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[Anth0ny]

Well, to be fair, i've seen a lot of gafers expecting the Wii U versions of current gen HD games to run at 1080p. "It will be the same graphics, but in 1080p". And for the moment, apart from the hypothesis that my sources are working for incompetent and lazy studios (which is not the case), the system is not capable of that. But again, it's in a specific context, it doesn't exclude the possibility of 1080p games in a different one.

I continue to catch-up, 4 pages to read

It seems like the controller is really holding back the potential for this console when it comes to power.

So I have to ask... is it worth it? Is it worth having the bottom screen of a DS on our controller when we could be getting 60fps or 1080p on the TV screen instead?

Unfortunately, I think multiple Wii U controllers being used on one console is out of the question at this point. That's kinda fucked up. Looks we won't be able to play local 4 player Mario Kart or FPS games on 4 controller screens. Splitscreen it is =(

I think it would be hilarious if they released a classic controller with no screen. Maybe certain games would support it, and would be capable of 1080p/60fps without the stupid controller screen hogging all the power

 

[AceBandage]

It seems like the controller is really holding back the potential for this console when it comes to power.

So I have to ask... is it worth it? Is it worth having the bottom screen of a DS on our controller when we could be getting 60fps or 1080p on the TV screen instead?

Unfortunately, I think multiple Wii U controllers being used on one console is out of the question at this point. That's kinda fucked up. Looks we won't be able to play local 4 player Mario Kart or FPS games on 4 controller screens. Splitscreen it is =(

I think it would be hilarious if they released a classic controller with no screen. Maybe certain games would support it, and would be capable of 1080p/60fps without the stupid controller screen hogging all the power

Yes, it's worth it: With a caveat.

Developers should only use the controller to its fullest when they have unique ideas for it.
Don't use it as a freaking review mirror or something for the hell of it.
Use it to display something that fits in well with the action on screen.
And if you can't do that, just slap a 2D map on the thing and be done with it.

Like with the Wii, the best use will come from Nintendo and a rare niche game.

 

[HylianTom]

It seems like the controller is really holding back the potential for this console when it comes to power.

So I have to ask... is it worth it? Is it worth having the bottom screen of a DS on our controller when we could be getting 60fps or 1080p on the TV screen instead?

Unfortunately, I think multiple Wii U controllers being used on one console is out of the question at this point. That's kinda fucked up. Looks we won't be able to play local 4 player Mario Kart or FPS games on 4 controller screens. Splitscreen it is =(

I think it would be hilarious if they released a classic controller with no screen. Maybe certain games would support it, and would be capable of 1080p/60fps without the stupid controller screen hogging all the power

Well.. they have indeed noted that this console will also use the Wiimote. So I wonder if Wiimote-controlled games will have better graphical output?

(I have to laugh at that scenario. Wiimote games = better graphics? ha!)

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

It seems like the controller is really holding back the potential for this console when it comes to power.

So I have to ask... is it worth it? Is it worth having the bottom screen of a DS on our controller when we could be getting 60fps or 1080p on the TV screen instead?

Nintendo could give a shit.

Perfect example:

Look at the names of the console people here(or most) come up with and look at Nintendo's name for it.

Putting aside your preference and opinion, one is a bit deeper and philosophical and the others are generic and superheroish.

No way they're going to release a console that doesn't try to reinvent something, they'd rather not sell out because they'd feel they were wasting their ideas and talents.

Or at least that's what I get about them.

 

[guek]

So I have to ask... is it worth it?

I don't think that's something we can answer right now.

I think the wii-mote was worth it though. The sub-HD wii graphics? Probably not. The $250 wii price point? Absolutely.

 

[Nilaul]

Not when we have this already (in HD)!

I'm totally fin with whatever next-gen brings me as long as the talent is there to create gorgeous game worlds like these!

Could you imagine making an HD texture pack for MP3? For dolphin use? OMG

 

[Screenboy]

What was the new news??

 

[HylianTom]

Funny thing is, with Nintendo-developed games, we can rest assured that even with heavy use of the subscreen, they'll do everything they can to squeeze as much power out as possible onto the main screen.

So, in reality, a Wii U game by Nintendo using uPad might equal typical third party wiimote-only efforts. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

 

[Roo]

What was the new news??

Ideaman shattered everybody's dream...

Edit: I totally forgot we're getting the first Wii U Assassins Creed III screenshots in 4 days!

Spoiler

they better be Wii U's >:¬(

 

[AceBandage]

What was the new news??

Just a reiterations of what we knew.
Developers using the controller and TV to their fullest will not be a lot (key word) better than what we see now.
But using just the TV by itself will see a noticeable difference.

 

[bgassassin]

Just noticed that, according to an AMD spokesperson (via German tech site golem.de), the GPU will not be derived from any existing Radeon chip, but is actually a highly customized part specifically designed for Nintendo. Doesn't seem to be an R700 after all.

Interesting. Can't wait to see how games look using an HD TEV un...

Considering the long development time of the GPU and AMDs comments (and the fact that Wii U is backwards compatible but doesn't include Hollywood), I'm wondering if the GPU might be "Flipper 2". A modern, backwards compatible iteration of Flipper/ Hollywood, lots of hardwired stuff for high efficiency and predictable performance, plus a few hundred SPUs bolted on top.

I see I wasn't the only one thinking something similar.

Yeah i was referring to the Dev Kit GPU. And i think the flexibility of the hardware design is indeed involved here, as it appears the system guts were still in flux by at least a moderate level, just a few months ago (the bump that benefited the v4 dev kits.). The question is really if these changes are tweaking on a rather "fixed" GPU design (like frequencies), more intricate modifications (that would imply circuitry, additions of features, etc.) but not to an extent to "redesign" again the GPU/re-balance all the other components, or even a switch to another GPU of different type/generation/series.

I think considering the time frame those were tweaks since the newer hardware was "right around the corner". I don't think they had a need to do anything major at that point.

 

[Gianni Merryman]

Ugh.
Reading Fox's impressions of Kid Icarus in the other thread...
Smash Bros U/3DS is going to be fucking amazing.

I hope so!

Brawl hasn't nearly impressioned me as Melee did back in the day - I like Brawl's theme though - , and I'm expecting some more substantial novelties to convince me their game is worth my while this time around.

Glad to hear Kid Icarus is apparently a good game, now let's wait and see if it rips good sales as it deserves to.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Just noticed that, according to an AMD spokesperson (via German tech site golem.de), the GPU will not be derived from any existing Radeon chip, but is actually a highly customized part specifically designed for Nintendo. Doesn't seem to be an R700 after all.

Wha?

Now that is both very interesting and somewhat disturbing (or awesome) at the same time.

 

[AceBandage]

Wha?

Now that is both very interesting and somewhat disturbing (or awesome) at the same time.

Like I said earlier, this is how it always is.
It'll basically be Nintendo's own Radeon HD GPU.

 

[HylianTom]

I hope so!

Brawl hasn't nearly impressioned me as Melee did back in the day - I like Brawl's theme though - , and I'm expecting some more substantial novelties to convince me their game is worth my while this time around.

Glad to hear Kid Icarus is apparently a good game, now let's wait and see if it rips good sales as it deserves to.

I'm fighting the urge to spoil myself, and have been playing the first two titles over the
past few months. God, how I hope this game does well.. we need a fully-fleshed-out adventure on the U.

 

[DCKing]

My post got taken somewhat out of context. Everything we've heard about hardware is fine. Everything we've heard about software is that direct 360 ports don't seem much of an improvement, but it's mostly from second hand sources that are vague and inconsistent. Guess it's too soon for the thing to be showing its true colors.

People starting to say that adding a 480p viewpoint to a controller is impressive and takes serious power are simply wrong however. It's equivalent in many ways to running a 720p 360 game at 864p. In 2012, this is very mediocre, and people shouldn't say it's good because it's neither good or impressive. If anything I'm wondering what these extra effects could possibly mean.

 

[Roo]

Like I said earlier, this is how it always is.
It'll basically be Nintendo's own Radeon HD GPU.

Nintendo GPU manufacturer confirmed

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Like I said earlier, this is how it always is.
It'll basically be Nintendo's own Radeon HD GPU.

The super-secret Nintendo Radeon HD GPU.

 

[AceBandage]

When you see how shitty they are, you'll know it's Wii U...

They'll be standard bull shots from no console in particular.
Just like always.

My post got taken somewhat out of context. Everything we've heard about hardware is fine. Everything we've heard about software is that direct 360 ports don't seem much of an improvement, but it's mostly from second hand sources that are vague and inconsistent. Guess it's too soon for the thing to be showing its true colors.

People starting to say that adding a 480p viewpoint to a controller is impressive and takes serious power are simply wrong however. It's equivalent in many ways to running a 720p 360 game at 864p. In 2012, this is very mediocre, and people shouldn't say it's good because it's neither good or impressive. If anything I'm wondering what these extra effects could possibly mean.

If it was displaying the same image, you'd be right.
If it's having to render completely different scenes, then no.
It's the same reason why most split screen games have to be toned down, because it's having to render two different things, despite being the same resolution.

 

[Anth0ny]

Yes, it's worth it: With a caveat.

Developers should only use the controller to its fullest when they have unique ideas for it.
Don't use it as a freaking review mirror or something for the hell of it.
Use it to display something that fits in well with the action on screen.
And if you can't do that, just slap a 2D map on the thing and be done with it.

Like with the Wii, the best use will come from Nintendo and a rare niche game.

Another thing... what exactly are people expecting to see on the screen? Personally, I haven't imagined anything polygonal. Maybe I'm biased from 8 years of DS play, but all I'm seeing in my head are inventory screens, maps, HUD being cleaned of the main TV and relegated to the controller screen... nothing really crazy. I think it's a damn shame that what essentially equates to hitting the start button is holding us back from 1080p or 60fps.

We've seen that new Wii Sports thing. We've seen the ninja star game. Of course, that's polygonal and using the controller as something more than a bottom DS screen. But what about Mario? Zelda? Pokemon? Mario Kart? You know, the franchises people actually care about? How can they implement the new controller in a meaningful way? Because I'm thinking my hardest, and nothing comes to mind.

I felt the same way with Mario on the Wii. How will that motion controller add anything to Mario games? Ultimately, it didn't. It added a spin jump mapped to waggle. Same scenario here with the Wii U controller.

Conversely, I think we all were very excited with the potential the Wiimote showed for Zelda. Sword controls, aiming your bow/hookshot/whatever... that all came to mind the moment I saw the controller. Now, for Zelda, all I could think of when it comes to the Wii U controller is the inventory screen and map being there at all times. And maybe a couple of puzzles here and there. Awesome. Who needs 1080p!

 

[wsippel]

Interesting. Can't wait to see how games look using an HD TEV un...

I see I wasn't the only one thinking something similar.

Well, PICA200 with it's parametric engine is supposedly the most efficient embedded GPU on the planet and still handles a lot of modern effects (some of which would make Vita break in sweat), so fixed function certainly isn't quite dead yet. A gaming system isn't general purpose, Nintendo doesn't have to give a fuck about stuff like CAD, Photoshop, video encoding or scientific computing - for dedicated hardware, DSPs and fixed function pipelines make a whole lot of sense. Nintendo doesn't have to follow any arbitrary and way too broadly defined standards like DirectX or OpenGL to begin with, so they're free to do whatever they want.

 

[IdeaMan]

Remember that it's not just pixel fillrate at issue; it's also the overhead from effectively running split-screen. That has an impact even when it's limited to the same total resolution as the single screen mode.

The difference is actually ~.74M pixels. That's not as definitive as you think, though, as two independent views require more computational resources than just an increase in res - somebody has to run all the vertex shaders as well. It's pretty much a repeat of 3DS' situation with stereoscopy - a scene viewed from different cameras might double the vertex shader requirements. Only that in WiiU's case it also adds extra pixels.

ed: bah, beaten *shakes fist in TIE's general direction*

These posts from techies reinforce even more how the Wii U, in the specific context that i've described in my message, is a quite capable system, and this situation will only get better.

 

[blu]

Well, PICA200 with it's parametric engine is supposedly the most efficient embedded GPU on the planet and still handles a lot of modern effects (some of which would make Vita break in sweat), so fixed function certainly isn't quite dead yet. A gaming system isn't general purpose, Nintendo doesn't have to give a fuck about stuff like CAD, Photoshop, video encoding or scientific computing - for dedicated hardware, DSPs and fixed function pipelines make a whole lot of sense. Nintendo doesn't have to follow any arbitrary and way too broadly defined standards like DirectX or OpenGL to begin with, so they're free to do whatever they want.

You're being broadly facetious with the above, you joker, you.

 

[wsippel]

You're being broadly facetious with the above, you joker, you.

Nah, I'm just drunk...

But I really like dedicated logic. I still own (and use) one of these babies:

Four Analog Devices SHARC (Super Harvard ARChitecture) DSPs. Not all that impressive these days, but it was quite an eye opening experience when I first got it.

 

[DCKing]

If it was displaying the same image, you'd be right.
If it's having to render completely different scenes, then no.
It's the same reason why most split screen games have to be toned down, because it's having to render two different things, despite being the same resolution.

Different viewpoints are not different scenes.

 

[AceBandage]

Different viewpoints are not different scenes.

Yes?
Unless you're suggesting that they render an entire world even if it's not on screen...

 

[Donnie]

My post got taken somewhat out of context. Everything we've heard about hardware is fine. Everything we've heard about software is that direct 360 ports don't seem much of an improvement, but it's mostly from second hand sources that are vague and inconsistent. Guess it's too soon for the thing to be showing its true colors.

People starting to say that adding a 480p viewpoint to a controller is impressive and takes serious power are simply wrong however. It's equivalent in many ways to running a 720p 360 game at 864p. In 2012, this is very mediocre, and people shouldn't say it's good because it's neither good or impressive. If anything I'm wondering what these extra effects could possibly mean.

It isn't no, increasing the resolution of a single scene and rendering two different scenes aren't equivalent and don't have equivalent requirements even if the total resolution is the same. They both require more pixels (about 45% more if the WiiU controller is 854x480). But while your example only requires extra pixels, the other also requires a doubling of many work loads, like geometry transformation, lighting ect).

 

[IdeaMan]

Phewww, i finally caught-up with all the new pages (there are some extrapolations as always, but the community is keeping itself in check well), but now it's 1am here so cya tomorrow guys

 

[jump_button]

I really hope they a sleep mode, I was just thinking this really may change the how easy it be to pick up and drop back into a game not only with sleep mode but if they something on TV but you just want to get to next area or what ever.

 

[DCKing]

Yes, it also requires both increased shader perfomance as well as pixel fillrate performance. Neither required increase is impressive however. I'm being simplistic here, this could be done by simply overclocking Xenos 45% (and adding a bit more EDRAM). Not impressive by any means. Now I know that the final hardware will be much better than that, but these feats are very mediocre accomplishments so far. They'll improve, but they have to.

 

[onilink88]

It seems the castle has been destroyed; its lord, Miyamoto, and his vassals, Iwata, Reggie, Sakurai, Aounuma, Sakamoto, Koizumi, Tezuka and Hayashida, will go on to become male prostitutes, leaving all their IPs to be handled by Retro.

The only speculation left to be had here is: how much is each of these individuals going to sell themselves for.

 

[AceBandage]

It seems the castle has been destroyed; its lord, Miyamoto, and his vassals, Iwata, Reggie, Sakurai, Aounuma, Sakamoto, Koizumi, Tezuka and Hayashida, will go on to become male prostitutes, leaving all their IPs to be handled by Retro.

The only speculation left to be had here is: how much is each of these individuals going to sell themselves for.

Well, both Sakurai and Iwata have AMAZING hair, so they would go for a lot.

 

[Donnie]

Yes, it also requires both increased shader perfomance as well as pixel fillrate performance. Neither required increase is impressive however. I'm being simplistic here, this could be done by simply overclocking Xenos 45% (and adding a bit more EDRAM). Not impressive by any means. Now I know that the final hardware will be much better than that, but these feats are very mediocre accomplishments so far. They'll improve, but they have to.

No, again you're only looking at the pixel increase for some reason, there are other bigger issues, how would a 45% overclocked Xenos do around twice the vertex shading ops for instance? There's no guarantee at all that both viewpoints would always be similar enough to share most textures, geometry, lighting or shadows after all.

This is also all ignoring, once again, that Ideaman said the WiiU version was better looking as well as rendering the two view points.

 

[onilink88]

Well, both Sakurai and Iwata have AMAZING hair, so they would go for a lot.

I could see Iwata coasting on his sexy hair. But Sakurai'll be valued at a hefty sum due to the fact that he doesn't age.

 

[udivision]

Yes?
Unless you're suggesting that they render an entire world even if it's not on screen...

Maybe he means that if the game has loaded the "Brick Wall" texture for this scene, it's not going to need to reload it. That doesn't apply for everything though.

 

[AceBandage]

Maybe he means that if the game has loaded the "Brick Wall" texture for this scene, it's not going to need to reload it. That doesn't apply for everything though.

Well sure, you could preload certain textures, but not lighting and most models.

 

[lednerg]

I would much rather have developers stick with 720p AA and then ramp up the complexity until they are down to 30fps. I don't want them to even bother with 60fps unless it's a racing or fighting game. 1080p should be reserved for games that don't require complex, realistic environments - otherwise it's a waste of resources. (This goes for the next Xbox and PlayStation as well.)

 

[blu]

Yes, it also requires both increased shader perfomance as well as pixel fillrate performance. Neither required increase is impressive however. I'm being simplistic here, this could be done by simply overclocking Xenos 45% (and adding a bit more EDRAM). Not impressive by any means. Now I know that the final hardware will be much better than that, but these feats are very mediocre accomplishments so far. They'll improve, but they have to.

No. Let's say that for a give scene the vertex/pixel shader workload ratio is X/Y, where X + Y = 1 (i.e. 100% shader performance; for simplicity we assume our scene is entirely shader-bound). Now, if we added another view with its own camera at the same scene (again, for simplicity) amounting to 45% the res of the original view, we'd get 2 * X + 1.45 * Y. Now, since we don't know what the original X/Y ratio was, we can't tell how much exactly the overall workload increased. But we know it will be between 1.45x (for X = 0, Y = 1) and 2x (for X = 1, Y = 0). So, at the very minimum, our shader workload increased by 45%, but it could be by 100% just as well.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Really, i don't see HOW people can start to be depressed by my information. When you consider the tidbit of data + the context, it's quite promising on the contrary. The Wii U is clearly not a 5X xbox360 in all areas, with such powerful capabilities that ports have character models and environment with 2x the polygons count without difficulty, but it was CLEARLY not a Xbox360 or 1,2x current gen, a few months ago. With all the optimization that will come before the mass production of the retail version, in hardware, software, os/background managing + newer dev kits + newer SDK + third-parties getting better at developing for it + first-parties with more optimized engines, you can expect more of something already quite capable for reasonable people.

I'm not depressed about your information at all. I'm quite optimistic. Anyway, rest well and thanks for sharing what info you could.

 

[guek]

Oh man. I just realized how awesome Twilight Princess in HD would be without a HUD. I love that game. I've replayed it almost once a year since I bought it in 06...and I would do so again if I could in HD...

edit:

twilight princess on dolphin with an HD texture pack

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Oh man. I just realized how awesome Twilight Princess in HD would be without a HUD. I love that game. I've replayed it almost once a year since I bought it in 06...and I would do so again if I could in HD...

Oh God that would be amazing ^_^

 

[HylianTom]

Oh man. I just realized how awesome Twilight Princess in HD would be without a HUD. I love that game. I've replayed it almost once a year since I bought it in 06...and I would do so again if I could in HD...

edit:

twilight princess on dolphin with an HD texture pack

Wow. That's friggin' gorgeous. Sign me up for two preorder copies!

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Wow. That's friggin' gorgeous. Sign me up for two preorder copies!

I don't know..the ground texture is still pretty ugly.

 

[lednerg]

Okay, just caught up on the news.

First off, chill. We're talking about second hand information from a couple devs about beta hardware running unoptimized code. We're not going to be able to paint an accurate picture of what the console will end up like with that info. However, it does give us some insight as to what these developers are up to, and it is very encouraging. They're not just sticking an inventory screen on the uPad and calling it a day. They're actually trying - which is all Nintendo gamers have wanted from 3rd parties all this time.

 

[guek]

I don't know..the ground texture is still pretty ugly.

well it is a fan-made texture pack

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

well it is a fan-made texture pack

Yeah, but I mean compared to the rest of the textures shown there...the ground texture is nasty.

 

[HylianTom]

I'm used to seeing the ultra-muddy crusty version. So yeahh.. it's an improvement.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Oh man. I just realized how awesome Twilight Princess in HD would be without a HUD. I love that game. I've replayed it almost once a year since I bought it in 06...and I would do so again if I could in HD...

edit:

twilight princess on dolphin with an HD texture pack

Man I wish my laptop could run that....

All I can do is pray for an HD Remaster on Wii U.

 

[Kjellson]

Summary of the last few pages for the technology noob anyone?

 

[abstract alien]

Man I wish my laptop could run that....

All I can do is pray for an HD Remaster on Wii U.

Nintendo love to re-release games, and an HD upgrade of sorts is just about the only way to do so since it will be their first HD console. Unless they want us to play with borders and whatnot, which I can see them doing as well.