But legal obligation (or lack thereof) is all that matters in court. You can't punish people for having low morals.
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Woman dies after male gym employee refuses to enter ladies locker room
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But legal obligation (or lack thereof) is all that matters in court. You can't punish people for having low morals.
I was missing "should" in my statement
It should be expected to help another in distress.
Being Canadian, I only read the horror stories of your american litigious society and wonder how you guys leave your house ever....Obviously joking, but I wonder how much that plays into these stories
I'm actually in Quebec where I believe our Good Samaritan laws make it our duty to act as long as it does not put us in danger as well.
Regardless I would do everything in my power because living with the thought that a person might have died because of me for the rest of my life far outweighs any job or stupid company policy.
If a stranger comes up to you and tell you to call 911 because someone fell, are you going to dial 911 right away without thought?
I would at least ask why. I'm not into dialing 911 on a whim.
Devolution
Member
What do you have to lose by calling emergency services at a gym?
Isn't it illegal to call 911 if it's not an emergency? If someone tells me to call 911 I'm going to find out why. I'm also wondering why didn't that person call 911.
If I see a house on fire, sure I'm calling 911. If a stranger comes up to me and tells me to call 911, and I don't hear screams, gun shots, or sirens, I'm going to find out why first. If you're telling me you won't do the same, and will dial 911 right away, well hey there's someone in your building who passed out RIGHT NOW so go call 911.
Did you do it?
not psycho
Member
She didn't just say "someone fell":
Going to help (and find out how bad it is) or immediately calling 911 would both be reasonable things to do. If you felt the info was not enough to call, you have to go see, not sit tight.
Doing nothing for 4.5 minutes is not an option.
Devolution
Member
Someone passed out in a stall is an emergency situation. I really hope someone like yourself doesn't have to deal with such a problem. It's not a stranger by the way. Every minute counts and you'd be busy playing detective.
freenudemacusers
Member
lol I'm pretty sure you would be let off the hook in this instance.
The cashier did not see that. It's unreasonable for the posters who think he should be charged for murder or spend time in jail for something he did not see. You know who did see it? The woman who told him. Why aren't you up in arms about the woman who also did not call 911?
More information here, sounds like he called 911 when someone brought it up, i think? Still, it reads like he was very nonchalant about it all
Dark Rider
Member
R.I.P
My condolences to the family and friends
Society and their stupid red lines at work sadly.
My condolences to the family and friends
Society and their stupid red lines at work sadly.
Sure, because an emergency did happen. There's posters on here saying they would dial 911 without thought if someone comes up to them and tells them to dial 911. I'm being honest and saying in the real world, I need to find out why I'm dialing 911.
Devolution
Member
I don't think he should be charged with murder. Maybe you should direct these questions at other posters. My issue is you seem to be critical of someone who pays to be at a gym in the early hours of the morning. I'm pretty sure they're not out to prank him or tell him to call 911 on a whim. Someone passed out in a stall.
freenudemacusers
Member
Sure, and I'm saying, in the real world, nobody is going to prosecute you for calling 911 thinking there is an emergency happening.
Why are you critical of me and not the woman who also didn't call 911? I'm saying the cashier AND that woman are equally to blame.
I definitely agree.
not psycho
Member
First of all, we don't know if she had a phone the whole time.
More importantly, she was trying to help. The first thing she did was run for help. When he refused, she went back to the stall.
If the guy had run to help instead of calling first, it might have turned out to be a bad decision, since it likely would have turned out there was nothing he could do (not that he knew that). But it would be defensible. Doing nothing was absolutely not defensible.
I don't know about that, the woman at least was frantically trying to do something, running back and forth. It seems the guy at the front didn't consider doing anything to help or get more info until someone told him to call 911. Maybe he was just in shock or whatever, but the woman seemed to at least be attempting something to help. I still wouldn't put much blame on either of them though. My assumption is that ignorance had more of a hand here than malice or apathy
Squirrel Killer
Member
That's why it's important to know how the first woman described the incident to the employee. Information that the most informative news article neglects to give. In a sworn affidavit, she describes it as someone snoring on the floor, which doesn't quite sound like a medical emergency to me. Even then, if you go up to a front desk employee to ask for medical help, and they are either unwilling or unable to give it, why the hell wouldn't you ask to borrow their phone to call 911? (Since we appear to be operating under the assumption that the woman reporting the incident didn't have a cell phone herself.)
I'm sorry but blaming the guy here - and calling for murder charges to be filed - sounds like it's based more on the sensationalist headlines than the facts of the case. He called 911, yes 4.5 minutes after he was first informed, but probably more egregious was that the gym was breaking the law by not having a defibrillator and a person trained to use it on site. That might have saved her, this guy who doesn't appear to know CPR going in to the locker room almost certainly wouldn't have.
Devolution
Member
Oh I definitely agree, I think the gym itself is the biggest failure here.
Twilight Gap
Member
This is a post I can agree with.
My first post was regrettable: both hyperbolic and childish. So there's that.
Let's put ourselves in his shoes. If someone tells me someone in the women's locker room is having an emergency that requires 911, and company policy dictates that I can't go in, and I'm dead set on not violating that policy, then I can't see for myself. In that instance, that very specific situation, why wouldn't I call 911? Why wait 5 minutes and then do it? You'd just let someone potentially die instead of trying to help because you can't see it?
I've already stated I'd try to get more info before jumping to the phone and dialing asap. I'm not going to take 5 minutes like said employee, but that doesn't mean you should lock him up because he didn't act fast enough. Why don't you put as much blame on the woman who didn't call 911?
polyh3dron
Banned
but what if the person you save sues for injury?
According to that article it took the dude about 30 seconds to call 911 once requested. Don't know why this dude didn't call initially but it doesn't seem like he ever refused to call.
Already said I regret saying I'd lock him up. I wouldn't. As for the woman, she wasn't the person in question at the time I wrote my posts, but you're right, she's just as wrong. And you saying you'd do it differently only proves my point: He was wrong.
Mr. E. Yis
Banned
In this type of society and the stories that happen all of the time, the guy should have been reluctant to go into the women's locker room, but he should have called 911 right away.
This worker probably was told to never leave the desk, even to go to the bathroom, unless he has someone to take his place. Though it doesn't excuse the wait to call 911.
If I were in his place- knowing that there are cameras on the desk, if someone alerted me that someone was hurt, first, I would call 911 right away no matter what, knowing that it wouldn't be my fault if it was a false emergency. While on the phone with 911, I would ask the witness questions- are they unconscious? are they on the floor? do you know if they are breathing? are they bleeding? what did you see happen? etc.
Once off of the phone, I would see what else I could do to help. If someone collapses in the gym itself or the men's locker room, I would rush there with some male gym goers as witnesses. And then do CPR, only if I was trained and policy was to do it as needed. But since this happened in the women's locker room, before I would go in there, I would ask the witness if the victim is fully clothed, and is there no other women in the locker room and showers besides the victim. If the answer to either or both of these is a no, I'm staying put until ambulance arrives. If the answers are yes, I would go in there with the original witness and another female as a witness. I would do CPR, only if I was trained and policy allowed me to do as needed in an emergency.
The most important thing to do in this situation is to immediately call 911. If he did that right away and nothing else, he pretty much would be in the clear in most people's eyes, and any suing by the victim's family would not work. Though it definitely would look selfish. But do you blame him in this kind of litigious society? Though you could save the victim's life, they could sue you and the company you work for. You have the possibility of breaking the victim's ribs if you perform CPR. What if you don't have CPR certification and you still do it and something goes wrong and you kill them/make it worse? What if a prank by a hateful gym goer cries about an emergency so they could take something from the desk? Or a prank where they want to get you in trouble when you walk in on a naked female in the locker room? Too much possibilities that end in you and/or the company likely getting sued, you going to jail, and most definitely losing your job and a mark for all future employment. When this happens, for most U.S. company policies of any job in any field is to alert the authorities immediately and if you don't know how or are not trained to help, stay put, and help the emergency workers if need be when they arrive. Companies make these policies because people are too sue-happy, and companies get sued all the time when their workers try to 'help' others.
My questions are:
If the guy had called 911 right away instead of waiting, but still not entered the womens' locker room, would he still be sued? Would he be fired from his job? Would anyone care?
More information I need from the story facts before we cast blame:
-is worker trained to do CPR/medical services?
-what is the company policy for a situation like this before we cast blame on the worker- can he leave the desk under special circumstances? is he allowed to do CPR under company policy if trained? is he allowed to go in women's locker room if there is an emergency? If it isn't policy, corporate will push blame on worker, and he can get sued also, not only the company. If the gym didn't have that defibrillator as they were supposed to, then the owner of that specific franchised gym is in trouble, not necessarily the whole Planet Fitness itself since it probably is company policy. A defibrillator would have probably saved the victim.
-did female witness have her cell phone with her when she went to call worker for help? if yes, she should have as much moral blame as the worker if she didn't call 911 first after seeing the worker dragging his feet, especially since she saw the problem first hand and can tell 911 what is happening.
This worker probably was told to never leave the desk, even to go to the bathroom, unless he has someone to take his place. Though it doesn't excuse the wait to call 911.
If I were in his place- knowing that there are cameras on the desk, if someone alerted me that someone was hurt, first, I would call 911 right away no matter what, knowing that it wouldn't be my fault if it was a false emergency. While on the phone with 911, I would ask the witness questions- are they unconscious? are they on the floor? do you know if they are breathing? are they bleeding? what did you see happen? etc.
Once off of the phone, I would see what else I could do to help. If someone collapses in the gym itself or the men's locker room, I would rush there with some male gym goers as witnesses. And then do CPR, only if I was trained and policy was to do it as needed. But since this happened in the women's locker room, before I would go in there, I would ask the witness if the victim is fully clothed, and is there no other women in the locker room and showers besides the victim. If the answer to either or both of these is a no, I'm staying put until ambulance arrives. If the answers are yes, I would go in there with the original witness and another female as a witness. I would do CPR, only if I was trained and policy allowed me to do as needed in an emergency.
The most important thing to do in this situation is to immediately call 911. If he did that right away and nothing else, he pretty much would be in the clear in most people's eyes, and any suing by the victim's family would not work. Though it definitely would look selfish. But do you blame him in this kind of litigious society? Though you could save the victim's life, they could sue you and the company you work for. You have the possibility of breaking the victim's ribs if you perform CPR. What if you don't have CPR certification and you still do it and something goes wrong and you kill them/make it worse? What if a prank by a hateful gym goer cries about an emergency so they could take something from the desk? Or a prank where they want to get you in trouble when you walk in on a naked female in the locker room? Too much possibilities that end in you and/or the company likely getting sued, you going to jail, and most definitely losing your job and a mark for all future employment. When this happens, for most U.S. company policies of any job in any field is to alert the authorities immediately and if you don't know how or are not trained to help, stay put, and help the emergency workers if need be when they arrive. Companies make these policies because people are too sue-happy, and companies get sued all the time when their workers try to 'help' others.
My questions are:
If the guy had called 911 right away instead of waiting, but still not entered the womens' locker room, would he still be sued? Would he be fired from his job? Would anyone care?
More information I need from the story facts before we cast blame:
-is worker trained to do CPR/medical services?
-what is the company policy for a situation like this before we cast blame on the worker- can he leave the desk under special circumstances? is he allowed to do CPR under company policy if trained? is he allowed to go in women's locker room if there is an emergency? If it isn't policy, corporate will push blame on worker, and he can get sued also, not only the company. If the gym didn't have that defibrillator as they were supposed to, then the owner of that specific franchised gym is in trouble, not necessarily the whole Planet Fitness itself since it probably is company policy. A defibrillator would have probably saved the victim.
-did female witness have her cell phone with her when she went to call worker for help? if yes, she should have as much moral blame as the worker if she didn't call 911 first after seeing the worker dragging his feet, especially since she saw the problem first hand and can tell 911 what is happening.
out0v0rder
Member
I dunno what to think. I mean we can't have men rushing into areas where there could be naked females running about just because they heard something. Tough situation, the mind doesnt think right in emergency situations either.
There isn't a stigma that applies to entering a women's restroom when there is a medical emergency and people are begging for your assistance.
bistromathics
facing a bright new dawn
really?
Of course there is. It's one of the reasons why the guy didn't go into the bathroom to check what was going on, emergency or not. Men aren't supposed to go into the women's bathroom, it's been ingrained in American males since grade school.
Tbh, I wouldn't either, at least not in USA. I've read too many fucked up stories online. People try to act like a hero, then end up getting the shit end of the stick.
What are the chances the guy could have ended up being sued by some extremist women's rights group for harassment or sexual misconduct? He might have just played it safe by standing ground.
What are the chances the guy could have ended up being sued by some extremist women's rights group for harassment or sexual misconduct? He might have just played it safe by standing ground.
I don't have to visit MRA forums, just stories that make it to GAF. Doesn't take much to notice the potential to end up on sex offender's list or/and losing his job is pretty real. He just played it safe.
Reading the story again he really should have called 911 earlier though, or asked someone to drag her body out so he could administer CPR.
If he wasn't discussing law, than that's all completely irrelevant.
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