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[cpp_is_king]

If one thinks instead that using this material to get off to one's pedophilic desires is something that is your choice and is better than therapy, I think that person is disgusting.

Sorry, are there people in this thread who actually think that? (It moves quickly, so forgive me for not having gone over every single post). Like for me, any depiction of actual child abuse / porn / whatever is completely vile to me, I literally get physically sick on the few occasions I've accidentally observed some. And these games, they do like absolutely nothing of the sort to me. I almost don't even view these characters as human.

 

[Mik317]

I could defend Dragons Crown (it's art and exaggerating the style), Killer is Dead (James Bond Spoof), Senran Kagura ( Pervy as fuck and proud..toes the line tho)....

but this?

It is really damn hard to defend. I'm all for liking what you like (I mean I watch Anime and stuff) and freedom of speech and all that..but damn.

I mean I guess the whole slippery slope defense can be used but Mods already said that this was an extreme case.

but dat trailer...what is even.

 

[Mortemis]

You can't be serious

Lol, mac claims another victim.

This guy is legit. Used his work to write a paper about otaku culture as an undergrad.

Yeah, I'm sure he's legit too. I haven't used it on papers, it was definitely an interesting read.

 

[Kalnos]

Remember when it was only Icecream that posted threads about these sorts of 'games' and everyone just posted reaction gifs and 'lol icecream thread'?

It was justified.

 

[Krejlooc]

The point of true journalism is to retain a neutral standpoint while presenting factual information, and any deviation from that sets of automatic alarms in my head, because, believe it or not, sometimes people just do go on the internet and tell lies.

That wasn't journalism, that was an argument put forth by the author. "Here's what I think, I think it because of this, this, this, and this, here are my sources, consider the evidence." It's an argument. Lack of neutrality does not invalidate facts. His article is well sourced. If I say the sky is blue and I hate those who don't believe me, it doesn't make the sky not blue. The guy is pointing out trends, and presenting tons of citation as proof that these trends exist. How he feels about the trends is irrelevant.

The notion that you're arguing that this guy might not be telling the truth because you don't like what he says is absurd.

 

[Rouke]

censorship isn't the greatest evil to the world. it can be bad, but it's not some inherently wrong thing. i'd say there are many worse things, like sexual abuse of underage girls. and by arguing that this one thing is the worst thing to happen does put the person making the argument in the position of saying that censorship is at least worst than the thing being censored, no matter how indefensible it is or should be.

In the realm of art, it's the assassination of ideas. There is nothing worse than the assassination of an idea. Should works like Communist Manifesto be censored because it was radical? I'm not calling this game deep or revolutionary in any way, but censoring the small is a good way to get to bigger ideas. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet instead. Pass it up on the Gamestop shelf. No one ever forced you to buy it. And stop bringing up children. They have nothing to do with this. The developers are adults, the voice actors are adults, the artists are adults. Kids have nothing to do with it.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is offtopic, but I've become increasingly credulous about this 'rational, objective' form of true journalism because a neutral standpoint simply doesn't exist - the simple omission or decision as to what is relevant or irrelevant for an article ensures that the author's viewpoint is always being pushed, no matter what a subject is about or how objective the writing style.

Still, it makes for good looking copy, I'll allow that much.

Bingo. I find its usually used by people trying to go "well I don't care about this, why does anyone else care about this, why are we talking about it even?"

 

[Devolution]

Eh, its not like its hard to see the objectification and oddness. Nothing is really deep seated when it comes to the content and the intention of the content.

Would be a waste of her time.

That's not why I want one.

 

[freenudemacusers]

And I've seen porn of bread and Mountain Dew. If that's not what you're posting and that's not what you're posting about, why would that be an issue?

It's pretty damn obvious when a game deliberately makes its characters into masturbatory material.

i think it's pretty common to play games like monster monpiece and bullet girls for the gameplay and/or collection aspect rather than being distracted by the supposed 'sexualized' characters. it's just an appreciation of the artstyle.

 

[213372bu]

Is difficult to beleieve that you want to have a dialogue when you are keeping doing loaded questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Asking your position of the game and it's material, that I'm clearly not getting as you take two posts to say I don't, is a loaded question? I want to hear your thoughts, not argue that I'm being aggressive because I ask you if the subject of the game is good to you?

In specifics we are talking about this game in which you literally do those things. It isn't loaded, and I actually do want to rationalize why people think drawn material like this is "ok" in any sense.

Sorry, are there people in this thread who actually think that? (It moves quickly, so forgive me for not having gone over every single post). Like for me, any depiction of actual child abuse / porn / whatever is completely vile to me, I literally get physically sick on the few occasions I've accidentally observed some. And these games, they do like absolutely nothing of the sort to me. I almost don't even view these characters as human.

People on here have gone about the vague-round-a-bout way by saying that it is therapeutic and that is "easier" than therapy as it is supposedly hard to get, and can help individuals get over their problems without worry of psychiatrists giving them false ways of alleviation.

Some [banned] posts here are especially bad, to the point of being nearing satire, so I'm not sure if referencing those posts would be accurate.

 

[Dark Schala]

Even sifting through the majority of this thread now, I hate to say it, but I feel like some people are making false equivalencies (ex: using Bioware games as an example when those games typically involve consenting adults who are mostly clothed, whereas the game in question involves content surrounding characters with ambiguous ages which may not sit well with some posters or lurkers), or even judging an entire culture based on one single game that attracted a niche (not a mainstream; niche) audience over there anyway.

I know that there are a lot of people who just want to experience the game because the PSP version apparently has decent mechanics but it sucks that when you want to discuss a game with content that doesn't sit well with people or that people like so much to the point of constantly stating how much they like it, it invites the very same discussion that this thread is currently having (ex: discussion of different types of chronophilia, what kind of censorship is good censorship, etc), and it's semi-related to the game part of the game. In other words, every time a thread for games like these come up, it will go through the same song and dance every single time. I don't necessarily endorse the "no threads about this" stance, but I understand why it's being done based on past experiences and past threads/posts and at least we have an explanation behind it.

I dunno, maybe I'm not really that against it because I've gotten tired of a lot of threads I used to like posting in beginning to focus more on how cute/attractive characters are or game politicking as opposed to the game itself. Or even non-sporting event threads where if a female participant appears onscreen, the reaction is as you'd expect.

Okay, we lured Schala back, everyone can take five now, mission accomplished.

heh, I'm only here because someone told me that the thread was relevant to my interests.

You should join the Quake channel! It's actually moderated during the events and the reason the twitch chat goes on the wayside is because of numerous ban evasions and such that you can't really stop.

Yeah, in hindsight, I should've done that. AGDQ, then.

 

[The Technomancer]

i think it's pretty common to play games like monster monpiece and bullet girls for the gameplay and/or collection aspect rather than being distracted by the supposed 'sexualized' characters. it's just an appreciation of the artstyle.

What does "appreciation of the artstyle" even mean completely divorced from what's being depicted?

 

[Yuuichi]

This is offtopic, but I've become increasingly credulous about this 'rational, objective' form of true journalism because a neutral standpoint simply doesn't exist - the simple omission or decision as to what is relevant or irrelevant for an article ensures that the author's viewpoint is always being pushed, no matter what a subject is about or how objective the writing style.

Still, it makes for good looking copy, I'll allow that much.

Fair enough, but I was mostly distressed by lines like:

"Currently, however, the most conspicuous Japanese culture of otaku and yankii represents value sets with little connection to affluent consumers elsewhere. Most men around the world are not wracked by such deep status insecurity that they want to live in a world where chesty two-dimensional 12 year-old girls grovel at their feet and call them big brother."

From which I'm challenged to see the article benefiting from in any tangible manner, given the first line would have adequately made the point.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

i think it's pretty common to play games like monster monpiece and bullet girls for the gameplay and/or collection aspect rather than being distracted by the supposed 'sexualized' characters. it's just an appreciation of the artstyle.

Seriously, I said it earlier, but the cardgame of Monster Monpiece is a lot of fun!

 

[Settin]

This is offtopic, but I've become increasingly credulous about this 'rational, objective' form of true journalism because a neutral standpoint simply doesn't exist - the simple omission or decision as to what is relevant or irrelevant for an article ensures that the author's viewpoint is always being pushed, no matter what a subject is about or how objective the writing style.

Still, it makes for good looking copy, I'll allow that much.

No one has an objective viewpoint on videogames. Our expectation of the next game will always be shaped by other games we've played.

 

[Krejlooc]

There is nothing worse than the assassination of an idea.

The argument put forth is that sexualization of children is worse than the assassination of an idea. I agree with it.

 

[Infinite]

I never said it wasn't, as it seems well sourced, but the fact his opinions bleed in to the article still harms its professionalism.

To be fair what he's writing there isn't for academia, it's for his website, so the degree of "professionalism" you're looking for won't be found there.

 

[The Technomancer]

Seriously, I said it earlier, but the cardgame of Monster Monpiece is a lot of fun!

And I would love to play it, if I could bring myself to ignore the frankly offensive visual aspects.

 

[Jintor]

No one has an objective viewpoint on videogames. Our expectation of the next game will always be shaped by other games we've played.

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about games, but sure.

 

[Settin]

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about games, but sure.

It's a video games forum, so it's safe to assume that's what you meant.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

This is offtopic, but I've become increasingly credulous about this 'rational, objective' form of true journalism because a neutral standpoint simply doesn't exist - the simple omission or decision as to what is relevant or irrelevant for an article ensures that the author's viewpoint is always being pushed, no matter what a subject is about or how objective the writing style.

Still, it makes for good looking copy, I'll allow that much.

Well, it's all an act, anyway. I've been in the industry for a few years and everyone has an opinion about everything. No one's neutral. The people who are reporting on an Obama event might be super-red Republicans but they're not going to let it show in their reporting.

Until you become a big enough personality, tipping your hand to any opinions just makes the audience distrust you, so you have to stay quiet for your career. I know one reporter who did a story about someone's car getting rammed by someone with an opposing political viewpoint (it was a simple fact-based story) and a group dug up his party affiliation when he registered to vote in 1996 to discredit it.

Basically, people are crazy, reporters want careers, so we all have to do the dance.

 

[cpp_is_king]

The argument put forth is that sexualization of children is worse than the assassination of an idea. I agree with it.

I actually do too, it turns out. And I still don't view these games as sexualization of children.

 

[Yoshi]

Yes, because games that have stories with murder in them are the equivalent to rape and punishment fan service.

What?...

While I'd rather not get raped nor murdered, if I had to choose one of those two crimes against myself, I'd definitely prefer being raped.

I think it is rather strange that a game that has crude rape themes (can't be too explicit, otherwise the game would be banned, wouldn't it?), but games where you need to torture (and kill) someone (GTA5) can be discussed absolutely freely. At least where I live, murdering and toturing are the most severe crimes, so I'd expect games with these topics to be banned first.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Edit: misunderstood

 

[Toxi]

Nope, but gamer ignorance will let them think that

No.

But people will accuse them of it anyway or that "those" games could only possibly appeal to that demographic anyway because that's apparently the only reason anyone would like an anime designed game.

no but you would be surprise at the amount of users that drive-by post and imply that.

Heard it in
1) Persona 4
2) Persona 4 Arena
3) Blazblue
4) Street Fighter
5) Soul Calibur

and plenty of others.

Jesus, it was a rhetorical question. The poster I quoted acted like being anime had something to do with the banning.

 

[Krejlooc]

I actually do too, it turns out. And I still don't view these games as sexualization of children.

Welcome to the minority, then.

 

[MormaPope]

That's not why I want one.

Why do you want her to cover that sorta game then?

If she did an episode dedicated to RapePlay or random hentai games, I don't know what would be argued or what could be said that would carry great importance. The audiences for these games won't be swayed, they're in a tiny minority, shit is weird. Tackling mainstream issues when it comes to women in videogames would seem like a more important goal, as more people can relate or understand the arguments based on the subject matter.

 

[TaiKH92]

I'm far enough down the anime rabbit hole to shrug it off as "not my bag," but I can definitely see why people would be okay with Big Titty Ninjas Being Dumb, but draw the line at a game where, um, well, erotic torture is required to force girls to submit to your orders. And you can't opt out of this if you want the girls to learn new skills and advance through the game.

Criminal Girls is just barely shy of being an outright porno game, and from what I've heard, that was always the intention of its designers. Not actually showing nipples or genitalia isn't the sole definition of what makes something "OK" or "Not OK."

ugh this sounds really awful

 

[Rouke]

The argument put forth is that sexualization of children is worse than the assassination of an idea. I agree with it.

Of course you do, because whatever makes you uncomfortable should be swept away, never should be seen. Let's burn Lolita, too. That sexualizes children too.

 

[Brakke]

This is offtopic, but I've become increasingly credulous about this 'rational, objective' form of true journalism because a neutral standpoint simply doesn't exist - the simple omission or decision as to what is relevant or irrelevant for an article ensures that the author's viewpoint is always being pushed, no matter what a subject is about or how objective the writing style.

Still, it makes for good looking copy, I'll allow that much.

I think you mean "incredulous".

But yes, there's no such thing as objective communication. And like, in this case you figure the viewpoint there is what the author believes now that after having done that research and having had those experiences. An OP-Ed's point is to share that knowledge and those experiences. If they didn't affect the way the author thought or didn't lead them to some understanding, why would they even write?

Of course you do, because whatever makes you uncomfortable should be swept away, never should be seen. Let's burn Lolita, too. That sexualizes children too.

A) You're bad at analogies.
B) I don't think you've read Lolita.
C) Maybe you're talking about the movie.

 

[L Thammy]

i think it's pretty common to play games like monster monpiece and bullet girls for the gameplay and/or collection aspect rather than being distracted by the supposed 'sexualized' characters. it's just an appreciation of the artstyle.

I'm not going to argue against that. That's fine. You can do that without posting images. I even posted about that earlier in the thread.

What I'm wondering is why you've suggested through your posts that a fictional child is capable of giving consent, posting young characters in a non-sexual context is the same as posting them in a sexual one because rule 34, etc. That's when I start to argue with you.

 

[Devolution]

I actually do too, it turns out. And I still don't view these games as sexualization of children.

Congrats on your obliviousness?

 

[Yuuichi]

To be fair what he's writing there isn't for academia, it's for his website, so the degree of "professionalism" you're looking for won't be found there.

I get that, but I guess that having any sort of expectations was a mistake, given that even remotely indicated that I could be "questioning" verity "to a degree" is apparently enough to rabidly set off Krejlooc because he finds my opinion that personal views have no place in an academically styled article offends him.

Edit: And for reference, I liked the article, or whatever term you want to use to describe it.

 

[Jintor]

I think you mean "incredulous".

Hmm... now that I look at it, I don't even know what word I meant to put in there. Could've used another subbing pass.

 

[freenudemacusers]

What does "appreciation of the artstyle" even mean completely divorced from what's being depicted?

line, shading, composition, etc. I find picasso's guernica fairly upsetting in its depiction of violence and war, but I can still appreciate the aesthetics behind the piece. similar situation for these games.

 

[Krejlooc]

Of course you do, because whatever makes you uncomfortable should be swept away, never should be seen. Let's burn Lolita, too. That sexualizes children too.

Yup, that's me, I just cant get enough censorship.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I The developers are adults, the voice actors are adults, the artists are adults. Kids have nothing to do with it.

I don't know about that, don't a lot of young girls basically get roped into the entertainment industry in Japan by being forced into doing really creepy shit? I wouldn't be surprised if there's some poor minors involved in the voice-acting who basically have to do this in order to further their careers.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I could defend Dragons Crown (it's art and exaggerating the style), Killer is Dead (James Bond Spoof), Senran Kagura ( Pervy as fuck and proud..toes the line tho)....

Unless I'm missing something, it's an adult cartoon character with enormous cartoon boobs. Call it pervy, objectification and a bad reflection on the industry all you want, but there shouldn't have to be a defense as to why it exists in the first place or why people can't enjoy it. Even if it boils down to "I find the girls in it hot", if that's what you mean.

Not really comparable to this situation when that was one about the role of women in games.

 

[Yuuichi]

I actually do too, it turns out. And I still don't view these games as sexualization of children.

Tell me then, what do you see? I wish to be enlightened.

 

[Mahonay]

The moderation around here is top notch, especially considering the size of GAF.

If the cost of that is not being able to make threads about exploitive/sleazy/more than questional porn games, I think I can live with that. That's just me, though.

 

[Mortemis]

While I'd rather not get raped nor murdered, if I had to choose one of those two crimes against myself, I'd definitely prefer being raped.

I think it is rather strange that a game that has crude rape themes (can't be too explicit, otherwise the game would be banned, wouldn't it?), but games where you need to torture (and kill) someone (GTA5) can be discussed absolutely freely. At least where I live, murdering and toturing are the most severe crimes, so I'd expect games with these topics to be banned first.

Yo wtf, why would you even bring that up.

Seriously what?

I'm not going to argue against that. That's fine. You can do that without posting images. I even posted about that earlier in the thread.

What I'm wondering is why you've suggested through your posts that a fictional child is capable of giving consent, posting young characters in a non-sexual context is the same as posting them in a sexual one because rule 34, etc. That's when I start to argue with you.

Bro you're being trolled.

 

[The Technomancer]

Of course you do, because whatever makes you uncomfortable should be swept away, never should be seen. Let's burn Lolita, too. That sexualizes children too.

The whole thematic tone of Lolita isn't indulgent. The book isn't about how awesome her relationship is with Humbert and its not inviting the reader to vicariously enjoy their interactions. Depiction is not the same as endorsement, but when things are framed like they are in these sorts of games, where these sexualized child figures are presented as something to be leered over and in the case of Criminal Girls literally abused, its very disturbing.

 

[Neiteio]

Well, it's all an act, anyway. I've been in the industry for a few years and everyone has an opinion about everything. No one's neutral. The people who are reporting on an Obama event might be super-red Republicans but they're not going to let it show in their reporting.

Until you become a big enough personality, tipping your hand to any opinions just makes the audience distrust you, so you have to stay quiet for your career. I know one reporter who did a story about someone's car getting rammed by someone with an opposing political viewpoint (it was a simple fact-based story) and a group dug up his party affiliation when he registered to vote in 1996 to discredit it.

Basically, people are crazy, reporters want careers, so we all have to do the dance.

I've been a reporter for five years myself. Won some SPJ awards on stories about domestic violence and other social issues, etc. You're absolutely right every reporter has an opinion. Sometimes wildly disparate from how they present the story, but like you said, it's all a dance. Jintor is right that no story is truly objective, insofar as judgment calls naturally occur as to what should and should not be omitted.

 

[Ragingnight]

I don't know about that, don't a lot of young girls basically get roped into the entertainment industry in Japan by being forced into doing really creepy shit? I wouldn't be surprised if there's some poor minors involved in the voice-acting who basically have to do this in order to further their careers.

LOL! WHAT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

O god this is too much.

 

[Armaros]

Of course you do, because whatever makes you uncomfortable should be swept away, never should be seen. Let's burn Lolita, too. That sexualizes children too.

"it is art" is not a free pass to do anything you want. Just like 'freedom of speech' is not a free pass to say anything you want without consequences, and other things are that plainly restricted.


Much less on a private forum.

 

[RurouniZel]

Hmm... now that I look at it, I don't even know what word I meant to put in there. Could've used another subbing pass.

"skeptical"?

 

[JDSN]

can moderation construct a table on the allowable degree of sexualization vs apparent age of cast? is hotlinking ok? can we post jpgs and not gifs? mosaic filters over controversial portions of an image?

i just want to stay within these new guidelines.

If you need to ask about a clearly defined line about this kind of situations, there is a good chance you are already way past that line.

well if she agreed to the punishment i don't see the big deal tbh

FUCKING WOW.

 

[kyser73]

The point of true journalism is to retain a neutral standpoint while presenting factual information, and any deviation from that sets of automatic alarms in my head, because, believe it or not, sometimes people just do go on the internet and tell lies.

Really? Go tell that to Robert Fisk and 00s of other campaigning, overtly political journalists that they aren't true to their craft.

 

[L Thammy]

Bro you're being trolled.

I am? I hope so. Man, I should quit this thread.

 

[213372bu]

line, shading, composition, etc. I find picasso's guernica fairly upsetting in its depiction of violence and war, but I can still appreciate the aesthetics behind the piece. similar situation for these games.

Is this satire?

You think that the pedophilia is bad, but you can appreciate it because of the lines, shading, and composition found in the material. You also equate it to Picasso's artworks that criticize and detest war and violence.

Oh boy... I think I might have to abandon.