage of elemental weaknesses and debuffs can render your enemy perfectly incapable of moving at all, but figuring out how to do it can be lethal: Just one or two bad fights in Persona 3 FES can wipe your party if you're not careful.

Tales Of is a contrast to Persona/'SMT games in that the combat is based on twitch reflexes, but it artificially limits your healing items to a small quantity compared to contemporary JRPGs and can harshly punish you if your reflexes aren't up to par. It's easy to spam your powerful moves in each fight, but you'll soon find yourself with little ability to heal or act offensively, and now you're facing the same enemies with a greater degree of danger and no safety net.

The repetition of the combat becomes part of the overall puzzle each area presents to the player, and every decision to explore more of a dungeon becomes a cost/benefit analysis, especially as you get closer to the end and a boss looms. "Is it worth the fights to see what that chest has inside, when I know I have to fight a boss and my MP is already down to half?"

You can call any repetition of grinding a gaming "fault", or you can recognize it as a legitimate, if alternative design choice on the part of the designers.

Up to you.
 
Extend game time with minimal effort / offer the perception of progress and reward for continued play

Personally I don't think grinding should exist at all. Today many games have it formalised into a levelling system and skill unlock system and other crap. However I'd argue that some games use backtracking and unlocks as a similar type of elongation mechanism that is bordering on grind. Personally though, I find this common in some Nintendo games like Zelda series, but it is done very well as not to be noticeable and accompanied by exploration and sub quests and story and many other things. Metroid Prime is one of my favourites but really immerses you in exploration, environment, creatures and lore to make this sort of stuff well... But I guess none of that is real grind
 
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