Bruce Springsteen
Member
agreed, which is why this character shouldn't be put on a pedestal for women
Super model white women shouldn't be the image of empowering women
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Wonder Woman removed as 'honorary ambassador' for UN after protests
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
- Status
agreed, which is why this character shouldn't be put on a pedestal for women
Super model white women shouldn't be the image of empowering women
To say nothing of her distasteful nationalism.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
are you accusing the UN of being too PC?
Kayo Police
Member
Just make Miku Hatsune the new ambassador.
Or it attracts people that usually wouldn't be aware of it. The potential benefits imo outweigh the potential downsides (which apparently is just that it might be taken as movie PR)
And again, it's not a either-or situation regarding highlighting a real woman.
Don't think there's much more to add to that.
yanipheonu
Member
"The Blob creates an unrealistic image for children who cannot hope to have that body shape and should be removed. "
This is actually kind of fun.
This implies a level of moral high ground I can't possibly sign off on. What "should" it be then?
As if white models can't be empowered?
agreed, which is why this character shouldn't be put on a pedestal for women
Super model white women shouldn't be the image of empowering women
She can be a model for Western audiences but when we are dealing with the Earth, she definitely doesn't make a strong case for why, especially when it begins to collide with colonial history of some countries
Zen_Arcade
Banned
That's not a false equivalence. What Wonder Woman represents IS DICTATED by who Wonder Woman is. Not being educated on who she is as a character means that the person doesnt really know what she represents. At least not fully. Otherwise what she represents to a person is based solely on appearance.
That's not a very good example. Most women in video games are damsels in distress or solely eye candy. It's also a decades long pattern of how women are represented in the medium. It makes sense to criticise that. Hell, it makes sense to criticise comics on the whole for the same things.
Wonder Woman is one of the only female characters in comics where she's transcended her appearance and gets acknowledged as a strong, powerful, morally right character. And when that happens people still get hung up on how she looks.
Fancyarcher
Member
This whole thing just sounds utterly ridiculous. WW is a great fictional honorary ambassador, but most importantly she's still a fictional character. Removing her just sounds silly.
The kick back is expected. Honestly, there's so many ways we can actually think positively about ways to address the discussion. The easy thing to do is to would be to give up and become cynical about everything
lightskintwin
Banned
Yes as communicated through a visual medium as comics. You act as if the American iconography alone isn't enough for people to have issue with her.
lightskintwin
Banned
Yes, it's the anti white agenda with no context whatsoever.
Well, obviously, you can't be prejudiced against white people. D'uh.
Now if they made NUBIA an honorary member...
Totally different.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Considering that it's the United Nations, no I don't. Each country sends representatives for their country, they hang flags outside for every country, I don't see why a character wearing the colors of a flag is suddenly a bad thing in a place that unites nations. That place already has plenty of nationalistic iconography for every nation on Earth. The whole point of it is to acknowledge that while we are broken up into nations, that we should be united. That's why WW was picked in the first place. She's a character with obvious ties to America that does her best to fight to the safety and peace of the entire world.
And comics are as much a narriative medium as they are a visual one. Simply calling it a visual medium is under selling it as an art form.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
you really think that's the point here in all this?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I think it's part of it definitely. It's an issue of a character being shunned simply because of her appearance and what people believe it represents when the narrative aspect of the medium shows far more layers and detail that shows that WW is a great character to pick for an organization meant to unite nations.
Ah yes. Let's go with the icon with less clothes.
Since we're on the subject of mutants though, Storm FTW!
I find the defensive stance sad and unfortunate but I acknowledge that it's important to be defensive before actually listening to what the complain is actually about. Anyone who is married will understand this
So comics represent women poorly. That some pin up girl drawing was later imbued with intelligence makes little difference to the fact that she is a male fantasy. It's turd polishing that comic fans are apparently happy to do because women are portrayed so poorly in the medium.
MisterHero
Super Member
They should reinstate Wondy but this time wearing diplomatic robes (see Kingdom Come ending).
How about a woman in a business suit
or a tennis player
maybe a gardener
or an engineer
why arent there portrayals of women like this in popular media
maybe youre a dude and it doesnt matter to you
just because something doesnt affect you doesnt mean it doesnt matter
This is so stupid. Hot white women are literally all you ever see. Any type of woman who isnt white with big tits are afterthoughts in almost every single form of popular media.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Some peoples spectrum of human forms goes from super model right to blob with no stop for any other human in between.
The implication of that actual poster seemed to be any drawing of a human would offend the PC police. Where's the strawman?
Not since the cross comic Onslaught story arc. I'll see myself out.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Considering most of the women of the world are various shades of brown who have suffered under white imperialism in the recent memory, it is not a racist reaction, it's a cultural one. Surprise, not everyone thinks the white western ideal of women is the best in the world.
You do realize women in the world suffer image problem because they don't match the white ideal. Eye surgery, breast implants, rib removal, hair straighten, skin bleaching, compulsive dieting, etc. are a result of accept beauty standard in an effort to be as white as possible. Even the preference of breasts over hips is a western thing.
Comics are a visual medium. Doesn't mean that they cannot have deep narrative meaning. But visual, when one looks at Wonder Women with no story context- she is an American warrior drawn the way men idolize females to look.
I applaud your resilience for continuing. I actually never realised how hard it is to get people to understand and empathise with plight of others. I usually thought people just always sought to complain about everything until I actually tasted the medicine
I am male and it does matter to me. My post was showing that regardless of the character they chose it would upset someone. I don't think it's possible to represent all women with just one character.
Woman Woman, regardless of how writers have changed her backstory and how she is portrayed doesn't change the fact that she was designed to titillate and many people can't see behind that.
Blast it, internet. I guess I really do have to put "sarcasm" in my posts when being sarcastic. I never translate they well via text.
It's ok boss, I have been there too. I wasn't actually bashing you, just acknowledging that it's usually the cycle these types of discussion tend to go
Byakuya769
Member
Why do this?
Just_myles
Member
Yeah, I never liked the idea of using fictional characters for this kind of thing. Just like the captain america thing in brooklyn. Seems weird. We can only aspire to the ideal but, not the person or their feats.
I don't think it's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing for the most part. It's an idea isn't it and idea are often our manufactured vision of what we dream of and we all want equality and justice and peace and all the good things. Of course we can use real people but the difference between using a real person and a fictional character is that when a person dies, their legacy may die with them unless someone else picks up their life's work. Compared to a fictional character which is timeless and quite often a fictional character can become an amalgamation of ideas real people have left behind. People underestimate the reach these things have but kids around the world hold unto these things, kids in slums of Rio, Manilla, Aleppo, Soweto
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
'Cause that's Wonder Woman.
FallingEdge
Member
agreed, which is why this character shouldn't be put on a pedestal for women
Super model white women shouldn't be the image of empowering women
Haven't seen any super models built like her.
You do realize that this is ancient Greek armor, it looked like this for males.
The artists actually did their research. But of course they should change that and the cultural background for Wonder Woman because somehow this is wrong now.
All you people who are posting Greek and Roman male ideals of beauty just don't get it. What was the status of women in those societies?
- Women could not vote or hold office.
- Women could not do any business transactions without the approval of a male guardian whom they had for life, from father, brother, uncles, husband and state appointed one cause, cause women were not equal. They belonged to men their entire lives
- Man commits adultery, might have to pay a few gold for forgiveness. Women- beaten, maimed or killed.
- Women did not have a voice in government. That men domain.
- Women were often keep prisoner inside their home, because the were chattel for men. They could not be trusted.
- Women were not worthy of education beyond that necessary for household.
Sparta was the exception to the rule, where women were taught to fight to defend themselves and to be hard on their male children. Greek culture is famous for looking down on Persians because of their effeminate culture, dressing like women, and educated their women.
Naked male bodies were for the benefit of males in both Greek and Roman. Males prized keeping fit, oiling their bodies, and sharing naked time while they bathed together talking philosophy. "This democracy free thing is great for us." Not so much for poor men, slaves and women who made up the majority of the societies.
Even in the modern world- women are still killed for same things- showing skin, have relationships, not obeying their men. Male nakedness does not have the negative connotations and drastic punishments that women immodesty does because MEN MADE THE RULES. There is nothing equal when one gender has set all the rules for how humanity is suppose to function through violence and control.
It is not women who made the rules of what the perfect male superhero look like- men did. Women were not asked their ideal women super heroine looked like- men decided that for us in in a supposed equal progressive society.
Well you know what, as a women, most scantily clad female characters are not appealing to me because artists focus too much on making them sexy for male audiences. Not every female character is Emma Frost who embraces their sexiness. For me a good character is Kitty Pride.
In the same token, the majority of male superheroes are drawn ridiculously too. Being fit and trim is nice- but it is not sexy unto itself. It was absolutely funny here on GAf that many guys did not understand why women swoon over say Tom Hiddleson or Benidict Cumberpatch cause men defined them as butterface.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Wonder Woman shouldn't be an Honorary Ambassador because Batman v Superman was a terrible movie. The upcoming Wonder Woman movie might redeem her, but I doubt it.
Maybe go back in time a couple years and give it to her, and I'd be okay with it. Or wait until the new movie comes out and then reconsider the situation. Basically, this is the worst time to give it to her, and the only reason they're doing it now is explicitly because she was in BvS, which is really terrible.
Maybe go back in time a couple years and give it to her, and I'd be okay with it. Or wait until the new movie comes out and then reconsider the situation. Basically, this is the worst time to give it to her, and the only reason they're doing it now is explicitly because she was in BvS, which is really terrible.
Thanks. It's hard.
GAF is billed as a liberal place. But in reality, it is mostly for young "liberal" men. It is still filled with uneducated misunderstandings, to outright derogatory ideas about women. It's like women are a foreign species oppose to being part of humanity. And this is one of the safe places on the internet because of moderation. THIS is the best we have to offer in western society to women.
Even most minorities on GAF don't get it. When the talk about minority issues, if you dig enough, they really only care about MALE minority issues. It hardly mentioned the double whammy one gets in society for being a minority and a female.
All I can do is offer an opinion and experience on a board where some people might actually listen to learn.
Spike Spiegel
Member
Sarcastic Poster
Member
I agree, we need a counterpoint to all those male gardener portrayals we see everywhere.
John Kowalski
Banned
Thanks. It's hard.
GAF is billed as a liberal place. But in reality, it is mostly for young "liberal" men. It is still filled with uneducated misunderstandings, to outright derogatory ideas about women. It's like women are a foreign species oppose to being part of humanity. And this is one of the safe places on the internet because of moderation. THIS is the best we have to offer in western society to women.
Even most minorities on GAF don't get it. When the talk about minority issues, if you dig enough, they really only care about MALE minority issues. It hardly mentioned the double whammy one gets in society for being a minority and a female.
All I can do is offer an opinion and experience on a board where some people might actually listen to learn.
To add to the pessimistic tone, i am consistently reminded of how some posters have strong, enviable understandings of racism but seem to be completely out of their field when it comes to feminist concerns, often even lacking the tact to realize how off the mark they're being, and more often still displaying the same disbelief and angered exhaustion that plague poor discussions on race and culture conflicts.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
it's not, AT ALL, there are bigger issues than "respecting the comic book art"at hand here
Wonder Women is listed at 5'11", that's super model height, unless you think the average women in 5'11" with legs for miles
- Status