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[Moff]

Is there minorities in the books?

dwarfs and elves are the minorities. the books and the first two witcher games actually deal a lot with racism, but not with human minorities, it's about the dwars and elves, it mirrored a lot of the issues humanity had with racism in the present and the past, and was actually quite well done. it's odd they put that racism line in the trailer for witcher 3, because it's basically a non issue here.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I thought Shawn Elliot's take on this was pretty good.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1smgq9a

 

[szaromir]

So because everyone keeps talking about Slavic mythology without actually researching any Slavic mythology, I decided to buy one of the books mentioned in the Medium post and start reading it.

My immediate impression: Pre-Christian Slavic mythology is extremely fragmented and only has a few sources, many of which are not reliable. Many of the myths' styles depend on region, like most mythology. Much focus is given to ideas of what happens to the soul, as well as respect and worship of the dead. There are lots of supernatural entities that are only felt through their presence in the household, again common in mythology.

Not much that resembles the epic fantasy of the Witcher yet, but I'm literally a dozen pages in so there's more to come.

Well that's because The Witcher is heavily inspired by Tolkien and other fantasy authors that came before it, as well as the legend of King Arthur and knights of the round table (Sapkowski is kind of an expert on the matter). Slavic mythology or Slavic folklore are tertiary or quaternary sources of inspiration, mostly monsters that Geralt slays and not much besides that.

I'd recommend reading Mickiewicz's Ballads and Romances to get a feel of what traditional Polish folk tales were like.

 

[Tallshortman]

And are people seriously using the "historical accuracy" argument in here?

It's a fucking fantasy universe, there's no "history" to adhere to. Furthermore, the notion of an all-white medieval Europe is dubious at best, generally informed by whitewashed Hollywood histories and the like.

lol medieval Europe was indeed vastly white. I mean you had a few middle eastern and north african people, notably from the ottomon empire, living in parts of Eastern and Central Europe, usually in conquered ottomon lands, and and there were "Moors" in Spain before the reconquista forced most of them out. In fact the true rise of the Ottomons beginning with the fall of Constantinople is generally considered the point at which the medival period ends anyway. Besides those tidbits the vast majority of of Europe was white as we identify it now.

 

[plasmawave]

Could you please show me where I discounted his argument? My feelings on his argument should be a mystery to you and everyone else because I never revealed them (quite intentionally, might I add). My problem was with his verbiage. I stopped reading because of what he said, not what he was saying.

How is it not when you just say "this is not worth reading" 1/3 of the way into his post?

 

[tuxfool]

dwarfs and elves are the minorities. the books and the first two witcher games actually deal a lot with racism, but not with human minorities, it's about the dwars and elves, it mirrored a lot of the issues humanity had with racism in the present and the past, and was actually quite well done. it's odd they put that racism line in the trailer for witcher 3, because it's basically a non issue here.

It is there...dotted all over the place in the game.

 

[Bastables]

Yeah, that's hilarious.

Vampires originate from Slavic mythology for instance. And vampires are quite a thing.

Conceptions of Vampiric beings are scattered throughout human cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region

Western aka english speaking conceptions based on Dracula tenuously based on Vlad the impaler are something else. But that's the problem with narrow views of history and human experience, you whitewash the human experience.

 

[BeauRoger]

I thought Shawn Elliot's take on this was pretty good.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1smgq9a

Yep. Some of it mirrors what i wrote a page back or so. These are good points.

 

[squall23]

Is this really a "whitewash" thing? Or would the people critiquing about race diversity in games actually complain about a hypothetical Journey to the West game that has nothing but Chinese, Indians, and demons?

 

[truestatic]

All people are wanting really is fair representation. Not "historically accurate" or "true to the source material" representation, but representation of minorities in a medium that is sorely lacking them outside of offensive stereotypes. I don't think anyone was asking Geralt to be black or be a woman or anything, just that the world present by CDPR reflect the diversity of the video game audience, which is made up of people of all different walks of life.

It's a good feeling seeing yourself represented in media - for example recently the movie Home was a great moment for young African American girls because it was a movie featuring a PoC female lead who had frizzy hair - a trait that is often repressed or seen as "less" by society. A good example of this discrimination could be seen in the Zendaya controversy, wherein she wore dreads to an awards show and mainstream media was using very critical, borderline racist language to describe it just because it deviated from the "white" norm.

I think that fair representation is an important thing, I can't imagine what it must be like to feel constantly denied the opportunity to see your race, culture, gender, or orientation, well represented in the media you consume. It's certainly something Bioware's been striving to address with their latest games. But is that to say that a piece of media that doesn't embody this ideal is flawed or lesser? Is The Witcher a worse game, a worse fiction, for not being a utopian world of diversity and acceptance?

 

[Darksol]

When I think of games that have done a poor job at representing racial issues and racial tensions, The Witcher is not one that comes to mind.

 

[Palette Swap]

The Slavic Mythology angle is a pretty bad one. I feel it's entirely unnecessary to the core argument he's making (ie "why can't I run into non-white people in a 100 hour game?") as it's a complete diversion and he's perpetuating the kind of "monotheist washing" he begins to touch on in his article. Denying or downplaying a culture isn't exactly inclusive IMO.

That said, things are getting so shitty that we're considering a guy that uses idioms like "cultural Maoism" a reasonable counterpoint.

Honestly, this might be me getting tired of that shit but it seems we can't really touch on these subjects without falling into dumb hyperbole.
The core question I mentioned is fair enough. I'm probably at the 100 hour mark, this is my favorite game in years but when someone points that out, I think it's a reasonable question.
That I think it's a fair question doesn't mean:
- I think any kind of quotas should be forced on anyone.
- I'm offended. The most generous interpretation I have for the frequency at which this word is thrown around here to dismiss any questions is that they don't understand what "offended" means. This works with "outrage" too.
- I think the designers are racist or even color blind.
- this makes the game bad.

It just means I think that pointing it out can be valuable feedback to a developer and challenges them, even when they're building on a universe that isn't entirely theirs. I don't think the discussion has to be adversarial. It's just that we're entirely easy to tell them what to do with their engine and game mechanics so I don't really see why we couldn't ask them why (or if) they couldn't have a more diverse population.

If the first time someone had pointed out how embarrassing the sex cards were, they had been shut up with any variation of "outrage culture", The Witcher 3 probably wouldn't be as good as it is. They've come a very long way in depicting female characters. The notion that writers (or any creators) grow in a vacuum and shouldn't be bothered is absurd. They are influenced by a crapload of things and it's perfectly okay.

Sorry for the rant.

Edit: and yeah, thematically, the games do tackle racism a lot through the proxy of non-humans. This actually goes to show that CDPR are perfectly capable to write about this. I think this more about representation than racism as an issue.

 

[RockTurtle]

Is this really a "whitewash" thing? Or would the people critiquing about race diversity in games actually complain about a hypothetical Journey to the West game that has nothing but Chinese, Indians, and demons?

depends, if the game is sold in the US i expect at least a new yorker there!

 

[Verger]

It just seems odd to single this game out for "whitewashing" when its based on Middle-ages Europe which was white as can be. If you were to add a POC in it then there'd have to be a good reason to fit in the game universe otherwise they're just a token character.

Someone mentioned the Zerrekian's, and Witcher 1 had Azar Javed as one. But he was someone who admitted making a long difficult travel, and it's unlikely you'd find anymore of his kind in the current game with the war going on. Outside of the Z's I don't think there even exists any other colored people in the lore and universe of the Witcher but I could be wrong.

 

[Syrus]

Is it wrong for me to believe that developers should be able to make whatever game their vision is?

Id rather that then for then to lazily add certain types of characters

 

[Moff]

It is there...dotted all over the place in the game.

well it's not completely out of the picture, but racism was a central element of the plot in the first two games and that was replaced with prejucide against magic in the third one

 

[Toxi]

One of the prominent ideas about fate in Slavic mythology is that female spirits/deities (Genii) guide fate. They can be satisfied by various offerings and take the form of beautiful fairy-like women in white (Which are . Russia and Serbia have the figure of the Doyla/Sreca, an old woman-like creature who accompanies a person through their life and either offers help (Good fortune) or provides none (Bad fortune). The Russian variant is particularly nasty when uncooperative, since she can't ever be escaped.

Myths about little people call them "Ludki". They were the oldest people with big heads and red hats. They were grain farmers and master craftsmen with a love a music. Their society was friendly towards human beings, yet incredibly hostile to each other, with lots of war between the different families and houses.

 

[Phediuk]

The Slavic Mythology angle is a pretty bad one. I feel it's entirely unnecessary to the core argument he's making (ie "why can't I run into non-white people in a 100 hour game?") as it's a complete diversion and he's perpetuating the kind of "monotheist washing" he begins to touch on in his article. Denying or downplaying a culture isn't exactly inclusive IMO.

That said, things are getting so shitty that we're considering a guy that uses idioms like "cultural Maoism" a reasonable counterpoint.

Honestly, this might be me getting tired of that shit but it seems we can't really touch on these subjects without falling into dumb hyperbole.
The core question I mentioned is fair enough. I'm probably at the 100 hour mark, this is my favorite game in years but when someone points that out, I think it's a reasonable question.
That I think it's a fair question doesn't mean:
- I think any kind of quotas should be forced on anyone.
- I'm offended. The most generous interpretation I have for the frequency at which this word is thrown around here to dismiss any questions is that they don't understand what "offended" means. This works with "outrage" too.
- I think the designers are racist or even color blind.
- this makes the game bad.

It just means I think that pointing it out can be valuable feedback to a developer and challenges them, even when they're building on a universe that isn't entirely theirs. I don't think the discussion has to be adversarial. It's just that we're entirely easy to tell them what to do with their engine and game mechanics so I don't really see why we couldn't ask them why (or if) they couldn't have a more diverse population.

If the first time someone had pointed out how embarrassing the sex cards were, they had been shut up with any variation of "outrage culture", The Witcher 3 probably wouldn't be as good as it is. They've come a very long way in depicting female characters. The notion that writers (or any creators) grow in a vacuum and shouldn't be bothered is absurd. They are influenced by a crapload of things and it's perfectly okay.

Sorry for the rant.

Let's make a list of thought-terminating cliches that people (not necessarily here, but often) use to shut down discussion about the representation of women and minorities in games.

SJW
Outrage culture
Professional victim
Offended
Radical feminism
Tumblrina
Color blind
Egalitarian
Clickbait
Censorship
Free speech

am I missing anything?

 

[Zornack]

Really wish we could have discussions on race in video games that didn't start with "This game is all white because the devs don't realize nor care that non white people exist." But I guess anything less inflammatory wouldn't get any sort of response.

I'm hoping Austin's new platform at GB will allow him mess around with this topic, what writing I've seen of his on race in games seems pretty good.

 

[kingkaiser]

Well, I looked at Adrian's twitter and found a new word:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism
It's definitely a thing in here. I find it a bit hard to relate to many posts I read in here. And that's understandable, because this is an american website. But you are criticizing somebody who lives in a very different place than you do.

This really cannot be stressed enough.

It might sound bizarre as hell for many Americans, but there are still many places in Europe where the locals never even faced someone non-white in person.

Just think about that.

 

[Red Hood]

Witcher 3 does not contain any people of color not because of “mythology” or “history” or “book lore” but most likely because CD Project Red never even considered adding non white characters to their game. They literally forgot that non-white people even exist, which is something that happens when you are a white person, living in predominantly white culture, and consuming predominantly white media. You can literally spend a few years making a cool video game, designing awesome monsters, and interesting characters, and not even once consider giving one of them a darker skin color. Folks who made the game not evil racists (at least I don’t think they are), they just happened to do a thing that white people very often do, which is to ignore everyone that does not look like them. By doing so they contributed to erasure of non-white people in the industry. Witcher 3 is yet another game that features exactly zero people of color. This is a problem.

Absolutely on fucking point as far as I'm concerned. It's why, even though I still play and enjoy them, I'd prefer not having the usual "dwarves, humans, elves" triangle things (inb4 avatar quote). Instead of using all the biggest clichés of the RPG genre, why not try and be a little more creative and look closer at home? There are so many wonderful and diverse races in our own backyard, yet I rarely see it fleshed out well. I understand it's just fiction and stuff, but I'm getting a little tired of the usual humans, dwarves and elves as NPCs and trolls, dragons, big ass spiders and whatnot as enemies.

My two cents.

 

[Anton Sugar]

What is your point? Because game defines her as succubus it makes her beast that is to be slayed no matter what? I think that is rather narrow point of view on her as character. Did you meet her and hear her story in the game?

If you did just replace her being succubus as her being dark skinned person and look at it from that perspective.

Whoa there--I'm stating facts about the game. Succubi are monsters.

I let HER go, but who knows if that's the right choice? Can you even say in this game? I don't know what repercussions letting her go will have.

It doesn't change the fact that they ARE monsters, in the game, and they're the only representation for people of color (that I've encountered). That's...not ideal.

 

[creatchee]

How is it not when you just say "this is not worth reading" 1/3 of the way into his post?

How many times are you going to misquote me? I never said that. I said that I consciously chose not to continue reading after he used "social justice warriors" in a pejorative way. Presentation is key in a lot of different life situations. You can have the best ideas in the world, but if you present them incorrectly, you won't have the impact that you desire and you will probably lose a portion of your audience - even those who would be on board with what you have to say.

 

[Ashe Nei]

Exactly two.

Two?

What about elves, dwarfs, mutants, outcasts or "monsters" chased out and hunted because what they are?

Isn't the topic about discrimination based on appearance, gender, social status and race pretty well represented within the games (and novels)?

Or these doesn't count? If it's so, why?

 

[His Majesty]

And are people seriously using the "historical accuracy" argument in here?

It's a fucking fantasy universe, there's no "history" to adhere to. Furthermore, the notion of an all-white medieval Europe is dubious at best, generally informed by whitewashed Hollywood histories and the like.

That's bullshit. Internal consistency is something very few games adhere to, luckily The Witcher 3 has managed it very well compared to other games (*cough* Dragon Age *cough*). The Northern Kingdoms and Skellige are based on medieval Poland/Scandinavia. These areas were exclusively white. What's there not to understand? Does every game nowadays need to pass a checklist of modern standards to avoid the racist/sexist/... game label?

What would CDProjekt need to do to satisfy you? Add in a small sidequest with a Zerrikanian merchant? Or just throw the internal consistency overboard and overhaul the demographics for (reasons)?

 

[Sanctuary]

Two?

What about elves, dwarfs, mutants, outcasts or "monsters" chased out and hunted because what they are?

Isn't the topic about discrimination based on appearance, gender, social status and race pretty well represented within the games (and novels)?

Or these doesn't count? If it's so, why?

Because they are fantasy of course.

Is it wrong for me to believe that developers should be able to make whatever game their vision is?

Id rather that then for then to lazily add certain types of characters

Exactly. What's worse: not having non caucasions, or blatantly shoehorning them in "just because"? Even if CDPR had included multiple ethniticites, would it have even been enough, or would it turn into a game of "well, this ethnic group has more representation and we demand parity"?

 

[tuxfool]

The Slavic Mythology angle is a pretty bad one. I feel it's entirely unnecessary to the core argument he's making (ie "why can't I run into non-white people in a 100 hour game?") as it's a complete diversion and he's perpetuating the kind of "monotheist washing" he begins to touch on in his article. Denying or downplaying a culture isn't exactly inclusive IMO.

That said, things are getting so shitty that we're considering a guy that uses idioms like "cultural Maoism" a reasonable counterpoint.

Honestly, this might be me getting tired of that shit but it seems we can't really touch on these subjects without falling into dumb hyperbole.
The core question I mentioned is fair enough. I'm probably at the 100 hour mark, this is my favorite game in years but when someone points that out, I think it's a reasonable question.
That I think it's a fair question doesn't mean:
- I think any kind of quotas should be forced on anyone.
- I'm offended. The most generous interpretation I have for the frequency at which this word is thrown around here to dismiss any questions is that they don't understand what "offended" means. This works with "outrage" too.
- I think the designers are racist or even color blind.
- this makes the game bad.

It just means I think that pointing it out can be valuable feedback to a developer and challenges them, even when they're building on a universe that isn't entirely theirs. I don't think the discussion has to be adversarial. It's just that we're entirely easy to tell them what to do with their engine and game mechanics so I don't really see why we couldn't ask them why (or if) they couldn't have a more diverse population.

If the first time someone had pointed out how embarrassing the sex cards were, they had been shut up with any variation of "outrage culture", The Witcher 3 probably wouldn't be as good as it is. They've come a very long way in depicting female characters. The notion that writers (or any creators) grow in a vacuum and shouldn't be bothered is absurd. They are influenced by a crapload of things and it's perfectly okay.

Sorry for the rant.

This was hardly a rant. The problem here is that some arguments and criticisms are much more valid than others.

The sex cards were cheap and tasteless. It was an obvious problem to rectify as such things are more tied to gameplay elements and not world composition. To ask them in a future Witcher game to rectify the issues of diversity will require them to modify the world to include, say more Zerrikanians in places they don't belong, arguably opening them to criticisms of tokenism. CDPr has shown themselves to be loath to modify lore related aspects of the world demonstrated by them only changing the potion system at a last resort.

 

[Tacitus_]

Two?

What about elves, dwarfs, mutants, outcasts or "monsters" chased out and hunted because what they are?

Isn't the topic about discrimination based on appearance, gender, social status and race pretty well represented within the games (and novels)?

Or these doesn't count? If it's so, why?

Oh there's plenty of those. There's exactly two humans who don't have white skin.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I think that fair representation is an important thing, I can't imagine what it must be like to feel constantly denied the opportunity to see your race, culture, gender, or orientation, well represented in the media you consume. It's certainly something Bioware's been striving to address with their latest games. But is that to say that a piece of media that doesn't embody this ideal is flawed or lesser? Is The Witcher a worse game, a worse fiction, for not being a utopian world of diversity and acceptance?

I wouldn't say that it is a worse or a lesser product as it is what it is. However, it could be better and have even more widespread appeal if it also included minorities in a more active and positive way.

Like I said before, it's very easy to see criticism of one aspect of something as condemnation of the whole thing. A lot of people saw Arthur Gies' review of TW3 as just that - he mentioned social issues for a paragraph or two and then gave the game a good score anyway, but everyone focused on those two paragraphs, stating that he was a shit reviewer and should leave agendas out of reviews etc.

As an example, I love Bayonetta. The presentation of Bayonetta is not very good - the camera is very male gaze-y, she's hyper sexualised and despite being the most powerful being in her respective universe her design and actions often cater to male players. That doesn't make me hate the games, and I don't think they're bad games because of it either. But if I had the opportunity to create a game in the franchise, I would try and tone down on that or at least present her in a more positive, less stereotypical light.

 

[Toxi]

Well that's because The Witcher is heavily inspired by Tolkien and other fantasy authors that came before it, as well as the legend of King Arthur and knights of the round table (Sapkowski is kind of an expert on the matter). Slavic mythology or Slavic folklore are tertiary or quaternary sources of inspiration, mostly monsters that Geralt slays and not much besides that.

I'd recommend reading Mickiewicz's Ballads and Romances to get a feel of what traditional Polish folk tales were like.

Sorry for missing this post. Will check out Ballads and Romances. EDIT: Oh crap, I should have guessed a good source on Polish folk tales wouldn't be in English.

I'm finding this interesting because it's the sort of thing that doesn't translate well to monsters to slay. Most of it is about normal household stuff and how people tried to rationalize the world around them.

 

[tuxfool]

well it's not completely out of the picture, but racism was a central element of the plot in the first two games and that was replaced with prejucide against magic in the third one

Actually, it does turn to these issues once the magic problem is resolved in some way.

 

[M.J. Doja]

Wouldn't be crazy to see some NPCs with darker skin. Pirates, bandits, roaming folk.

Doesn't offend me as a mixed black/white American, I really appreciate the discussion that is sparked in this instance. People seem to simultaneously look for ways to get outraged AND get outraged at the outraged individuals, new era of trolls IMO.

You have to be able to look at it as an obvious oversight due to a lack of ethnic diversity in Poland, and not try to take it to the malicious standpoint. Then again I don't expect certain types of people to care enough to make that distinction.

 

[Hopeford]

I'm kind of torn here. I have a bunch of contradictory feelings here and frankly can't reach a very coherent conclusion on this. On one hand I want games to have more diverse representation, but I'm not too keen on trying to paint a game that doesn't in an overly negative light or holding them up as if representation is their duty. It leaves a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth when a team representing its own culture is slammed for not being more inclusive--I understand why representation is important, but I don't think that's fully fair to the developers either.

At the same time, since I do understand why people would want to be represented more often in fiction I don't know what else you can do to achieve that aside from criticizing instances that don't help you achieve that, like Witcher 3. So I want creators to be free to just write what they want and have the work judged for its merits instead of being held as an instrument of social change...but at the same time, fiction is a damn good instrument at social change. So I can't in good faith say "Well, just let writers do what they want" because I know how important this can be. I'm just kind of stuck between two firm opinions of "I don't think writers should be held responsible for representing every race in every game" and "Not holding them responsible for it leads to the industry's current state, which is very unfortunate."

So I just end up like, gosh, I can't even say "I think people should just do X" because I see both sides and don't have much of a solution here. Ideally I'd want teams to be free to do whatever, and for that to happily coincide with everyone being represented well...but I know that's not very likely to happen. So I read complaints like this and I'm just like, "I can't fully agree with you, but I can't fully disagree either." So I just sigh and realize I don't have much to say here. Kind of makes me feel I'm missing something, since everyone in these topics tends to have a very strong opinion one way or the other and I'm just wishy-washy about it. Hope that rambling makes sense, and sorry if I didn't express myself too clearly.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Let's make a list of thought-terminating cliches that people (not necessarily here, but often) use to shut down discussion about the representation of women and minorities in games.

SJW
Outrage culture
Professional victim
Offended
Radical feminism
Tumblrina
Color blind
Egalitarian
Clickbait
Censorship
Free speech

am I missing anything?

"Anita Sarkeesian"
"Feminazis"
"Ethics in games journalism"
"It's just a game"
"Media doesn't affect real life"

 

[plasmawave]

How many times are you going to misquote me? I never said that. I said that I consciously chose not to continue reading after he used "social justice warriors" in a pejorative way. Presentation is key in a lot of different life situations. You can have the best ideas in the world, but if you present them incorrectly, you won't have the impact that you desire and you will probably lose a portion of your audience - even those who would be on board with what you have to say.

So do you agree with what he's saying up til that point or not?

 

[SRTtoZ]

And here is nice answer to that article.

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439

And i wanted to stop reading Lukes article when i saw this



and Adrian noticed same.

Lol. This pretty much tore down the article in question step by step. .

 

[ICKE]

Absolutely on fucking point as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree. The games takes place in Northern Kingdoms within Sapkowski's world. To have black humans as regular people walking about in this game just wouldn't make sense. Especially after the previous games, it wouldn't be consistent at all.

"white people very often do, which is to ignore everyone that does not look like them."

Yawn.

 

[Toxi]

Lol. This pretty much tore down the article in question step by step. .

The mythology section certainly doesn't. It lists a bunch of books on Slavic mythology, but it doesn't really explain how their contents pertain to the Witcher.

 

[KHlover]

Absolutely on fucking point as far as I'm concerned. It's why, even though I still play and enjoy them, I'd prefer not having the usual "dwarves, humans, elves" triangle things (inb4 avatar quote). Instead of using all the biggest clichés of the RPG genre, why not try and be a little more creative and look closer at home? There are so many wonderful and diverse races in our own backyard, yet I rarely see it fleshed out well. I understand it's just fiction and stuff, but I'm getting a little tired of the usual humans, dwarves and elves as NPCs and trolls, dragons, big ass spiders and whatnot as enemies.

My two cents.

I'm sure the author of the Witcher novels looked close to his home. Your backyard != his backyard. Poland isn't the USA. Since the Witcher games are based on existing novels the devs also can't just go around and change stuff like the ethnicity of the population and still call it a faithful adaptation, fans would tear them apart. Exactly two named People of Color are mentioned in the books and they come from literally the other side of the continent, so it makes sense for none of them to appear in The Witcher 3. For what it's worth one black person from the same country appeared in The Witcher 1, however that was before war broke out and made everyone with a shred of intelligence stay away from the north.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I agree with all points made here.
But just a disclosure because it's Adrian and he uses the term "social justice warrior"; people will disregard this. Not saying everyone but I'm confident a few people will stop reading just on those two/

I read both articles, and it baffles me that someone would disregard both arguments because of a word used. (In this case SJW). I mean, anyone who would disregard an article because of that word is well...not fit to argue about this.

That being said, Lukes argument is based around the denial of slavic mythology which I mean it may not be as fleshed out as other mythologies, but there's still something there...so Lukes argument falls apart when you actually look at what it's saying instead of it's message, IE arguing for more diversity which is always a good thing, but in this case it's so badly written.

I'm going to assume that Luke likes the Witcher 3 alot, but this one offence caused him to write an emotional response that only makes sense when you disregard a whole culture.

The mythology section certainly doesn't. It lists a bunch of books on Slavic mythology, but it doesn't really explain how their contents pertain to the Witcher.

Lukes argument is based on there being no slavic mythology. Considering there is some slavic mythology, it falls apart from the seams from the beginning. It's not a matter of how much slavic mythology the Witcher may have, it's a matter that Luke said there's no slavic mythology at all which I mean...isn't true.

 

[Modest Mauser]

I'm pretty conflicted on this..

Poland is 98.6% European, is it surprising when their media reflects that? I don't see people criticizing Japanese games for featuring only Japanese characters.

I understand the desire for more representation in games, and definitely want to see more of it myself, but saying the devs don't care about the existence of non-white people is pretty ridiculous.

Cyberpunk 2077 is based on an American table top game that takes in place in California, if that game comes out and has only white people, it would be totally fair to criticize CDPR since it doesn't reflect the society it's depicting, but Witcher, based on a series of Polish books inspired by Polish culture and folklore, just feels like a different case.

 

[elitewillie1]

As a person of color I give two shits about persons of color being represented in games. I play games to get away from real life. In addition, this complaint has never even come up on gaming discussions between my Hispanic or Black friends before. This shit is only discussed by privileged gaming journalist to create an issue that isn't there. Trust me guys, we don't need your saving. We're good.

 

[Reebot]

I wouldn't say that it is a worse or a lesser product as it is what it is. However, it could be better and have even more widespread appeal if it also included minorities in a more active and positive way.

That's not an innately good thing nor its it an ideal to which all should strive.

CDPR created a fully realized Witcher world at the expense of some widestream appeal. That's there choice; no one has to agree with it, of course, but they don't deserve the hatred and insults slung at them in the initial article.

Racial diversity would have been an interesting avenue to explore in this world, but for whatever consideration - likely time and money - CDPR chose not to. This was a good call; diversity for its own sake can harm a product.

I disagree. The games takes place in Northern Kingdoms within Sapkowski's world. To have black humans as regular people walking about in this game just wouldn't make sense. Especially after the previous games, it wouldn't be consistent at all.

"white people very often do, which is to ignore everyone that does not look like them."

Yawn.

That poster (not ICKE) is blatantly ignorant of the game world.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Are we seriously accusing polish people, who have basically 0 representation in media, and slavish people, whose depiction in media is usually the stereotype of the russian mafia muscleman, of being insensitive because they made a game settled in fantasy medieval europe and there were 0 black people in it? Developers who live in a country that is almost 100% white and has been for as long as it existed? What's next, complaining about no black people in a viking setting?

I completely understand why representation is a problem but seriously, there are so many examples of games, movies and series that take place in MODERN AMERICA that have little to zero people of color and you'd write a piece about the fuckign Witcher 3? Dude tomorrowland had 1 person of color in the whole movie and it was a fucking robot. Every fucking serial i casually see on TV during dinner is paler than my wc and rarely has a dude that could pass even as a southern italian/norhtern african. Those things are not coming out from a 100% white culture, but may very well be and it's even more of a problem when you consider than the majority of US media consumers aren't even americans.

The america centrism in the piece also show when it made absolutely no mention of a ethnicity that could've very well be there considering the setting: northern africans/arabs.
Were the game based loosely on medieval europe their presence would've fit perfectly because they had a considerable presence in medieval europe and would've been surely more realistic than having straight moors/blacks which were incredibly more rare. Them not being there would strike me of more of an absence considering the settings, and a wasted opportunity to represent a rarely represented culture which was much more advanced in many ways than witch-burning savage europe at the times.
Instead it focus on this typical american dychotomy of "black/white" which completely ignore all of the different shades of colors and cultures, and the history of "white" on "white" racism and wars between europeans.

 

[His Majesty]

The mythology section certainly doesn't. It lists a bunch of books on Slavic mythology, but it doesn't really explain how their contents pertain to the Witcher.

Some of the monsters in the games are literally taken from a Slavic book on monster mythology.

from the Bestiariusz Słowiańsk, you might recognize it as a Fiend which is in the game.

 

[aliengmr]

Hate to say it, but diversity really wasn't being celebrated in Novigrad.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

That's not an innately good thing nor its it an ideal to which all should strive.

CDPR created a fully realized Witcher world at the expense of some widestream appeal. That's there choice; no one has to agree with it, of course, but they don't deserve the hatred and insults slung at them in the initial article.

Racial diversity would have been an interesting avenue to explore in this world, but for whatever consideration - likely time and money - CDPR chose not to. This was a good call; diversity for its own sake can harm a product.

"Diversity for its own sake" doesn't damage anything. We need to stop "justifying" the existence of minorities in video games.

 

[monlo]

this is a good counter argument, from an international film student

http://thegonzologist.tumblr.com/post/120655612895/the-one-where-i-talk-about-diversity

basically, telling Poland how to make their entertainment/art products is cultural imperialism. It's akin to hating on Japan for not making black-people games

 

[lefantome]

This article (from one of the designers on The Vanishing of Ethan Carter) explains so well why the article in the OP is horrible.

Please Read It.

The developer nailed the entire situation, great rebuttal.

Also it is sad to see people lie, in this particular case they are lying about their own cultural background. It's insane.

 

[Le_Samourai]

As a Mexican i'm tired of this diversity talk, I don't play videogames to see myself being "represented" all of my friends and I couldn’t care less about how many "minorities" appear in x game.

I think a situation where there is 99 all-white-cast games or movies and just one quality title that takes place in tribal Africa, Pre-Columbian México or medieval Chine is MUCH better and more culturally enriching than 100 crappy titles a handful of people each watch or play where the cast represents all colours, sexes and sexualities.