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[Macrotus]

Yeah, switching specs is a bit of a pain in the ass. You can get two specs to weapon level 35 only a couple days slower than focusing one there but after that you pretty much have to commit as the costs don't raise exponentially any more. They're making some changes to acquiring legendaries in the next patch, but they're a halfway measure at best. But then again, if you're raiding normals or heroics, it doesn't really matter that much. If you focus on getting good, you can outplay facerollers in the lower difficulties even if they should do more DPS based on their gear and class.

Thanks for the input.
I've read about the gear tokens, like the ones in Diablo 3 where you can aim for a specific slot.
I'm curious of how they're obtained.

I'm also watching videos of good players and trying to learn from them, trying to get use to (learn) playing my class like you said, since they changed a lot since previous expansions.
And since I'm already doing a bit of research, I guess I'm leaning towards buying the expansion...

 

[Einchy]

0% Wipe on Krosus DKLHJDLKHF:LSDFJ:LKDJF



Should get it next week.

Someone didn't rune.

Someone didn't double pot.

 

[mclem]

Speaking of Krosus, what are various peoples' fourth boss for Heroic? In Normal we went Krosus -> Aluriel -> Tichondrius -> Etraeus -> Tel'Arn , but in heroic we're not certain we've quite got the throughput for Krosus yet (possibly if no-one dies, but even then it'd be touch-and-go) and Aluriel's new add mechanics are proving nontrivial. Is there another direction it's worth looking at? I'm musing on Tich a bit.

 

[RoninChaos]

S+ Bear
A+ BRM/pally
B Warrior
C- DK/DH

SSS - Bear
A - Brewmaster, Pally
B - Warrior
C+ - DK
lel - DH

God damnit.

Thanks.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

I think the gathering bots are back in full swing. Prices are dropping

 

[Lomax]

I think the gathering bots are back in full swing. Prices are dropping

Or, you know, the initial demand spike caused by the Nighthold release has just subsided and prices are naturally declining.

 

[cartographer]

I think the gathering bots are back in full swing. Prices are dropping

I've seen more bots in person the past week or so than directly after the ban. Anecdotal, but at least some are working their way back in. Not nearly as bad as it was though. There was a few spots in Stormheim where you could stand and be guaranteed to see at least a few bots pass by in a few minutes.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Wow the Nighthold World quest this week is killing Elisande's male prostitute harem. Rude.

 

[Ashodin]

Finally did new Karazhan. Man that dungeon is WAY so much better now

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Wow the Nighthold World quest this week is killing Elisande's male prostitute harem. Rude.

Opposite of illidans harem

 

[DalikSkywing]

Just got my 4th leg on my Paladin from an emissary chest and obviously it's one of the most useless.

At least it wasn't Sephuz. I could use the gloves in place of Aggramar's Stride.
Hoping for the belt, the ring or the shoulders is asking too much I guess.

Oh, Italian client. I'm prot paladin myself with almost 600 m plus and still only 4 legendaries, neither one of them is in the top 4 of my spec. This expansion feels really bad.
I'm only playing because of my guild and because at least we are doing some mythic NH.

 

[Einchy]

Got mythic Botanist down on our last pull tonight.

I guess Spellblade is next.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Well my warrior has 4pc now. Mostly need Draught and CoF. Better legendary or two would also help, as I can only actually use one right now without breaking the 4-set.

Few other off-pieces pieces would be nice though too, even just out of normal Nighthold, and I'd probably be breaking 885 ilvl or something.

Dunno if/when we'll bump alt runs of Nighthold to heroic or allow my alt to come for heroic farm. There's still one or two things out of H NH that could be nice on my DH.

But alts I never feel as comfortable on. Was saying that like the first 80-90% of class knowledge/skill comes fairly easily, but you really have to push for that 10-20%. That's where things like reviewing and cross-examining logs, sheer hours of play/practice, etc. really start to make a difference. It's a lot of extra effort for more minimal gains at the higher echelons of play.

 

[Milennia]

k ill be raiding with <easy> on Aerie peak for the rest of the expansion

god damn my determination

 

[BreezyLimbo]

k ill be raiding with <easy> on Aerie peak for the rest of the expansion

god damn my determination

you left sargeras? noooo now I can't tell my guild I know a pro

 

[Anbokr]

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/stormreaver/Anbhogo

when your guild doesn't have any other plate dps

 

[Milennia]

you left sargeras? noooo now I can't tell my guild I know a pro

im on one of the deadest servers now rip, i loved sargeras.

 

[jaundicejuice]

I hope they plan on adding level scaling to legacy content because it's a pain in the ass to level in this game. It's not worthwhile to spam the dungeon queue once you've exhausted a given dungeons available quests because you net so little exp without them. Questing and fighting trash in level relevant PVE is more worthwhile but you have to constantly skip ahead through zones and expansions without ever finishing one to keep the exp gains up.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I'm curious as to how/why many of the very top (US at least) guilds have ended up/stayed on small servers. Instances where it's like a top 50 US guild, and then mayybbee like a top 500 guild at best bringing up second. With perhaps a handful of others in Mythic, and then the rest of the server being stuck in heroic or lower.

Given high enough progression you can attract talent to any server given a specific guild, but yeah. Not being on a high-pop would just be weird to me at this point.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm curious as to how/why many of the very top (US at least) guilds have ended up/stayed on small servers. Instances where it's like a top 50 US guild, and then mayybbee like a top 500 guild at best bringing up second. With perhaps a handful of others in Mythic, and then the rest of the server being stuck in heroic or lower.

Given high enough progression you can attract talent to any server given a specific guild, but yeah. Not being on a high-pop would just be weird to me at this point.

I suppose for the server first achievements?

 

[Anbokr]

I suppose for the server first achievements?

yeah probably this and better player retention

recruitment could suffer but turnover will probably be lower.

 

[Nere]

So Artifact Knowledge 50 will be 55200000% wtf is wrong with blizzard?

 

[Einchy]

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/stormreaver/Anbhogo


when your guild doesn't have any other plate dps

Why no CoS ring? &#129300;

 

[B-Dubs]

yeah probably this and better player retention

recruitment could suffer but turnover will probably be lower.

Yea, smaller servers won't have as much poaching.

 

[AlimNassor]

Are there still 30 day trials? If I already had a 15 can I still use a 30 day?

 

[vocab]

Why no CoS ring? &#129300;

Rng is a bitch.

 

[vocab]

I'm curious as to how/why many of the very top (US at least) guilds have ended up/stayed on small servers. Instances where it's like a top 50 US guild, and then mayybbee like a top 500 guild at best bringing up second. With perhaps a handful of others in Mythic, and then the rest of the server being stuck in heroic or lower.

Given high enough progression you can attract talent to any server given a specific guild, but yeah. Not being on a high-pop would just be weird to me at this point.

My guilds decision to go low pop is to avoid server fuck ups from destroying raid times. This was during wod though when shit got out of hand. The only thing I dislike about low pop is that server economy is kinda shit.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

My guilds decision to go low pop is to avoid server fuck ups from destroying raid times. This was during wod though when shit got out of hand.

I don't think that's ever really been a legitimate reason though, unless you're pushing world firsts, and even then I think it makes more sense to go to a medium-pop at the lowest. Otherwise just sourcing consumables and such becomes a bitch.

 

[Dog Problems]

I thought Blizzard changed it to where legs are shown under robes now for all races but they are still invisible for goblins.

Also, Wowhead has gotten really bad lately. Navigating is a pain in the ass and uBlock Origin shows that there is so much crap trying to load in the background.

 

[Anbokr]

Why no CoS ring? &#65533;&#65533;

My best CoS ring is 865, so the 895 bot ring sims better by a bit on ST (and will also be better on AoE). One day I'll get an 875+ version of the CoS ring though .

 

[vocab]

I don't think that's ever really been a legitimate reason though, unless you're pushing world firsts, and even then I think it makes more sense to go to a medium-pop at the lowest. Otherwise just sourcing consumables and such becomes a bitch.

well they couldnt raid on tuesday when a new raid came out. Server firsts are nice, but so is playing the game. Legion mats at the beginning were rough, now with bloods its a joke. Theres negatives like mythic sales are basically impossible, and economy. enchants are too expensive. Everything else is okay or slightly higher than average.

 

[Angry Grimace]

At AK50 you get 55,200,100% increased AP gains!

(Note: the last point of the "infinite" trait costs 200 Trillion AP)

So Artifact Knowledge 50 will be 55200000% wtf is wrong with blizzard?

They really really really don't want to admit the mechanic is stupid.

 

[Metroidvania]

At AK50 you get 55,200,100% increased AP gains!

(Note: the last point of the "infinite" trait costs 200 Trillion AP)

They really really really don't want to admit the mechanic is stupid.

So, quick napkin math (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, doing this between taking notes in class) that turns an 'average' daily heroic reward into, what, 220 million or so (100k divided by 249, then multiply by 552,001?

So.....around 900,000 dailies for that last level?

 

[Angry Grimace]

So, quick napkin math (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, doing this between taking notes in class) that turns an 'average' daily heroic reward into, what, 220 million or so (100k divided by 249, then multiply by 552,001?

So.....around 900,000 dailies for that last level?

Yes.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

(Note: the last point of the "infinite" trait costs 200 Trillion AP)

W...why? Why do they keep doubling down on these terrible ideas?

 

[Metroidvania]

Yes.

Lol, and most of the world quest AP rewards are significantly less than that 100k.....

Unless the amount gained from the consistent raiding (and new weekly mythic chest) increase a lot, Blizz must REALLY not want to have the hardcore raiders grinding for those last ranks, huh.

W...why? Why do they keep doubling down on these terrible ideas?

Because it keeps you playing!

Just like Radiant quests in Skyrim!

edit:

Wait, is the 200 trillion still the 'placeholder' cost, or is that after the update Blizz said they would do?

 

[v1perz53]

Why is everyone so against infinite progression? The idea is totally fine, it is the balance of it that is important. The current "infinite" trait is a proc, baseline 2000 main stat for 10 seconds, listed as 1.37 PPM. Let's use 1 PPM for simpler math, 2000 main stat (~7% main stat buff for my toon) with a 17% uptime. Currently, it would cost ~763m AP to get that to 3k main stat, and ~1,308m AP to get it to 3400. So yea, someone who literally grinds DOUBLE the AP as someone else will gain 400 main stat on a 17% uptime buff, or 1.3% more main stat 17% of the time as someone who has grinded half as much AP. This is a very minimal difference. In order to gain a ~3% increase (in a 17% uptime buff) over someone who has gotten their weapon to the 3k point, someone else would have to grind 2,904m AP, or almost 4x as much AP as someone else. (And keep in mind, I'm using numbers at 900 ilvl, so as ilvl goes up the weight of this proc goes down compared to your standard base stat total).

This infinite trait has a VERY SMALL EFFECT. If you think you are meant to grind this out and care about it, you are doing it wrong. This infinite trait is there simply so that you make small progress over time and your character gets better passively even if you get unlucky with gear, you still make progression. So that every time you do something that awards AP it still has some use. This is a GOOD thing in an MMO. The only issue to me is the exponential scaling of AK, depending on how they handle catch up mechanics with that, but that is barely an issue at all.

If anyone gets benched from a guild because they have 3% less Agi 17% of the time, that guild wasn't worth staying with. That is within margin of error for sims in terms of DPS.

edit:

Wait, is the 200 trillion still the 'placeholder' cost, or is that after the update Blizz said they would do?

As I said above, it just scales exponentially (well, somewhat exponentially). It isn't really designed to be reached, because it isn't designed to have much of an effect. And with AK scaling to like 40,000,000% increase (versus 25,000% now), items that award 125k AP now will award something like 200,000,000 AP then, so it is all relative anyway. Anyway, the difference between the last and 2nd to last points is 200 Str/Agi/Int with less than 17% uptime, so if you want to grind it you can but it is designed to be inconsequential.

 

[TheYanger]

OR

they could just not put that trait in, because the people they're targetting with traits like that aren't casuals (who will never get it anyway) but are EXACTLY the people that will kill themselves to get it, which is stupid as fuck.

The grindy ass end of trait line traits don't service a single person in the wow community. There is no reason for them.

Nobody that will ever get those traits are the kind of person that wants or needs THAT carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, so something that people feel 'forced' to grind for a tangible gain are actually BAD for player retention (Burnout), rather than good.

Speaking personally, the 30-50 hours a week of raiding never got to me as a hardcore ass raider, I would do that now if I could, what makes people not want to raid like that (aside from real life obligations of course), are things like this where you're now spending that time in raid, AND 20 more outside of raid per week just to keep up with your expected power level. Split run alts, ap grinding, that's the shit that kills anyone's desire to raid hard in this game, not 'lack of things to do'

 

[v1perz53]

OR

they could just not put that trait in, because the people they're targetting with traits like that aren't casuals (who will never get it anyway) but are EXACTLY the people that will kill themselves to get it, which is stupid as fuck.

The grindy ass end of trait line traits don't service a single person in the wow community. There is no reason for them.

What? They exactly service every single casual player in the game. I myself, as well as everyone in my M+ group likes these. We like that every dungeon we do we work towards being slightly more powerful. We like that that DHT +13 we just ran gave us some more AP towards a new trait, even if nothing dropped from it. It doesn't matter how small the progression is, it is just nice to feel like you are getting something from what you do even with bad luck. Not one of us have a lv 54 weapon, we still clear a +15 each week in time easily. So each trait we get feels great, we get more powerful passively, but none of us are going out of our way to grind it. Just every so often our clear times go down, even if none of us got upgrades that week. AP and "infinite" traits is pretty much all that keeps us playing, I don't think any of us would actually enjoy doing a M+ 11,14, then 15 every week for no rewards except the 900 ilvl piece the next tuesday and 1-2 TF pieces per week.

And that is who the system is for. Anyone from casual to M+ to non hardcore raiders, people who don't stress about unlocking the full weapon. It means everything they do progresses their character, their weekly dungeons or M+ or Normal raids go a little faster. Running the same dungeons to hope for a roll of the dice gets old fast, but at the very least AP gives you something that will always benefit you and progress you forward. All of the people I talk to that don't raid are excited about this "infinite" trait, as are many raiders from my old guild (they only do up to Heroic raiding). It isn't like the ability to progress your character over time is something that is universally disliked...

The people who are killing themselves to earn 4x more AP than the person before them for a 0.3% DPS gain are simply stupid, and the game shouldn't be balanced around people with masochistic tendencies that aren't even getting useful returns from their actions.

Hell, at this point I'm sure if there was a quest that gave 1 HP for 5 hours of work, there would be people complaining that they have to run this quest non stop for the rest of their lives to be optimal...


E: With my current gear, a static 200 agi would be a 0.6% DPS increase, and this proc is MUCH less than that per point. Anyone who goes out of their way to grind twice what someone else has for 2 points of that, and complains that it takes too long honestly deserves to have a bad time. And it is a flat 200, so as gear improves the effect of 200 stat will be even smaller than it is now...

 

[TheYanger]

Honest question, what is your artifact at right now? Because people that think that it's fun to run an M+ and get a little bit towards a trait, are not the people that are running hundreds upon hundreds of them out of a need. Casual players are not remotely near 54 traits right now. Casual players are probably barely aware that it goes above 34 at this point.

Then there's the fact that you have at least one more (almost assuredly 2 more) weapons to throw AP into for your class, let alone any alts or anything else you've got.

The artifact traits could've stopped in the current patch at 40 and achieved what you are talking about here, and still saved literally hundreds of hours of grinding for the hardcore, but that's not what they went with. Doubling down on that is fucking idiotic to its core. You're not even halfway done with your artifact currently unless you're like 45 traits in. That's how skewed that shit is. If you're still hovering around there, you're arguing for a system you literally have no stake in right now. Nobody who is sitting at 30 or 40 something can even claim that the system is serving them right now because it might as well just be infinite as far as they're concerned, as long as you won't run out of things to spend AP on the grindiness of the 'endgame' of it is immaterial to you. The people who are complaining about it are the ones that actually have done it and will do ti again - It's not fun for a single person on earth.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Talking about killing yourselves

Ive been killing myself for my next legendary. Done over 50 dungeons, over 10 full raids, multiple lfrs, all the daily emissarys, among other things and nothing yet, all within the last 4 weeks.

Im pretty sure bad luck protection is broken. Ive even ignored my alts to focus on my mage.

 

[TheYanger]

For the record, nobody is advocating removing AP or a reason to do M+ or anything like that, but Blizzz already has the weekly cache and AP in the game, you can have reasons to do dungeons WITHOUT making it a reason to 'find the most efficient dungeon and run it 200 more times".

Like, there doesn't have to be an extreme of 'nothing to do at max level' and 'play 24-7'. The game can encourage you to do dungeons WITHOUT making you do them many hundreds of fucking times.

 

[Tacitus_]

Tbh I liked it when I had "finished" my character and just logged them for raids. Then I could play alts or farm gold or transmog stuff.

 

[Anbokr]

Tbh I liked it when I had "finished" my character and just logged them for raids. Then I could play alts or farm gold or transmog stuff.

This. I enjoy playing multiple characters and multiple specs, but I just feel like I can't this xpac. I could always be getting more AP on my main, farming legs on my main, titanforged gear on my main, etc... Must say I do miss the "freedom" of past xpacs where I could switch specs on the fly and not be punished, running Arms for cleave encounters and Fury for ST. Keeps the game fresh for me too.

I honestly like the titanforge concept and I can live with legendaries -- but AP just serves to restrict my options, not enhance my spec imo. It's just a reincarnated old WoW passive tree, except that had a stopping point. If they want that smooth progression feel, there should still be an end point, a finish line. Paragon points are the fucking worst thing about diablo for christ's sake, and the community has made that known for over a year now but they won't touch that system either.

I did enjoy AP before the infinite traits, it's just those that I take issue with. Your "grind" per say should be off specs not an infinite main spec progression.

 

[Fjordson]

Starting playing my DK again and went Frost. It's fast paced and looks cool, but damn I have no clue what I'm doing lol.

Tbh I liked it when I had "finished" my character and just logged them for raids. Then I could play alts or farm gold or transmog stuff.

Agreed.

Not a deal breaker or anything for me, but infinite progression is weird imo.

 

[TheYanger]

The worst part of course is that you're FORCED to engage with that part of the game. You can't just naturally enjoy the gains in power, like if you could only get X amount of AP per week like valor, sure, but instead it's like, ok raid your hours (or pvp or whatever you enjoy), and then whether you enjoy M+ or not, run that the rest of your spare time. Or get fucked.

Like, spending 12 hours a week raiding now involves 10+ more hours a week of grinding M+ until you cap out.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Maybe just have extreme diminishing returns after a certain point per week if not an outright cap on AP? Dynamically adjusted based on how much AP you already have?

IDK.

 

[v1perz53]

Honest question, what is your artifact at right now? Because people that think that it's fun to run an M+ and get a little bit towards a trait, are not the people that are running hundreds upon hundreds of them out of a need. Casual players are not remotely near 54 traits right now. Casual players are probably barely aware that it goes above 34 at this point.

Then there's the fact that you have at least one more (almost assuredly 2 more) weapons to throw AP into for your class, let alone any alts or anything else you've got.

All of my M+ group is between 48-51 right now. The system is serving us well because every 2 weeks or so we get another trait, but we don't bother grinding it out because we don't need to. We will all be finished with our weapons well before 7.2 hits. I think you're a bit out of touch with casuals though. Casual doesn't necessarily mean "just started playing", and many casuals are AK25. At that level, doing emissaries for a week will get you to 35 in a weapon, I'm sure most people playing casually since launch are in the 40s.

But the main point is this: the current system of AP to trait 54 is awful. But we aren't talking about the current terrible system to 54, we are talking about the 7.2 version (more on that below).

The worst part of course is that you're FORCED to engage with that part of the game. You can't just naturally enjoy the gains in power, like if you could only get X amount of AP per week like valor, sure, but instead it's like, ok raid your hours (or pvp or whatever you enjoy), and then whether you enjoy M+ or not, run that the rest of your spare time. Or get fucked.

Like, spending 12 hours a week raiding now involves 10+ more hours a week of grinding M+ until you cap out.

See, this is the main point. The current system is awful, you are forced to do M+ which is why they are changing it. In the 7.2 system, if you were to run 100 M+ dungeons between raid nights, you would gain a 0.05% DPS increase (~2 traits) with the new paragon system at best. Do you feel obligated to run 100 M+ for 0.05% DPS? You certainly shouldn't. AK scales so fast specifically to DISCOURAGE people from stupid grinds to finish right away, you will get as much AP from 100 M+ maw runs as you would get from your regular normal mode raid with 2 more ranks of AK. If you feel forced to run M+ dungeons the way the system is set up on PTR currently, I don't know what to tell you, you are probably over-valuing the infinite trait. It is a functional cap, no different from an actual cap except that it doesn't make running random stuff with friends completely worthless, only mostly worthless.

Maybe just have extreme diminishing returns after a certain point per week if not an outright cap on AP? Dynamically adjusted based on how much AP you already have?

IDK.

That's basically how it works on 7.2 PTR now. If you try to grind traits past a certain point, it will take HUNDREDS of M+ runs to get one trait, for a 0.05% DPS gain. But if you wait a week and collect some AK, with how fast and high AK scales now, it will take 10 runs to get that same amount of AP. It is a functional cap, actually pretty well implemented. The main concern I have is how they work a catch up mechanism, since it punishes people who forget to research AK or who just started playing unless they address it.

 

[TheYanger]

All of my M+ group is between 48-51 right now. The system is serving us well because every 2 weeks or so we get another trait, but we don't bother grinding it out because we don't need to. We will all be finished with our weapons well before 7.2 hits. I think you're a bit out of touch with casuals though. Casual doesn't necessarily mean "just started playing", and many casuals are AK25. At that level, doing emissaries for a week will get you to 35 in a weapon, I'm sure most people playing casually since launch are in the 40s.

But the main point is this: the current system of AP to trait 54 is awful. But we aren't talking about the current terrible system to 54, we are talking about the 7.2 version (more on that below).




See, this is the main point. The current system is awful, you are forced to do M+ which is why they are changing it. In the 7.2 system, if you were to run 100 M+ dungeons between raid nights, you would gain a 0.05% DPS increase (~2 traits) with the new paragon system at best. Do you feel obligated to run 100 M+ for 0.05% DPS? You certainly shouldn't. AK scales so fast specifically to DISCOURAGE people from stupid grinds to finish right away, you will get as much AP from 100 M+ maw runs as you would get from your regular normal mode raid with 2 more ranks of AK. If you feel forced to run M+ dungeons the way the system is set up on PTR currently, I don't know what to tell you, you are probably over-valuing the infinite trait. It is a functional cap, no different from an actual cap except that it doesn't make running random stuff with friends completely worthless, only mostly worthless.



That's basically how it works on 7.2 PTR now. If you try to grind traits past a certain point, it will take HUNDREDS of M+ runs to get one trait, for a 0.05% DPS gain. But if you wait a week and collect some AK, with how fast and high AK scales now, it will take 10 runs to get that same amount of AP. It is a functional cap, actually pretty well implemented. The main concern I have is how they work a catch up mechanism, since it punishes people who forget to research AK or who just started playing unless they address it.

Sorry but you don't get to just alter the numbers involved in the conversation at will, this came up because AT THE CAP on the ptr, the last point is literally ridiculous grinding again, so are the previous points. it's EXACTLY the same as it is right now.

If that changes, fantastic, but it hasn't yet. What you're saying in this post is all bullshit until blizz adds like 10 more AK ranks on the ptr. AK is a perfect mechanism for this stuff, they even said it perfectly in their post on the matter, but their actions so far don't illustrate that being the case.

48 is barely more than halfway done, as I noted. At AK25 it's something like 200 fucking maw 10+s to get 54 right now. That's god damn absurd.

I've run more mythic dungeons in Legion in 6 months than I've run total dungeons of any sort in the previous 3 expansions combined. Out of obligation rather than desire. That's fucked.

 

[Data West]

The Warlock mount looks so fucking good. I don't know how people complained about it. Not everythign needs to be completely new. There's so many mounts in the game I'd rather have redone than a brand new look, for example