-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Why is grinding in video games a thing that exists
- Thread starter The Llama
- Start date
Robdraggoo
Member
I used to love a good grind in psx ff games. Older now, not enough time, can't stand it. The more you do it, the more powerful you get. You become a badass and you feel like you earned it.
Leafhopper
Banned
I can't personally equate grinding in MOBAs (I assume you mean levels) to the same as an RPG but I can see why one would quit because of that.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Because, sometimes.. it's fun.
Depending on the grind type I guess? And the amount of exp it needed to level up.
For some game like in this case, Etrian, Bravely, SMT. They give the feeling of ohhhh I am getting stronger is a very nice feeling. If the battle system is great fluid, it will give it more plus.
However for MMO and other game with boring battle system it becomes what everyone hate. The grinding is a drag and nightmare for the player. Not to mention if the grinding is thought as after thought where it is placed there only to make the game RPG.
For some game like in this case, Etrian, Bravely, SMT. They give the feeling of ohhhh I am getting stronger is a very nice feeling. If the battle system is great fluid, it will give it more plus.
However for MMO and other game with boring battle system it becomes what everyone hate. The grinding is a drag and nightmare for the player. Not to mention if the grinding is thought as after thought where it is placed there only to make the game RPG.
It's an easy way to gate players from making progress without requiring actual strategy in their design. I look at Chono Trigger and am depressed that more RPGs didn't follow suit in creating boss encounters that required more thought beyond "Use newer, flashier attack. You heal everyone. You occasionally buff..."
bobawesome
Member
The last time I felt like I really had to grind in a game was Persona 3 and that's because I was skipping going to Tartarus for the most part. I wonder how much of a grind it was for everyone else.
CedarFever
Neo Member
Part of the reason is tha gaming culture can vary greatly between countries.
South Korea for example has PC bangs. Unlike most North American and European gamers who play on personal PCs at home, many in Korea play socially in LAN centers. The PC bang owners are the ones that buy the machines and the software licenses and that ends up influencing how MMORPGs developed in Korea function. More grinding means more hours in the PC bang and so more revenue for the people who own them. Some of that profit is re-invested into the business to pay for hardware upgrades and new software licenses. It's simply a different business model for the industry but if you're wondering why Korean MMOs are so grindy, that's one part of the answer.
South Korea for example has PC bangs. Unlike most North American and European gamers who play on personal PCs at home, many in Korea play socially in LAN centers. The PC bang owners are the ones that buy the machines and the software licenses and that ends up influencing how MMORPGs developed in Korea function. More grinding means more hours in the PC bang and so more revenue for the people who own them. Some of that profit is re-invested into the business to pay for hardware upgrades and new software licenses. It's simply a different business model for the industry but if you're wondering why Korean MMOs are so grindy, that's one part of the answer.
As long as I get to CHOOSE when I want to fight battles and grind, I'm fine with it as long as it's done reasonably well. If I'm fighting fucking a random battle every step anyways and I'm expected to grind on top of that, fuck that. Or, if the grinding just takes so long to the point where you feel like you're never making progress, fuck that as well.
Pretty much, a good system is:
-Let me pick when I want to grind. Don't force it on me.
-There should be 'hidden' areas that reward diligence and exploring which make grinding faster.
-RNG drops suck. Put a fail safe in. If you're going to make something be a 1/500 chance to drop, make is that if you reach the denominator in kills, you get the drop anyways. So at 500 kills you'd have a 100% chance to get the drop for 1 kill.
Pretty much, a good system is:
-Let me pick when I want to grind. Don't force it on me.
-There should be 'hidden' areas that reward diligence and exploring which make grinding faster.
-RNG drops suck. Put a fail safe in. If you're going to make something be a 1/500 chance to drop, make is that if you reach the denominator in kills, you get the drop anyways. So at 500 kills you'd have a 100% chance to get the drop for 1 kill.
Sentenza
Member
Well, while I get what you are saying you are definitely wrong there.
Baldur's Gate dungeons were build around the very same principle of "long term strain". Or, as I usually call it "medium-term resource management".
What you are mentioning with rest abuse isn't a core design principle of Baldur's Gate, but one notorious flaw, that a lot of peole (myself included) even explicitly refused to abuse because it was essentially cheating.
Not only a lot of people criticized how "exceedingly forgiving" BG was with that (you were supposed to be crashed by fierce pseudo-random encounters if resting in dangerous places but in practical terms that was actually a far rarer occurrence than intended); it's also that previous games using the same ruleset are here to prove the principle (i.e. in Eye of The Beholder camping outside of safe shrines was far more dangerous and the game flat out prohibited resting in some specific areas).
Leafhopper
Banned
Can't tell you since my only experience with 3 is P3P. And I know that version is easier.
A turn based combat system being fluid to me means spending the least of amount of timing in those menus because the interesting part is the choices, the tactics, not the actual input. If it devolves to mindlessly grinding then I don't understand the appeal of the grinding itself.
I wouldn't really compare multiplayer in the same maps grinding. There is some pushback from the competition unlike when grinding in an RPG for levels where the enemies pose no threat.
chemicals
Member
Reward for time worked? It's a very basic human trait.
I have to admit it disturbs the hell out of me.. Just recently met a guy who can barely play video games who is prestige level 50 on black ops 2. I asked his friend how.. He said "the dude is disabled and doesnt work.. He just plays playstation all day long". Crazy way to live.
I have to admit it disturbs the hell out of me.. Just recently met a guy who can barely play video games who is prestige level 50 on black ops 2. I asked his friend how.. He said "the dude is disabled and doesnt work.. He just plays playstation all day long". Crazy way to live.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Pretty much this.
Any kind of grinding is just atrocious game design. It's one of the reasons I just don't go towards RPGs anymore. I don't have the time.
In MMOs, i'ts a strange relationship between playing and reward, but I suppose it's no different than the relationship of money and slot machine. Keep going in hopes of getting what you eventually want! Five hours later, there's my little slime pet.
And then I feel dirty for wasting such time.
Grinding isn't fun. Video games are supposed to be, at their heart, fun. At least to play. Let them be dreary and depressing if the story demands it, but playing should always be fun.
Yeah, pretty much. People also like to do the same shit over and over again so it's a win-win for both parties.
It is min maxing and some people love that shit. I am one of those people.
chemicals
Member
Speaking to those people who say grinding is a cheap way to extend playtime... I disagree and i will give you this reason: multiplayer games.. What feels better than completely learning every nook and cranny of a multiplayer map to give you an advantage? That's one of the joys of gaming. If you don't like to grind, just dont do it. Play everything on easy for all I care. Lol
The biggest reason that grinding exists is likely due to a lack of testing resources. This is why it's so common in early 8 bit RPGs whereas relatively big budget RPGs that came along later didn't have it.
When you have no budget for testing the team essentially develops the game, runs out of money, and ships whatever they have. It's going to have rough edges, and in RPGs that manifests itself in areas where the balance is off.
When you have no budget for testing the team essentially develops the game, runs out of money, and ships whatever they have. It's going to have rough edges, and in RPGs that manifests itself in areas where the balance is off.
killatopak
Member
I... I like grinding...
Femmeworth
Banned
I think part of it is arises out of having static bosses and choke points. Designing good RPG boss battles is kind of hard when you think about it, so many variables.
I admit I use to grind as a kid either because you had to or because I liked the games to be easy. Though for the most part that seems to be a thing of the past in my experience. Of course that depends on you definition of what is grinding exactly. I can't really think of the last game where I felt I had to grind in it. Edit: Well besides the Disgaea series, but grinding to make your characters gods is one of the major points of that series.
Personally I would like games to drop getting xp for kills altogether and instead use a system more like Bloodlines did and I believe Pillars of Eternity is, where you get XP for completing objectives. For example you would get XP when you found the item you were looking for or past through the dreaded forest. I think it would actually allow the developers to open up more gameplay possibilities while making it easier to maintain the balance between the playstyles.
Personally I would like games to drop getting xp for kills altogether and instead use a system more like Bloodlines did and I believe Pillars of Eternity is, where you get XP for completing objectives. For example you would get XP when you found the item you were looking for or past through the dreaded forest. I think it would actually allow the developers to open up more gameplay possibilities while making it easier to maintain the balance between the playstyles.
I... I like u...^_^
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I'm older now and I'm supposed to be more intelligent when it comes to figuring out RPG mechanics and strategies.
But I still enjoy grinding like a mofo.
But I still enjoy grinding like a mofo.
Yeah it happens, I did it.
Maybe I'm being pedantic because I was a high level, but it's largely materia equipped affecting how much HP you have that plays a part moreso than the actual level you're at.
Personally I HATE reaching a level cap in RPG's, my RPG boner goes limp and I feel like not playing the game or using that character anymore once max level is achieved.
alice_kiss_lara
Banned
I don't mind grinding as long as the gameplay is good
For example: diablo
For example: diablo
Reaganomics
Member
But xp requirements and leveling!
DarkHeartedKill
Member
To make the games longer, and to make up for their lack of balanced encounters. It's really irritating and the fact that it continues unquestioned most of the time perplexes me. Is it too much to ask for a game that's $60 to have content that actually lasts like 45 hours? For me to be satisfied with a game or DLC it needs to follow this: Price * .75 = minimum time spent playing so a $60 game should last me at least 45 hours, excluding grinding, of course. If it lasts longer great, I won't complain, but anything less than that and I feel cheated. Dark Souls 2 took me roughly 90 hours to beat the first time. Albeit it's mainly due to me exploring everywhere possible, I find that's much more enjoyable than just grinding away. Exploration for me is really fun.
The Spoony Hou
Member
Easy way to pad the game and fool people into thinking they are making progress.
I think it's fine in RPGs, but in any other genre it just dilutes the gameplay so much that it becomes basically a kids game.
I think it's fine in RPGs, but in any other genre it just dilutes the gameplay so much that it becomes basically a kids game.
rokkerkory
Member
lazy devs
I enjoy grinding in games where I enjoy the gameplay - where there are interesting strategic and mental challenges for me to overcome. Grinding let's me enjoy the gameplay while also constantly holding a carrot in front of me about a new ability, item or feature I'll be able to utilize against ever stronger opponents or at the minimum utilize in creative new ways. It's just a fun treadmill.
Disgaea is it's own beast, item world is randomly generated maps with random enemies, with insane level scaling every next floor, not to mention that the geocubes can fuck you over in a perfect storm whether you're level 900 or level 9000.
Plus you level up characters by levelling up your items by levelling up your stats.
You level up by levelling up your level ups. @_@
It's grinding nirvana.
Zaku already covered the point about the metagame of resource management between rest points. With that in mind, which is it?
You're saying that it's a chore when there is no challenge. I would agree with that. But if there's no challenge, either from the moment to moment combat, or from the greater resource management metagame, then why would you grind? What's the point if there's no challenge? You could feasibly just go from quest point A to quest point B all the way to the end game.
Although, in that case, I'd personally probably stop playing, since I wouldn't consider that a good RPG, of any sort. There was that time I played through Magical Starsign though. Man, that was rough. Experiencing the JRPG version of Soylent Green was kind of worth it though.
not really
The problem with these sort of systems is that you end up emphasizing player skill.
Now this is a great thing if you happen to be just around the level of skill that the devs are targeting, but if you happen to be well above or well below it then the game turns into a snore fest or frustratingly difficult respectively. Difficulty levels are ostensibly an option, but not really. A cohesive game is a well shaped experience from beginning to end. Three well designed difficulty settings would entail an enormous amount of work, which is why we don't get well designed difficulty settings. We get the game the devs designed and then easy = enemy_stats*0.5 and hard = enemy_stats*2.0. Laziness that rarely results in an enjoyable game for either side of the equation.
First reply got it.
Sure, but the cons you mentioned already exist for 80-90 percent of games today regardless of what system they use. I think that dropping the standard XP system and going with an objective based one would actually make it easier for developers to design more as you put it cohesive well shaped games. As the developer would know that by point x the player would have this amount of XP so we can build the enemies in this area around that. Of course when you throw in side quests and bonus objectives then it gets a little tougher, but a good designer would factor that in as well. Some players will be left behind by the game being too easy or too hard, but that is true with any game.
I can understand it in rpgs. The genre offers a lot of freedom but with certain content locked behind level X enemies or areas. So there has to be a way for players to get to that level. But it would be too much to force players to fight that many battles in the course of the main story.
It's become an expected part of the genre and when you really dig a particular game or it's world, you want that kind of content that demands grinding and leveling up and improving combat strategies. Side and post game content is great and often tied to grinding at least a bit.
It's become an expected part of the genre and when you really dig a particular game or it's world, you want that kind of content that demands grinding and leveling up and improving combat strategies. Side and post game content is great and often tied to grinding at least a bit.
Perfect description of Diagaea. It took the concept of grinding and made an entire game out of it. And it is awesome.
I sort of get that (I remember quite a few FRUA modules I got from BBSs were very careful not to allow resting in dungeons at all), but it's still a heavy design flaw of the WRPG as a whole, because forcing the lack of rest or waiting just isn't ever enforced all that well.
However, if it's part of the game, it's unfair to claim "Well, you're not supposed to do that" when discussing the game's actual design. If it's a weakness of the gameplay, it's a weakness of the gameplay.
Visualante2
Member
Counter act used game business. Publishers aren't interested in providing you with extra play time, they just want to keep people buying new copies.
I agree. But I want to say that Disgaea grinding is, if you don't like it, strictly a post-story matter. People wanting to go through the story don't have to grind at all if they don't want to.
I'm disappointed when I see people saying "I love T-RPG, I would have liked to play the story of Disgaea but I don't like grinding". Pro-tip : you actually don't have to.
I reached the story ending of all 4 disgaea games with the following rules :
- no replaying a level twice
- no item world access except the tutorial one
- no character world
- no capture (mostly because it's a bit broken, you can capture enemies more powerful than the final boss quite early using some tricks)
- no use of clone panels to grind a high number of enemies in a single map
- mostly no senate (recruiting is OK, and I guess reincarnation is too, but if fact, you won't level-up enough before the end of the story to make most reincarnations really useful)
(and no items too, but that's a matter of personal taste... I fear that the phones, for example, helps you to finish a level using brute force instead of careful planning)
It's perfectly doable, and I personally enjoy the games *far more* this way (once I reach the end of the story, it's grinding-fest, though, and I love it too, I ranked 500+ hours on all games except the second one). Nearly all Disgaea levels are cleverly created, like a puzzle, and you can found many interesting strategies to overcome really bad odds. Throwing, blocking, holding (enemies to prevent them to attack or allies to protect them from damages), running, using and/or changing panel effects, etc. If a map seems too difficult, there's probably an hidden trick somewhere you haven't discovered yet.
I have a huge respect for the work of the level-designers, the difficulty curve during the story is just perfect.
It been a very long time since I played a game that required any grinding to progress the story. The only grinding I've done during the 7th generation at least is to get those rare item drops to be able to craft the uber items or whatever. Like upgrading all the weapons in Nier, that was a bit of a pain.
But generally I just avoid that excessive grinding, there are so many items in Star Ocean 4 that I didn't craft or whatever, cause I just found it boring and could easily progress with the story anyway.
But generally I just avoid that excessive grinding, there are so many items in Star Ocean 4 that I didn't craft or whatever, cause I just found it boring and could easily progress with the story anyway.