WickedLaharl
Member
Mr. E. Yis said:
oh man too human cutscenes are the gift that keeps on giving
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Wired play through all of Too Human
- Thread starter RubberJohnny
- Start date
oh man too human cutscenes are the gift that keeps on giving
Catgif=Gif of the year?
Also, as much hate as Too Human is getting, I'm still kind of looking forward to renting for a weekend and playing through it with a friend over a couple of beers. It seems to be a perfect little 10 hour romp. I doubt it will be as bad as everyone is making it seem. Perhaps it will even become a cult favorite around here, kind of a Evil Dead 2 kind of thing where those who went with an open mind were thoroughly entertained, even if the production value wasn't quite there.
Also, as much hate as Too Human is getting, I'm still kind of looking forward to renting for a weekend and playing through it with a friend over a couple of beers. It seems to be a perfect little 10 hour romp. I doubt it will be as bad as everyone is making it seem. Perhaps it will even become a cult favorite around here, kind of a Evil Dead 2 kind of thing where those who went with an open mind were thoroughly entertained, even if the production value wasn't quite there.
Recognised as a design manager, no more, no less. You are guessing what that job involved, including storyline and gameplay. Look, even kittonwy backed off by saying his posts may not be 100% correct, and that he meant form soul reaver onward when he wrote throughout the series. Just let it go man, unless you have some other bits of juicy gossip.Iaido Sword said:
Iaido Sword
Banned
And you're assuming the Dyack speaks the truth after getting axed from his own concept.Bust Nak said:
No doubt there is grudge in there.
Amy Hennig has proven she can make high profile games. Doing both Soul Reavers and Uncharted is remarkable. Dyack's capabilities are being questioned by a lot of us. Jealousy can rear an ugly head.
proposition
Banned
Four years? A game called 'Too Human' has been in development at SK for probably over ten years. And the fact that it has should probably flag up the fact that it's not very good.Mithos Yggdrasill said:
Kill Your Masters
Member
"Real" development probably started 4-5 years ago, its just logical, new hardware, new engines, so I doubt they started 10 years ago with the programing and animations, then ported everything into UE3, just like that.proposition said:
proposition
Banned
That's fair enough.Hellraizer said:
Although looking at the game I wouldn't be surprised if they'd ported the animations from their PS1 version of the game.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Unfortunately, me neither.proposition said:
But looking at the game, and how it looked on the cube, and how it looks now, it went through a lot of development cycles, so thats why I doubt they were consistently working on it for 10 years.
Too Human on Gamecube:
Artistically, the game has changed a lot (IMO)
More cube shots here:
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/015/015333/imgs_1.html
I don't want to judge Denis Dyack's character, I am just going by that 5 year old thread:Iaido Sword said:
Kittonwy looks at the credit concludes that Amy was in intergal part of design and story line throughout the series.
Dyack contradicts him by saying she plays very little part in developing the storyline and gameplay design in Blood Omen.
You then come in and say Kittonwy is "absolutey correct" and point out Dyack is a known liar as prove.
I am telling you that to assume Dyack is not telling the truth by default is unsound logic, and that what he claims (a member from the publisher's side having little input to the design progress of a product) is consistent with my own experience.
Iaido Sword
Banned
Then who's wrong? Because one of them has to be wrong.Bust Nak said:
Dyack's "Amy did little for my game" or Kittonwy's "Amy Hennig's name is in the credits".
Being in the credits completely justifies the work so no one can say they contributed very little.
MaddenNFL64
Member
So, what are you guys expecting for reviews? After these previews, i'm thinking mid 80's overall.
Denis should shut his mouth from now on though. All he does is piss on his companies name. Let your employees create good entertainment without being bogged down by all this bullshit. Shouldn't be about you. I think the crap he takes from everyone is overboard, but he shouldn't reply, and make it even more divisive. Just ignore the bullshit, and you won't have to deal with it, DD.
Denis should shut his mouth from now on though. All he does is piss on his companies name. Let your employees create good entertainment without being bogged down by all this bullshit. Shouldn't be about you. I think the crap he takes from everyone is overboard, but he shouldn't reply, and make it even more divisive. Just ignore the bullshit, and you won't have to deal with it, DD.
Chris Remo
Member
On what basis are you making this claim? Hell, I'm in the credits for Psychonauts and I think some other games like one of the Sam & Maxes, but my role was minor. Sure, Hennig's title is one that implies more involvement, but there's no way for you to have any idea of what that role comprised. Titles in the game industry are not even remotely standardized like they are in Hollywood. Things like "producer," "designer," "manager," and so on, can have a huge range of meanings, especially once you start adding on prefixes and suffixes.Iaido Sword said:
lol. credits mean shit. every one can be credited for anything. no one is legally bound to proof the degree of involvement of anyone. in music, films and games there's always plenty of reasons for people to be credited even though they did (next to) NOTHING. there's people who have deals to be credited as "executive producers" on every record of certain artists even though they contributed nothing, not even money. people get credited as COMPOSERS on records all the time even though they didn't spend more than 10 seconds in the studio. fictional people get credited for all kinds of things all the time. real people get credited for fictional tasks. people get credited as writers when all they contributed was an arbitrary idea that was eventually dropped altogether. credits can be as accurate or as nonsensical as the people involved with the making of the game/movie/song want.Iaido Sword said:
or are you gonna argue that this man's credit in adaptation "justifies his work so no one can say he contributed very little"?
not only that, but even with the standards established in filmmaking there is still no legal obligation to proof anyone's degree of involvement.Chris Remo said:
Kittonwy could well be correct in the end, only SK and Crystal Dynamics members knows the truth. I was just pointing out Kittonwy is an outsider and a job title is not enough to prove one Dyack was lying.Iaido Sword said:
Contributed very little to the storyline and gameplay design. In my experience, a manager/director/producer means different things in different work enviorments. Hiring, doing interviews, liaison between the team and publisher, sorting out bonuses for overtimes, and especially making sure things are delivered on schedule and on budget are all important responsbilities that warrent a full time staff member's complete attention, she also worked on multipule projects in the same time period which does suggest an overseer and not a hands on kind of role.Iaido Sword said:
OnBackOrder
Member
Iaido Sword said:
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about not sure why you continue to comment on the subject when multiple people have pointed out that you're wrong.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
Iaido Sword said:
About the apparent contradiction, what we're saying is that technically the act of one player going into the menus and speccing their character doesn't pause the game (the other player can keep running around and fighting). But you do feel like you should wait and pause your rush forward, since your buddy's avatar is defenseless while he's going through his menus to switch his weapons, armor, skill points, etc.
stephentotilo said:
Yes, yes, all that.
Also, I wrote "Two-player co-op can bog down during these moments, as one waits for the other to futz with the menu screen." That's a "can" not an "always does." It's a minor complaint and I probably bore the brunt of the delay because Mr. Totilo was leveling so quickly and equipping new Spectacular Ivory Pants Of Howling every few minutes.
Duckhuntdog
Member
Usually if you are brought on at the tail end of the project, design is already set in stone. The fact that she was credited as a "manager" should give you a good idea that she had little creative input and more to do with scheduling and making sure design milestones are on track.Iaido Sword said:
Denis is correct on this one. I would look pass Too Human and just accept what Denis has stated as far as who did what on Blood Omen.
Credits in the game industry are not like credits in the film industry, where formal rules exist. I have seen times when people have slaved away on games for 2+ years, get burnt out and leave the company a month before the game ships and have their names REMOVED from the credits completely.
Iaido Sword
Banned
Chris Remo said:
jarosh said:
So are you all trying to discredit Amy Hennig? Sure, you may be in the credits for some minor position, but there was only one design manager for Blood Omen, and not only that, Amy Hennig went on to LEAD Soul Reaver 1 & 2.Bust Nak said:
It's okay if Amy Hennig was a nobody, then she wouldn't have any reputation that she actually does any work, but she was the LEAD for Soul Reaver 1 & 2 and DIRECTED Uncharted which is a triple A title of this gen. For Dyack to come out, bash a Neogaf user, and discredit Amy Hennig saying she did little on the game he lead is an insult to Amy Hennig. Are you guys with him in insulting Amy Hennig and her contributions to this industry?
That's all Kittonwy was doing. Defending a great game designer against one who is proving not so great of a game designer.
stephentotilo said:
To be clear, I didn't say either of you were wrong, but the contradiction came in where Mr. Totilo felt that the wait was fine while Mr. McWhertor felt that the wait could have a negative impact. I recognize that the player's gaming experience can cause a deviation in previews, but right now, I was arguing in this thread about inconsistencies of previews from other sources.Geek said:
You guys hit all the points for the coop and that's always a good thing for a preview. Too Human has a lot of visual flaws that many of us can see from gameplay videos and Mr. McWhertor has pointed it out in his half-a-singleplayer preview (which I hope to see a full one sometime). The thing that bangs me is if the positive preview doesn't even address the negative aspects of the game, and that is what the Penny Arcade preview felt like to me. It didn't even touch on the stiff faced zombie character expression and the terrible animation of practically everything in the game.
One site even put out that Too Human is "very visually compelling - easily the best looking Action RPG ever made". I'm sure neither of you would agree with that.
As for the fussing with the menus, many similar RPG games seem to have no problem with it. Using Diablo 2 as an example, upgrade is simply an easy drag and drop from the inventory to the character screen which takes an upward of a few seconds. Even choosing the skills aren't too hard because the skill tree is laid out well without many branches and is split in three respective categories.
I've only seen Too Human's skill tree without playing it, but if it takes a very long time to look through and pick skills, then Mr. McWhertor's comment about the depth being a negative part may play in it. Perhaps the skill set should be scaled down or streamlined from being too vast and daunting. If they had done something like that, they probably could have incorporated 4 player coop that everyone would rather have.
So all previews should address ALL negative aspects of a game, even if those aspects don't mean anything to the person doing the preview?
Let's face it. Bad animation is fun to rip on in gameplay vids and trailers. But I've never disliked a game because of its animation. Good animation is a bonus, not a necessity. Have you ever seen a game docked points because of bad animation? It's ludicrous.
Micromegas
Member
That Benny Hill music. 
Iaido Sword
Banned
So what would you say if there was a preview that didn't care about the gameplay and only wrote about MGS4's cutscenes? I'm sure you would finally realize why being selectively bias is terrible as being a part of the media.Mifune said:
Oh animation is damn crucial to the game. If your characters movement, attacks, and all his abilities are not animated well, then you don't enjoy it (unless you're being selectively bias). The immersion that a player gets when he/she sees the character doing really proper sword attacks and the enemies dying in wicked ways is satisfying. Right now, it looks like Baldur is flailing his sword about with no sense of composure or form of any kind of swordfighting in history and enemies look like they just seize up as they get hit. Have you seen the air juggles? The robots just straighten out stiff as they get slashed several times. That is definitely a lazy animation job. Even Dynasty Warriors has more proper attack animations that is extremely satisfying.
Crayon said:
How do I have low standards for animation? Because I place gameplay above them?
As for Iaido Sword, I would much rather hear about how the game plays in a preview than about the animation which can be readily seen all over the web.
Also, Heavenly Sword had gorgeous animation. While I liked the game, the animation didn't help me feel more immersed in the action by any means.
you just don't get it, do you? no one is trying to discredit amy hennig. i don't even know what all this talk is about. also, you should have quoted my whole post, or did you conveniently skip the first part?Iaido Sword said:
look, it's simple: credits don't mean SHIT. it's barely acceptable to cite arbitrary names from credits as your source in any kind of argument. and if a developer steps up and tells you that so-and-so wasn't actually involved in <random task> you look pretty damn silly if you keep insisting that so-and-so played a major role in <random task>, based on the person's name on a goddamn list - for crying out loud! how naive are you?
let's look at the two sides and their sources/evidence here:
A) has seen so-and-so's name on arbitrary list related to the game, doesn't know so-and-so or ANYONE involved in the development of the game, doesn't know ANYTHING except that so-and-so's name is on a list
B) has WORKED on the game, alongside so-and-so, KNOWS so-and-so, KNOWS everyone who WORKED on the game
so, objectively, which person's statement would you trust more?
Crayon said:
Are dungeon-crawlers fans included in "everybody"? Because saying TH has bad animation for a dungeon-crawler is unfair. And saying it has bad animation compared to most hack'n'slashers is also unfair seeing as how in TH you are supposed to be doing stuff you wouldn't normally do in a hack'n'slasher in terms of movement.
I don't feel the animation is awesome. But it certainly isn't terrible either. I mean, the actual animation is pretty good in terms of most of Baldur's fighting movements - it was all motion captured after all.
Hypno Funk
Member
Fact of the matter is, Denis Dyack is the face of Too Human, and is the person everyone will reference in regards to this game.
I personally feel that this game won't be that good from what i've seen, hopefully i'm proven wrong, but if the game is a total bomb, or a smash hit, Dyack will pick up the credit.
Amy Hennig has nothing to worry about currently, she's proven herself to be a great director, but for Dyack, it's make or break, and time for him to live up to the promises that he's been making for so long.
On a side note, I feel if this wasn't a 360 exclusive it wouldn't be getting all the attention it has, if this was a PC game it wouldn't stand up too well to any of the other dungeon-crawlers out there.
It's simply a genre console owners aren't familiar with, in a world where console games must carry the production values and polish, Too Human just seems too rough around the edges to hold any real promise.
I personally feel that this game won't be that good from what i've seen, hopefully i'm proven wrong, but if the game is a total bomb, or a smash hit, Dyack will pick up the credit.
Amy Hennig has nothing to worry about currently, she's proven herself to be a great director, but for Dyack, it's make or break, and time for him to live up to the promises that he's been making for so long.
On a side note, I feel if this wasn't a 360 exclusive it wouldn't be getting all the attention it has, if this was a PC game it wouldn't stand up too well to any of the other dungeon-crawlers out there.
It's simply a genre console owners aren't familiar with, in a world where console games must carry the production values and polish, Too Human just seems too rough around the edges to hold any real promise.
Iaido Sword
Banned
If the animation didn't make you feel immersed into the action, you need something checked because you're telling me that G-Man with flailing arms and bumping enemies over would give you the same satisfaction as Kratos ripping apart an ogre in half.Mifune said:
I shortened the quote to not fill my post with just quotes. I see no problem with that.jarosh said:
As for the point A of your argument, do you know Amy Hennig knows no one in the Blood Omen production team? In fact, there are a lot of names in the Blood Omen team that are in the Soul Reaver team. It could quite well be that both people are in your B category.
Then it comes down to the reputation. Amy Hennig's reptutation exceeds a lot of leads while Dyack has Blood Omen and Eternal Darkness under his belt. EAD is hit miss because I sure didn't really enjoy it, and Twin Snakes is apparently pretty much completed and a lot of it worked on by Konami, so that doesn't count. Which of those reputations do I trust more?
Kobun Heat
Member
So I know this thread is a big pile of retarded right now, but Tycho and I played some co-op and my impressions are up now:
http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/elf-serving-and.html
http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/elf-serving-and.html
Iaido Sword said:
I'm not saying that at all.
READ WHAT I WROTE.
And I'm not sure why you're bringing Kratos into the discussion, but I'll play along. God of War is an exceptionally fine-tuned game in the gameplay department. Yeah the animation is good. But I really don't think it's the animation that makes God of War so immersive. It definitely helps but it's not the deal breaker.
Conversely, would Kratos with Baldur's animation make for a less immersive game? Without a doubt. Would it kill the immersion factor? I really don't think so. But then comparing the two games is a fool's enterprise in the first place.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Thanks.Kobun Heat said:
Iaido Sword said:
Jesus christ, you are slow as shit.
Did Amy Henning even post in that thread? Did she came out saying how what Denis had said was bullshit?
As far as i can tell this is a what Denis said and what Kittonwy said right? If so, why are you throwing around the reputation of Amy Henning????
My gawd, you make a dude wanna choke a puppy.
ToyMachine228
Member
I don't know if you guys have noticed but...Too Human is going to be a love it or hate it game. As it already is. Does it look like there have been technical problems in development, and will there likely be some technical problems in the final version? Yes probably. Does that mean Too Human will suck? Not at all. I personally think it's going to be an awesome game, with a few technical problems. For me, the biggest draw is the online co-op, character building, item farming, etc. We don't get games like this on consoles very often and I'm really looking forward to it.
Also just read Kobun's impressions. The online experience sounds really user friendly. Always a good thing.
Also just read Kobun's impressions. The online experience sounds really user friendly. Always a good thing.
Crayon
Member
Endow said:
Are you puting the cut scenes aside? I assume you are because those are really "terrible". They are extraordinarily bad.
The animation during gameplay also sucks, but at least is comparable to other notable games. For pur dungeon crawling: Baldurs Gate, DA has animation on par with this game it seems. I'd give BGDA the edge. And you said that this game is trying to do thing you wouldn't normally in hack n slash. That's too bad because Devil May Cry 1 shames too human.
Too Human is supposedly the best of the current gen. The animation overall is terrible. It's average at best (not 7.0 average... 5.0 average) in gameplay and it's bewilderingly bad in the cutscenes.
The only way you can say the overall animation in this game is even "average" is to hold it to some low standards.
And remember... It would be one thing if the animation was the only thing on trial here!