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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis

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SmokyDave

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And they'd be right to go for a 480p screen (even thought I doubt they'd go for 640x480, silly res in term of dimensions).
I meant to put 800x480 (WVGA). They probably would be 'right' if the priority is to create efficient and cheap hardware.

Ugh, efficient and cheap. How depressing :(
 

SmokyDave

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Ah ah, do you prefer the opposite?
Yup. Gimme the power and I'll happily pay for it (in terms of cash and battery life). I have no use for 'efficient' or 'cheap' when it comes to toys.

Edit: Although I should add that I understand I'm not the target audience for a Nintendo machine, and I don't expect them to push the tech boat out in any way at all.
 

GhostTrick

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I meant to put 800x480 (WVGA). They probably would be 'right' if the priority is to create efficient and cheap hardware.

Ugh, efficient and cheap. How depressing :(


Also waste of power compared to screen density and power. I'm sure you're one of those people wanting a 1080p screen. Huge waste of ressources for what it is. When I compare my 1080p SGS4 screen to my 544p Vita screen, difference is noticeable but definitely not worthy.
 

DrWong

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Yup. Gimme the power and I'll happily pay for it (in terms of cash and battery life). I have no use for 'efficient' or 'cheap' when it comes to toys.

Edit: Although I should add that I understand I'm not the target audience for a Nintendo machine, and I don't expect them to push the tech boat out in any way at all.
I know your preferences (whjo doesn't here ^^), it was just funny to highlight your wording from my pov.
 

SmokyDave

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Also waste of power compared to screen density and power. I'm sure you're one of those people wanting a 1080p screen. Huge waste of ressources for what it is. When I compare my 1080p SGS4 screen to my 544p Vita screen, difference is noticeable but definitely not worthy.
Nah, not 1080p. I think 720p would be a nice compromise for a 5" screen. It's what I'd hope for in a Vita 2 too.

What I don't want is to be able to clearly make out each and every pixel on the screen. That shit kills me after using high PPI screens for years.

I know your preferences (whjo doesn't here ^^), it was just funny to highlight your wording from my pov.
I dig. And yeah, I might've mentioned my Clarkson-esque predeliction for 'POWER' in handhelds once or twice ;)
 

Log4Girlz

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I meant to put 800x480 (WVGA). They probably would be 'right' if the priority is to create efficient and cheap hardware.

Ugh, efficient and cheap. How depressing :(
We are definitely getting that, and probably another PICA chip and not some standard cell phone chip SoC.
 

Hermii

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Not directly related but how has glasses free 3d tech progressed in the recent years? Is it possible that we get a 3d screen with a large viewing angle this time?
 

Ikaruga!

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I want sources. Wsippel also said once, that the WiiU would be more powerful than the PS360 and that was just a bold lie. Or maybe too much wishful thinking? But then again 2016 doesn't sound so far fetched, anyone could've made that up ;)
 

Hermii

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I want sources. Wsippel also said once, that the WiiU would be more powerful than the PS360 and that was just a bold lie. Or maybe too much wishful thinking? But then again 2016 doesn't sound so far fetched, anyone could've made that up ;)
Dont fucking go there.
 

jeffers

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I want sources. Wsippel also said once, that the WiiU would be more powerful than the PS360 and that was just a bold lie. Or maybe too much wishful thinking? But then again 2016 doesn't sound so far fetched, anyone could've made that up ;)
you could just speculate much of what he said. nintendo has a giant r&d department. he also said why no sources.
 

wsippel

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I want sources. Wsippel also said once, that the WiiU would be more powerful than the PS360 and that was just a bold lie. Or maybe too much wishful thinking? But then again 2016 doesn't sound so far fetched, anyone could've made that up ;)
Feel free to report me, I'll gladly share my source with a mod.
 

Jaagen

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BC has always been apart of the equation. I would be legit shocked if they removed it.
But how viable is a two-sreen solution anymore? Aside from a map or inventory, what is the second screen used for?

I think they'll probably make a tablet of some sorts and just "emulate" the two screens like on the 2DS(which is one physical screen)
 

Nostremitus

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But how viable is a two-sreen solution anymore? Aside from a map or inventory, what is the second screen used for?

I think they'll probably make a tablet of some sorts and just "emulate" the two screens like on the 2DS(which is one physical screen)
I'd say very viable. I miss it when playing on systems without a second screen. You mentioned the map and inventory as if they weren't reason enough... If that's all anyone ever does with it, then its existence is justified.

Edit: not a big fan of the tablet idea. I like being able to fold my OG 3DS and fit it in my pocket. Otherwise, it'd have to leave it at home and negate the whole "portable" aspect.
 

Donnie

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We are definitely getting that, and probably another PICA chip and not some standard cell phone chip SoC.
It won't use a Pica chip, as they're going to use the same architecture for both handheld and console this time around and I don't think DMP have a chip that would suit that vision.

I want sources. Wsippel also said once, that the WiiU would be more powerful than the PS360 and that was just a bold lie. Or maybe too much wishful thinking? But then again 2016 doesn't sound so far fetched, anyone could've made that up ;)
Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic, but WiiU is more powerful. Not in raw specs but in what a developer can produce with it if they take the time and effort to do so. I know what you mean though, it was supposed to be more powerful than it ended up. Still nobody's making a claim of power here.
 

wsippel

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It won't use a Pica chip, as they're going to use the same architecture for both handheld and console this time around and I don't think DMP have a chip that would suit that vision.
PICA Extreme - if it still exists, that is. But it wouldn't fit Nintendo's apparent interest in GPGPU stuff.
 

megabytecr

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What if the handheld version was the only physical copy, with any added assets downloaded and installed on the console? Also, no GamePad; the handheld is the GamePad.
I could expect that, or the gamepad is sold separately, and the current gamepad works in the next console.

I can also see them completely dropping the gamepad idea, although they always try to make previous controllers and games work on the new system.
 

Donnie

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PICA Extreme - if it still exists, that is. But it wouldn't fit Nintendo's apparent interest in GPGPU stuff.
PICA Extreme was the only powerful-ish DMP chip I could find mentioned. But Nintendo definitely won't go back to fixed function pipelines now (it is fixed function right?, or was it OpenGL ES 2.0?, can't remember if that was ever clarified). Everything will be programmable unified hardware going forward and I can't see any console level GPU from DMP that offers that.

Plus on the console side Nintendo always seem to go with western hardware.
 

javac

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I don't see how the Wii U proves that Nintendo cheapened out. They just allocated a portion of that budget to other things like the gamepad which lets be honest is a pretty sweet thing for a freaking controller. If they went with a more traditional controller I'm sure that alone would have made it more beefy.

I guess that's the issue then. Lets hope they allocate the budget to the right places. Same thing happened with the 3D screen with the 3DS. No doubt in my mind the screen could have been better if it wasn't for that. i like both the Gamepad and the 3D btw.
 

GhostTrick

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I don't see how the Wii U proves that Nintendo cheapened out. They just allocated a portion of that budget to other things like the gamepad which lets be honest is a pretty sweet thing for a freaking controller. If they went with a more traditional controller I'm sure that alone would have made it more beefy.

I guess that's the issue then. Lets hope they allocate the budget to the right places. Same thing happened with the 3D screen with the 3DS. No doubt in my mind the screen could have been better if it wasn't for that. i like both the Gamepad and the 3D btw.


As I already said, Wii U's main problem isn't that Nintendo wanted to make a not powerfull console, just one that don't eat up much power, and a small one. You can't exactly make miracles with 30W.
 

Donnie

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But do they actually have any really powerful SMAPH-S parts now? Also OpenGL ES 3.0 is below WiiU's GPU functionality in a few key areas. Are they working on OpenGL ES Next GPU's?
 

GhostTrick

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But do they actually have any really powerful SMAPH-S parts? Also OpenGL ES 3.0 is below WiiU's GPU functionality in a few key areas.


According to DMP, SMAPH-S is nicely scalable. So they can choose hom much shaders core they want (maximum amount is 128) or how much core they want.
 

Zornica

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Also waste of power compared to screen density and power. I'm sure you're one of those people wanting a 1080p screen. Huge waste of ressources for what it is. When I compare my 1080p SGS4 screen to my 544p Vita screen, difference is noticeable but definitely not worthy.
yeah this. If taking the screen size into account and how it will be used, there is no reason to go with a ridiculously huge resolution. For a screen with the size of the OG 3ds, they should aim for 480p max. Everything beyond that is just a waste. And I surely don't want a "vita-situation" again, where a hefty chunk of the software can't even support the native resolution properly.
Also I wouldn't want to pay for something that's designed to not be visible (aka retina displays). I'd rather save that power for a longer battery life.

But how viable is a two-sreen solution anymore? Aside from a map or inventory, what is the second screen used for?

I think they'll probably make a tablet of some sorts and just "emulate" the two screens like on the 2DS(which is one physical screen)
I don't think it works that well on the WiiU because the distance between pad and tv is way to big to keep constantly switching between them, on the 3ds (and the next one hopefully) I'd consider it a must. Moving all the HUD elements in both Monster hunter games to the lower screen for example makes them way more enjoyable to me.
 

megabytecr

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If they pick a powerful enough CPU, they can emulate Wii and on down. For WiiU, backwards compatibility would force another tablet controller, I don't think that's a good idea.
I hope they continue to support the gamepad but as an alternative and not forced on each console. I am spoiled with the gamepad enhancements in games.
 

GhostTrick

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yeah this. If taking the screen size into account and how it will be used, there is no reason to go with a ridiculously huge resolution. For a screen with the size of the OG 3ds, they should aim for 480p max. Everything beyond that is just a waste. And I surely don't want a "vita-situation" again, where a hefty chunk of the software can't even support the native resolution properly.
Also I wouldn't want to pay for something that's designed to not be visible (aka retina displays). I'd rather save that power for a longer battery life.



I don't think it works that well on the WiiU because the distance between pad and tv is way to big to keep constantly switching between them, on the 3ds (and the next one hopefully) I'd consider it a must. Moving all the HUD elements in both Monster hunter games to the lower screen for example makes them way more enjoyable to me.




That's the thing I dislike about my Vita: Games that aren't native res...
 

McHuj

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I hope they continue to support the gamepad but as an alternative and not forced on each console. I am spoiled with the gamepad enhancements in games.
Perhaps the next handheld can do double duty. Portable and gamepad for WiiU backwards compatibility when couple with the next console.
 

tipoo

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I'm down with the clean slate idea, for both the systems. I'd gladly sacrifice BC for better hardware.

If they could do emulation in other ways like software or even shrunken versions of the old 3ds chips besides the main ones, that would be sweet, but if its a choice between them, chop the legacy stuff.

x86 is the way forward on consoles, probably ARM but possibly x86 (with semi-custom AMD chips) on mobile.


Shit though, we need to start doing this, this kind of speculation made us think 320 shaders was the absolute worst scenario for the Wii U and ~600 shaders was more likely :p
 

prag16

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If they pick a powerful enough CPU, they can emulate Wii and on down. For WiiU, backwards compatibility would force another tablet controller, I don't think that's a good idea.
Not necessarily. The gamepad (both original and/or an enhanced version of it) could be an optional accessory.
 
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That's the thing I dislike about my Vita: Games that aren't native res...
I wish the Vita was setup just like the Wii U Gamepad. :( I can't adjust very well to the lack of L2/3 & R2/3 buttons, small screen and how uncomfortable it is to hold. Nevermind that the memory stick prices are insane.

Recently, I've been trying to find a nice way to stream game. I've tried the Nvidia Shield, the Vita and even just an Android tablet. The Wii U Gamepad wins every time. I digress though. This thread is about the GPU features and I'm talking about something thinly related, but different enough.

The Wii U is a great and very capable system. Play the games.
 

freezamite

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x86 is the way forward on consoles, probably ARM but possibly x86 (with semi-custom AMD chips) on mobile.
Why is that x86 is the future? What has the instruction set to do with this, except that the x86 is an older ISA and needs extra "instruction decoders" to do what on the PPC is done without them?

Games are programmed on higher languages than assembly nowadays, and Nintendo has all its tool-set optimized towards that certain architecture.
In fact, seeing how low-clocked the Jaguar CPUs are, how long it's pipelines still are, and how limited they also are in terms of instructions issued per clock, a 8 core Espresso would perform better in most situations, except for maybe vector heavy scenarios where an upgrade on the FPU would do wonders (paired singles of 128 bits acting like 4 * 32 bits vectors).
 

joesiv

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Seems that the timing of Nintendo trying to unify thier handheld and home console's lines up pretty well with what AMD/ATI are doing with their GCN and APU's.

I could definitly see the next gen handheld go for something like a set of AMD arm CPU's, maybe 2-4, and a bunch of GCN cores, all down clocked for power savines. Maybe 2-6 GCN cores, so something like a 4-8 compute cores on the handheld, the unified ram, HSA, makes it perfect, maybe 1-2 GB's DDR3 ram?

On the console side, it'd be easy, just scale up everything, go for 4-12 Arm cores, and 10-20 compute cores.

Code would be compatible across both consoles, pretty much scaling back resolution/effects would work for graphic intensive things, and for CPU intensive tasks... well, I don't know, cut framerate in half and reduce NPC's and such??
 

pulsemyne

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PICA Extreme - if it still exists, that is. But it wouldn't fit Nintendo's apparent interest in GPGPU stuff.
It's got to be mullins if it's a portable SoC. The power requirement is spot on. It's a small fanless design and was shown running FIFA 14 at 1080p so it seems to have some nice grunt. It would also mean cross platform software creation would be very easy. Nintendo trust AMD and work well with them. AMD also really want to push their low power SoC's for tablets etc. Obviously Nintendo will demand some tweaks to mullins (which also comes with it's own inbuilt security system, something that nintendo like to use) maybe some fixed functions or some shaders.


Just look at the size of the mullins box. Perfect for a handheld.
 

SerodD

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It's got to be mullins if it's a portable SoC. The power requirement is spot on. It's a small fanless design and was shown running FIFA 14 at 1080p so it seems to have some nice grunt. It would also mean cross platform software creation would be very easy. Nintendo trust AMD and work well with them. AMD also really want to push their low power SoC's for tablets etc. Obviously Nintendo will demand some tweaks to mullins (which also comes with it's own inbuilt security system, something that nintendo like to use) maybe some fixed functions or some shaders.


Just look at the size of the mullins box. Perfect for a handheld.
Oh man that sound perfect for Nintendo, I wonder if they're looking into it.
 

GhostTrick

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It's got to be mullins if it's a portable SoC. The power requirement is spot on. It's a small fanless design and was shown running FIFA 14 at 1080p so it seems to have some nice grunt. It would also mean cross platform software creation would be very easy. Nintendo trust AMD and work well with them. AMD also really want to push their low power SoC's for tablets etc. Obviously Nintendo will demand some tweaks to mullins (which also comes with it's own inbuilt security system, something that nintendo like to use) maybe some fixed functions or some shaders.


Just look at the size of the mullins box. Perfect for a handheld.



Yep. It seems like a perfect candidate... that's why Nintendo won't do it.
 

Wishmaster92

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Clean slate. PowerPC is a dead end.
And thank god. Devote bc to making the console that much more powerful.

It's got to be mullins if it's a portable SoC. The power requirement is spot on. It's a small fanless design and was shown running FIFA 14 at 1080p so it seems to have some nice grunt. It would also mean cross platform software creation would be very easy. Nintendo trust AMD and work well with them. AMD also really want to push their low power SoC's for tablets etc. Obviously Nintendo will demand some tweaks to mullins (which also comes with it's own inbuilt security system, something that nintendo like to use) maybe some fixed functions or some shaders.


Just look at the size of the mullins box. Perfect for a handheld.
This sounds nice and all, but i'm just not gonna get excited for this. Sounds to good to be (Nintendo) true.
 

ohlawd

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Yep. It seems like a perfect candidate... that's why Nintendo won't do it.
that's what I think too. shiiiiiiiit hahah

I'm honestly more worried about them keeping the clamshell design than the power for their next handheld. People like to downplay the bottom screen saying "hurr durr it's only good for the map and inventory" when it's my favorite feature. It's so convenient I can't live without it.
 

pulsemyne

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The mullins box is the one on the right by the way. It may look big but that is because the case contains a 256 gig SSD so it is smaller than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO0IbIiaAVM

Video shows it running FIFA 2014 (was also shown running PES 2013), and it running windows 8.1. The mullins box contained 2 gigs of ram as well.
 

tipoo

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Why is that x86 is the future? What has the instruction set to do with this, except that the x86 is an older ISA and needs extra "instruction decoders" to do what on the PPC is done without them?
For the roadmaps of the chips involved, no the instruction set itself doesn't matter. If AMD were to theoretically build a high performance ARM core with the performance and power draw of its bigger x86 cores, sure, go with that. But the way it stands, most higher wattage cores will still be x86. Plus on an optimization front, being on a common architecture with the others will be advantageous.
Sticking to their PowerPC guns would be an option too, but what is IBM actively developing in this vein? The Espresso is an iteration of an existing core, are they still spitting out new ones? I don't think they are.

It's got to be mullins if it's a portable SoC. The power requirement is spot on. It's a small fanless design and was shown running FIFA 14 at 1080p so it seems to have some nice grunt. It would also mean cross platform software creation would be very easy. Nintendo trust AMD and work well with them. AMD also really want to push their low power SoC's for tablets etc. Obviously Nintendo will demand some tweaks to mullins (which also comes with it's own inbuilt security system, something that nintendo like to use) maybe some fixed functions or some shaders.


Just look at the size of the mullins box. Perfect for a handheld.
Mullins is still aimed mostly at tablets. The NewDS will probably use an SoC aimed at smartphones. Though, they could reduce the clocks of the tablet version.
 

Fourth Storm

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Hmm, it appears as if the assumption of a "unified architecture" may have been premature. I know somebody has mentioned this elsewhere, but I had no idea that Iwata and Miyamoto clarified this themselves shortly after the initial announcement.

Iwata said:
In this sense, what we should be discussing is not cloud gaming but whether dedicated gaming platforms will eventually die out and whether handheld gaming devices and home consoles will one day be unified. Naturally, our stance is that dedicated gaming platforms will not die out and we are determined to create a future where they will not. In terms of our platform integration, as I explained to you a short while ago, we are not saying that we are planning to integrate our platforms into one. What we are saying is that we would like to integrate software development methods, operating systems, and built-in software and software assets for each platform so that we can use them across different machines. This means that if we manage to integrate our platforms successfully, we may in fact be able to make more platforms. At the moment, we only have our current handheld devices and home consoles because if we tried to make more platforms, our development resources would be spread too thinly. The more we can share software across different platforms, the more development resources will be left for something else. Platform integration does not mean creating one type of platform, but the point is that the united method of software development will enable us to share our most precious software assets across different hardware. It is natural that there will be more things that battery-run devices can do thanks to technological advances and game consoles will become more powerful. However, if we try to linearly pursue this direction, software development will become so complicated that we will eventually face a situation where cost recovery becomes a serious issue. Therefore we feel that we are nearing a saturation point in terms of simply improving performance or enhancing graphics. What is far more important for the future of video games is whether we can make new propositions in other aspects and create games out of something that people never expected to see in the form of a game.
Miyamoto goes on to make it even more clear.
Miyamoto said:
As Mr. Iwata just explained, in addition to video game software developers who create actual gameplay, we have staff members who, for example, create development environments, prepare libraries for licensees and make preparations to successfully implement a new CPU. Our platforms after Nintendo DS and Wii have various standard applications with which you can do a lot of things once you buy them. Recently we have found ourselves having more work in development of such preinstalled applications, in addition to the fact that we need more time to develop video game applications. As Wii’s design concept was similar to that of Nintendo GameCube, software developers were able to focus on creating new types of game software applications. On the other hand, when we use a new CPU or a new development environment as we did for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U, it takes a certain amount of time before we can start actual development of games. The integration of our hardware divisions is for the purpose of getting our core developers to work on creating actual entertainment applications, and we are not trying to develop a unified platform.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130131qa/index.html

If I'm reading this right, what we'll be seeing is a unified OS across platforms (such as Android and Windows running on various configurations), some applications which appear on both platforms, and unified dev libraries/environments. But the games will remain distinct for each platform. If anything, this will make it easier for Nintendo to create games using the same assets, but with completely different content/design, such as in NSMB2 and NSMBU.

So whatever they choose for their next portable needn't be suitable for an an eventual upscaled console variant. It sounds like they've chosen a semicustom, possibly North American design. I don't know about AMD given those comments I quoted. It's possible those parts may be too expensive for the type of device Nintendo is trying to make. While I think unified shaders are a given this time, I'd look to SoC providers with the lowest power draws and moderate performance.

As for RAM, lpDDR4 would probably be a good fit, given the timeframe, but you never know. Nintendo could opt for something relatively obscure again. There will probably be some on-chip video memory as well.
 

fred

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I hope they continue to support the gamepad but as an alternative and not forced on each console. I am spoiled with the gamepad enhancements in games.
Yup, me too. Am playing Arkham Origins on the Wii U at the moment and having the map on the GamePad screen at all times is worth its weight in gold. I'm also pretty disappointed that WB Montreal didn't decide to bring all of the GamePad enhancements that Arkham City had to Origins. An odd decision tbh considering that all of the work has been done already and that object oriented programming would make it VERY easy to include. :eek:/
 
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