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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis

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joesiv

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Everything about this unified platform things sounds like a bad idea to me. Just look at Windows 8 trying to make an OS for tablets and standard PCs. You get a middling OS. A handheld console hybrid would just be a middling game device in my opinion.
To be honest, the windows 8 setup is probably the most compelling reason to buy one of their tablets (the Surface Pro though), the interface is perfect for tablets (or even TVs), and you get complete compatibility with any windows application.

But you also get a full desktop if you need it.

I can see MS carving out a huge chunk of the tablet market because of windows 8, as these laptop/tablets converge (tablets with removable keyboards).

But your analogy doesn't really hold well to the whole nintendo portable/home console thing.

Both handheld and home consoles are game machines, and they display games on a screen with a control input. Whereas the windows 8 thing is more about metro versus desktop. Nintendo will never heed a mouse based desktop style UI to confuse the matter. It's a gaming platform, whether portable or at home.

A better analogy would be android, where it's primarily a handheld device, often a tablet, and now a days on your TV, via HDMI, or even wireless dongles, the platform is the same, so developement is very easy, but the size/distance of output is different, and some of these devices even have different skins to optimize the experience.

If Nintendo would do something like that, it could be even better as it would be from a single vender, with a single vision, rather than the multiple vender setup android finds its self in.
 

joesiv

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Showing a prototype is very different than a mass manufactured low cost product...
Also, at what point does a "bend" become a "fold?" they could easily have been showing "bendable" tech, that bends to 180, with a certain curvature, and people call it a fold.

But alas, even a fairly tight 180 bend would be pretty neat, and would work fine in a clamshell console design.
 

AlStrong

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true, but if (and admittedly that's a big if) there's a Samsung phone with foldable display by 2015, that would already mean the display is affordable, just not affordable to Nintendo yet.
Depends on what the price point Samsung starts with, I guess, although generally I would think these cutting edge phones are far above the selling price point Nintendo will be looking at (<$200).
 

efyu_lemonardo

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Also, at what point does a "bend" become a "fold?" they could easily have been showing "bendable" tech, that bends to 180, with a certain curvature, and people call it a fold.

But alas, even a fairly tight 180 bend would be pretty neat, and would work fine in a clamshell console design.
talk about the display shown at CES is that it would be foldable enough that two sides of the screen would be a millimeter from each other, and that it could withstand being folded 100,000 times before a 6% decrease in brightness (which is said to be unnoticeable).

reports make it sound like Samsung still have some work to do, but that with this model they've also overcome some previous obstacles with regards to folding.

Depends on what the price point Samsung starts with, I guess, although generally I would think these cutting edge phones are far above the selling price point Nintendo will be looking at (<$200).
I tend to agree, I just really want to see it :p
 

Mpl90

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So, you want both dual screen, foldable, and to imitate a tablet, right? When foldable screens will start being produced in 2016? And you maybe want it to be a phone as well, right? But do you you that such things...


...are possible?

This is the setup idea I wanted to share with you here.

I already posted it in the Nintendo phone thread. I'll quote myself from that thread

Similarly to Dell Inspiron Duo, the center of the front part rotates around its horizontal axis. Thanks to that, when closed, just by rotating the central part, it becomes a phone. When you open the console, there's the DS/3DS setup and, by rotating the axis, here's the top screen with the camera.

Moreover, by rotating the conjunctions (and L & R), you can have the tablet form of the device. And, with just a pressure, L & R comes out with a little stand, like for ZL and ZR buttons on Wii U GamePad, in order to handhle the console as well as possible.

Probably you noticed the bad quality of my sketches, I did them in 15-20 minutes, also using the DS and 3DS design as default, so not even an original design.

I thought about many possibilities for such an idea: they could sell first the model "phone-console", where there's just the rotating top part, then the "tablet-console", and then the "phone-tablet-console".
Moreover, this would allow to have just a camera for the device, since it's in the rotating top part. And, when you shoot photos to other people, the top rotated screen could be useful for who is being photographed, to see if they're in the right positions and something like that (who's shooting would use the bottom screen).
 

Donnie

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I really hope not, that is a TERRIBLE idea.

Nothing that goes into a handheld any time soon is going to be powerful enough to compete as a console. Using similar architecture but with a power difference between them, and running the same or very similar OS would be a much smarter unified platform. That way you can meet the needs and requirements of a handheld, ie low power draw, long battery life and meet the needs of a console.

Doing that would mean the possibility of crossplatform support, specially for digital only, and VC titles. It would allow one team to easily jump from a handheld title to a console title and vs versa. There are so many benefits to that and some pretty huge cons to a console/handheld hybrid.

To do a console/handheld in one is asinine and asking for 3rd parties to ignore them even more than they already are.
A unified platform is what Nintendo say they aren't looking to do, again I was just trying to figure out what that means. Because while I hate the sound of a console/handheld hybrid I actually like the sound of two seperate devices (console and handheld) using the same architecture.
 

Fourth Storm

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I Imagine the problems they had with implementing miiverse on 3ds, and developing smash on 3ds and Wii U at the same time influenced this decision.
Certainly possible. I keep thinking perhaps when Nintendo found it necessary to improve the Wii U OS, they realized the process could have been sped up by having some additional expertise from likeminded guys on the portable group.

It basically sounds like Nintendo will take advantage of the restructuring of their hardware/software development groups to create their own custom middleware that is hardware agnostic, at least to an extent. There are many benefits to this including sharing of assets between console and handheld devices, quicker transitions for game developers between hardware generations (devs will be able to target a very rough estimate for performance on existing versions of the middleware, based on reasonable predictions by the hardware/OS team), easier to implement backwards compatibility which will allow them to continue selling legacy titles without having to port them over again to each new hardware, and (as Iwata hints) greater flexibility with hardware and platform releases (both internally developed experimental hardware and actual retail "third pillar" type products).

The downside to this will obviously be raw performance and per-platform optimisation, but it'd be very typical for Nintendo to feel comfortable with this tradeoff, as performance is something that will only continue to increase on all platforms, and Nintendo have never really been that adamant about pushing their own hardware to its absolute limits, preferring to have an easy development environment whenever there was a choice between the two.

edit: Two interesting thoughts in this context: If this ends up being the direction they choose to go, to what extent will said middleware be hardware agnostic, and will Nintendo agree to license the middleware to third parties?
I don't think it's going to go as far as to cut off low level access to the hardware. Nintendo already offer their Web Framework and Unity for free and I expect them to keep pushing those with indie devs. Libraries are one thing, and all platform holders make those available to third parties. So maybe Nintendo are making GX2 or their next api usable across platforms, as Opengl already is. Makes sense since their next handheld is certain to have programmable shaders. It sounds like Iwata just wants the process of preparing libraries for each system to go more efficiently. Their own in house IDE is likely being updated to work across platforms, though, which is pretty cool.
 

Shin Johnpv

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A unified platform is what Nintendo say they aren't looking to do, again I was just trying to figure out what that means. Because while I hate the sound of a console/handheld hybrid I actually like the sound of two seperate devices (console and handheld) using the same architecture.
On the bolded part we can agree. It seems like it would make a lot of sense to have the same environment for handheld and console development. Have everything have the same feature set, and code base but vastly different when it came to power.
 

DonMigs85

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If this thing really only has 160 ALUs then the Tegra K1 may actually have more floating point power (and possibly more main memory bandwidth to work with)
 

AlStrong

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If this thing really only has 160 ALUs then the Tegra K1 may actually have more floating point power (and possibly more main memory bandwidth to work with)
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/tegra-k1-kepler-project-denver,3718-4.html

192SPs
8TUs
4 ROPs
64-bit DDR3 (w/ 128kB L2).

950MHz (max) to hit 365GFLOPs - Tom mentions 1.2GP/s on page 1, which implies 300MHz, which might be the "2W" config, but that's just a guess. *shrug*

...

Kepler's shaders ought to be quite a bit ahead of VLIW in terms of throughput efficiency (+ more modern/complete set of compute features than rv7xx gen).

IIRC, rv7xx designs had 64KB L2 per MC, but it'd still be difficult to discount the additional bandwidth from eDRAM.

---

The whole chip may be around 80mm^2 as well. GK208 is basically 2xSMX @ 80mm^2 - remove 1 SMX and shove in the CPU etc in K1. *shrug*
 

tipoo

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Nov 20, 2012
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If this thing really only has 160 ALUs then the Tegra K1 may actually have more floating point power (and possibly more main memory bandwidth to work with)
It does, theoretically. The Wii U was ~172Gflops iirc. The K1s GPU hits 365. There are several other factors of course, like sustained memory bandwidth, throttling due to heat, and the K1 having 4 ROPs rather than 8, but it does seem the U GPU will already be beaten by smartphones this very generation.
 

Saint Gregory

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While this is an interesting idea, I think it would be too expensive to be something they pursue. If they decide to be remotely competitive spec wise on the hardware of both the console and handheld space, then you'd be looking at a 600 - 700 dollar system. Which is INSANITY, gamers are going to drop that much. Parents aren't going to drop that much. It's much better to sell them as

Though as I reread your post you seem to mean it as a redo of the Wii U, and that's just not going to happen. Nintendo's not going to drop the Wii U, no matter how badly it does. They're going to ride it out, and I don't think you'll see a replacement console till 2017/18 IMHO.
Yeah, I'm entirely sure where a system like the one I'm describing would fit into the hardware picture. I'm thinking of something that would be an affordable gaming tablet but also double as a Wii U pad. That would probably mean that Nintendo would have to drop the existing pad from a revised SKU or eat the extra costs of the new pad and sell it together with the Wii U.

A padless model of the Wii U has been debated since before the system was even released and I'm really wondering what Nintendo would have to lose by giving it a shot at this point. A pad revision of some kind for a separate product would be necessary I think in that scenario but probably not anything as radical as the 3rd pillar tablet I was thinking about.
 

BaBaRaRa

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Yeah, I'm entirely sure where a system like the one I'm describing would fit into the hardware picture. I'm thinking of something that would be an affordable gaming tablet but also double as a Wii U pad. That would probably mean that Nintendo would have to drop the existing pad from a revised SKU or eat the extra costs of the new pad and sell it together with the Wii U.

A padless model of the Wii U has been debated since before the system was even released and I'm really wondering what Nintendo would have to lose by giving it a shot at this point. A pad revision of some kind for a separate product would be necessary I think in that scenario but probably not anything as radical as the 3rd pillar tablet I was thinking about.
They'd lose the entire 'together alone' vision that motivated the console .

I'd be much more interested if they dropped the wiiu from the gamepad.
 

efyu_lemonardo

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I don't think it's going to go as far as to cut off low level access to the hardware. Nintendo already offer their Web Framework and Unity for free and I expect them to keep pushing those with indie devs. Libraries are one thing, and all platform holders make those available to third parties. So maybe Nintendo are making GX2 or their next api usable across platforms, as Opengl already is. Makes sense since their next handheld is certain to have programmable shaders. It sounds like Iwata just wants the process of preparing libraries for each system to go more efficiently. Their own in house IDE is likely being updated to work across platforms, though, which is pretty cool.
thanks for the detailed feedback!
why cross out that stuff about GX2?
 

w1gglyjones

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Wow, really? I'd like to see it. I know they've historically liked making profits off hardware, but I thought that was still marginal to their game sales on that hardware.
It's not a chart for profit but revenue. Their hardware revenue is has historically generated a certain amount of revenue over their software. Profit margins for total software is naturally higher.
 
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Almost certainly off-topic, but I don't quite want to make a new thread, because it would go to shit quickly. Also, I'd need to post a source, and I don't really want to get people in trouble. Anyway, Nintendo apparently started working on a new platform in early 2013 and has already selected a vendor for the SoC after talking to several potential candidates. The SoC might be based on an existing design, but will be changed to fit Nintendo's requirements. I assume it's for their next handheld, though.
This article about it is dated 2012:
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/06/12/nintendo-working-on-future-handheld-generation
 

krizzx

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Sep 22, 2012
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This is what I thought they were working on.

Its always handheld, then console.

I always took all of the info I see now as Nintendo working on a new handheld. I'm sure they are thinking of their next console. They starting work on the Wii U back in 2007 less than a year after the Wii released.

People seem to be jumping to conclusions on what Nintendo is doing if you ask me. It looks like business as usual.
 

z0m3le

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I think from Iwata's comments last week, we can assume that what we know about Nintendo will again change like it did in 2006 with the release of the Wii. Their focus was on what the customer wanted at that time, and now they know that low power usage isn't important to their customers anymore. That is one example of what I believe has changed.

Nintendo just stated that they will be looking at gaming trends and basing their future off what they can gleam figure out from it, more or less. There is 2 trends in the market for them to look at (2 success stories):
1. The smart phone app environment/Android and iOS success.
2. The PS4.

Nintendo can target one or both of these. I think considering their 2 platform approach atm, they will target both, the western SoC is likely AMD, they have a long held relationship with them, IBM while being a long time partner for Nintendo, no longer really works on the design of their chips and they can't really give Nintendo the sort of SoC that they would require, while AMD can.

I think we are looking at a slightly custom set up directly from AMD this time. Nintendo can go ARM on their DS line using AMD ARM chips and follow Sony for a cheaper 2016 system (end of the year.) I think it's possible for Nintendo to do some cross gen titles with Wii U and their future console. It could also be a 6 month split between their handheld and console, meaning a 2016 holiday for their console and a 2017 spring launch for their handheld.

Meanwhile, a 3rd platform that is basically $99 or less with the sole purpose of running VC and eShop games, would make a great deal of sense for Nintendo to pursue, just a single screen 2DS form factor would work, in fact, I wouldn't mind if it was a branch of the 3DS family with added functionality (basically just 3DS backwards compatible, but has NFC and full screen touch/multitouch rather than just the bottom of the screen.) making it compatible with both 3DS and Wii software would be a huge bonus. Though I would expect it to run "nintendo web framework" for it's software as that is a huge part of their cross platform future IMO.
 
Quite interesting from You z0m3le, and it will suffice a NIntendo2DS lite to have " ... basically $99 or less (device) with the sole purpose of running VC and eShop games". And I would buy one, or go with a plain Nintendo2DS in the near future.

Take note that Nintendo is not so bleeding edge in software at the moment, besides Tokyo Software Development Department and Monolith soft.
 

z0m3le

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The other purpose of a device like that is to help create a cheap app environment for Android and iOS software, the portrait display would make it very easy to adopt for their games, it just has to play up a slimmer design by moving the hand placement higher, closer to the screen allowing the forum factor to slim without cramping gamers hands.

Of course this means updating the 3DS Chip that runs everything to openes2.0 for unity support.
 

Apophis2036

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I think we are looking at a slightly custom set up directly from AMD this time. Nintendo can go ARM on their DS line using AMD ARM chips and follow Sony for a cheaper 2016 system (end of the year.) I think it's possible for Nintendo to do some cross gen titles with Wii U and their future console. It could also be a 6 month split between their handheld and console, meaning a 2016 holiday for their console and a 2017 spring launch for their handheld.
Interesting post and I agree with much of it except the bolded above. If there is one thing I would put money on with regards to Nintendo it's that there will be at least an 18 month gap between console launches this time due to the difficulty in keeping two systems fed with games in their first nine months on the market.

With regards having big name later gen WiiU games as launch games for the next home console, I do wonder how difficult it would be to port them from WiiU to a completely different architecture, although at this point it really wouldn't surprise me if the next home console is a four core version of the WiiU CPU with 4GB's of RAM and a 500GFLOP GPU :p.
 

lwilliams3

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Interesting post and I agree with much of it except the bolded above. If there is one thing I would put money on with regards to Nintendo it's that there will be at least an 18 month gap between console launches this time due to the difficulty in keeping two systems fed with games in their first nine months on the market.

With regards having big name later gen WiiU games as launch games for the next home console, I do wonder how difficult it would be to port them from WiiU to a completely different architecture, although at this point it really wouldn't surprise me if the next home console is a four core version of the WiiU CPU with 4GB's of RAM and a 500GFLOP GPU :p.
In the scenario Z0mbie stated, the major games should be cross-compatible from the two (or more) systems, so it will be significantly easier for Nintendo to keep their game input steady.

Iwata said:
As you might already know from some newspaper reports, we will reorganize our development divisions next month for the first time in nine years. Two divisions which have independently developed handheld devices and home consoles will be united to form the Integrated Research & Development Division, which will be headed by Genyo Takeda, Senior Managing Director.

Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferrable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform. They will also work to avoid software lineup shortages or software development delays which tend to happen just after the launch of new hardware.

Some time ago it was technologically impossible to have the same architecture for handheld devices and home consoles and what we did was therefore reasonable. Although it has not been long since we began to integrate the architecture and this will have no short-term result, we believe that it will provide a great benefit to our platform business in the long run. I am covering this topic as today is our Corporate Management Policy Briefing.
I don't think the Wii U was designed with this in mind, though. BC with the Wii was a higher focus. Nintendo may have decided to "start over" with designing its hardware architecture when they were having such a hard time developing the Wii U and/or downporting Miiverse to the 3DS. BC may have to be sacrificed to get an intergrated architecture.
 

z0m3le

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Interesting post and I agree with much of it except the bolded above. If there is one thing I would put money on with regards to Nintendo it's that there will be at least an 18 month gap between console launches this time due to the difficulty in keeping two systems fed with games in their first nine months on the market.

With regards having big name later gen WiiU games as launch games for the next home console, I do wonder how difficult it would be to port them from WiiU to a completely different architecture, although at this point it really wouldn't surprise me if the next home console is a four core version of the WiiU CPU with 4GB's of RAM and a 500GFLOP GPU :p.
I think the low power consumption focus they have been so focused on is over. Iwata's biggest comment last week IMO, was that they misread the market and that they need to pay closer attention to trends. (Those two game related trends are mobile and PS4's success, and maybe VR) Wii U's architecture could work, to both be scaled up and down, but considering Wsippel's info, I think we are looking at AMD offering SoC for both, and I do think they will do both through AMD, which will make their VC emulation far simpler, their BC can still be possible with a small co processor and most importantly, their APIs can be identical across the board.

Having different hardware, APIs usually have to be pretty high level, (IE not close to the metal at all) but with AMD GPUs in both, you'd have virtually the same APIs possible. (this is my understanding of how it works, so feel free to correct me if you KNOW better)

ARM CPU (from AMD) could work for both platforms honestly, but if they come in by 2016, using X86 would be far better for catching PS4 devs as they are dropping 360/PS3 development.

2015 will likely see the last major support for those previous consoles, so giving developers dev kits in 2015 for a launch in late 2016 or early 2017 would be ideal for them, especially if it's basically a PS4 in architecture, and I'd just use mantle at this point, to further stress that this is open for developers.

PS4 and XB1 won't have refreshes until 2018 at the earliest, my personal opinion is 2019 for PS5 is most likely, unless their hand is forced.

I'd really like to see Nintendo adopt a 3rd device that is more of an addon, jump into the world of virtual displays with AR Glasses that use Wii U's wireless streaming tech at a much higher bit rate, to send data from successors to DS and Wii U, to a tiny projector (via google glasses) give it some gyros and a kinect style tracking system so you can play device free (certain games/software) you could get a device out like that without the innards for such a low price ($99 would work) Street pass would be amazing too, and to be perfectly honest, that is all they would need to implement gamepad style gameplay.

P.S. I would love to see Nintendo adopt Android as a dual OS for their handheld (maybe console as well) they in this way could use a variant of Espresso for the game OS / Games, and put a cheaper mid range ARM CPU for the benefit of running Android. This way you could give the device an instant library without opening it up to pirates.
 

Shin Johnpv

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As poorly as the Wii U is doing, I don't see Nintendo releasing a new console in 2016. For a couple of reasons. It's too soon from the release of the Wii U which is going to REALLY hurt any consumer faith that's left. Second the system would only be 3 years out from the PS4/XB1 and AT LEAST 2 - 3 years AHEAD of any possible PS5/XB2. Which puts them in a similar problem as now and with the Wii. They end up with a mid generation system that isn't enough of a boost to run last gen games a step ahead, but then not strong enough for getting next gen down ports.

They would be smarter to listen to the market, work with AMD, but plan on launching their next home console system closer to the PS5/XB2 with specs more inline with those systems.

I do think if they go with a unified architecture they could better support a home and handheld console launch.
 

Log4Girlz

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As poorly as the Wii U is doing, I don't see Nintendo releasing a new console in 2016. For a couple of reasons. It's too soon from the release of the Wii U which is going to REALLY hurt any consumer faith that's left. Second the system would only be 3 years out from the PS4/XB1 and AT LEAST 2 - 3 years AHEAD of any possible PS5/XB2. Which puts them in a similar problem as now and with the Wii. They end up with a mid generation system that isn't enough of a boost to run last gen games a step ahead, but then not strong enough for getting next gen down ports.

They would be smarter to listen to the market, work with AMD, but plan on launching their next home console system closer to the PS5/XB2 with specs more inline with those systems.

I do think if they go with a unified architecture they could better support a home and handheld console launch.
I can't imagine Nintendo waiting that long to make money off of a console.
 

Nostremitus

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What if they really bite the bullet and release a new console with an APU as well as the IBM Tricore CPU? This would enable backwards compatability while still creating a system with an environment suitable for third party ports... Then they send current Wii U owners a voucher for a discounted "upgrade."

Edit: I just realized this CPU/APU idea was mentioned in that fan-fic rumor about the next system, but whatever.

Edit2: I do not in any way think this a going to happen, felt I should throw that out there.
 

Log4Girlz

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What if they really bite the bullet and release a new console with an APU as well as the IBM Tricore CPU? This would enable backwards compatability while still creating a system with an environment suitable for third party ports... Then they send current Wii U owners a voucher for a discounted "upgrade."

Edit: I just realized this CPU/APU idea was mentioned in that fan-fic rumor about the next system, but whatever.

Edit2: I do not in any way think this a going to happen, felt I should throw that out there.
Whatever they do, their next console is going to be dirt cheap and not lose any money.
 

User Tron

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Whatever they do, their next console is going to be dirt cheap and not lose any money.
Well I'm not so sure. Nintendo was surprised that the Deluxe Pack sold better than the Basic. Both PS4 and X1 are selling well at higher prices. Maybe Iwata meant that when he said he misread the western market.
 

Log4Girlz

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If they don't they're just making the same mistake again. You take the loss for now, and come back more profitable next gen. Releasing 2 - 3 years ahead of the competition is a terrible idea.
Investors are already giving them shit about lowered profits. They will not sit idly by for years. 3DS isn't going to suddenly become a cash cow and float their entire business.
 

Nostremitus

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Whatever they do, their next console is going to be dirt cheap and not lose any money.
I'm not so sure about that.

We cannot continue a business without winning. We must take a skeptical approach whether we can still simply make game players, offer them in the same way as in the past for 20,000 yen or 30,000 yen, and sell titles for a couple of thousand yen each. -Iwata
I think the price may go up with a new interest in competing on the tech side. Either that, or they may decide on a plan similar to phones in which a consumer recieves expensive tech for a low upfront with a subscription to nintendo's answer to Playstation+...

Either way, I think that whatever we see next from Nintendo will be something we've never seen them do before.
 

Log4Girlz

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I'm not so sure about that.



I think the price may go up with a new interest in competing on the tech side. Either that, or they may decide on a plan similar to phones in which a consumer recieves expensive tech for a low upfront with a subscription to nintendo's answer to Playstation+...

Either way, I don't think that whatever we see from nintendo next will be something we've ever seen them do before.
When stating they have to reevaluate charging those prices, I don't think he's implying going for more expensive hardware. I mean, in the end its all about value proposition. Its more difficult to make a case for the purchase of a Nintendo console if it is expensive.

Many years ago Miyamoto expressed that he once thought they should make a console for like $99. So I expect they may go very cheap and maybe even go for an Ouya-like device sharing handheld technology.
 

Nostremitus

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When stating they have to reevaluate charging those prices, I don't think he's implying going for more expensive hardware. I mean, in the end its all about value proposition. Its more difficult to make a case for the purchase of a Nintendo console if it is expensive.

Many years ago Miyamoto expressed that he once thought they should make a console for like $99. So I expect they may go very cheap and maybe even go for an Ouya-like device sharing handheld technology.
It's hard to make a case for under-powered expensive hardware. It's easy to make a case for buying hardware that is expensive because it's powerful and warrants the price. By your logic both the PS4 and Xbox One should be flops that aren't selling, that's not the case. These are the current market trends.

These are the trends Iwata says he misread.

I think they'll either go the same route taken by sony and Microsoft, or they''ll go the route taken by Apple. Their "third route" blew up in their face and are making a course correction. It's just too late to change the hardware this gen, but it'll definitely affect their choices while creating their next console. They may choose to go the route taken by Apple for the remainder of this gen in order to offer an appealing price for the Wii U.
 

z0m3le

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Jun 16, 2011
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www.notenoughshaders.com
As poorly as the Wii U is doing, I don't see Nintendo releasing a new console in 2016. For a couple of reasons. It's too soon from the release of the Wii U which is going to REALLY hurt any consumer faith that's left. Second the system would only be 3 years out from the PS4/XB1 and AT LEAST 2 - 3 years AHEAD of any possible PS5/XB2. Which puts them in a similar problem as now and with the Wii. They end up with a mid generation system that isn't enough of a boost to run last gen games a step ahead, but then not strong enough for getting next gen down ports.

They would be smarter to listen to the market, work with AMD, but plan on launching their next home console system closer to the PS5/XB2 with specs more inline with those systems.

I do think if they go with a unified architecture they could better support a home and handheld console launch.
That would just leave them where they are now with 3rd parties, if you think asking developers to support a third console is hard, realize that actually isn't what Nintendo is asking developers even with the Wii U. They are asking developers to support a 5th, 6th if you count PC.

Coming out as ps3 and xb360 leave the market, catches developers with extra teams and the resources to support your system as a true 3rd console. Being 2 or 3 years ahead of PS5 is actually a huge benefit because it will always be seen as a last Gen system unless it's dead last.

Also while they won't be able to put too much distance between the ps4 and themselves, getting the chips at a lower process node should allow higher clocks on top of possibly more shaders. My belief is that Nintendo will take advantage of their stock holders wanting change, to remake themselves as they know the Wii train leads to a ghost town.

My guess for the gpu is at least 1280 shaders at 1ghz, for 2.560 Tflops. The CPU could be pretty much anything from AMD they only need to make sure HSA is a thing. Something like that would be fine to push along side PS4 even at the same price. (I imagine 299 in 2016) the big thing Nintendo needs to do here though is make sure that they multiport their Wii U titles from the end of 2016 and give it BC with an espresso chip. Which takes your nnid and let's you download your titles you've bought to it. You don't need the gamepad, just make it compatible with it and sell it as a Wii U accessory.
 

Shin Johnpv

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Investors are already giving them shit about lowered profits. They will not sit idly by for years. 3DS isn't going to suddenly become a cash cow and float their entire business.
You take a loss for a bit and use the reserves you have to avoid repeating the same mistake.


That would just leave them where they are now with 3rd parties, if you think asking developers to support a third console is hard, realize that actually isn't what Nintendo is asking developers even with the Wii U. They are asking developers to support a 5th, 6th if you count PC.
I never said asking developers to support a 3rd console is hard. I never even brought in amount of consoles supported. WHAT I SAID WAS, that releasing a console 2 - 3 years before the competition will put them in the same situation as the Wii U. Hardware wise they'll have a platform that is only marginally better than the current gen, and missing features, and no where NEAR the competition for next gen. Which leaves them in the same nebulous position the Wii U is in. Where they get a few last gen ports, and then are ignored once things go full on Next gen. Where as if they WAIT and match the PS5/XB2 then developers wouldn't be able to use the excuse of missing feature sets, or lack of power as a reason to ignore it.

Coming out as ps3 and xb360 leave the market, catches developers with extra teams and the resources to support your system as a true 3rd console. Being 2 or 3 years ahead of PS5 is actually a huge benefit because it will always be seen as a last Gen system unless it's dead last.
Why would you want this? It's like people are learning nothing from past mistakes. The reasons they've had problems is because it's seen as a last gen system. They're not going to replace the Wii U and compete with the Xbox 1 and PS4 again. This generation is not the time for that. They need to look to the next gen, and competing with the PS5 and Xbox 2. Releasing a last gen system to compete with them gets them right back where the fuck they are with the Wii U.

Also while they won't be able to put too much distance between the ps4 and themselves, getting the chips at a lower process node should allow higher clocks on top of possibly more shaders. My belief is that Nintendo will take advantage of their stock holders wanting change, to remake themselves as they know the Wii train leads to a ghost town.

My guess for the gpu is at least 1280 shaders at 1ghz, for 2.560 Tflops. The CPU could be pretty much anything from AMD they only need to make sure HSA is a thing. Something like that would be fine to push along side PS4 even at the same price. (I imagine 299 in 2016) the big thing Nintendo needs to do here though is make sure that they multiport their Wii U titles from the end of 2016 and give it BC with an espresso chip. Which takes your nnid and let's you download your titles you've bought to it. You don't need the gamepad, just make it compatible with it and sell it as a Wii U accessory.
No, this is a terrible idea. You're going to do damage to the fanbase. No one wants to drop a few hundred dollars on a system that's replaced in 4 years to compete with the same systems the old one was competing with.

This is an AWFUL business strategy, and nets you maybe a FEW years of profit, while doing long term damage.

You're basically advocating Pachter's stupid Wii HD system.
 

Apophis2036

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Nov 20, 2011
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I think the low power consumption focus they have been so focused on is over. Iwata's biggest comment last week IMO, was that they misread the market and that they need to pay closer attention to trends. (Those two game related trends are mobile and PS4's success, and maybe VR) Wii U's architecture could work, to both be scaled up and down, but considering Wsippel's info, I think we are looking at AMD offering SoC for both, and I do think they will do both through AMD, which will make their VC emulation far simpler, their BC can still be possible with a small co processor and most importantly, their APIs can be identical across the board.

Having different hardware, APIs usually have to be pretty high level, (IE not close to the metal at all) but with AMD GPUs in both, you'd have virtually the same APIs possible. (this is my understanding of how it works, so feel free to correct me if you KNOW better)

ARM CPU (from AMD) could work for both platforms honestly, but if they come in by 2016, using X86 would be far better for catching PS4 devs as they are dropping 360/PS3 development.

2015 will likely see the last major support for those previous consoles, so giving developers dev kits in 2015 for a launch in late 2016 or early 2017 would be ideal for them, especially if it's basically a PS4 in architecture, and I'd just use mantle at this point, to further stress that this is open for developers.

PS4 and XB1 won't have refreshes until 2018 at the earliest, my personal opinion is 2019 for PS5 is most likely, unless their hand is forced.
It's a blind guess trying to figure out what Iwata meant last week by saying he misread the market and that they were going to restructure the company. It could mean they will again go head to head with Sony on power or it might mean the opposite with an extremely weak $99 system.

Time will tell...

Personally I would love a PS4 like system in power to be released by Winter 2016. It would give third parties as little reason as possible not to do ports for it and by arriving in late 2016 would still give WiiU a four year life cycle.

I wonder how low they could go with the price by late 2016 with regards to PS4 like power, maybe $199 at launch ?.
 

Shin Johnpv

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Really people? How do you not see history repeating itself with a PS4 clone in 2016? I can not understand how people think this is anything even remotely like a good idea. By late 2016 early 2017 developers and people are going to be looking to the PS5/Xb2 and what they're going to be about. Come late 2017 and early 2018 that is where most new development will be headed. A PS4 clone in 2016 is EXACTLY what they did with the Wii U. It's an exact fucking repeat of the Wii U.
 

tipoo

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Nov 20, 2012
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Many years ago Miyamoto expressed that he once thought they should make a console for like $99. So I expect they may go very cheap and maybe even go for an Ouya-like device sharing handheld technology.
This was back before they made the Gamecube. They've probably long since abandoned that goal.
 

wsippel

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May 25, 2006
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Really people? How do you not see history repeating itself with a PS4 clone in 2016? I can not understand how people think this is anything even remotely like a good idea. By late 2016 early 2017 developers and people are going to be looking to the PS5/Xb2 and what they're going to be about. Come late 2017 and early 2018 that is where most new development will be headed. A PS4 clone in 2016 is EXACTLY what they did with the Wii U. It's an exact fucking repeat of the Wii U.
Right, and that's why I expect them to go in the opposite direction. They'll partner with a company like Qualcomm, select one of their SoCs, modify it according to their requirements (remove 4G/ LTE, camera and sensor modules, media encoders, GPS and such) commission two different variants (low power for handhelds, high performance for consoles), and ship two systems using the exact same architecture, same OS, same middleware and all at very low price points. Games might or might not be compatible between the two.
 

krizzx

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Sep 22, 2012
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Didn't Iwata just verify that the Wii U is going nowhere and that their upping productions on it?

Well I'm not so sure. Nintendo was surprised that the Deluxe Pack sold better than the Basic. Both PS4 and X1 are selling well at higher prices. Maybe Iwata meant that when he said he misread the western market.
This is more than likely correct, but I foresee the interwebs continuing to make it predominantly an issue of specs regardless of its truth, since that seems to be the only thing common games care about these days.

I think people are reading to far into this though. Its certain that Nintendo is making their next handheld and console, but they will not releases before 2017. Nintendo has never released a hardware earlier than 5 years after its previous one. I don't see that changing.

In the end, this is going to be one more thing that doesn't pan out like people want.

Though on the off chance that Nintendo "does" release a new console sooner, I would much rather they make it vastly stronger than the PS4/Xbox3. We don't need 3 of the same console.
 

ab.aeterno

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Jun 1, 2013
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Didn't Iwata just verify that the Wii U is going nowhere and that their upping productions on it?
Source? Last I heard a couple months ago, they were cutting production, which would make sense given low demand and the high volume in the channels for so long.
 

Fourth Storm

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Feb 17, 2006
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Really people? How do you not see history repeating itself with a PS4 clone in 2016? I can not understand how people think this is anything even remotely like a good idea. By late 2016 early 2017 developers and people are going to be looking to the PS5/Xb2 and what they're going to be about. Come late 2017 and early 2018 that is where most new development will be headed. A PS4 clone in 2016 is EXACTLY what they did with the Wii U. It's an exact fucking repeat of the Wii U.
I'm not sure that it's doable with Nintendo's current trajectory, but I don't think it's a guaranteed doomed scenario. With Wii U, first of all, they launched 7 years after the start of the generation - not 3. Also, in this scenario, the next Nintendo home console would have to use a similar architecture (maybe an APU based on AMD's 2015 line), so there wouldn't be the problems with an altogether different CPU, which cut off some support from the get-go.

This would not produce a "PS4 clone" unless you believe that all that goes into a system design is the internal hardware. Did you know that the Genesis, Neo Geo, and Amiga 500 all used essentially the same CPU design (the Motorola 68000 - learned that from a thread here)? People hardly get those systems mixed up. Same thing goes on today with cell phones. Last year, a large percentage of design wins went to Qualcomm and their Snapdragon line, but the designs and features of those phone are all over the place.

It may be pointless to think ahead further, because the home console space could go any number of places in the next few years. However, if Sony or MS choose to roll out a new system in, say, 2019, Nintendo could wait a year or so and then release a successor, as long as whatever they put out in 2016 didn't break the bank. BC and maybe in forward compatibility would also need to be a part of this plan, so it will benefit them to settle on an architecture that is somewhat future-proof (again, AMD's line seems the obvious choice, but an ARM-based design could work too). They must unify their storefront and have all digital purchases carry over from next gen on. At least here in the U.S., we have seen that consumers have no problem shelling out yearly for electronics, as long as the value is there. Four years is a long time in electronics, and those late adopters wouldn't be expected to upgrade immediately anyway.
 

QaaQer

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Jun 13, 2012
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Many years ago Miyamoto expressed that he once thought they should make a console for like $99. So I expect they may go very cheap and maybe even go for an Ouya-like device sharing handheld technology.
That's my belief. $99 Arm-based home console as third pillar. If it sells well, they will drop the wii u quickly and never release another full-on home console. If it tanks, they will proceed with Wii3.
 

tipoo

Banned
Nov 20, 2012
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That's my belief. $99 Arm-based home console as third pillar. If it sells well, they will drop the wii u quickly and never release another full-on home console. If it tanks, they will proceed with Wii3.
Again, you guys know he mentioned the $99 thing in reference to early planning of the Gamecube, right? I doubt it's a company priority now.

A Vita-TV like thing is a possiblity, but To be $99, it would likely not have a second screen, so no 3DS games, no Wii U games, and I would guess no Next DS games. So this thing would be starting from nothing? Forgive me for being sceptical of them going for that.
 

Wishmaster92

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That's my belief. $99 Arm-based home console as third pillar. If it sells well, they will drop the wii u quickly and never release another full-on home console. If it tanks, they will proceed with Wii3.
Then i hope it tanks to high hell. No powerful/competing hardware = no third party support, and no third party support = The console is dead.
 

QaaQer

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Again, you guys know he mentioned the $99 thing in reference to early planning of the Gamecube, right? I doubt it's a company priority now.

A Vita-TV like thing is a possiblity, but To be $99, it would likely not have a second screen, so no 3DS games, no Wii U games, and I would guess no Next DS games. So this thing would be starting from nothing? Forgive me for being sceptical of them going for that.
Lots of cheap & easy ports from android, ds, 3ds, wii, gamecube, etc. will be made. There would be lots to play. And, as this would share the same architecture as the next handheld, all that work would be transferable to that, ensuring a nice launch lineup for 4DS.
 
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