Even current comic readers don't necessarily know who she is. It's not like she is this enormous deal in the Marvel universe, nor are her sales particularly great, even if her run is critically acclaimed.
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Wonder Woman removed as 'honorary ambassador' for UN after protests
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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Even current comic readers don't necessarily know who she is. It's not like she is this enormous deal in the Marvel universe, nor are her sales particularly great, even if her run is critically acclaimed.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Not caring so much about color is a very easy thing to do when you're white
Why do American characters have to represent African or Asian people? It is exactly this kind of cultural imperialism which destroys the possibility to create our own identity.
I could continue like that forever, because there is always somebody not happy. And of course they do exist, but Wonder Women does already for 75 years. So again you promote rather have nothing than anything, because somebody does not feel represented as well. So everybody or nobody it is.
Sorry to hear that.
... My mom got me my first comics because she grew up, before Wonder Woman, with Batgil. And Batgirl was pretty awesome.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Just as not caring about the representation of women and how it happens is a very easy thing to do when you're a man.
I'm a white man and it seems like the option here was either to have WW be the representative for the next few months for women everywhere or protest and have no representation for any minorities or women at all.
Because America is a melting pot that has people of all colors as it's citizens. So why are all the iconic and well know superheroes white? It is white imperialism, not the other way around.
Not just white. White men. Wonder Woman is the only exception.
Personal problem, I don't have a lot of respect for female superheroes that a knock-off of popular male counterparts. For me, it literally says women cannot be strong on their own, they have get their ideas and strength from a man.
Wonder Woman at least had that going for her- she was her own character.
balladofwindfishes
Member
America's identity is the mixture of all the other identities.
That all sounds really nice, Zen. Now explain to me why the white skin color is always the default for "representing all women regardless of skin color."
You bet I'm transfixed on the color of her skin. Growing up as a black kid, it didn't take me long to realize most of the characters I watched on TV were white. When I was 8, I used to wish I could be white like those people. I look back on those moments with a certain amount of shame, but some people carry those feelings into adulthood.
If we lived in a world where diversity wasn't a problem, I would have zero problem with this, but that's not the world we live in.
Well because of the Comic Code, there were a lot of very diverse characters, but after the Senate hearing and the Comic Code a racist named Charles F. Murphy took over supervision of publication and censorship and demanded that colored and minority characters were to be removed. Some artists and publicists tried to fight back, but ultimately either went out of business or into the underground comic scene.
By the time the Comic Code was abolished, people where not used to minorities in comics anymore and a lot of publishers were actually afraid to star the front page, because comics became a "white" medium. Characters like Wonder Women only survived, because they were not as "interesting" anymore as they used to be, but the comic industry in the US took a long time to reinvent diversity.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Isnt part of the problem that WW fits the bill as another icon that primarily represents white people? Why would WW being the ambassador represent minorities?
My take away, too.
Thank you for the information.
Knowing the actual history of why women and minorities got the shaft in comic representation because America was dominated by white male racist make it worse. Using the law to literally suppress representation of women and minorities. Gross. So much for the myth of the land of freedom and equality.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
In this case specifically? Because they wanted a fictional character that represented women and was well known, and Wonder Woman fits that bill. There is no black female comic book character with the name recognition of WW.
You're acting like WW being an ambassador means that you can never have what you want. Shes not some permanent member that is taking a seat black people can never have. She's a fictional character who gets rotated out. But you see it as a win that she isn't anymore because she didn't fill the exact criteria you want her to, despite the fact that she can very well do for women what you would want your character to do for black people. I understand your position, but it's petty as shit to want something taken away from another group of under represented people just because the pick doesn't represent you. It's not like this was another fictional white man getting recognition.
You're essentially saying "Yeah, this situation represented a group of under represented people, but it wasn't the group of under represented people I want it to represent so I'm glad it's not happening anymore."
If this story was about a black character not getting to be a UN Ambassador and an Asian person came in here saying "Good, Asians get even less representation in things like this in America. It should have been an Asian person in the first place." would you be in here sticking up for that person and agreeing that your black representation should go away because a bunch of people feel like it wasn't representing the right group of under represented people?
While she obviously represents white people, she also represents women, who themselves are under represented. Focusing solely on her being white and not recognizing what she can do as a representative for women is the definition of not being able to see the forest through the trees.
She won't represent minorites, except of course for minority women who connect with her because of her gender. I said that because people complaining about it are acting like the UN is going to throw in some quick replacement that represents them.
So it was either women get represented by a female icon for a few months or no one gets anything. Seems pretty damn clear of which one was the more beneficial choice.
While that's always been a problem (and we do have plenty of examples of female iterations eventually SURPASSING their male counterparts, like Captain Marvel), there was still quite a bit of them out there at this point.
Electra Woman and Dyna Gal for life!
Fantastic Four had Invisible Woman as a founding member and I know it had a TV presence way back when.
But you are right. There were (and remain) few original, non-derivative superheroines. But I think the concept as grown on me over time as the women were written more and more independently of their male counterparts.
The 70s comic scene in particular was giving us a ton of unique female characters - Starfire, Raven, Black Canary, Big Barda, Storm, Rogue, Black Cat, Scarlet Witch, etc.
Shame they didn't get a big media push until much later.
You could continue like that forever because you want to be pedantic and obtuse.
Black Panther or Luke Cage can be just as important to a black kid in in Africa as a black kid from anywhere else.
Everybody or nobody? I wish I could find find that picture with two jars, where one is filled with marbles (or something) and the other one is mostly empty. A few marbles are taken out of the full jar and put in the other one.
That's everybody or nobody to you? Is anyone asking that all of the numerous white characters across media be taken away to make room for minority characters? Or do people just want some diversity in a sea of white ?
When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like opression. Thats quickly becoming one of my favorite quotes for how true it is.
ScatheZombie
Member
The idea that a fictional character that moves less than 30k units of their own media and whose creation and continued existence is mostly derived from sexualization of her body and a deep-seated bondage fetish being a fake representative of an institution most people forget exists half the time would somehow 'empower' people who share said character's gender is fucking laughable to begin with.
Here's a fun exercise, without looking it up, name a current Honorary UN Ambassador.
Double points if you accidentally name a "Messenger of Peace" rather than an Honorary Ambassador.
Triple points if you knew those were two difference things in the first place.
Here's a fun exercise, without looking it up, name a current Honorary UN Ambassador.
Double points if you accidentally name a "Messenger of Peace" rather than an Honorary Ambassador.
Triple points if you knew those were two difference things in the first place.
What do you mean? Aren't animal sidekicks standard in disney movies? Mulan or Pocahontas stayed human throghout their movies.
They got a big media push? Come on. Call me when they get a solo movie.
This debate often feels like a husband and wife arguing and the wife says, you are not listening to me, why won't you listen to my feelings and the husband is like what are you even saying, you sound crazy.
I suppose it's all about checks and balances, it's hard to force an argument when the other person doesn't completely understand what you are saying so each has to find a middle ground which is why I feel DC shouldn't back down from this or see it as a negative. They should engage in this discussion because it's actually quite important
I suppose it's all about checks and balances, it's hard to force an argument when the other person doesn't completely understand what you are saying so each has to find a middle ground which is why I feel DC shouldn't back down from this or see it as a negative. They should engage in this discussion because it's actually quite important
I'm not talking about animal side kicks. I'm talking about when they want to make a princess story about some ethnic place outside America, the default is to make them animals. There's a history there actually and you have to research it to get it. It's until recently that there has been bold moves with Lilo and stitch, big hero six, moana etc that they have began to tackle it head on
Comic readers can disagree all they want, but women in comics have historically been represented as big titties and asses and nothing more really.
Obviously there are exceptions. And you can even say that men are represented as big pecs and bulges, but when's the last time men got together to protest that?
Wonder Woman may have some awesome storylines through out the ages, but to the majority of people on this planet (who do not read comics) they just see some white lady with big boobs, wearing an american flag one piece bathing suit.
Obviously there are exceptions. And you can even say that men are represented as big pecs and bulges, but when's the last time men got together to protest that?
Wonder Woman may have some awesome storylines through out the ages, but to the majority of people on this planet (who do not read comics) they just see some white lady with big boobs, wearing an american flag one piece bathing suit.
lightskintwin
Banned
Well Disney did find a way to make two movies set in Africa with no Black people. LOL
While that's always been a problem (and we do have plenty of examples of female iterations eventually SURPASSING their male counterparts, like Captain Marvel), there was still quite a bit of them out there at this point.
Electra Woman and Dyna Gal for life!
Fantastic Four had Invisible Woman as a founding member and I know it had a TV presence way back when.
But you are right. There were (and remain) few original, non-derivative superheroines. But I think the concept as grown on me over time as the women were written more and more independently of their male counterparts.
The 70s comic scene in particular was giving us a ton of unique female characters - Starfire, Raven, Black Canary, Big Barda, Storm, Rogue, Black Cat, Scarlet Witch, etc.
Shame they didn't get a big media push until much later.
Thing is I couldn't afford to buy comics until well into my teens. So for me, and plenty of other kids I knew- our superhero and fantasy came from TV. I never saw Electra Woman and Dyna Gal or knew they existed in the time of just ABS, CBS, NBC, and PBS. Invisible women was weak- everyone had a combat power but her.
I didn't get some "good" females heroes until the mid 80's with GI Joe (Scarelet, Lady Jay, and The Baroness). I know allot of people like She-ra, but she was a knock off hand had some of the same girly tropes Wonder Women had.
Wasn't till the early late eightes I bought comics. X-men, New Mutants, and Excaliber were wonderful because of a) how many females and b) tried to make characters more worldly by being from different countries. Didn't get into DC other than Batman because TV taught me DC was just all about male super heroes.
Wasn't until the late 90's/early 00's in adulthood that BTAS and JLAS got me into DC. Like I said earlier, the "new" Wonder Women blew me away. Where was that character all my life?
But what's wrong with Wonder Woman then? How does she prevent representation of black women?
This "better nothing than something nonperfect" mentality is really weird. Especially if people can't even agree what a perfect solution would be.
lightskintwin
Banned
This is a strawman argument and yet I keep seeing this return as if it was Black vs White issue.
I didn't make it one.
What's Moon Girl got to do with FFXV?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
It's not a strawman if there is literally someone in here claiming that WW was a bad choice because she's white.
I actually provided an alternative that's practical. Make her ethnically ambiguous
Keep in mind that the goal isn't to remove white characters but to put wonder woman in a position of responsibility when speaking to an international audience. Making her ethnically ambiguous shifts the narrative away from the White American man power fantasy
Diversity could be solved by having multiple female super heroes representing women at the same time. Sadly, outside of Storm, I can't think any non-white female characters that the majority of the world would know.
Maybe in another 50-100 years media will catch up.
lightskintwin
Banned
Yeah, but I do think some of ya'll focusing too much on the White part instead of the overall character and what it represents.
This idealized American White woman with coke bottle shape and "scantily clad" uniform that's supposed to represent every Woman. At least I think that's how the people who opposed her honorary ambassador status viewed her.
An alien from another solar system wouldn't realistically look anything like a human. The thing about Superman is that he is an alien that was raised as an average American from a small town so he has to look like his parents otherwise his cover would be blown. He has to pass as whatever ethnicity his parents are.
"Movies" aren't the only form of media.
TV often reaches more people than films do. And how are female heroines doing on that front?
Female heroes have never had a stronger presence in TV. There are more female-led books on the market than there has ever been before (and if you're not buying Squirrel Girl or Ms. Marvel, you're really missing out). There are more female writers, artists, and creators employed in the comic industry than ever before, and female-led comics have rarely been stronger.
They're more represented in cartoons than ever. They've got more toys alongside the "big boys" than any period prior. More merchandise is available than I've ever seen in my time on earth. More women are attending comic cons than ever before. They have stronger representation in games than before.
And while, yes, Hollywood has dragged its feet with a solo movie, women in the films have seen greater representation than any period in comic book history, ever.
... And don't get me wrong, I'm at the forefront of asking Marvel and DC for more women in leading roles, and to their credit they promised they ARE coming. And that's only going to be a good thing moving forward.
Whoever said that needs to retract that statement. I don't like this narrative where people feel that the complaint is "white is bad" which is racist itself and unacceptable. The point isn't to remove white characters but to take responsibility for the content being put out there. Wonder Woman isn't Irish, nor Greek, nor German, she is from a fantasy advanced civilization of women. Why is she white?? This also goes for games where the default ethnicity is white.
If Aliens came to the earth, the first people they will speak to is white people? The subtle message in that train of thought isn't a positive one if you aren't white so it's important we show empathy when these questions are raises
Does Wonder Woman even have an all-time classic storyline like Superman or Batman?
Stop with this nonsense about me wanting something taken from an under-represented group or me seeing it as 'a win'.
No one is asking WW be replaced with a dude. White females are VASTLY more represented than women of other color. In the history of female characters in a leading role in CMB movies, for example, Catwoman and Storm are the only non-white ones I can think of off the top of my head, both played by Halleberry.
We're seeing a big push for gender diversity in CBM right now and who are in front? Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, Captain Marvel, Mera, The Wasp. I'm excited to see all these characters on-screen, but there's no reason why the push for gender diversity has to be so white, or all white in this case, just like there's no reason Antman and Strange had to be more white superdudes. If I can have a problem with that, then I should be able to have a problem with a similar problem in female representation.
So either it's a white woman or nobody gets anything? Okay.
If it was a black or asian or latina woman, no one would have a problem, but because it' s yet another white woman, as it usually always in when pushing gender diversity, that's why this became an issue. This black vs Asian thing you came up with doesn't need to exist.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Which in itself is a problem. The UN picked her because of her fictional actions and ideals. And how those actions and ideals provide influence and a positive role model for women (And frankly anyone willing to listen).
She's not supposed to represent women because of how she looks, she's supposed to represent women because of how she acts. Yet, once again, a woman is reduced to her looks and her mind and what she represents are completely ignored.
I still don't see how making him ethnically ambiguous blows his cover has a kid raised on a farm. Are we saying that other ethnic folks can't be raised on a farm?
Does Thor? Green Lantern? The Flash? Aquaman? Black Panther? Ant-Man (that doesn't involve hitting his wife)?
I mean, I've read plenty of comics I've enjoyed, but outside of probably Batman, Superman, Wolverine, Spider-man, and Daredevil, I struggle mightily to think of any "all-time classic storylines" for even the heroes I really like that have unanimous approval.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Most of those characters have iconic storylines. Maybe not iconic to people who don't read comics, but that's a pretty unfair group of people to pull from.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
She doesn't have an equivalent to All Star Superman or Dark Knight Returns but since her reboot in the mid 80s, she's had plenty of great runs from writers like Rucka, Pérez, Azzarello and Simone. Her titles have been excellent in the last few months with The Legend of Wonder Woman being a classic in the making imho.
Her main issue in terms of relevance compared to Batman and Superman is that she doesn't have a movie presence yet. I'm crossing my fingers for next year's movie to be great even though I don't have much hope.
lightskintwin
Banned
Not that I don't agree, but you're also arguing this in a vacuum, and not in a context where White people are overrepresented in media and are constantly used as the default or the universal for everybody else. Where Eurocentric beauty standards have been made into universal beauty standards and have affected every other women of color. Where the idealized female body shape and "scantily clad" uniforms has been determined and created by Men and perpetuated through our media. Where American exceptionalism was at the heart of creation of these characters, perpetuating the American monomyth, and whose values these characters share are in direct conflict of not only America's history, but our foreign policy.
lightskintwin
Banned
Without any specific data, it's hard to determine liberalism had a huge part in it, especially if the majority that oppose it where from the international community.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Frankly it doesn't matter what these characters were created to represent, it's what they evolved into representing. Especially in a medium like comic books that has been consistently fluid and changing thematically for decades.
And I fail to see how modern Wonder Woman currently represents any of what you have laid out here. If we were to continuously judge a character based on their inception someone like Batman would be a considered a gun toting murderer.
Men get movies and TV shows, women get TV shows.
That's because historically female representation in comics (and the comic industry) has been unbelievably bad. The same is true for movies.
The argument was that these characters were getting a big push. They're not. There's no Storm solo movie, she's not front and center of the Marvel universe, I'm not even sure she still has a solo series. How many of the characters you explicitly mentioned have a solo series running anyway?
The only characters that come to mind are Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, who are at least getting solo movies. Maybe Harley Quinn, given how extremely popular and successful the character is. I know the comic book industry is trying to reach out to female audiences, so if you were trying to say that in *general* there was a big push to get women into comics I might agree.
entremet
Member
I can't see conservatives anywhere caring about this to any extent. But you're right, it's conjecture on my part.
But it smells to me like classic good intentions gone wrong for greater ideological purity.
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