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[Resident_UA]

Ok now I am sure that most of you that are saying about Soviet war crimes must not be more that 16 years old, history re revisionists at full force. My God what the new history books are writing...

Political anti-comminist propaganda, not history gentlemen.

You really have no clue what people are talking about here. Nobody is defending Germany or the US. The point is that Stalin is responsible for as many deaths as Hitler. Just imagine that Nazis had 70 years to cover up the attrocities that they have committed...

Also, How can you be surprised that the new books are telling a different story?!!! Soviet Union fell apart and the truth started to come out... Anyway, I really don'n understand why you feel so strongly about this. It'n not like people are accusing Greece of something. Also I don't understand how it is possible to be so misinformed...

 

[WolvenOne]

A Russian furry I know was actually complaining about this earlier this week.

Yes, there are Russian curries, no he wasnt a bear.

Anyhow, his assessment was that the game itself was fine mechanically, but if they were going to sell it in Russia than they shouldn't have made the USSR playable. They're used to the USSR being the bad guys, and don't mind playing as Americans or Brits. However, most developers outside of Russia don't really know how to write Russian characters well, so attempts to write Russian characters in Videogames usually comes across as goofy, mocking, or even downright insulting.

He's probably right of course. It might shorten the games, but I can see how that would look to them.

 

[Carcetti]

Russians also hate any history writing that doesn't portray WW2 Russia as a heroic nation of heroic soldiers of righteousness. They have difficulty admitting that they actually might have attacked their neighbors like the Baltics and Finland, and their history books are written to reflect this. So CoH2 is probably more historically accurate than a lot of their textbooks...

 

[Resident_UA]

Today's Russia has nothing to do with Soviet Union, in fact they are the complete opposite.

WHAT?!!!!!!!?!! HAVE YOU WATCHED RUSSIAN NEWS?!! Do you even know what you are talking about? In fact it's still a FEDERATION. There various groups that want independence from Russia. Did you hear about Chechen war!? I don'n even know anymore... It's scary to think that you think that you are informed...

 

[Sibylus]

http://www.wien.gv.at/english/history/overview/nazi.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_National_Socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss

Which involved troops crossing the border, mass arrests, Nazi officials presiding over a later vote, tampering with the voting base (including throwing out hundreds of thousands of legal voters), and Hitler turning the screws on Austrian leadership in person.

Yes, there was a strong Nazi movement in the country, but it wasn't a given that the country was going to vote itself into Germany (if it was, Nazi Germany simply would have allowed the Austrian-led plebescite to proceed, as with what happened to the Saar). Hitler and company decided they weren't going to chance it, and so open threats and coercion were the order of the day.

But clearly Austria was ecstatic. Yes? Oh, wait, nope. You're still an idiot with questionable sympathies. For all the accusations you've slung at others, you haven't talked about your own biases in the slightest.

 

[DutchNeon]

Russians also hate any history writing that doesn't portray WW2 Russia as a heroic nation of heroic soldiers of righteousness. They have difficulty admitting that they actually might have attacked their neighbors like the Baltics and Finland, and their history books are written to reflect this. So CoH2 is probably more historically accurate than a lot of their textbooks...

Been like this for every major country involved in WWII (and other major wars) Wanting to forget the bad things they did and praising the good things they did. Especially in books aimed at young people that still need to learn (primary/secondary school).

 

[Kinyou]

Russians also hate any history writing that doesn't portray WW2 Russia as a heroic nation of heroic soldiers of righteousness. They have difficulty admitting that they actually might have attacked their neighbors like the Baltics and Finland, and their history books are written to reflect this. So CoH2 is probably more historically accurate than a lot of their textbooks...

The winners do tend to to swipe their own crimes under the carpet. I remember that some Russian historians are also claiming that there were never any mass rapes in Germany.

It's kind of hard to find out the truth since everyone seems to have their own biases going on.

 

[Jack Cayman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss

Which involved troops crossing the border, mass arrests, Nazi officials presiding over a later vote, tampering with the voting base (including throwing out hundreds of thousands of legal voters), and Hitler turning the screws on Austrian leadership in person.

Yes, there was a strong Nazi movement in the country, but it wasn't a given that the country was going to vote itself into Germany (if it was, Nazi Germany simply would have allowed the Austrian-led plebescite to proceed, as with what happened to the Saar). Hitler and company decided they weren't going to chance it, and so open threats and coercion were the order of the day.

But clearly Austria was ecstatic. Yes? Oh, wait, nope. You're still an idiot with questionable sympathies. For all the accusations you've slung at others, you haven't talked about your own biases in the slightest.

Which part of the majority of the people were against the Nazis did you not understand, BUT they did not make a move(by that mean defend themselves by force) when the German Nazis and the Austria Government which was politically Nazis were allied and absorbed by them.

In my country when the Italian ambassador came to our fascist Dictator Metaxas in 28 October in 1940 at the time the people were already preparing for war against the fascists. But you do not understand my point of view because you do not have enough evidence I understand you have already make up your mind because that's the way they taught you the "facts". My country lost in analogy 4.5% of the population at the time to resist fascism and Austria join Germany with a simple piece of paper.

So spare me the the lecture. Austria fought with the Germans in the war side by side, they were people in Austria that were against A LOT of people, I am not pass judgement to them why they force to join Hilter rather than why they did not resist more. Also their government were pro fascists. Pure Fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Austria

Austria's first attempt at republican governance, after the fall of the monarchy, was severely hampered by the crippling economic costs of war reparations required by the victorious Allies. Austria's First Republic (1918–1938) made some pioneering reforms in the 1920s, particularly in Vienna, that became the foundations for the social welfare states of post World War II Europe. However it gradually degenerated into a fascist dictatorship between 1933-1934 under Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, who was assassinated by Nazis in 1934. The First Republic ended with German invasion and annexation in 1938. Following the defeat of Germany in 1945 Austria resumed its republican government.

I am not denying that Austria was forced to hand over their autonomy as a country but they didn't resist as well if you understand what am I trying to say.

WHAT?!!!!!!!?!! HAVE YOU WATCHED RUSSIAN NEWS?!! Do you even know what you are talking about? In fact it's still a FEDERATION. There various groups that want independence from Russia. Did you hear about Chechen war!? I don'n even know anymore... It's scary to think that you think that you are informed...

Soviet Union was a socialistic country not a capitalistic warmongers ruled by organized crime overlords and multinational companies that are trying to gain market share in the country.

Soviet Union their economy was based on peace not war. Read the economic reports of the Soviet Union development during the "great depression" and then compare them to the rest of the big countries during 1925 until 1939 and you will understand how World World 2 started.

The winners do tend to to swipe their own crimes under the carpet.

.

 

[Jack Cayman]

double post sorry!!

 

[Sibylus]

Which part of the majority of the people were against the Nazis did you not understand, BUT they did not make a move(by that mean defend themselves by force) when the German Nazis and the Austria Government which was politically Nazis were allied and absorbed by them.

In my country when the Italian ambassador came to our fascist Dictator Metaxas in 28 October in 1940 at the time the people were already preparing for war against the fascists. But you do not understand my point of view because you do not have enough evidence I understand you have already make up your mind because that's the way they taught you the "facts". My country lost in analogy 4.5% of the population at the time to resist fascism and Austria join Germany with a simple piece of paper.

So spare me the the lecture. Austria fought with the Germans in the war side by side, they were people in Austria that were against A LOT of people, I am not pass judgement to them why they force to join Hilter rather than why they did not resist more. Also their government were pro fascists. Pure Fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Austria

I am not denying that Austria was forced to hand over their autonomy as a country but they didn't resist as well if you understand what am I trying to say.

To be sure they didn't resist like many other European states, but would you expect them to? They were fraternal peoples (much like one might consider Canada and the US today), militarily outgunned, diplomatically helpless... do you fault them for giving up? I can't honestly say I do, were that my situation, I'd be fleeing the territory and resisting where aid could be realistically felt (ie france, belgium, poland, on the periphery of Nazi domination and not in its heartlands).

And who is the "they" that taught me? Don't vaguely allude to shadowy, conspiratorial overmasters and expect me to accept these assertions gullibly. Name them. Be specific. I'll cease the lecture when you show you can impart more than a vintage Soviet propagandist's spiel. Do you read me? I need more than your goose step to convince me.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

What the hell is wrong with CoH's performance.
I5 2500k
Gtx 670
Horrendous frame rate.

 

[Remmy2112]

Jack, you ignore any opinion or source posted that doesn't conform to your beliefs and it seems primarily use wikipedia as your sources. While wikipedia is a good place to start research there is a good reason why almost every (US) college does not allow people to cite it as a source for papers. You also attempt to snidely disregard any poster with a opinion contrary to yours by calling them prejudiced and proclaiming that they are not willing to "see both sides" of the argument merely because they disagree.

*ksssshhhh* Kettle, this is Pot, over. *kssshhhh* Go ahead Pot, over. *kssshhhh* You're black, over.

 

[Jack Cayman]

To be sure they didn't resist like many other European states, but would you expect them to? They were fraternal peoples (much like one might consider Canada and the US today), militarily outgunned, diplomatically helpless... do you fault them for giving up? I can't honestly say I do, were that my situation, I'd be fleeing the territory and resisting where aid could be realistically felt (ie france, belgium, poland, on the periphery of Nazi domination and not in its heartlands).

Really now any free man has a choice, my country in 1940 was devastated by continuous wars(balkan wars, WW1) and we still resisted. No, in my opinion they were not acting according to the rest of the europian countries. But who am I to judge, just saying what I would do if I was in the same situation.

And who is the "they" that taught me? Don't vaguely allude to shadowy, conspiratorial overmasters and expect me to accept these assertions gullibly. Name them. Be specific. I'll cease the lecture when you show you can impart more than a vintage Soviet propagandist's spiel. Do you read me? I need more than your goose step to convince me.

Relax, sorry if you did not understand what I was trying to say. As "they" I was referring to your educational system, as mine the history books were filled with the "point of view" of the author that my country government allowed to pass to the younger generation, but as I said is my hobby to read history from all over the world particularly the cold war era, also I study the politic view of each source to have a more spherical opinion on the matter. I am not trying to prove you wrong we just debating with history facts. I must say I am enjoying myself, sorry if my views are coming the wrong way.

Jack, you ignore any opinion or source posted that doesn't conform to your beliefs and it seems primarily use wikipedia as your sources. While wikipedia is a good place to start research there is a good reason why almost every (US) college does not allow people to cite it as a source for papers. You also attempt to snidely disregard any poster with a opinion contrary to yours by calling them prejudiced and proclaiming that they are not willing to "see both sides" of the argument merely because they disagree.

*ksssshhhh* Kettle, this is Pot, over. *kssshhhh* Go ahead Pot, over. *kssshhhh* You're black, over.

I agree with you about wikipedia and historical facts I only quote the ones that I already know that are true as of numbers and some descriptions. I could point you to more sources but the language barrier would be big to translate some other stuff from French and Greek, so bare with me here ok, I am trying to explain myself in a very difficult subject in foreign manner.

 

[koryuken]

The USSR was more responsible for the defeat of the Nazis than any other nation. The western front was simply smaller and less intensely fought than the war in the eastern front, and if that force was arrayed solely against the allies in the western front they would have been defeated.

You can praise the armed forces of the USSR and still rightfully damn Stalin's atrocities.

Compared to how much glorification we heap on the armed forces on the Western front I don't think it's unreasonable to be annoyed at how little recognition the soldiers of the USSR receive for their role. Most of us would probably be really annoyed if we sat through a game that seemed determined to make the Western allies look bad.

Well said.

 

[vazel]

It's weird how WW2 always brings out all the fervent armchair historians. I don't think any other era in history has such an extreme effect on people.

 

[CTLance]

The guy in the video raises a valid point, namely that the Russians as they are depicted appear to be a particularly bad caricature of all the bad traits of all WW2 Russian Soldiers and Politicians. Which is rather weird, given the title and claims by relic (from what I understand).

However, the way he communicates this in his video is completely unprofessional, overly emotional, very slanted - and frankly, rather concerning.

This makes rational discussion highly unlikely and diminishes the validity of issues he wishes to highlight. It's a lose-lose scenario.

I really like Relic. They do make good games. I wish they had found a way to not paint with such broad strokes, though. The simplistic cold war worldview is hard to get rid of, I guess.

OBsobstory: My father's family lived in Ústí nad Labem back in the days.
I will forever be grateful for the unnamed Russian soldiers that (by her own admission) fired in the air instead of at my aunt as she carried my father to the German side of the border. A few of them fired in earnest, but most other shots went wide when they shouldn't have.
That will not undo the fact that she had to flee in the first place, namely to escape the very real threat of rape and death from the Russians, but it shows that a two-bit worldview is... well... stupid.

 

[vazel]

OBsobstory: My father's family lived in Ústí nad Labem back in the days.
I will forever be grateful for the unnamed Russian soldiers that (by her own admission) fired in the air instead of at my aunt as she carried my father to the German side of the border. A few of them fired in earnest, but most other shots went wide when they shouldn't have.
That will not undo the fact that she had to flee in the first place, namely to escape the very real threat of rape and death from the Russians, but it shows that a two-bit worldview is... well... stupid.

Most soldiers fired to miss in WW2. Most deaths were from artillery. Just goes to show that even in a brutal war many soldiers can't just turn off their humanity.

 

[Sibylus]

Really now any free man has a choice, my country in 1940 was devastated by continuous wars(balkan wars, WW1) and we still resisted. No, in my opinion they were not acting according to the rest of the europian countries. But who am I to judge, just saying what I would do if I was in the same situation.

Of course people have choices, but what I'm pointing out is that not all European nations had equally good options for resistance. The ones I mentioned (and yours too) had access to the sea, which meant quite a bit for resistance movements that relied upon coordination with outside forces and resources. But to be clear: I am in no way defending those who jumped into aiding and assisting Nazi atrocity, merely those made impotent and without hope after their country ceased to exist, or those who served under arms with honor for their community.

Relax, sorry if you did not understand what I was trying to say. As "they" I was referring to your educational system, as mine the history books were filled with the "point of view" of the author that my country government allowed to pass to the younger generation, but as I said is my hobby to read history from all over the world particularly the cold war era, also I study the politic view of each source to have a more spherical opinion on the matter. I am not trying to prove you wrong we just debating with history facts. I must say I am enjoying myself, sorry if my views are coming the wrong way.

Then relax in turn, because my education was excellent: it didn't privilege white above black, English above French, or the enemy over native. It was anything but ideological reinforcement, it would be more accurate to say that it sought out differences constantly and taught methods of discernment.

To be blunt: I don't understand your point of view because I struggle to parse your English in most of your posts, and we seem to be reading in native-language sources that are unfamiliar to the other (for my part, one prominent example is William Shirer's account of the history of the Third Reich, Howard Zinn's A People's History, etc). So it comes as little surprise that we're effectively talking past each other.

 

[Jack Cayman]

Of course people have choices, but what I'm pointing out is that not all European nations had equally good options for resistance. The ones I mentioned (and yours too) had access to the sea, which meant quite a bit for resistance movements that relied upon coordination with outside forces and resources. But to be clear: I am in no way defending those who jumped into aiding and assisting Nazi atrocity, merely those made impotent and without hope after their country ceased to exist, or those who served under arms with honor for their community.


Then relax in turn, because my education was excellent: it didn't privilege white above black, English above French, or the enemy over native. It was anything but ideological reinforcement, it would be more accurate to say that it sought out differences constantly and taught methods of discernment.

To be blunt: I don't understand your point of view because I struggle to parse your English in most of your posts, and we seem to be reading in native-language sources that are unfamiliar to the other (for my part, one prominent example is William Shirer's account of the history of the Third Reich, Howard Zinn's A People's History, etc). So it comes as little surprise that we're effectively talking past each other.

No problem mate if you cannot understand my English there is no point to continue our conversation, thank you for your time and thanks for the next history book that I am going to read.

Just a question is this book used as an educational material in your country? Only to understand the mentality because the author is American.

 

[Sibylus]

Neither are used as educational materials in Canada, I sought 'em out on my own and read them. As far as I know Zinn's work is read in educational settings in America, though I wouldn't know how widely.

Shirer for the most part is an excellent read, though I have to note he had his own private prejudices against gay people that made for a few idiotic conclusions in places (he was contemporaneous with the events described, so arguably he held a pretty standard prejudice for the times).

 

[Kimppis]

It's weird how WW2 always brings out all the fervent armchair historians. I don't think any other era in history has such an extreme effect on people.

Well it happened quite recently and it's the bloodiest war in history, so not surprising really.

Was the USSR's fight glorious or not? Hell, how do you even define glorious? Anyway, the fact is that the people of the Soviet Union fought for their survival during WWII. What would have happened if the Germans would have won? Even more horrible things that the Soviets ever did under Stalin. Where are the Germans now? Over 80m of them living just fine in Germany. Where would the Russians be now, after German victory? In German slavery, at best.

Not trying to defend Stalin's Russia, but that's how it is. Because the thing is, that nazism was all about racism, socialism wasn't racist at all. Racism was the biggest reason Hitler ever even invaded the Soviet Union. Not saying that there wasn't any racist tendencies under Stalin, and not trying to defend socialism (or bash fascism) either, but that was the ideological situation.

And there was no way their fight was glorious, because they weren't American (or British, or whatever...)? Yeah, right... History isn't black and white, ever, that's for sure.

 

[Tenrius]

As a Russian person, the only thing I find offensive and inaccurate here is the actual video. And maybe the thread title, too.

The post by King Beyond the wall does a good job of dealing with factual inconsistencies in this poor excuse of a criticism. I was particularly surprised by their dismissal of "General Winter", which is a well-known and well-established term I actually remember hearing quite a lot during my high school years.

Even the form they put their inaccurate criticism into is offensive, all those horrible jokes and whatnot. I never heard about this channel before, by the way, but they seem to be doing humorous film reviews, which actually explains a lot.

 

[Resident_UA]

Soviet Union was a socialistic country not a capitalistic warmongers ruled by organized crime overlords and multinational companies that are trying to gain market share in the country.

Soviet Union their economy was based on peace not war. Read the economic reports of the Soviet Union development during the "great depression" and then compare them to the rest of the big countries during 1925 until 1939 and you will understand how World World 2 started.



.

Look, you are really misinformed. My parents and grandparents grew up in Soviet Union. They would find this statement hilarious. Just read up a bit more. Or just think logically. If their economy was based on peace not war then why did they have the largest number of tanks before the war? Or why did they trade with Germany? Even the most hardcore communists in Russia would probably laugh at you. Please read a bit more about the war. Your statements are offensive to me. Do you even realize that Russian language was not even native language to many people that lived in Soviet Union?!

 

[Resident_UA]

No problem mate if you cannot understand my English there is no point to continue our conversation, thank you for your time and thanks for the next history book that I am going to read.

Just a question is this book used as an educational material in your country? Only to understand the mentality because the author is American.

Who cares who the author is at this point?!!! Are you still living in 1930s? Many of the books written about Stalin's evil regime are by Russians. In fact America is probably covering up Soviet Union more than anybody else. Remember Stalin was on ally side.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The USSR was more responsible for the defeat of the Nazis than any other nation. The western front was simply smaller and less intensely fought than the war in the eastern front, and if that force was arrayed solely against the allies in the western front they would have been defeated.

You can praise the armed forces of the USSR and still rightfully damn Stalin's atrocities.

Compared to how much glorification we heap on the armed forces on the Western front I don't think it's unreasonable to be annoyed at how little recognition the soldiers of the USSR receive for their role. Most of us would probably be really annoyed if we sat through a game that seemed determined to make the Western allies look bad.

Hold on, you're telling me that countries tend to glorify their own military accomplishments. Mind = blown.

Seriously. Over in Russia, the Eastern Front is a big deal, and the Western Front is played down, if not ignored completely. You don't see Americans getting all pissy because Russians don't sing enough praise to the Western Front.

 

[ciridesu]

He kind of has a point with the inconsistency between the first and second iterations; ala Dresden wasn't portrayed in the manner it's supposed to: a hideous act

And I guess it takes a toll on many, on how each game continues to portray Russians the same way as always: cruel, cowardly and poor; even losers even though they're the major reason for the Nazis' defeat

NOTE: of course this is two extremes against each other and I am still of the belief that Stalin was vile and arguably worse than Hitler.

 

[demolitio]

I didn't use the age card to legitimise my point, I just say it because 30 years before history books where more objective examining both points of view and it was up to the reader to criticise who was right or wrong with their own political judgement.

Excuse me for asking but how are you deducting that war is absent from politics? That is fundamentally wrong. How you think wars start in the first place?

Excuse me for restating "WAR CRIMES" as in the events in history. Last time I checked, I never said war wasn't political, but to act like all recorded events are somehow only due to our hatred of communism (horrible assumption but that's been par for the course lately) is the part that's fundamentally wrong and nothing more than another attempt to discredit everyone else just like the age card. The accounts themselves will be revised for political reasons in different cases like Japan, but the events themselves are separate from politics. They don't become bulletpoints in history because of politics, they don't get taught just because you hate one side, etc. It's the generations that follow that try to hide their own nation's guilt through politics which doesn't change the original reporting and what people outside of those countries know. Learning history isn't just because of stupid politics and we weren't taught about any events during WWII just because it was the Cold War. Russia being communist had NOTHING to do with the events that took place because we learned about crimes from all sorts of countries and governments.

War crimes happened on large scales on both sides and you sure sound just like some of the Japanese politicians who look to revise history books to avoid all wrong-doings as if they can be avoided when they're well documented. No nation is exempt from revising history but most aren't delusional when it comes to cold hard facts of WWII. Plenty of events have been revised for various reasons throughout human existence, but let's not act like people are jumping on the bandwagon just because of what followed WWII and their views on communism.

It's like the people that deny the Holocaust ever happened for their own personal reasons. It never makes sense yet they do it anyway because their emotions cloud their judgement. The Russian stereotypes in games are old, but I don't see that changing too much as long as the industry is afraid to make China out to be a possible foe. They go with what was well established that won't offend too many people or hurt them in different markets which is a shame, but it's a reality. I don't like how they're portrayed but I also don't like the assumption that people harp on WAR CRIMES due to their hatred of the country or their politics instead of actual interest in history or facts. To make everyone out to be anti-Russia just because of that and then to act like that trumps history is a stretch.

Stalin and Hitler were both monsters. No revisionist history there.

Hold on, you're telling me that countries tend to glorify their own military accomplishments. Mind = blown.

Seriously. Over in Russia, the Eastern Front is a big deal, and the Western Front is played down, if not ignored completely. You don't see Americans getting all pissy because Russians don't sing enough praise to the Western Front.

I love that too. Each person's own pride blinds them to the real truth that it was a team effort. The people that say Russia won the war by themselves conveniently forget just how well supplied their military was thanks to the West that they discredit. You can have all the manpower in the world, but you still need the money and equipment to keep up and that's something that's extremely overlooked if you check and see just how much support was given to them. Just like in the modern day where a lot of countries build their own armies but never invest into any logistics to the point where they're ineffective without help from friends like France.

Both sides needed each other or else it was going to be an even bloodier mess that would have went on much longer which would have only given time for Germany to field their advanced military advantages. The idea that one front is more important than the other is naive when you look at the big picture.

 

[Vagabundo]

My god, the kid has a serious streak of fascism in his ideology. I understand his desire to right some idiotic stereotypes, but man slow down on the sexism. Because obviously all russian soldiers were men, real men, not coward pussies (his words). Despite many women serving as mortar crews and infantry in the red army.

Oh and what about these gals?

These "Night Witches" fucking terrified the Germans. They would turn off their engines and glide over them reigning terror as the Germans never heard them coming. You couldn't make these stuff up.

Anyone wishing to really get some idea about the Eastern Front and it's unbelievable craziness (like roads being made out of frozen bodies because the mud was churned up so much) should listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.

You'll have to buy the older episodes to get the Siege of Stalingrad with all that good stuff, but this guy is very good, well worth the money.

 

[Jack Cayman]

Look, you are really misinformed. My parents and grandparents grew up in Soviet Union. They would find this statement hilarious. Just read up a bit more. Or just think logically. If their economy was based on peace not war then why did they have the largest number of tanks before the war? Or why did they trade with Germany? Even the most hardcore communists in Russia would probably laugh at you. Please read a bit more about the war. Your statements are offensive to me. Do you even realize that Russian language was not even native language to many people that lived in Soviet Union?!

Ok you have your sources first hand from your parents and grandparents. If you like you can share your nationality please, because of course in Soviet Union there were more than Russians.

Sorry about your sources but any military vehicle or tank was built during the WW2 in 1939 Soviet Union had more agricultural vehicles than military. Do you have any sources that say the opposite? Because I know more people here in Greece that were persecuted after the fall of Soviet Union most of them Russians and Greeks said they were betrayed by Gorbachev, later he admitted in the recent autobiography that himself and other that they were planning against the communist party to overthrow the regime plus they got big help by the American government.

Seriously now about the accusations of trading with Germany, is like saying why America is trading with Cuba(partially after 50 years)

http://www.cfr.org/cuba/us-cuba-relations/p11113

Really have you ever heard the Marshall Plan after the war and who benefited by that? Did you know that America, Britain and France after the WW2 re leave Germany of the debt own to them after the war, help rebuilt the West Germany and put the remaining Nazi politics in the helm of the government .

http://www.spiegel.de/international...is-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html

The war was against the communist not because Hitler was mad or racist. Get real is like saying the invasion in Iraq by America was to find the allocated weapons of mass destruction and not to establish a safe route of American interest in Oil business.

Every war in history was started because of economic and political expansion. Fact. The reasons that ignite the strife to give an excuse for invasion maybe different depending the time(religion, dictator regimes, profit).

Ok lets stop this here, lets say that we disagree and start writing about games ok.

Oh and what about these gals?

These "Night Witches" fucking terrified the Germans. They would turn off their engines and glide over them reigning terror as the Germans never heard them coming. You couldn't make these stuff up.

Anyone wishing to really get some idea about the Eastern Front and it's unbelievable craziness (like roads being made out of frozen bodies because the mud was churned up so much) should listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.

You'll have to buy the older episodes to get the Siege of Stalingrad with all that good stuff, but this guy is very good, well worth the money.

Edit:You sir are awesome The night witches were my favourite topic when I am talking about aviators in WW2, Miss Sarkisian should learn a thing or two about real feminists were during that time also this girls had more balls than any recent guy I know myself included.

 

[Varodor]

wow Jack Cayman, do not expect to see a normal person here

 

[soulassssns]

Company of Heroes is not a historical representation of the World War II. It's not a history sim. It takes the most exaggerated/stereotypical traits of each army and make them a gameplay mechanism trying to reach a balance of making it fun and entertaining.

#Winner

 

[zero shift]

I will never understand why people will defend the Soviet Union (especially Stalinist Soviet Union). I could only dream if it was Sankara or CNT members heading the October Revolution instead of that piece of shit Lenin. USSR turned Socialism from an idea of peace, equality, and opportunity, to hell on earth. What's worse is what the Soviet Union influenced many other nations to take up arms and copy its system.

 

[AllenShrz]

I was deeply offended by the misrepresentation of history found in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert games.

Yes, fuck Westwood. They and Relic are to be blame for their idiotic misrepresentations of their advertised historic accurate video games.

The guy in the video is a hero and not at all a jackass.

 

[Mgoblue201]

Every war in history was started because of economic and political expansion. Fact. The reasons that ignite the strife to give an excuse for invasion maybe different depending the time(religion, dictator regimes, profit).

I doubt most historians would agree with this reductionist view of history. The truth is many wars are begun for complex reasons, some of which may include ideology, nationalism, or contests of honor. The precise cause of any particular war is difficult to establish for many reasons, but most of all because it's impossible to know what would have happened in the absence of certain conditions. Long periods of peace may spiral into war for completely random and unexpected reasons. Yes, certain nations or parties may be the economic or political beneficiary of a conflict, especially because the losing party is in no position to resist the winner, but that doesn't mean those were the original factors which sparked the war.

 

[Axial]

As for Katyn Goebbels revealed the Katyn massacre at 13 of April in 1943, the massive grave was two years old when the researchers did their investigation so that makes go that the incident occurred in 1941 when Poland and Belarus was in full occupation form the Nazis,

I'm sorry, but are you really trying to prove here that the Katyn massacre was carried out by germans?
Does Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact ring a bell? Both nazi germany and soviet russia had influence in occupied baltic countries and poland. And the executions which were carried out by the NKVD did not take place in 1941 but in 1940, shortly after in september 1939 soviet russia invaded poland, so no, poland at that time was not in full occupation from the Nazis.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Oh and what about these gals?

These "Night Witches" fucking terrified the Germans. They would turn off their engines and glide over them reigning terror as the Germans never heard them coming. You couldn't make these stuff up.

Anyone wishing to really get some idea about the Eastern Front and it's unbelievable craziness (like roads being made out of frozen bodies because the mud was churned up so much) should listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.

You'll have to buy the older episodes to get the Siege of Stalingrad with all that good stuff, but this guy is very good, well worth the money.

I'm pretty much at the well of great historic works and professors(eastern european institute) here in Vienna, but I must say, that's the first time I heard about the Night Witches. Sounds absolutely crazy.

I only read witness accounts of german pioneers who captured soviet mortar and artillery positions and were shocked that they were operated by women. The soviet army wasn't anywhere as misogynistic as the idiot in this criticism video. That's the actual positive about hardcore communists, the gender equality is actually enforced (although in reality it was obviously still lacking) not just in education but also military service.
Which makes the neo nationalist movement in Russia so infuriating. It tries to create a new gender role for the Russian military hero that completely ignores the women in arms of the time. Despicable shit. To try and paint Stalingrad as anything else than a crime against humanity is despicable. It was a mass slaughter instigated by two of the greatest criminals of the last century, and there is no heroism in military actions there, only in humanitarian ways, and some of the shit that people have seen there is beyond believe.
My grandfather was actually on his way to Stalingrad, as part of the support troops, responsible to tend to the horses. He was sent home by a superior officer that learned that he already had 6 children and was thus eligible to return home.
That guy more than likely saved his life, and made it possible for my father to be born.

 

[Jack Cayman]

I'm sorry, but are you really trying to prove here that the Katyn massacre was carried out by germans?
Does Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact ring a bell? Both nazi germany and soviet russia had influence in occupied baltic countries and poland. And the executions which were carried out by the NKVD did not take place in 1941 but in 1940, shortly after in september 1939 soviet russia invaded poland, so no, poland at that time was not in full occupation from the Nazis.

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/nytonkatyn062945.pdf

Even New York times uncover the lies about Katyn, a minister Iliouchin in Public Douma in Russia revealed the papers were forgeries even the papers they presented were photocopies and the originals never presented until now, many scientist and experts at forgery also revealed that most of this papers were fabricated when they analyse the dates this papers signed or the persons were not even alive or present to create this so called proofs. But it was a very nice timing that Boris Eltsin after the new regime was trying to set foot in the New Russia presented "proofs" to Lech Wałęsa(how convenient) a big anti-communist and later President of Poland, some even tell that he had funding to built his union from CIA and the Catholic Church to make the Soviet Communist Party illegal.

http://mythcracker.wordpress.com/20...mmittee-of-the-cprf-made-by-gennady-zyuganov/

Also lab test that examine the bodies and found also papers on them with letters stating the exact date when the victim wrote the letters was in February 13 of 1941, also the state of decay when the bodies found medical examiners said would never be more than 2 years old, plus the bullets used on the victims were found was from German Luger pistol which were Wehrmacht officers using. The rope as well that found the bodies tied was made in Germany not on USSR. So better read Red Cross reports about Katyn also the medical examiners that Nazis first group was send to test the Katyn massive grave most of them executed before the war ended so Goebbels propaganda would not revealed.

http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/DigitalArchives/d804_r9-t78-1944/d804_r9-t78-1944.pdf

Communism is not the same as fascism. They are opposite ideologies and have nothing to do with what new order historians trying to present the Soviet Union. Hitler Invaded USSR not the opposite even if they had signed the treaty of non attack (ribbentrop-molotov) AFTER the USSR tried to contact with England and U.S.A when Nazi Germany Invaded Poland with total disregard from both sides. England and U.S.A entered the War after the Bombing of London 2 years and Pearl Harbor attack 3 years after the WW2 started! Before that they were passive to the massacres Nazi Germany did on Europe and Eastern Europe.

But as I saw in your profile you are Polish who raised in Germany, that explains a lot of thinks about your views in the subject. I am not saying this derogatory but as I understand what is being told to you and from which perspective.

Better start reading mate before making that statements about your owned people that suffered from Nazis as my people did. Polish people were marching with the Red Army when they liberate you from Germans and help them on the offensive on Raichstag more that 158.000 communist Polish people were part of the Red Army.

 

[Resident_UA]

Ok you have your sources first hand from your parents and grandparents. If you like you can share your nationality please, because of course in Soviet Union there were more than Russians.

Sorry about your sources but any military vehicle or tank was built during the WW2 in 1939 Soviet Union had more agricultural vehicles than military. Do you have any sources that say the opposite? Because I know more people here in Greece that were persecuted after the fall of Soviet Union most of them Russians and Greeks said they were betrayed by Gorbachev, later he admitted in the recent autobiography that himself and other that they were planning against the communist party to overthrow the regime plus they got big help by the American government.

Seriously now about the accusations of trading with Germany, is like saying why America is trading with Cuba(partially after 50 years)

http://www.cfr.org/cuba/us-cuba-relations/p11113

Really have you ever heard the Marshall Plan after the war and who benefited by that? Did you know that America, Britain and France after the WW2 re leave Germany of the debt own to them after the war, help rebuilt the West Germany and put the remaining Nazi politics in the helm of the government .

http://www.spiegel.de/international...is-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html

The war was against the communist not because Hitler was mad or racist. Get real is like saying the invasion in Iraq by America was to find the allocated weapons of mass destruction and not to establish a safe route of American interest in Oil business.

Every war in history was started because of economic and political expansion. Fact. The reasons that ignite the strife to give an excuse for invasion maybe different depending the time(religion, dictator regimes, profit).

Ok lets stop this here, lets say that we disagree and start writing about games ok.

From Ukraine... And most of the things that I'm saying are not even from the first sources. They are from OFFICIAL documents released by Soviet Union. For example 144,000 soldires were OFFICIALLY court marshalled and executed. (That's an insane number as is) There are a lot more documents that show how much Soviet leadership cared about its own population.

Anyway this is the last thing that I will write. I don't think that I can change your mind, but what is making me angry is the fact that you are defending cruel government that has nothing to do with your country. Your people never experienced the evils of that regime. Even in 1980s you could be prosecuted for telling a joke about communist party. My parents were PROHIBITED by the school to go to church.

P.S. just for you general knowledge. Just because you label something as communism does not make it into communism. China is "communist" nation with capilalism pretty much responsible for economic expansion. Technically communist government should be almost non existent but in Soviet Union there was the same cruel leader for decades. You can't bild your argument on labels...

 

[Axial]

http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/nytonkatyn062945.pdf

How neat, an outdated reuters dispatch from 1945 without any factual evidence to back it up, dug up by Grover Furr who in academical cricles is considered to be a known Stalin apologist. Yeah, nevermind this, did you ever watch "The Counterfeiters"? The german Sicherheitsdienst had a counterfeiting program called 'Operation Bernhard' at the Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen which employed Jewish prisoners. This operation was dedicated to forging financial instruments and occasionally, documents such as passports for espionage and sabotage against allied countries, not as a Katyn cover-up operation.

http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/DigitalArchives/d804_r9-t78-1944/d804_r9-t78-1944.pdf

Your so called 'source' is a propaganda piece published by a state commission formed by soviet authorities, including NKVD and Red Army officers.
Did you knew that investigators of the Russian Federation Main Military Prosecutor's Office in 1990 learned that the operational workers who were sent from Moscow to help in the examination of the bodies and graves between 1943 and 1944, had prepared forged documents with dates later than may 1940 and placed them in the clothes of selected victims? Did you also know that the witnesses mentioned in the report were threatened with the death penalty for the crime of cooperating with germans, so when interrogated by NKVD officers they agreed to say whatever they were told? No? Well there is more on this topic if you actually care, I suggest reading "Katyn: A Crime Without Punishment" from the "Annals of Communism Series".

Communism is not the same as fascism. They are opposite ideologies and have nothing to do with what new order historians trying to present the Soviet Union.

I agree and here's why - because communism as defined by Marx and Engels has never worked in real life, and the Soviet Union was proof since it was just another dictatorship. The way I see it Nazi germany and the USSR were both totalitarian systems in which all power came from the state or one higher authority(Hitler & Stalin), not from individuals. Both systems did not allow for parliamentary democracy and freedom of speech. Both relied heavily on suppression of dissent, and did not allow for a free discourse since both systems claimed to be the only truth.

But as I saw in your profile you are Polish who raised in Germany, that explains a lot of thinks about your views in the subject. I am not saying this derogatory but as I understand what is being told to you and from which perspective.

Y'know, atleast germans seem to have found a proper way of dealing with Nazi war crimes and atrocities, balancing an appropriate remembrance aswell as responsibility of the past and at the same time awareness and pride of their national identity. Russians on the other hand, still can't even recognize their own victims of Stalinism.

Better start reading mate before making that statements about your owned people that suffered from Nazis as my people did. Polish people were marching with the Red Army when they liberate you from Germans and help them on the offensive on Raichstag more that 158.000 communist Polish people were part of the Red Army.

Funny, you telling me to start reading, and about my own people... How about you read up on those people who were forcibly drafted into the red army - very glorious indeed. Or how about all those people deported or sent to gulags because they were considered too dangerous for the great and glorious USSR... like teachers, professors, doctors, lawyers, judges, politicians, priests, officials, etc.. Between 1939 and 1941 the Soviets sent roughly half a million polish citizens to Siberia(men and women!), includig my grandfathers father because they accused him of being an anti-communist - to this day we don't know what happend to him. Therefore please don't try to tell me that I'm not familiar with my countries own history.
As for Katyn, several people in this thread allready pointed out that the Russians approved a declaration blaming Stalin and other Soviet officials for the massacre. Considering this I don't see any reason to keep up this discussion with you, I'm sorry.

I appologize to everyone for going a bit OT.

 

[Remmy2112]

A random Axial appears and attacks. It is super effective.

 

[Vagabundo]

I'm pretty much at the well of great historic works and professors(eastern european institute) here in Vienna, but I must say, that's the first time I heard about the Night Witches. Sounds absolutely crazy.

I only read witness accounts of german pioneers who captured soviet mortar and artillery positions and were shocked that they were operated by women. The soviet army wasn't anywhere as misogynistic as the idiot in this criticism video. That's the actual positive about hardcore communists, the gender equality is actually enforced (although in reality it was obviously still lacking) not just in education but also military service.
Which makes the neo nationalist movement in Russia so infuriating. It tries to create a new gender role for the Russian military hero that completely ignores the women in arms of the time. Despicable shit. To try and paint Stalingrad as anything else than a crime against humanity is despicable. It was a mass slaughter instigated by two of the greatest criminals of the last century, and there is no heroism in military actions there, only in humanitarian ways, and some of the shit that people have seen there is beyond believe.
My grandfather was actually on his way to Stalingrad, as part of the support troops, responsible to tend to the horses. He was sent home by a superior officer that learned that he already had 6 children and was thus eligible to return home.
That guy more than likely saved his life, and made it possible for my father to be born.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. And I agree about the silly retroactive hero stuff.

 

[Corto]

Thanks Axial. I appreciate that you took the trouble to write such an informative post. Thank you. No need to apologize.

 

[Village]

Company of Heroes is not a historical representation of the World War II. It's not a history sim. It takes the most exaggerated/stereotypical traits of each army and make them a gameplay mechanism trying to reach a balance of making it fun and entertaining.

this is dismissive as hell.

 

[tea_and_crumpets]

Well it's pretty clear by watching for a few minutes that this guy is a nationalist idiot. He clearly views the military history of USSR as something glorious, to be proud of. That's enough to debunk any claims he has.

This was pretty much my view. Any real historical atrocity or bad thing the Soviets did, he basically papers over and criticizes Relic for including.

 

[zero shift]

I love Eastern European GAF setting things straight. Fuck the USSR and Stalinist Russia.

In the defense of "Communism" there are some nations in which the majority believe were better off under the hammer and sickle such as Hungary, Georgia, Bulgaria, Latvia, and Yugoslavia. But most countries behind the iron curtain, if one would try to defend them, the people their would just type things you are currently reading on this thread.

I agree and here's why - because communism as defined by Marx and Engels has never worked in real life

It has actually worked in small scale in places such as Israel kibbitz and what not. The problem that these revolutionaries seem to forget is that revolutions happen from within not by a strong force above. The French Revolution failed for a reason.

Y'know, atleast germans seem to have found a proper way of dealing with Nazi war crimes and atrocities, balancing an appropriate remembrance aswell as responsibility of the past and at the same time awareness and pride of their national identity. Russians on the other hand, still can't even recognize their own victims of Stalinism.

At least they aren't as bad as Japan.

 

[Jack Cayman]

If you do not study history from both sides you will never learn to judge by your own. This is my last post in this thread because the prejudise is very strong in some people to understand that the cold war ended with Soviets as losers so winners rewrite history as they see fit.

In some years from now history books will write that Nazis surrender to Superman and there will be people that will defend this... Rest my case.

 

[vazel]

The Counterfeiters is a good movie. I love how the BD has a disclaimer warning you about all the grain in that movie and how it's intended to look like that.

 

[not_so_special]

Sorry mate but your historical facts are so wrong that makes you as good as the writers of the script of Company of Heroes 2. WWII was a crime against humanity Katyn forest was commited by Nazis not Soviets and it was proved after the documents of Goebbels were revealed,...

tell me you are joking pls...if not..you are crazy..and a very dangerous one

I find it more surprising that he thinks that Nazis commited the Katyn Forest massacre, while there is enough proof and even a confirmation of that by Gorbatschow himself, that the Soviets did that and Goebbels documents just proved that Germany used it for their own propaganda and hate-machine.

I mean there are even enough survivor-stories by the Katyn Forest survivors that clearly states who the perpetrator of this was...

thats why this guy is a lunatic,the grandfather of one of my best friends was a katyn survivor,so this jack kayman is full of shit,sorry but he got my nerves on this one

 

[Chairmanchuck]

This is my last post in this thread because the prejudise is very strong in some people to understand that the cold war ended with Soviets as losers so winners rewrite history as they see fit.

The German were also the losers in WW2. The question is, why, if they really, like you think, were responsible for the Katyn Massacre, wont admit it?

Fuck, they made soap out of the victim of hairs, the used the skin of jews for lamps, they killed disabled people, just because they were disabled and did even worse thing to the people at Ausschwitz and other KZs. And Germany admitted all of this. 80 years after all what happened Germans still are taught about the hideous crimes the Nazis commited, are sorry for what happened and no one besides a few individuals in Germany thinks Nazis are heroes, but the most disgusting people during WW2, together with the Japanese.

So why wouldnt the Germans try to hide the "fact" they were involved in a Katyn-massacre?

 

[Croyles]

OH boo hoo. Try being German and having every second game be about your evil ancestors.