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Witcher 3 and Diversity (Luke Maciak)

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Whats the right mix? do we say 33.3 for white, yellow and brown? Or token X%?
Because wont token characters create the same level of outrage?

Perhaps people should judge them on what they do with Cyberpunk...
 

Mozz-eyes

Banned
Attack on Titan is a weird one since its like literally just white people left. All people of Asian, Latin, African or other descent are MIA. Dunno if the manga will ever get around to explaining that part.

Maybe black people were more delicious so they got eaten faster? No Titan wants to munch on a bland, white Caucasian.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
The only real complaint I can make is that the one non-white character I've encountered
the succubus
is exoticized big time what with
being a sex crazed individual

But that's really about it. The world is much more believable than Dragon Age's politically correct fantasy. It's great if you want to build a multicultural world set in a middle ages-style setting where people are cool with you being gay or whatever, but it won't be believable, you will always be very aware this is a fantasy video game world. Whereas Witcher actually manages to feel like a real place. It's an astonishing achievement.

Ugh. Have you played DA:I like, at all? And the most important thing in here is not making the world "believable" although it is a nice thing to have (and DA's world is "believable" enough for me) but for highly blockbuster huge games like Dragon Age to feature diverse characters so that more blockbuster games can move towards an environment where socially diverse characters can be included more and more.

It's a shame that there's actually one big franchise/video game company that tried to do this, and people are so quick to call it "politically correct" in an ill-intentioned attempt to make their favored game look "better" in comparison.
 

Verger

Banned
You keep bringing up Dragon Age as being "politically correct" when elves and dwarves in that world are subject to violent oppression and ghettoization. I find it difficult to believe you've actually played any Dragon Age game beyond reading the rantings of people who believe Bioware has some kind of agenda to ruin video games with communism or something.
I'm assuming he's talking more about Inquisition. Origins of course put those issues at the fore where as Inq pushed them aside and everyone was merry.

Of course the fact that the Dragon Age universe lacks any cohesion between entries doesn't help either. The writers clearly just made things up as they were going along each series. And yes I did play Inquisition, unfortunately, and the game universe was as PC as you can get.
And the most important thing in here is not making the world "believable" although it is a nice thing to have (and DA's world is "believable" enough for me) but for highly blockbuster huge games like Dragon Age to feature diverse characters so that more blockbuster games can move towards an environment where socially diverse characters can be included more and more.
So you would therefore champion tokenism above good writing....ok...

If you don't think the characters in Witcher 3 are "socially diverse", then I don't know what to tell you.
 

dex3108

Member
Ugh. Have you played DA:I like, at all? And the most important thing in here is not making the world "believable" although it is a nice thing to have (and DA's world is "believable" enough for me) but for highly blockbuster huge games like Dragon Age to feature diverse characters so that more blockbuster games can move towards an environment where socially diverse characters can be included more and more.

It's a shame that there's actually one big franchise/video game company that tried to do this, and people are so quick to call it "politically correct" in an ill-intentioned attempt to make their favored game look "better" in comparison.

When it makes sense we all should support it. Mass Effect is perfect example. DA games are still leaning towards medieval period and that wasn't pleasant time for many races, genders and cultures. That is why he feels that DA world is a bit off.

People often forget that history of our planet was often brutal, unpleasant and uncomfortable. Video games are popular medium among young people and kids and even though they are games they can influence kids. That is why sometimes it is not good to sugarcoat things in games because kids can learn something from history in that way.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
If they make a future game set in Zerrikania and there are no (or few) white people, you won't see me complaining. I'd just be fucking stoked there was another Witcher game. Or another example was one of my favorite games of a couple years ago, Sleeping Dogs. Almost no white people in that game. Did I complain about that? No, because that would make me a moron.

It would make you a moron but probably not for the reason you think. There aren't a ton of big games that feature Asian characters in a central role, unlike how white people are literally like 70% of main, playable characters in games.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I'm assuming he's talking more about Inquisition. Origins of course put those issues at the fore where as Inq pushed them aside and everyone was merry.

Of course the fact that the Dragon Age universe lacks any cohesion between entries doesn't help either. The writers clearly just made things up as they were going along each series. And yes I did play Inquisition, unfortunately, and the game universe was as PC as you can get.

So you would therefore champion tokenism above good writing....ok...

If you don't think the characters in Witcher 3 are "socially diverse", then I don't know what to tell you.

Well I respectfully disagree with you in terms of how Dragon Age treats its, I am sorry to use these terms, "non-white" or "non-straight" characters. I think they did a good job at it. Also, since when Origins "put those issues at the fore"? The folks in the DA universe are just fine with gay characters for example, right from the get go. Hell you can even be gay for Zhevran or Leliana and no one will give you an evil eye for it. And the best armor vendor in the game are openly gay and no one in that world are in a hurry to burn their shop--right there at the center of the capital--down.

And since I viewed it that way, "tokenism" is the farthest word I can think of when I see how the minorities are represented in the DA universe.

Also, I have never said and did not say that Witcher 3 are not socially diverse. I am just having a bit of an issue with meanspartan's assessment on Dragon Age, that's all. That you are so quick in implying that this means I intended to disparage the Witcher is weird, so no, you don't need know what to tell me since you need not tell me anything.

When it makes sense we all should support it. Mass Effect is perfect example. DA games are still leaning towards medieval period and that wasn't pleasant time for many races, genders and cultures. That is why he feels that DA world is a bit off.

People often forget that history of our planet was often brutal, unpleasant and uncomfortable. Video games are popular medium among young people and kids and even though they are games they can influence kids. That is why sometimes it is not good to sugarcoat things in games because kids can learn something from history in that way.

DA games is medieval in feel yes but that doesn't mean it is not a fictional kind of medieval that's not allowed to have its own fantasy set and rules. So long as it is consistent with the lore and world-settings being presented, and it is, I am fine with it.
 

KC Denton

Member
When it makes sense we all should support it. Mass Effect is perfect example. DA games are still leaning towards medieval period and that wasn't pleasant time for many races, genders and cultures. That is why he feels that DA world is a bit off.

People often forget that history of our planet was often brutal, unpleasant and uncomfortable. Video games are popular medium among young people and kids and even though they are games they can influence kids. That is why sometimes it is not good to sugarcoat things in games because kids can learn something from history in that way.
So you would also say that video games influence kids to become more violent?
Also I think this is the first time I've ever seen anybody try to use "won't someone please think of the children" to justify having racism and sexism in a game that is targeted at people aged 17+. Like, are were supposed to complain that Zelda or Final Fantasy DON'T have pogroms, racism, and people being burned at the stake for witchcraft?
 
The DA:I tangent is a bit baffling in that apparently, in a 100% fictive world, brown and gay people are harder to believe in than dwarves, elves and dragons.
 
Attack on Titan is a weird one since its like literally just white people left. All people of Asian, Latin, African or other descent are MIA. Dunno if the manga will ever get around to explaining that part.

Attack on Titan seems to be set in Europe. Lots of the names seem German to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Attack_on_Titan_characters

We know that in that part of the world at least Asians are uncommon as Mikasa and her mother were attacked for human trafficking for their rarity. The 3 walls might not encommpass all of humanity but we obviously don't know what's going on outside it. Maybe everyone in Africa got eaten, maybe they built their own walls. We also don't know if it is supposed to coincide with any real historical point so we don't know how mixed populations would be before the walls went up. AoT seems like another weird one to complain about diversity in unless you want a quota equivalent to modern day America.
 

dex3108

Member
So you would also say that video games influence kids to become more violent?
Also I think this is the first time I've ever seen anybody try to use "won't someone please think of the children" to justify having racism and sexism in a game that is targeted at people aged 17+. Like, are were supposed to complain that Zelda or Final Fantasy DON'T have pogroms, racism, and people being burned at the stake for witchcraft?

Games like Assassins Creed, Verdun, Witcher, Kingdom Come, Stalker and many mothers are relying on history as their background. And even though they are games they should stay true to the history as much as possible.

And no i don't think that game influence kids to become more violent. But in case of games i mentioned before they can become confused. In school they learn one thing (if they learn) and then they see that world recreated in medium that is closer to them and they see contradictory things. And guess what yes kids are playing 18+ games.

And this is only one reason why W3 should be what it is. First and most important thing in my opinion is still right to present your own culture and people in way you see it and that is exactly what CDPR did.
 

KC Denton

Member
Games like Assassins Creed, Verdun, Witcher, Kingdom Come, Stalker and many mothers are relying on history as their background. And even though they are games they should stay true to the history as much as possible.

And no i don't think that game influence kids to become more violent. But in case of games i mentioned before they can become confused. In school they learn one thing (if they learn) and then they see that world recreated in medium that is closer to them and they see contradictory things. And guess what yes kids are playing 18+ games.

And this is only one reason why W3 should be what it is. First and most important thing in my opinion is still right to present your own culture and people in way you see it and that is exactly what CDPR did.
First of all, I noticed you didn't mention Dragon Age in that list of games. Backtracking much? And fucking hell you think Assassin's Creed, the game about space aliens causing an apocalypse, is true to history? Give me a break!

I understand how important it is to have games represent time periods and cultures accurately but the way you are going is too extreme. I enjoy the fantastical elements of video games such as elves and dragons and magic and the day they get censored out in the name of historical accuracy is the day I stop playing video games.

Edit: Wait, Stalker is a historical recreation? I'm pretty sure there aren't any mutants and other monsters in Pripyat last time I checked. Wouldn't kids get confused learning about that city then?
 

ICKE

Banned
Magical semi-immortal cat eyed monster hunters? Totally fine!
A person of color? Historical accuracy says they don't exist!

It all depends. Developers should strive to create immersive worlds and CD Projekt has managed to utilize their source material appropriately. There is a consistency in these adventures within the Northern Kingdoms.

I don't mind games that use similar environments differently and European folklore doesn't require that all humans should be white - that is just silly. But most of these stories follow certain patterns, they utilize the history and culture of this continent and these tales have been passed from one generation to another. From forest goblins to mound men and what have you. To many Europeans it might feel more believable to build stories around familiar settings, Medieval villages where a homogeneous population roams about while the nobility constantly tries to fight for power.

This is also the reason why we are unlikely to see any white people should Chinese companies create RPGs that are based around their mythology in the Hunan province or some such. A North American company like Bioware is less likely to follow these same thought patterns, because they approach kings, dragons and trolls from another perspective.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
The real issue in my opinion is that there are no popular games from black developers that are about black people, or black mythology, or black fantasy.

But don't tell me that a Polish house like CDPR is supposed to magically properly represent black people.

Anyway, what subgroup of black people? Don't portray all blacks as being the same. You wouldn't really do much for being fair (or whatever the issue is) by plopping some prototype black man with Nigerian accent in there.

I think this is not about black people in videogames. It's about videogames from black people. The world needs ethnical diversity in videogame story frameworks; this would be achievable if black people made those frameworks, and black people managed development.

Has NOTHING to do with CDPR imho.
 

dex3108

Member
First of all, I noticed you didn't mention Dragon Age in that list of games. Backtracking much? And fucking hell you think Assassin's Creed, the game about space aliens causing an apocalypse, is true to history? Give me a break!

I understand how important it is to have games represent time periods and cultures accurately but the way you are going is too extreme. I enjoy the fantastical elements of video games such as elves and dragons and magic and the day they get censored out in the name of historical accuracy is the day I stop playing video games.

No i am not backtracking i am still standing with what i said. DA:I feels a bit off but that doesn't mean that game is bad. And yes AC games are pretty accurate and they just build whole Templar/Assassin war on top of that. W3 did similar thing, first author of the books took medieval setting and incorporated myths and folklore of Poland and surrounding countries, then CDPR took it and build on top of that.

And i don't see anything extreme with W3 or any other game i mentioned. I just don't like when people are ashamed of our history that they are trying to "fix it" in modern mediums. That is why i don't like that Germany censures WW2 games and forbids Nazi flags in those games.

And again i don't have anything against promoting diversity of any kind in video games. Devs should definitely do it but they should do it when it makes sense. And attacking devs like CDPR for not including it is nonsense.
 
I think this is not about black people in videogames. It's about videogames from black people. The world needs ethnical diversity in videogame story frameworks; this would be achievable if black people made those frameworks, and black people managed development.

Has NOTHING to do with CDPR imho.

CDPR brought on the black creator of Cyberpunk 2020 as a co-creator for Cyberpunk 2077, so they're already way ahead of this (and more progressive than Polygon, which doesn't have a single black writer on staff).
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
CDPR brought on the black creator of Cyberpunk 2020 as a co-creator for Cyberpunk 2077, so they're already way ahead of this (and more progressive than Polygon, which doesn't have a single black writer on staff).

Well there you go. Problem solved. Black scifi.
 

Mozz-eyes

Banned
This is almost as dumb as being outraged that there aren't enough enough Chinese people in NBA 2K16.

This guy gets it.

Maybe in the next game the protagonist should be a post op transsexual disabled Polynesian who is blind and only speaks Catalan.

The protagonist is accompanied by a motley crew of box ticking friends who form a fucking university prospectus-like happy clappy club.

Maybe then everyone will shut the hell up and just enjoy the game.
 
CDPR brought on the black creator of Cyberpunk 2020 as a co-creator for Cyberpunk 2077, so they're already way ahead of this (and more progressive than Polygon, which doesn't have a single black writer on staff).

How about just hiring the best person for the job instead of giving it to someone because of his/her race?
 
How about just hiring the best person for the job instead of giving it to someone because of his/her race?

The argument is irrelevant to my point - if Polygon wants to demand fictional diversity from a Polish videogame developer it might help having some actual diversity in their own staff. Instead they're just profiting from ad traffic talking about an issue they lack the proper perspective to truly understand.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
This guy gets it.

Maybe in the next game the protagonist should be a post op transsexual disabled Polynesian who is blind and only speaks Catalan.

The protagonist is accompanied by a motley crew of box ticking friends who form a fucking university prospectus-like happy clappy club.

Maybe then everyone will shut the hell up and just enjoy the game.

If some idiot developer would do that, then I would be outraged. Again, the proper kind of diversity is that of the landscape of videogames, not the one in one game, unless that game's internal diversity makes sense considering the backdrop. Like it makes sense in GTA.

A game like the one you (satirically) envision is one that could only work as a joke, of course. And that joke would be in bad taste. So fuck that game.
 

23qwerty

Member
The argument is irrelevant to my point - if Polygon wants to demand fictional diversity from a Polish videogame developer it might help having some actual diversity in their own staff. Instead they're just profiting from ad traffic talking about an issue they lack the proper perspective to truly understand.

Well they were saying that sarcastically... right?
 

Skelter

Banned
How about just hiring the best person for the job instead of giving it to someone because of his/her race?

He CREATED Cyberpunk 2020. The IP which the game Cyberpunk 2077 is being of off...

aa002f73ca9beac99bc8a5c9613756e7.jpg
 

KC Denton

Member
No i am not backtracking i am still standing with what i said. DA:I feels a bit off but that doesn't mean that game is bad. And yes AC games are pretty accurate and they just build whole Templar/Assassin war on top of that. W3 did similar thing, first author of the books took medieval setting and incorporated myths and folklore of Poland and surrounding countries, then CDPR took it and build on top of that.

And i don't see anything extreme with W3 or any other game i mentioned. I just don't like when people are ashamed of our history that they are trying to "fix it" in modern mediums. That is why i don't like that Germany censures WW2 games and forbids Nazi flags in those games.

And again i don't have anything against promoting diversity of any kind in video games. Devs should definitely do it but they should do it when it makes sense. And attacking devs like CDPR for not including it is nonsense.
First of all, the Assassin's Creed games are not historically accurate considering how they've established the creation of our world as the result of an alien apocalypse. By your logic, children would be confused as a result of playing that game since they would think that we descended from ancient aliens when it is a fairly well-established fact that we did not come from aliens.

Secondly, how is Dragon Age demonstrating being ashamed of history? That game takes place in an entirely fantastical world where magic and dragons have informed the course of history. It is not grounded in any historical basis whatsoever and is entirely the work of a team of creative minds. Why are you trying to say that it would be preferable to censor the work of the creators of Dragon Age to fit your worldview, saying that it would make children confused because children apparently have issues separating fantasy from reality?
 

ICKE

Banned
Secondly, dow is Dragon Age demonstrating being ashamed of history? That game takes place in an entirely fantastical world where magic and dragons have informed the course of history. It is not grounded in any historical basis whatsoever and is entirely the work of a team of creative minds. Why are you trying to say that it would be preferable to censor the work of the creators of Dragon Age to fit your worldview, saying that it would make children confused because children apparently have issues separating fantasy from reality?

Regarding Dragon Age, it did kind of feel like the first game was influenced by medieval England (Ferelden) and then Bioware sort of wanted to switch things around. I think they should have opted for distinct high fantasy from the get-go just like Drakensang. But it really isn't even an issue, in my opinion the franchise was destroyed after Origins for completely other reasons.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
No i am not backtracking i am still standing with what i said. DA:I feels a bit off but that doesn't mean that game is bad. And yes AC games are pretty accurate and they just build whole Templar/Assassin war on top of that. W3 did similar thing, first author of the books took medieval setting and incorporated myths and folklore of Poland and surrounding countries, then CDPR took it and build on top of that.

And i don't see anything extreme with W3 or any other game i mentioned. I just don't like when people are ashamed of our history that they are trying to "fix it" in modern mediums. That is why i don't like that Germany censures WW2 games and forbids Nazi flags in those games.

And again i don't have anything against promoting diversity of any kind in video games. Devs should definitely do it but they should do it when it makes sense. And attacking devs like CDPR for not including it is nonsense.

I honestly am somewhat confused by what you're trying to argue here.

Are you saying that games that try to emulate the feel of a certain period should make it a necessary to ensure that all the rules/lores contained within them to accurately reflect the way our real society work during that certain period?

If so, that is a really bizarre way of seeing things. And seems really constraining in terms of creative freedoms.
 

fedexpeon

Banned
Firstly, Slavic mythology isn’t really a thing. You can’t talk about it in the same way as you talk about Norse mythology or ancient Greek or even Egyptian mythology. There is no concrete body of mythological lore you can print in a book, or use as a game setting.

In fact, most of what we know about the religious customs of the day has been sourced from notes of Christian monks about three or four hundred years after the last pagans have died. The same monks who have been actively suppressing that very knowledge for more than a few centuries. There are scant few bits and pieces of folklore that has survived to this day via oral tradition and custom, but even those were mostly scrubbed clean out of their original meanings. So anyone telling you that Witcher 3 is based on actual Slavic mythology is full of shit. We literally know more about the religion and myths of fictional land of Westeros than those of very real, pre-Christian Slavic people.

I can't believe what I am reading.
Do some of you guys actually believe this?
What the hell kind of backward argument is this?
Might as well call everything we know as fake because historians found consensus information across the board on the past from recorded scholar and historian past records that were kept hidden in a private great library.
Suppressing knowledge doesn't mean that their records are false.
It would mean otherwise since you would only suppress knowledge because the information in it is correctly recorded and should not be known to the public.
And knowledge back then was power.
The Church and the kingdom were dependent on it so that the current and future generation can learn about the surrounding politics, history, and cultures to ensure that they can use this information to their advantage.

But hey, I am just a random internet person.
But at least this guy has a name in Luke. Random person or Luke.
I believe Luke is more believable though.
 
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