• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Why is Witcher considered an RPG and not Horizon?

Topher

Gold Member
There is a reason for that.
The "better" the combat, the more the skill of the player matters compared to the stats of the character. And the more the skill of the player matters the less roleplay you get.

If you are a progamer in real life and aim like a god, then in an RPG it should not matter as the accuracy should be based on your character's skill, not yours.

And same with you being a middle aged guy who's reflex isn't what it was used to be, that you should still be able to roleplay a strong character because a well built character should be strong despite the limits of the player.

RPGs are dying because young kids with their competitive nature and infinite time would rather win by their skill. RPG elements are just used to spice up gameplay these days and you are punished for not being young and focused. All these elements related to button timing are just action game tropes that have no place in RPGs, the skill of the player should not drag down the character's abilities.

Example: in TES Morrowind, you have accuracy stats. As in, even if you swing a sword in the direction of the monster, you can still miss if your character is inaccurate. This is as it should be, your ability to swing a sword should have no link to the character's actual swordmanship.

Action gamers hate this of course. They want to hit what they aimed at. And since action gamers are the majority, RPG games die.

I think this is a matter of RPGs evolving rather than dying. Classic RPGs used stats of characters because the gameplay mechanics had not matured enough. The gameplay was literally a matter of pointing to the enemy you wanted to attack and then let the algorithm in the background do the rest. As RPGs became more immersive the skill of the player worked in conjunction with the stats of the player. My ability to aim my bow in Skyrim isn't the only thing going on. To be more effective, the traits of my character must grow. So the transference of "skill" from character to player, imo, is a natural evolution of gameplay in RPGs. That isn't to say it is better, but I think a lot of people simply like the older mechanics and have purist outlook when it comes to RPGs. That's fine too. Personally, I think RPGs have broadened quite a bit and that is why games like Horizon are called "action adventure RPGs" as a result.
 
Last edited:

Allandor

Member
...
RPG just means your are playing a role.

That role can be pre-defined, with linear story, without any player decision affecting it.

That is where most games RPGs go.
if you take this as a base, than any game with a character you control is an RPG ;) ... even Fifa games
 
Last edited:

Swift_Star

Gold Member
This discussion is moving nowhere. The only thing I have to say about this topic is that when a game is an RPG, we know it is, there's no really need to explain it. This discussion is purely semantics anyway.
 

Sygma

Member
So, I’ve played a lot of rpgs in my life, western, japanese, Crpg’s, tactical rpgs….etc it seemed like for a long time if it wasn’t turn based it just wasn’t an rpg. Now it’s like every game is rpg-lite, even god of war could really be considered an RPG if you wanted.

Now witcher 3, great game, epic sprawling adventure. But what really makes it an RPG? You have a set character, mostly a set story with some choices here and there, (the big choices don’t come until the last 5 hours of the game), you get your magic, your melee, your gear…etc almost the same as Horizon. Both games almost follow the same gameplay loop. Main quest, side quest, hunts, level up, gear up, rinse and repeat.

I bring this up because i saw a post of Parris xbox games refer to it as an rpg and people lose their minds.






It’s almost the same level of stat customization between games. I almost feel like the fact that horizon has better combat and enemies than the witcher is what keeps people from wanting to call it an rpg. I also never hear anyone say, “witcher isn’t really an rpg is an action rpg or adventure game with lite rpg mechanics”, like they do the former.

Assassins Creed Valhalla won best RPG at PCGamer in 2020. Is that an rpg?

Tautological nonsense mostly


Of course Horizon is an action rpg, same for Witcher as a series (ie the 3 games), because they allow players to play a role in a story where choices they make have consequences while leveling up their attributes directly or indirectly. Action rpg is used here because its not the classic turn by turn combat with dice rolls in order to calculate what has to be.

Zelda also is an action rpg.
 
Last edited:
I honestly don’t consider most these action RPG’s true RPG’s, but action games with some RPG elements. Couldn’t something like Kena or Star Wars: Fallen Order basically be an RPG as well?
 
Last edited:

Azurro

Gold Member
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.

I remember these purist arguments of what is an RPG. By definition, anything that isn't played with pen and paper can't be an RPG, because you can't just magically add assets and quests to a game running on a computer. So either no RPGs exist, or we have to relax the definition.
 

Sygma

Member
And The Witcher is deep there and is also deeper than most real RPGs when it comes to how your choices matter, so even though you don’t create you own Geralt and starter class/race etc it’s still very close to be a proper RPG.

The Witcher as a serie absolutely doesn't hold a candle to the top tier list of WRPGs in any way shape or form, lets be perfectly honest on that. Fallout 1 alone utterly demolishes the three games combined front left right and center
 

Soodanim

Member
JRPG just means RPGs made by Japanese developers… so yes Souls is a JRPG.
It just shows the strange nature of the names themselves.

I think most people would agree that JRPGs are party based games based around turn based menu-controlled combat, with stats dictated by both level and gear. Final Fantasy 7 is a typical example.

Dark Souls isn’t that, so it’s not a JRPG or maybe even an RPG even though it has RPG elements (perhaps more than some more ‘obvious’ RPGs that aren’t so skill-based) and made by a Japanese developer.

But then what is an RPG? A game where you play a role? 99% of games have you assume the role of someone. By name alone, it’s an almost useless term.

Obviously we know that the term is derived from the tabletop games and things change over time, getting lost in translation and whatnot. But we either scrap the entire system and come up with new names, or we keep them and people stop moaning about what is or isn’t a “real” RPG.
 
It's down to branding at this point. Whatever they want to market themselves as. So many games have RPG elements that a lot of genres have blended and become less meaningful.

Horizon is a lot more of an RPG than I first expected. Crafting, level up, gear, quests. If they want to be known as an action RPG they could be. But the marketing doesn't really make that clear at all.

FYI, Dark Souls is a JRPG as well.
 
Last edited:

Edgelord79

Gold Member
I think under the loose definition of RPG in today's gaming market, it should be considered an RPG.

I does lean heavily more to adventure/action though.
 
I think this is a matter of RPGs evolving rather than dying. Classic RPGs used stats of characters because the gameplay mechanics had not matured enough. The gameplay was literally a matter of pointing to the enemy you wanted to attack and then let the algorithm in the background do the rest. As RPGs became more immersive the skill of the player worked in conjunction with the stats of the player. My ability to aim my bow in Skyrim isn't the only thing going on. To be more effective, the traits of my character must grow. So the transference of "skill" from character to player, imo, is a natural evolution of gameplay in RPGs. That isn't to say it is better, but I think a lot of people simply like the older mechanics and have purist outlook when it comes to RPGs. That's fine too. Personally, I think RPGs have broadened quite a bit and that is why games like Horizon are called "action adventure RPGs" as a result.
So you are saying the player's skill should be the determining factor? Then why even have roleplay? Just have Call of Duty, where there is no stat growth and you just increase difficulty.

I am not being purist, I play RPGs to not be myself. Your view of wanting "a challenge" is why we have useless levels and monsters scaling with the player. The idea being the RPG elements are just a smokescreen and that the levels are not even really there.

You used to be able to control your game experience in RPGs, now they are just action games. Levels that aren't levels, stats that aren't stats, and you are rewarded for having an easier game if you keep your character level as low as possible. You want to play action game? Then go play action games. Stop killing the RPG games that RPG players loved by stealing their IPs.
 
But then what is an RPG? A game where you play a role? 99% of games have you assume the role of someone. By name alone, it’s an almost useless term.
I just told you; RPG is where the way the game character is built determines how well the character plays, and not relating to the reflex or accuracy of the player.

The player and the character need to be separated, or you just get Call of Duty.

Even Bethesda know this, as bad as they were recently. And that was why Fallout 3 had the VATS targeting option. But then they weakened the RPG further in Fallout 4 by making VATS no longer fully stop time.

I get it, the battle is over. RPG is now just a meaningless label used by Adventure gamers who like real time combat. You saying it doesn't matter only because you never liked RPGs. You just used to play RPGs because you didn't have the choice to play action games due to tech limitations.

You now have killed RPG games and wear its skin like a hat. Good on you.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko85

Member
Horizon is booooooring compared to witcher, i quit it half way through thats why.

If the witcher is considered to have RPG element to it then 1st Horizon is very shallow RPG.

Lol Horizon has way better combat than Witcher 3. So depends on what you mean by boring.

I couldnt carry on playing Witcher 3 after a few hours because the combat was not enjoyable.

Saying all this Horizon is a shallow rpg if it is an rpg at all
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
The Witcher as a serie absolutely doesn't hold a candle to the top tier list of WRPGs in any way shape or form, lets be perfectly honest on that. Fallout 1 alone utterly demolishes the three games combined front left right and center
In general I agree, there isn’t really any role playing to talk about, the role is already set, but I think it’s unfair to call it an action adventure, it’s somewhere in between the genres. ARPG perhaps? The story choices is what makes it special anyhow. I haven’t actually finished it yet but what I played gave me more story cross roads than most other games. I have no idea if the changes carries all the way til the end though.
 

Topher

Gold Member
So you are saying the player's skill should be the determining factor? Then why even have roleplay? Just have Call of Duty, where there is no stat growth and you just increase difficulty.

I didn't say it should be the "determining factor". I said player skill has become a factor. Character stats and player skill both have a part to play.

I am not being purist, I play RPGs to not be myself. Your view of wanting "a challenge" is why we have useless levels and monsters scaling with the player. The idea being the RPG elements are just a smokescreen and that the levels are not even really there.

Useless levels is a matter of bad game design. Monsters scaling is developer choice. Nothing I've said mandates these things as a result. You can have games that blend skill and character traits along with good levels and non-scaling monsters.

You used to be able to control your game experience in RPGs, now they are just action games. Levels that aren't levels, stats that aren't stats, and you are rewarded for having an easier game if you keep your character level as low as possible. You want to play action game? Then go play action games. Stop killing the RPG games that RPG players loved by stealing their IPs.

Neither Horizon or Witcher are "stolen IPs". You still have more classic RPG IPs on the market such as Divinity, Wasteland, Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, etc.
 

Soodanim

Member
I get it, the battle is over. RPG is now just a meaningless label used by Adventure gamers who like real time combat. You saying it doesn't matter only because you never liked RPGs. You just used to play RPGs because you didn't have the choice to play action games due to tech limitations.

You now have killed RPG games and wear its skin like a hat. Good on you.
😭
I can’t burn all of my RPGs because some are digital, but now I know I don’t like them can you help me figure out what to do with them?
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I would agree with that. What is best open RPG in your opinion?
God knows, i haven't played that many RPGs, but it definitely isn't The Witcher 3 since it can barely be called an RPG.

From the ones i played, Fallout NV, Divinity OS 2, or even Cyberpunk 2077 are not only better RPGs but better games altogether.
 
I would agree with that. What is best open RPG in your opinion?
Morrowind. I usually go back to the source when I pick bests. That was the game that made it a new thing, and at the time it felt fresh and exciting. Everyone's basically been copying the same thing for the last 15 years.

All you've gotten since then is more polish, better combat. But all the rest is literally the same thing.
 
I honestly don’t consider most these action RPG’s true RPG’s, but action games with some RPG elements. Couldn’t something like Kena or Star Wars: Fallen Order basically be an RPG as well?

Yeah, i think every game now a days has to have some sort of progression system and they all use teh typical rpg leveling system that were in turn based games only back in the day, even stuff like nba2k and CoD use leveling systems and gear and stats.

There is a thing these days where if you call something like ff7 and witcher an rpg no one will flinch, even though they are entirely different games that have almost nothing in common. Then you throw in a game like Horizon or Zelda and people stop dead in their tracks if you ever try to call them rpgs.

I dont get it lol
 
Last edited:

bbeach123

Member
If Horizon have like 10cm deep RPG element .
Then Witcher 3 is at least 30cm
God of war 20cm
Assassin's creed Odyssey 50cm

I quit at the first 5 hours into Horizon because I was disappointed with the (boring)gears stats and (boring)skill tree .
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
Because weebs and hardcore WRPG fans would never taint the name of RPGs by accepting Horizon into the club, and Sony stans would never want their precious western cinematic console exclusives to be conflated with RPGs if they’re not made in Japan.

Or, less cynically, because typical RPG elements don’t make a game that’s essentially action a full-blown RPG.
 

Rykan

Member
Who the hell is Parris?
An Influencer who is frequently invited to host Microsoft events. He's not actually working for MS so he has now labeled Horizon as the next best RPG to still seem unbiased. Which he, ofcourse, is not.

Zelda also is an action rpg.
No it isn't. None of its mechanics are based on RPG mechanics.
 
Last edited:

THEAP99

reposts tweets from kids about console wars
Because Horizon has good gameplay/combat. Most WRPGs are known for bad combat
Dude, I have no idea why people like RPGs so much. Like the gameplay in fallout is soooooo dogshit and janky. What is so fun about going through hours of static dialogue? I'm glad that horizon at least has great combat even if the open world formula sucks and written is cliche
 

kyussman

Member
The term rpg is so broad these days i kind of have my own rules about them.......if there are lots of dialogue options,then it's an rpg,lol.
 

KyoZz

Gold Member
Neither are true RPGs - those almost don't exist in video games anymore. Witcher is closer, though. A true RPG *must* allow the player to affect the narrative.
mood GIF


I'm so tired of reading "RPG" for games like AssCreed, Witcher etc... Those are action/adventure games.
 

RoyBatty

Member
Horizon RPG is extremely simple, is more an action/adventure game; Witcher isn't a great RPG at all but is much more complex than HZD.
 

Amiga

Member
Genres have been blending for a long time. Castlevania SotN didn't just copy Metroid. It also added a loot and progression system.
FF games(and most popular JRPGs) are RPG-lite. they have progression but you can't define the character and the story is liner. Monster Hunter is more of an actual RPG than FF,DQ and Zelda.

Because Horizon has good gameplay/combat. Most WRPGs are known for bad combat
Agreed.

I'd even got as far as to say from Witcher 1-3 the series slowly become less and less of an RPG.

@James Sawyer Ford lol fucking yessssssss! Thats my favorite one. It MUST play like shit to be an RPG, no fun must be had with the combat at all. We need to put that as some bullet point on the box. Be like "combat is weak as it should be, cumbersome, laggy, bad animations...just as an RPG is made to be"

Dark Souls, Bloodborn, Nioh are JRPGs. We keep using the term "souls" so often that few people realize it now.
 

Sygma

Member
I would agree with that. What is best open RPG in your opinion?

Its a tough one seriously, but yeah its either Gothic 2, Daggerfall or Morrowind. Even tho Daggerfall is a procedurally generated medieval times simulator that happens to be a rpg
 

IFireflyl

Gold Member
The problem is that video game genres aren't clearly defined. One person says the definition of RPG is X, and another person says it is Y. Even if people do agree on a definition, that definition is normally open to interpretation, so those people still disagree on what games fall into the category. Language is hard.
 

Sygma

Member
I didn't say it should be the "determining factor". I said player skill has become a factor. Character stats and player skill both have a part to play.

Heh, since when ? the most impactful rpgs always have been those literally not even having combat as a mandatory system. Planescape Torment, Fallout, and so on and so forth all have that going. In fact there's no need for combat at all to have good rpgs, proof being Disco Elysium's success as of late
 
Top Bottom