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Wired play through all of Too Human
- Thread starter RubberJohnny
- Start date
Crayon
Member
Mifune said:
I'll pinch for him.
Animation is really important.
Advances in animation have consistantly made new types of gameplay viable and have even been known to make old gametypes seem new again.
Animation is the flipside of control... and I don't think you'd try to downplay the importance of control.
^^^ I think you already know these things and perhaps you were just shooting from the hip before. Really, no offense just think about it. Would you want a game designer who didn't believe in the things above? That animation should be a priority?*
*if anyone points out Nectaris or some shit like that they go on ignore. I'm talking about the control of realtime character of course. From Pac Man to Lara.
Crayon said:
Well the fun people had with the game sure isn't on trial, or the story or the RPG depth.
As for DMC1 I think you missed my point. It's because it's trying to do things you wouldn't normally see in a hack'n'slash that it can't have the same attention to detail in terms of animation that DMC1 does.
As for the animation in the cutscenes, other than the scene with Hermod, I don't know what you're considering "terrible". Is the bar scene, for example, something you wouldn't see in any other game this generation?
Also you said "Too Human is supposedly the best of the current gen". Were these your expectations? What are you comparing it too, and what did you based yourself on to say such a thing? Not Dyack or anyone from SK, surely, since they never said such a thing.
Crayon
Member
Endow said:
A I believe all of those things are hotly contested.
B No I didn't miss your point. Is it a dungeon hack or is it an action game? It can't keep hiding behind one or the other. The fact is that even when you compare it with a pure traditional dungeon crawl form last gen the animation is par. Much less Devil May Cry 1... a pure action game albeit a first gen PS2 one.
C The Animation for the cutscenes (as well as the camerawork) was aweful thru and thru. I am not sure how you are missing this. There was even a great post by a profssional animator several pages back explaining why a particular scene (gold guy skating) was actually sub-amateur.
D Denis Dyack.
CitizenCope
Member
As a whole the previews are positive. Why all the hate in this thread?
It's getting silly now.
Lock it, or are people eating this shit up?
At least the Haze threads were largely based on site/mag reviews and gamer playthroughs.
It's getting silly now.
Lock it, or are people eating this shit up?
At least the Haze threads were largely based on site/mag reviews and gamer playthroughs.
Crayon said:
A I've read 5 previews and none of them said that those elements were bad. Fun is subjective but at least half of those previews' authors mentioned that they had fun with the game.
B It's is both, to a degree.It's tackling too different things and as such can't be expected to top Diablo on the dungeon-crawling front, and DMC on the hack'n'slash front. Oh, and having the animation quality of DMC1 is still good these days. Not great, good.
C yet, I'm asking for your opinion and your reasoning. I gave the example of the bar scene. Surely if the animation is terrible thru and thru, then it's also terrible in that scene. And I'm really not seeing it. Is it the way he grabs the bearded guy by his throat? The way he enters the bar? Is it the way he draws his sword? Is it anything you wouldn't see in most titles this generation? Because, don't misinterpret me, I'm not saying the animation is somehow great.
D Could you point me out in the direction of the podcast or article where he said that, then, please?
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
Combine said:
They're fine. They get the job done. You won't be buying this game for the cutscenes as you might for an Metal Gear Solid game.
Like many of you I thought Too Human was going to be a story game, and that I was going to like or or dislike it based on the story and how well it was told. I've played four hours of it and I am confident that we would be best to think of it as a gameplay game and that we'll all like or dislike it based on its style of play.
So.... until you play the game yourself you're going to have a really hard time judging whether or not this one's for you.
Chris Remo
Member
I liked this thread better when it was hilarious
No I am trying to discredit you, because you use dodgy tactics and wonky logic in a debate; you keep trying to twist the topic into something it's not, with you standing up to us bullies who are picking on Amy Hennig.Iaido Sword said:
Good for her, but if she wasn't involved heavily with the design and storyline, then Dyack is right to point it out when Kittonwy states otherwise. It's pretty clear she was not involved with the story writing in the original game.Iaido Sword said:
Her reputation is not being questioned - not being responsible for the story and gameplay for Blood Omen is hardly a blight on her career.Iaido Sword said:
A question was asked in the OP, did Amy write the stroy, Dyack answered no, then added she also had little input to the design. You concluded Dyack must be lying because he has a certain reputation, and that Amy was in charge of Soul Reaver she must have designed Blood Omen too. Afterall, gameplay designers are always credited as "design managers," right?Iaido Sword said:
Amy didn't need to be defended if no wrong was committed, and Kittonwy doesn't need to be defended by you now because he already conceded that he was not talking about the original Blood Omen.Iaido Sword said:
Kobun Heat
Member
Bingo. Eternal Darkness -- whatever you think of it, it had a big, expansive story, and there was every reason to believe Too Human was the same way. Finding out that it wasn't (by way of the credits rolling when I thought I was maybe halfway through) was a shock.stephentotilo said:
That said, it's just as Mr. Totilo says -- the cut-scenes are just fine. No, they're not anything mind-blowing, but they're well-directed and occasionally awesome. Some of the supporting characters are lots of fun.
Broseybrose
Member
guys, quit posting! im trying to read this whole thread (i cant believe i missed it - those gifs made me laugh so hard) and everytime i finish a page, i see a new page has been added! so gimme like 30 minutes to catch up ok?
Broseybrose
Member
wow, i didnt expect that to actually work... thanks guys 
my opinion after all of this- the game doesnt look so hot, it never really did but now that people are playing it and there are vids available for viewing there's a lot more evidence to base an opinion on.
and as for the question that was asked so many times throughout this thread, "why all the gaf hate for this game?"... i truly believe mr dyack brought that on himself with that ridiculous thread where he told us gamers/posters to "put up or shut up". those are fighting words, and i think it was incredibly stupid of him to do that considering just how mediocre - actually, the intro movie is as ridiculous as the legendary mk4 jax ending - his game looks.
i also want to thank the gaf photoshoppers/gif-makers for providing me with such golden entertainment. carry on as before
edit- dyack is on 1up yours available for listening right now: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://download.gamevideos.com/Podcasts/070308.mp3
my opinion after all of this- the game doesnt look so hot, it never really did but now that people are playing it and there are vids available for viewing there's a lot more evidence to base an opinion on.
and as for the question that was asked so many times throughout this thread, "why all the gaf hate for this game?"... i truly believe mr dyack brought that on himself with that ridiculous thread where he told us gamers/posters to "put up or shut up". those are fighting words, and i think it was incredibly stupid of him to do that considering just how mediocre - actually, the intro movie is as ridiculous as the legendary mk4 jax ending - his game looks.
i also want to thank the gaf photoshoppers/gif-makers for providing me with such golden entertainment. carry on as before
edit- dyack is on 1up yours available for listening right now: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://download.gamevideos.com/Podcasts/070308.mp3
Iaido Sword
Banned
Well time to conjure up this thread as I finished the 1up must listen podcast of the century.
What say you now Bust Nak and others?
Dyack clearly stated that there is bad blood between his company and Crystal Dynamics. There is obviously a conflict of interest coming from Dyack. His words at that time are not trustworthy now that we know there was something going down.
Oh, and Chris Kohler, I don't know how you think the cutscenes are "well-directed and occasionally awesome". There are a lot of problems in the cutscenes.
First, I'll take the points from the gifs GAF made because Dyack thinks they're making fun of his game, and they are because they're true. The facial animations are stiff. They are so stiff that they don't even look like they can even look anywhere else. The upper body animations have the same problem. Combined, you have the three gifs that we enjoy making fun of. First, the cat pawing gif versus the scorching head-drill robot is just so wrong. The person, who I assume is Baldur, is trying to do what? He doesn't look like he's trying to punch because his hands are fully extended and swaying at the robot. It doesn't look like it's an intense moment because Baldur's face is frozen in time. You barely see shots of both the robot and Baldur going at it. There is no tension in that scene. They fall through the floor and the tension doesn't even start. I would have taking a wider zoom and see more of the robot going at Baldur, and more of a grimacing face from Baldur while having open hands coming out pushing the robot away.
Next, the gold man who floats. You see no vertical movement. The soldiers in the background don't show any upper body movement. They are floating. It's called perspective and SK has lost it. You need to show the movement or at least the feet showing movement. You need to show where your characters exit instead of a still of some guy floating across the screen, and then through a door of light in the next scene. There is no direction in that scene. One more thing I have to point out before I move on is that you don't even see that giant hound really bite anyone. The one time it did bite, the camera so happen to look the other way. That's really convenient. I also thought that hounds snap rather than slowly bring their mouth down on its victim. SK really need to get a dog and use it as reference.
Then we have good ol' sword action going on. Baldur has his sword in the ground and heads for his target. Epic, but not really. No upper body movement again. He doesn't look like he's running, and as one GAF poster had said, he's slipping. One gripe of mine is who thought it was a good idea to shove the sword into the ground to go after the bad guy. It suppose to generate an increase force as it breaks away from the ground to do a bigger sword impact, but he doesn't even do it. All it did was slow him down and make pretty sparks.
I really like bullet time. I really do, but use it right. I understand the need to show the materialization of the gun, but the part where he shoots does not need to be slowed down. It just brought an unnecessary boredom to the cutscene.
Great, now we have covered the cutscene and I'll talk about my issue as I see it in the gameplay video. The sword swinging animation is terrible. It shows no sense of form what so ever. A sword swing has three parts: the initial stance, the swing, and the recovery. The sword animation looks like he's just flailing his sword about with no form of stance and no show of any kind of recovery for a follow up swing. If I swing down, I need to set my form up to swing the sword up.
I'm calling Dynasty Warriors 1 having better melee animation than Too Human.
I just don't understand it how you previewers are somewhat taking a blind eye to it. Standards are set up by other developers and the criteria does rise. Too Human, in many eyes, does not pass as satisfying animation. For myself, and I'm only speaking for myself because I know some people don't care about the game as a whole, I do feel that the animation is an important part of the fighting satisfaction. If I'm doing something cool, it better look cool or I would be very displeased.
I hope you're listening Dyack. If you're bluffing about your "preview builds" and that these things would get fixed or whatever, the gamers are not going to be happy.
What say you now Bust Nak and others?
Dyack clearly stated that there is bad blood between his company and Crystal Dynamics. There is obviously a conflict of interest coming from Dyack. His words at that time are not trustworthy now that we know there was something going down.
Oh, and Chris Kohler, I don't know how you think the cutscenes are "well-directed and occasionally awesome". There are a lot of problems in the cutscenes.
First, I'll take the points from the gifs GAF made because Dyack thinks they're making fun of his game, and they are because they're true. The facial animations are stiff. They are so stiff that they don't even look like they can even look anywhere else. The upper body animations have the same problem. Combined, you have the three gifs that we enjoy making fun of. First, the cat pawing gif versus the scorching head-drill robot is just so wrong. The person, who I assume is Baldur, is trying to do what? He doesn't look like he's trying to punch because his hands are fully extended and swaying at the robot. It doesn't look like it's an intense moment because Baldur's face is frozen in time. You barely see shots of both the robot and Baldur going at it. There is no tension in that scene. They fall through the floor and the tension doesn't even start. I would have taking a wider zoom and see more of the robot going at Baldur, and more of a grimacing face from Baldur while having open hands coming out pushing the robot away.
Next, the gold man who floats. You see no vertical movement. The soldiers in the background don't show any upper body movement. They are floating. It's called perspective and SK has lost it. You need to show the movement or at least the feet showing movement. You need to show where your characters exit instead of a still of some guy floating across the screen, and then through a door of light in the next scene. There is no direction in that scene. One more thing I have to point out before I move on is that you don't even see that giant hound really bite anyone. The one time it did bite, the camera so happen to look the other way. That's really convenient. I also thought that hounds snap rather than slowly bring their mouth down on its victim. SK really need to get a dog and use it as reference.
Then we have good ol' sword action going on. Baldur has his sword in the ground and heads for his target. Epic, but not really. No upper body movement again. He doesn't look like he's running, and as one GAF poster had said, he's slipping. One gripe of mine is who thought it was a good idea to shove the sword into the ground to go after the bad guy. It suppose to generate an increase force as it breaks away from the ground to do a bigger sword impact, but he doesn't even do it. All it did was slow him down and make pretty sparks.
I really like bullet time. I really do, but use it right. I understand the need to show the materialization of the gun, but the part where he shoots does not need to be slowed down. It just brought an unnecessary boredom to the cutscene.
Great, now we have covered the cutscene and I'll talk about my issue as I see it in the gameplay video. The sword swinging animation is terrible. It shows no sense of form what so ever. A sword swing has three parts: the initial stance, the swing, and the recovery. The sword animation looks like he's just flailing his sword about with no form of stance and no show of any kind of recovery for a follow up swing. If I swing down, I need to set my form up to swing the sword up.
I'm calling Dynasty Warriors 1 having better melee animation than Too Human.
I just don't understand it how you previewers are somewhat taking a blind eye to it. Standards are set up by other developers and the criteria does rise. Too Human, in many eyes, does not pass as satisfying animation. For myself, and I'm only speaking for myself because I know some people don't care about the game as a whole, I do feel that the animation is an important part of the fighting satisfaction. If I'm doing something cool, it better look cool or I would be very displeased.
I hope you're listening Dyack. If you're bluffing about your "preview builds" and that these things would get fixed or whatever, the gamers are not going to be happy.
Iaido Sword said:
Doesn't change a thing, you cannot claim someone's lying based on his credibility alone because that is unsound logic, lets remove all emotional attachment by using this example.
Person A makes claim X about person C
Person B counters claim X
Faulty reasoning: Person B doesn't like person C therefore X must be true.
Do you see how that is unlogical now?
I have already expressed my view of his rant on the other thread, I think he is not doing too human any favours by speaking like that, and I have no interest in purchasing the game, before or after reading about his rant.
Iaido Sword
Banned
It not unsound logic.Bust Nak said:
It's like you're getting the mother of a murderer to testify her child's innocence. It's damn conflict of interest. I figured out there was bad blood between SK and Crystal Dynamics.
Now that you know there's a whole litigation going on, which I figured is what happened from obviously logical reasoning of where the sequels landed, you are going to get the opposite story from the people working at Crystal Dynamics.
It's me that is calling Dyack a liar on that case. It may not be the truth because there may be no truths to it, but it's my opinion to view Dyack with fallacies. Like you, he completely misunderstood Kittonwy's post. Try to read sentences and their separate clauses.
Omar Ismail
Banned
Kobun Heat said:
It's obvious what happened.
SK was all like: Yo Microsoft if you want THE BEST GAME EVAR we gonna have to delay until Spring 2009 ok?
MS was then like: whaaaaat? Mofos you've been sucking us dry and have already been delayed for 2 years. AND you're causing us headaches by fighting with Epic. Homeys get that sh*t out NOW.
Back at silicon knights...
DD: Ok guys, I spent all of MS publishing money on fixing the PR damage I caused and starting lawsuits with Epic for screwing us. What can we do?
Team: 4-player co-op is haaaard
DD: Make it 2 player. It worked for Gears! Those bastards...
Team: the story IS a little long
DD: Let's cut it short. It worked for Halo 2!
ALL: GENIUS!
pedrothelion
Member
Iaido Sword said:
First of all this whole the thing about Crystal Dynamics and SK is both tired and retarded. No body gives a shit except for you aparently.
Secondly I don't know how you can call out people who've actually played the game and some how insinuate that their opinion is not valid or that they are lying just because it does not perfectly align with yours. There is no grand conspiracy and you are not the authority of all thing video games.
Third you are resorting to hyperbole and it's getting absurd. The game does not animate as bad as Dynasty Warriors 1 and it's idiotic to even insinuate that. The animation is not the best, but to say it's at PS2 level is absurd. You may need to go back and play DW 1 again if that's what you think. Also the cut scenes may be amateurishly directed, cliche, and a little cheesy but then again so are most games out there.
Iaido Sword
Banned
Hey, I didn't bring it up. Try reading the entire thread and finding who did. Oh I'll just tell you. It was Denis Dyack.pedrothelion said:
Chris Kohler played the game, but both of us have seen the absolutely same cutscene. All of us had. So our opinions on the cutscene are completely valid. I go on to talk a bit more on the sword melee animations and it is also valid because there are plenty of gameplay videos out there. The difference is that Chris Kohler thinks the cutscene is well directed and sometimes outstanding at parts, but it's obvious the whole thing is a mess which a lot of GAFfers agree that is terrible. That's why you have all these gifs making fun of the cutscene. You can't disapprove that in any way.
I have DW1 and when I continuously slash, I'm satisfied with the way it looks and the way it hits enemies. It's completely stylistic, and the recent DW games have upped the ante making even cooler slash animations for all their characters. I saw the bits on Too Human and I don't see the animations at the level of DW1. Disregard DW1's low poly count and you will see it. I'm also not alone on this. Evilore compared the animation in Too Human to Battle Arena Toshinden. XD
Iaido Sword
Banned
Chris Kohler and everyone else seen the same game intro cutscene.Nif said:
You lack awareness.
pedrothelion
Member
Everyone's opinions are completely valid. That's my point. Not every one agrees with you. Deal with it. Don't insinuate dishonesty or some kind of collision because people don't agree with what you say.Iaido Sword said:
CowboyAstronaut
Banned
Iaido Sword said:
You haven't played the game. You are criticizing the opinions of someone who has as if you are more qualified to speak about the game and all it's aspects than he is.
You are assuming the entire thing is a mess based on what little you choose to bring up seen and not based on all else that has been shown. You're clearly the person lacking awareness here since months ago when Too Human finally re-introduced itself via IGN's big preview, a lot of people were either really impressed with a lot of the cutscenes shown or thought they looked good. Even some of the people in here criticizing it now.
The cutscene between baldur, freya and the norns in cyberspace, the cutscene with Baldur walking to go speak to the guy with the glasses (forgot his damn name) or the cutscene with the head with no body. Or even the cutscene showing the god's getting a briefing on Jormungand.
Most of GAF was impressed with those scenes. So the one who lacks awareness is you. You can go ahead and assume the entirety of the game is a mess when you haven't played it and someone else has, but you'd be doing nothing more than showing your ignorance.
pedrothelion
Member
It's the same scene that was released during e3. It's cheasy, amateurish, and cliche. So are the cut scenes for almost every video game in existence. Why is it so shocking that Too Human would be the same way?Iaido Sword said:
CowboyAstronaut
Banned
pedrothelion said:
I'll have to disagree.
This most certainly isn't true for every video game. A gross misstatement if there ever was one. I'm looking forward to the game so I don't like to be too harsh, but that cutscene needed some major major changes, but I'll live with it.
There was nothing cheesy or amateurish about MGS4's cutscenes and if there was then... please point me to something better. The list of games with incredible cutscenes that look professional and not amateurish stretches around the block multiple times.
Iaido Sword
Banned
I'm talking about the intro cutscene which everyone seen. How much more clearer can I get?
And Combine, my entire post was in direct response to that. Thanks for showing me what I read.
Please say the same thing in the MGS4 thread.
And Combine, my entire post was in direct response to that. Thanks for showing me what I read.
Wow you really need toCowboyAstronaut said:
Please say the same thing in the MGS4 thread.
pedrothelion
Member
There are exceptions to every rule but for the most part IMO most games cut scenes look like they were written and directed by 1st year film students.CowboyAstronaut said:
pedrothelion
Member
But you're saying that some one is wrong who has played the entire game and has not seen just one cut scene like you have.Iaido Sword said:I'm talking about the intro cutscene which everyone seen. How much more clearer can I get?
And Combine, my entire post was in direct response to that. Thanks for showing me what I read.
Wow you really need to
Please say the same thing in the MGS4 thread.
Iaido Sword
Banned
On that one cutscene, then yes, and that's all I'm talking about.pedrothelion said:
If Chris Kohler says the ending is good then I'd have to shut up until I see it; however, the intro is all about showing off your talents to the audience right off the bad to show them you have what it takes to keep them in it. It is the eye candy presentation. It's one of the most important parts of the game and if it remains the same, SK are neglecting the problem and it is a poor game design choice.
pedrothelion
Member
You took that one scene, you painted the entire game with it, and then you insinuated that Kohler lacked journalistic integrity because he had the audacity to disagree with you. That's what you said. Don't deny it.Iaido Sword said:
Iaido Sword
Banned
I don't deny I completely disagree with Chris Kohler's view of the cutscene. I think they're crock - absolutely. I pointed out a lot of fallacies in the intro.pedrothelion said:
The intro for every game paints the quality the player will expect. That's what intros are meant to do. It sets you up for anticipation. The only kind of misleading is if the cutscene is better than the quality of the game; however, it doesn't work the other way around. You don't just purposefully shit on the intro (actually, Dyack might do it as an "experiment) and make the game better.
You have to think of the game design as a whole. All of the parts have to be equally perfect. Blizzard paints their game with the best cinematics in the world and that's how it should be.
A mother's testimonary will stand up in court if that testimonary is not based on her credibility alone. So if she say "I know my son wouldn't hurt a fly" then you would be right to ignore that, if she say "I saw XYZ do it, it wasn't my son" then it would be a valid piece of evidence. Lets simplfy it some more:Iaido Sword said:
Person A makes claims X about Person B
Faulty reasoning: Person A hates person B therefore the opposite of X must be true.
Even if Amy makes an account now and say she did infact write the story to Blood Omen, I could follow your line of reasoning and say "of course she is going to say that, there is bad blood between SK and CD, conflict of interest!" Now do you see why I said it was unsound logic? Of course if that were to happen, we would side with Amy because she haven't been a douche bag making crazy rants about GAF, even if we don't know one way or the other as outsiders.Iaido Sword said:
That's fine. You can call him a liar, and you may well be correct in the end, as long as you accept that it's conjecture and not some kind of universial truth.Iaido Sword said:
I don't see much room for misinterpitation as the sentence in question was pretty short, Kittonwy said "Amy was was the design manager for Blood Omen as well, obviously an integral part of the series throughout in terms of storyline and gameplay design." Then Dyack came in and said not in the original Blood Omen. Later on Kittonwy said he was talking more about Soul Reaver then Blood Omen. Apart from the back and forth bickering, you tell me what I am missing.Iaido Sword said:
Kill Your Masters
Member
Crescendo170
Member
Chris Remo
Member
That's a lot of achievementsBozon said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Hellraizer said:
Sounds good.
Hey PURG3, guess who got his STIMULUS PACKAGE today?
TOO HUMAN CO-OP HI5.
Zenith said:
Translation: because the previews are generally positive, they are meaningless.
Seriously though, knowing Dyack is not a pretense to enjoying SK games (example: Shane seems to get along well with Dyack, but he isn't afraid to say that the drop to 2 player co-op is disappointing for him), if the game was shit in their eyes I am sure they would have no problem expressing that.
Of course, if this is anything more than a baseless conspiracy theory you could provide evidence as to why both those IGN editors are in the palm of Dyack's hand.
Revengeance
Member
I'm pretty sure they didn't stick it on the main site because 1) I think they both work for the Nintendo channel, and 2) the official IGN preview had already been posted. These were just their personal impressions, as people who have actually played the game.Zenith said: